Lisabob

What I have been taught is more along the lines of what nldscout posted. (Also keep in mind that webelos can do den campouts so really we have three possibilities: family, pack, and den for webelos) As for what constitutes "family camping," our council is quite explicit that this is a whole different game than pack camping. Our council does not strongly endorse family camping and prefers packs to stick with pack camping. BTW Ang, where in MI did you end up? I'm in the area too (feel free to PM me if you want) Welcome to the north! Lisa'bob

Queenj, While you might not want to do a hike with the troop, you do have an option to invite a couple of boys and maybe the Scoutmaster or an Assistant Scoutmaster to join you on your den's hike. That way you'd get some exposure and you could also ask (in advance of course) the SM/ASM/whoever to help you plan out a good hike that would be suitable for your boys. Have fun. Lisa'bob

Or maybe you can just schedule a troop campout that weekend...at the council office... Lisa'bob

We used to have this problem with sign ups for swimming lessons at the local pool. Thankfully they went to an on-line registration process that cut out all of this silliness since waiting in line for days no longer resulted in a better position. Maybe your council can do the same, in the somewhat longer term? Lisa'bob

Our council gives free rank badges to any unit that meets a certain FOS goal but as I recall, it is a ridiculous goal so I'm really not sure whether they ever have to make good on this offer. Lisa'bob

Those who don't see that clearly with regard to interpretations of the G2SS or those who think it is hypocritical to factor in some wiggle room for adults to smoke might do well to remember that the G2SS is not the final word here. We have laws and one of them is that smoking is illegal for people under the age of 18, but legal for those 18 and older. Seems to me that whatever ambiguity or hypocrisy people may find in the G2SS, there is no such ambiguity in the law. Now I'm not advocating a witch hunt here because I know that in reality, some people do and always will smoke. But I also don't see a lot of cause for confusion on this issue. Lisa'bob

If you were to wait until 5th grade you'd be cutting things pretty close. Around here most packs and troops shut down (or at least, scale way back) for the summer and they're not fully functional again until at least late September. And then it is usually snowing by mid November. So if we waited until 5th grade we'd only have 1 or 2 chances to do any joint camping before cross over rolls around in Feb/March. Our troop conducts one specific webelos campout each year in Oct. and that's kind of a mad house because both 4th and 5th graders from several packs usually attend. They're open to having smaller groups of webelos join them at other times if asked too though - both 4th and 5th graders. Lisa'bob

In ours you are expected to fill out the app. on an annual basis. I really can't see that the paperwork is that onerous. If people can't find the time to fill out the app it makes me wonder whether they are really interested in being an MBC anyway? Lisa'bob

Not to revive an old thread but this topic came up in our troop recently. What do you think about asking the SPL and/or PLC to address the troop on this issue, rather than the SM? Keeping in mind that some of the PLC members are likely offenders... Lisa'bob

Well no Annie, it never did bother me. Now if they'd been a funny shade of green it might've caught my attention but as it is, they just had some teeth. Sharp ones. (OK I did some checking and yes - they should be chartreuse although they never were at OUR camp! That's pretty funny!) Lisa'bob

In the past our troop has had a lot of success with "events" rather than "things." (though I'm not wild about some of them, myself) One particularly successful one has been a jeopardy-style "trivia night" where people pay to play. You can set them up in teams (we do tables of 4) or I suppose do this individually. We gave small prizes to winning teams. People seem to like them because they're fun, social, mildly competitive, etc.. We've done road rallies - sort of like scavenger hunts with wheels - that have been quite successful too but with the price of gas these days these are more problematic. And besides, there is really very little opportunity for scouts themselves to be involved in these, as they can't drive. (You can probably tell, I really don't care much for this one - but it has been an excellent fundraiser for the troop). Are there opportunities for you to sell water or soda, or to perform services for a fee (clean up the city park after local festivals, etc.)? best, Lisa'bob

I like Fuzzy Bear's "rules." Following them would just about guarantee a strong pack. I'm a former DL and committee member from a pack that is not affiliated with any particular troop. As a webelos leader: I'd like to have had some practical suggestions for forming ties to area troops, maybe including a listing of area troops and the contact info for the SM and CC. I'd have liked some discussion of what the heck a den chief is (and isn't) and - most importantly - how to go about finding one! I'd have liked a clear explanation regarding which district/council boy scout events webelos are welcome to attend and which they are discouraged from attending, and when these are, so we would know what to try to get invitations to attend. (Note, a lot of this stems from particular weaknesses and points of contention in my specific area - but I am willing to believe that similar concerns come up in many other places too) As a wolf and bear leader: I'd have liked more ideas about age-appropriate outdoor service/conservation opportunities in the area. Maybe also a list of some of the groups in the area we could contact to set up service projects or to visit for field trips. Seems like a lot of the time we end up re-inventing the wheel here and consequently we don't find out about a lot of great opportunities until we've been den leaders for a few years - ie, until we get to webelos. I absolutely agree that more attention could be paid to strategies for recruiting other adult leaders and FB is 110% right that people will rarely volunteer if they think they'll be working all by themselves or "saving" an overly-busy individual and thus getting sucked in as well. I'd have liked to see a training staff place emphasis on the cub program not only as a means (to stock boy scout troops) but also as an end in itself. We don't run the program only to feed troops. Oh - and I'd REALLY have liked ACCURATE information! Irked me no end to be given blatantly wrong info (about awards and advancement in particular) by somebody who hadn't been associated with a pack in years and in a condescending manner, no less. In short, don't waste my time! (But I know you won't - the fact that you're asking at all is a sign that you are committed to doing a great job!) Lisa'bob

You know that's been bugging me about the sharp tooth buzzards. I think I remember it being spoken, not sung. Well, yelled is probably more like it. But that was a while ago and I am not positive about that! I do remember it being a big hit though . Anybody else remember this one better than I do? Lisa'bob

Our troop does this. Our pack did not. With all the zillion patches and beltloops cubs can earn the advancement costs added up pretty quickly. We decided not to offer the pins because we would've then had to either raise dues or do more fundraising, just to pay for them all (and usually all at about the same time - Blue & Gold time). This was not something that the majority of us felt we wanted to do. That said...I like that our troop does this. Ours come with an expectation that the boys either give their parent a handshake, a hug or a kiss (but that's pushing things for most of them) and a "thank you" along with the pin. Nothing like making those teen age boys acknowledge their parents - in public - as something more than a mere source of transportation! Lisa'bob

I like flmom's thoughts on this. This might be a parent who just doesn't understand the whole process. (Then again, it might be a parent who understands it fine and is just overly pushy, but I'm giving mom the benefit of the doubt here) Even if she's way out of line on this, having a quiet and polite discussion about why you don't think junior has done a sufficient job in his POR might leave her feeling that she can't reasonably disagree. Perhaps include junior in this discussion. Mom - hopefully - won't get all huffed up in front of him. Good luck... Lisa'bob

Thanks for the input. AwHeck, I really like that idea and will suggest it to our adv. chair. I completely agree that, ideally, these thank yous should be coming from the boy and not the adults. Lisa'bob

SR540Beaver, I agree completely - big country, lots of different circumstances. (So why is it that almost everybody does cross over at about the same time?) If late winter cross over works for some units, great. Not my intention to discourage them! My point was only that I don't think it has worked especially well for us, for a variety of reasons. A couple of people have mentioned holding separate events for the new scouts or not sending them on the first campout that comes up after cross over, if the conditions are likely to be tough. I'm curious about how that goes over and how many folks do this? We have not tried it - and honestly I think the suggestion would go over like a lead balloon - but I am intrigued. Fair or not, the counter-arguments I would expect are: 1) This delays integration into the troop and 2) The new scouts are all excited about joining the troop and participating in troop activities, and won't like being left out and 3) the dreaded "webelos III" notion (if you run a separate program just for your new scouts) and 4) could make attending troop meetings pretty dull for new scouts- because much of the troop meeting is focused on activities related to the upcoming campout, which the new scouts wouldn't be attending The positives I imagine are: 1) gives the new scouts an experience that is appropriate to their level of skill while allowing older scouts to do something more challenging 2) allows for bonding among new scouts 3) maybe increases retention 4) might allow for bonding between troop guide(s) and new scouts Tell me more. Lisa'bob

I agree that a lot of problems can be avoided through better communication and joint pack/troop efforts. Also I think it is helpful when packs have a good outdoor program to start with, including cub camping. By definition though, cubs do not do winter camping. So while we may do more prep work to get these guys ready (and I think we - meaning the troop my son is now part of and the pack we were part of - really need to beef this up A LOT), truth is still going to be that the first boy scout campout these guys go on will likely also be their first true winter camping experience. To put this in context: last year's March campout it hovered around zero; this year, heat wave, it was in the pre-teens (at least it made it double digits). This is during the day. These were not abberations, it really is cold here that time of year. Others may disagree but I wonder if that's the best set of circumstances under which to introduce boys to boy scouting. Let's face it, most 10-11 year old kids are going to be cold in weather like that, and there's so much else going on/to learn on those first few campouts, and being cold is not likely going to make it a more pleasant experience for these little guys. And if they don't have a good time that first time out? Well some will stick to it but others will not. By the way we came from a pack that holds two pack campouts a year plus at least one webelos-only campout, in addition to joint webelos/troop camps. But again, all of that generally happens in warmer weather. As for program - yes, I agree that moving cross-over to later in the spring would mean that we'd need to work hard to come up with an exciting program in order to keep those webelos II boys happy. But I don't think that's insurmountable. Lisa'bob

Our council has a cub resident camp program that is pretty well attended. However, in MANY cases, parents attend with the boys. And it is only a couple of nights (I think 2 nights, 3 days). Also our district has had an excellent cub day camp program. Most boys attend one or the other, but not both, and some packs have a tradition of doing day camp. Then there's the fact that in cub scouts, the leaders' kids are seldom far from mom or dad. I know a lot of cub leaders who step back (way back in some cases) when their boys cross over so there's a whole other group of boys who aren't used to camping w/o a parent, because in cubs their parents were the ones who were always there, running everything! So it is reality that we get a fair number of boys who have never camped without a parent before. Honestly, this has not been a major problem for most boys that I've met. Actually I think weekend camping has been more problematic in some cases because there are additional challenges (potential for extremely cold weather camping in Feb/March/April around here, for example) and because of the short-term nature. We leave Friday night; by the time the boys are beginning to get settled it is time to pack up and go home on Sunday morning. At least at summer camp they get a little time to settle in. Lisa'bob

I don't think that going to summer camp is a major problem for a lot of these guys but I do agree that in some circumstances, cross-over in Feb/March is a poor choice. The last two years I've watched our brand new scouts get all excited about their first camping trip with the troop, only to have a miserable time because they're just not ready to do winter camping the first time out. Last year we had a couple of boys quit right after the first campout and several more swore they'd never go winter camping again. This year, only one quit (so far) but several others didn't go to the next campout even though the weather was much improved - they weren't sure they wanted to camp after the first time. I worry we'll lose these boys too. I've advocated moving cross-over but the idea meets resistance both from the troops (want to bring in all the new boys around the same time; don't want to lose boys to troops who cross over earlier in the year; want boys to have time to bond before summer camp) and from the packs (don't want to run WII program any later into the year; if some troops cross early and others don't, could cause difficulty for dens who cross into multiple troops). Old habits die hard. I think in order for this to work, there has to be a broad consensus in the area, with all packs and troops doing cross-over at about the same time. Lisa'bob

I think there's a fine line. My son's troop does set up two separate camps - one for adults and one for the boys, with a little distance in between, as described in some other posts here. One concern I (and other newer parents) had with my son's troop last year was that there was too much distance and the boys were not developing those relationships. A sure sign of difficulty here was that my son couldn't name more than about 2 of the adults in the troop leadership, even though the same 10-15 adults attended pretty much every campout. After 4 months my son had no idea (couldn't even point out) who his patrol advisor was. Given that the troop uses New Scout Patrols, this basically meant that the new boys were left to figure things out on their own and that didn't work very well. This year I think we've done a better job of finding that line. The adults still have their own site and try to act as a "model patrol," though this is hampered by the fact that there are usually more adults present than a typical patrol would have. But, the patrol advisors have been working more closely with the boys, particularly at the younger end. Adult leaders have been more openly available for help, teaching, and as sounding boards. (It isn't that they weren't before, but that in an attempt to follow the "boy led" philosophy they were just difficult to pin down.) We still try to direct the boys to their PLs, troop guides, and SPL/ASPL when appropriate but there is a more hands-on feel these days. Also I think this evolves as a troop changes. At the time my son joined last year, the troop was made up almost exclusively of older boys (13-14 and up, with a solid group of 17 year olds) and suddenly they had a whole bunch of younger boys cross over. Neither the adults nor the youth leadership were used to dealing with a bunch of 10 and 11 year olds who are more needy, less mature, and less experienced in most cases. We had a lot of boys drop out as a result of this dynamic. This year, we are probably 2/3 younger boys and 1/3 older boys and we've had to change our approach a bit in order to work better at meeting the needs of those younger boys. Lisa'bob

I don't see a problem with parents of new scouts asking a ton of questions like the ones SSScout describes. I know that when my son first crossed over I had a million questions and I know that this year, I've answered about that many too for other new parents. Sad to say, trust needs to be earned. When you are handing off your child to someone you barely know, isn't it reasonable to ask a bunch of questions? Yes, some parents have difficulty letting go. Some want to make sure that the troop leaders have planned adequately for whatever may happen. Some want to have a head's up so that they can help their boy prepare a bit in advance (in terms of his expectations), so that he'll be more likely to have a good time on those first couple of camp outs. I know that a boy will learn to prepare himself and ask the right questions on his own, especially after he has some experiences where he DIDN'T prepare adequately to start with. But there are some boys who are better served, those first couple of times, by a gentle approach because if you throw them in with both feet and they're not prepared they'll be miserable and not want to come back for another try. You can't teach them anything if they quit. Parents of those new boys, and their Webelos Den Leaders, know those boys better and have a better sense of which boys are going to need a little extra help at first, than adult leaders of the troop most of the time, just because they've known and worked with the boys for years. So I'm all for asking and answering as many questions as people have right up front. Even, in the beginning, if it is a question that the boys (not parents) ought to be asking. And then we can educate both the parents and the boys along the way. Lisa'bob

I recently chaired an Eagle board of review (as a stand-in for our adv. chair because the candidate is his son). We were able to get the director of the group for whom this young man had done his service project to sit on the board, along with a couple of scouters who have crazy schedules these days, but made accomodations so that they could be on this young man's board. Afterward, I got to thinking about the time that these people put into the process; not just the board itself, but also in helping this scout along the way. I'd like to send thank you letters to the board members. I'd also like to send a congratulatory letter to the young man. (He received some nice constructive feedback from some board members but he mentioned later that he hardly remembered anything anybody said - I think he was a bit overwhelmed. I'd like to incorporate some of those comments into my congratulatory letter for him.) Would this be appropriate? Does anybody else do anything like this? I know it is not something our troop has done in the past. Lisa'bob

Personally I do not think that obedience must be blind. I do think that when I put on that uniform I should be upholding the principles that it symbolizes. I do think that if I cannot do that, then I should really look again at my decision to be a member in this organization. I also think that discussion about what those principles should be can be healthy under the right conditions. But, one must choose time, place, and approach to such discussions in a careful manner. At the unit level, you have to keep in mind that you are working very closely with these other adults, often over a period of years. Will this kind of discussion serve to strengthen the unit, or rip it apart over issues that you probably can't resolve to everyone's (anyone's?) satisfaction anyway? That depends a little on the personalities of the people in the unit and how well they know/trust each other to start with. This doesn't necessarily mean you must be silent if/when someone in your unit makes an extremely untactful statement - but hopefully you will be more tactful in your response than they were to start with. And your response can certainly be framed within the context of BSA policy too. (Keeping in mind the scout oath and law) At other levels, again, what purpose will be served? Is this idle chit chat (in which case, I can think of better topics)? Is this a serious discussion of the motives or purposes behind certain policies? Is such a discussion likely to start or aggrevate a witch hunt in your area? Again I think this really depends a lot on the context. For example, the district I'm part of includes one area that is overwhelmingly socially conservative and another that is considered to be the "lefty liberal" hang out in the state. Conversations about social issues relevant to the BSA are colored by this divide, and are more common and more open (in my experience) in one area than the other. In the end I agree with you that there's a good chance that everyone could find something about BSA policy to disagree over. But that's true of almost any large organization. Individually, we have to decide how strongly we disagree and whether or not our disagreement is balanced out by the aspects with which we agree. And then, we need to decide whether or not there's anything we can or should be doing, effectively and realistically, about the elements with which we disagree. Or at least, that's how I approach it. Lisa'bob

I'm 100% with gwd on this. Lisa'bob