Lisabob

Well I don't know, assuming that this guy actually means what he says and is willing to follow through on it, I think I'm beginning to like him. Based on admittedly limited info, I think he sounds pretty straight forward and isn't about to bend to any particular group that feels it should have (IMO, undue) influence over the BSA. This is probably naive but maybe we can actually get back to focusing on all the really great aspects of the BSA and its programs now instead of arguing over the DRP? Lisa'bob

Adding to ScoutNut's suggestions (which I think are very pragmatic): Assuming that you quickly find another camp that has 18 openings for your boys (or that the current camp has 18 openings for which you might need to pay - again), before signing up and committing to paying, give your DE a deadline. Tell him this is the situation: you've found a camp where your boys can attend and you've found a way to pay for it if necessary. If he doesn't have a firm answer about whether or not the slots your boys have already paid for through the current troop are "yours" by, say, three days from when you contact him, you will move forward completely on your own. You'll pay (again) for the new slots and you'll consider the matter solved. However...you'll remember in the future that he dragged his feet on getting you a timely answer, too. Don't know what others think? But as you say you don't have a lot of time and I think it sounds like you've played "nice" with the DE long enough. Time for him to make a decision or you'll make your own regardless of what he prefers. The boys can't wait while some adult from council dithers. Lisa'bob

My son's troop went to Rainey Mountain in Georgia a few summers ago. My son was still in cubs at the time so I do not have personal experience, but all of the boys and adult leaders who did go talk very fondly about their experience there. Looking at their web site, it looks like a fun place. Here's a link: http://www.nega-bsa.org/camp_rainey_mountain2.htm Lisa'bob

FB and others, thanks for the input. I was inclined to believe as well that the person in question most likely had NOT taken WB if he couldn't remember. However...he "thinks" he has, despite having no records, no clear memory of content, and no beads that he can remember. And he said it was at least 20 yrs ago, might've been more like 30. So he asked me, well, if it wasn't WB, what did I think it might have been? Yes I could ask him to track down training records to prove it. But I'm really trying to tread lightly here. There are few women in the troop - those who are tend to be not terribly assertive (not my style, fortunately or otherwise) - and there is an "old guard" that one needs to work with. Most of this old guard took training a long time ago and some are resistent to "refreshing" their knowledge. I'm in the minority in terms of viewpoint, gender, and longevity here. At the moment my goal is to help the membership person collect reasonably accurate adult training records (our current ones are almost non-existent) so that we can identify training needs for the upcoming year. This particular fellow is a good enough guy with his heart in the right place. I don't want to alienate him by simply telling him he didn't take WB - though again, I'm pretty sure that's the case. So thanks to everyone for input into what he actually might've taken, that could've somewhat, sorta-kinda, resembled WB. From the sound of it, he probably took the old Scout Leader Development Course, or Cornerstone and Outdoor Essentials. I'll suggest those to him and see if they ring a bell. Lisa'bob

Acco writes: "Good advice Beavah. People seem to forget that our goal as Scouters is not to teach first aid or knots but to build character, foster citizenship and develop fitness." I agree that the specific skills are simply a vehicle through which we are teaching less tangible aspects of development. On the other hand, if we are going to tell a boy that he has adequately learned and demonstrated some skill (first aid being a good example) then we have a responsibility also to make sure that he actually does know how to use that skill. Otherwise we are misleading the boy into thinking he knows something that he does not. That can be dangerous, as well as undermining the boy. We do no service to anyone by signing off on tangible skills that the boy really has not learned. So to that extent, yes, we are in the business of actually teaching first aid, or knots, or whatever; it is just that our actual end goal encompasses BOTH the specific skill and the larger issue of growth and development. Lisa'bob

You are right on the money! There is mis-management in every organization! And most of todays kids have no idea what is going on outside of their computer world. Sometimes I wonder if maybe this gets a little overblown because it makes for a good "news" story? You know, along the lines of "kids these days!" I know that there are kids out there who are tethered to their computer screens, game boys, x boxes, ipods, and so on. I've noticed, though, that these kids are in a distinct minority among my son's circle of friends, at least. It isn't the "good old days" when kids roamed free in the neighborhood all evening and all summer long either, but most of his classmates live fairly active lives, connected to the wider world. (at least the boys - I can make no claim about the girls - they are still an alien species to my son) So I'm not sure I can buy the (implicit) argument that our program wouldn't appeal to them because they're too hooked on their electronic entertainment. Lisa'bob

LongHaul, that's interesting. At various times we've had discussions among volunteers around here about the best way of teaching scout skills to adults. (yes I know, OLS, but I mean in somewhat more depth than a single weekend can provide) Lots of people have proposed something that sounds kind of like this old "cornerstone" that you described. But enough cards to choke a horse? I guess the downside is, how many people would actually do it all in this day and age? Personally I had the same thought about this specific case - that if he can't remember his patrol then it probably wasn't WB. Lisa'bob

OK tell me what you think about this one. The troop is trying to update our adult leader training records which are far from complete. We've decided that the easiest way to do it is just to ask people what trainings they've done and to the extent that they remember, when they did them. One fellow said he "thinks" he did WB but it was over 20 years ago and he isn't sure; it might've been something more like the predecessor to OLS/SM training instead (he knows he spent at least a weekend camping). Whatever he took, it was in a council across country, that no longer exists (mergers). So we aren't likely going to get a record of it easily and I also don't want to embarrass this guy. I don't know a lot about the contents of the "old" WB course? Those of you w/ more info than I have, do you think it would even be possible to confuse the previous WB with the older version of SM/OLS training? Lisa'bob

I don't think it is all that common. But when problems do happen, I think some people respond by seeking out as much information and different viewpoints and advice as they can find, from others who might've been there before them. (I'll be honest, that's how and why I found this forum!) And they're likely to end up here. So the sample of people we draw is probably not that representative of the average scout family's experiences. Anyway, that's my completely unscientific and undocumented take, based on nothing other than personal experience. Lisa'bob

That's a tough one and the advice offered by others that your committee chair should contact your district executive on this one. Without further information I also wouldn't want this person in direct contact with other boys. I do want to counsel a little bit of caution though. There's never an excuse for activity that would cause one to be on such a list. However, depending on state law, that list might encompass a wide variety of behaviors, some of which are more problematic in your setting than others. For example, in my state, if a 17 year old and a 15 year old have an intimate relationship, this is grounds for not only being listed as a sex offender but also as someone who committed their crime against a minor(age of consent is 16). However, there's no way to know, just from looking at the state registry, whether the situation was something like the above, or in fact something much worse. (There's actually a discussion going on right now about changing state law to address this) In the meantime, make sure you are practicing 2 deep leadership (in addition to this guy). Lisa'bob

Hang in there Sue (or come join our troop!). And I guess at some point I'd be really tempted to call them on it. "None of the other troops do it that way? That's right, and you're welcome to join one of those other troops if you prefer. But here's how we're doing it because this is the way the BSA program is designed." One thing you don't need is "leaders" who undermine the program. Sheesh. Lisa'bob

How often do you meet with this scout? Maybe a weekly or bi-weekly meeting with just you and the scout would be helpful. (in some public place so as to avoid one-on-one contact issues - let mom or dad hang out nearby if need be, but the meeting should be between the SM and SPL.) Together you could discuss troop goals & plans, provide guidance as needed in terms of developing a strategy to implement said goals & plans, etc.. And although he isn't going to camp w/ the troop, he should still be involved in getting the troop ready for camp. We've got limited info to work with here. But for the sake of discussion, let's give this kid the benefit of the doubt. Maybe he really isn't sure how to do his job, is intimidated by both his parents AND by you (he is probably aware that his dad has been a "problem" in the past and may feel that you'll hold him in lower esteem as a result of dad's behavior), and probably he is aware he's not succeeding the way you want him to - so he is avoiding you and the whole situation. Now that's not good leadership on his part, I'll agree. But you might need to do more to reach out to him and help give him some structure within which he can learn to lead. This is where mentoring can be really powerful. You mentioned he was elected in October and has a one year term, so you've still got a few months. Even without him going to summer camp, there's still some time to work with him. Don't let it slide any longer but do try to frame this as an opportunity for both yourself and for him - what can you do to help him succeed? Lisa'bob

From your post I take it that you are not currently serving as an ASM, is that right? Does the troop have other ASMs (and if so, how many and are they really involved, or just decorations, so to speak)? Assuming that there are at least a couple of ASMs, and given that your SM is looking at retiring in about a year and a half, I'd recommend that you sign on as an ASM now and then do all the training (as John suggested), without making a definite commitment to stepping up as SM down the road. A lot may change in a year and a half. As for the discipline issues: are the current SM and CC aware of this? Is the SM doing something about it? If not, why not? It shouldn't be up to you as a parent to have to address behavioral problems in the troop as a whole. And even if you are an ASM, if there are other ASMs, they should be working as a team to help address these issues - it shouldn't fall on your shoulders just because it is your boy being picked on. The team approach reduces the appearance of "favoritism." And what about those other parents who perceive that there is favoritism, are they registered leaders in any capacity? Have they been to training? If not, maybe the troop leaders need to encourage these folks to get registered and trained - or else, to sit back and quit grousing. At any rate - welcome to the group. I hope your son is able to enjoy scouts even with the issues you described. Lisa'bob

You guys are great. Thanks for all of the suggestions; I am incorporating many of them into the report. Eamonn, I'd not have guessed that you had that evil twin lurking back there! But I like it... Lisa

If I'm not mistaken, the requirements are up to the leader to define. We used ours to cover pack meetings and den meetings but excluded additional events because the additional events sometimes happened on short notice and sometimes boys weren't there because they just didn't know about it. Hardly seemed fair to hold that against them. Lisa'bob

Eamonn and others, please forgive my ignorance, but are Sea Scouts considered to be part of the venturing program? Or is this a whole separate niche program? Crews and Ships are listed separately on the info I have for our district (Not that we have any ships, but they're still listed as a category), but from your last post Eamonn, it seems like maybe Ships are actually counted as part of the Venturing program. Lisa'bob

Oh boy. No, his behavior has nothing to do w/ his woodbadge ticket, or at least it should not. WB tickets are supposed to be developed and completed in cooperation with - not in loud, rude, counter-productive opposition to - whatever group of people they will impact. That's part of the point - get everyone to buy into the same vision. Perhaps this guy slept through all the training on team building and leading change that he should've gotten as part of his WB course. To deal w/ the WB issue: One option might be to inquire as to who the course director for this fellow's WB course was, and give the course director a call. If this ASM won't tell you or you don't want to ask him, check with your council office; they'll know. Explain the situation to the CD. Let the CD handle it from there (and hopefully she or he will do so). As for handling his behavior in the troop, separate from the WB issue: Normally I would agree with John but in this case, I don't know that forcibly re-assigning this fellow to a committee position is likely to change his behavior in any way. If that quiet chat with the SM and CC doesn't work, I'd be inclined to let him know that his services are neither needed, nor desired, as an adult leader in any capacity. Besides which, one thing the CC doesn't need is a belligerent committee member. You mentioned that he is a transfer from another troop? I wonder if he tried and failed to pull the same kinds of stunts there too? Lisa'bob

Looking at our district membership information: We have 7 Crews. None are chartered by LDS churches. (We do have a Varsity Team chartered by an LDS church.) All of the Crews have fewer than 10 members. In fact my son's troop has as many members as all of the crews combined.

I'm working on an annual report to give to our CO and the troop committee and ASMs/SM. I don't want it to get too long, but I do want to provide an overview of what we've done, what our strengths are, and where we may want to try to do even better next year. Nobody in the troop seems to have done this before. (Honestly I'm not sure how (or if?) they have evaluated their program in the past! But I digress...) So I'm working from scratch. Here are the main categories I have right now. What would you add? Membership - continuing scouts, new scouts, drop-outs, and age-outs, by rank and time in the troop Rank Advancement - how many and for which rank/ # of boys showing no advancement in the last year, by rank Service to Community - # of participants, # of hours, and nature of projects Youth Leadership - PORs and Training Camping - # of outings, # of nights, # of youth & adult participants Adult leadership - # of registered leaders by category (cmte/ASM), # of fully trained leaders by category Fundraisers - nature of fundraisers, who benefits (troop/scout), amount raised, purpose to which the money is put Lisa'bob

"I could be mistaken, but it sounds like you might've seen the Bronze Pelican lapel pin being worn on an adult religious award knot (which is purple knot on silver-gray background). " Thanks for the explanation Fred! To be honest, I was thinking I must've been mistaken in what I thought I saw because, hey, pelicans?? But having read the info from the link you provided, it makes more sense and based on the picture of the medal I'm pretty sure that's what it was. Just goes to show (again) what a fabulous place this forum is! I learn new things here every day. (And most of them are even true!) Lisa'bob

I'm with OGE. The current amendment proposal is simply pandering to the socially conservative base. Apparently it works, too. A much bigger threat than physical security? Remember that if we are attacked by terrorists again because we failed to deal seriously with border control, port control, intelligence analysis, and coordination among security agencies. Let's be honest. Assuming that gay marriage poses a "threat" to begin with (not my view, but let's say for the sake of argument) then how is this threat notably different right now than it was three weeks, three months or three years ago? And if it is such a tremendous threat, then why has the Republican-controlled federal government waited around to act on it? They've controlled both the legislative and executive branches for some time now and yet there hasn't been much in the way of real, serious, effort at the federal level. Answer, as far as I can tell: there's no difference in "threat" but right now is an important electoral time because there are a bunch of primary elections going on that determine who will run in the congressional midterm elections in November. In the same breath, Republicans are suddenly bringing up a flag desecration amendment for the same reason. What, has there been a rash of brutal flag desecrations in the last few weeks or something??? Not that I've heard about, at least. Both parties are guilty of trotting out "their" base issues every time they perceive the need for a little electoral pick me up. That's all that's happening here, too. And strategically, this is a smart issue to "fail" on because when they fail to pass an amendment, they can trot the issue out again next time they need a boost. Color me unimpressed with our "leaders" if this is the best they can do. Lisa'bob

A couple of nights ago I was at a scouting function and one guy from district had a whole bunch of knots on his shirt. On one of them there was a pin with what I swear looked like a pelican on it???? I intended to ask him about it because I'm curious, but everybody was busy and I never got the chance. And now I can't even remember what color the knot was! Is this pelican-thingy an example of what you guys are referring to when you talk about medals and devices that go w/ the knots? And does anybody know what this one might've been for? (with apologies for what I'm sure is a horrible description) Lisa'bob

gwd writes: "Our biggest declines in membership are in two areas: Webelos to Scout transition and Tiger to Wolf transition. Do you other forum members see these two areas as your biggest problem in retaining membership? " Yes and Yes. And that's particularly worrisome for us this year because we recruited far fewer Tigers than usual. So if we continue to lose about the same percent from Tiger-Wolf then in real numbers (not %s) we'll be down even more than normal. Actually I just started getting involved with district membership stuff again and it is mostly focused on three things: 1) recruit new tigers 2) maintain existing cub membership 3) webelos-scout transition I find it interesting that the focus is almost entirely on the cub program. Purely from an anecdotal perspective I think we suffer in terms of cub membership because: 1) more and more schools in our area are concentrating all of the classes of a certain grade in a single building (so instead of 5 elementary schools they'll have one K building, one 1st gr. building, etc.). So if a certain principal decides not to let the cub packs distribute flyers or do boy talks in his/her school, we lose access to the entire grade for the entire district. 2) Tigers often suffer from adult leadership problems because most of the parents are brand new to cub scouting. Then when you go from Tigers to Wolves you lose that "shared leadership" aspect and someone has to step up as THE den leader. I know several packs who lost their rising tiger dens completely because no one would be the wolf den leader. Sad, and frustrating too. 3) Webelos-Scout stuff requires tremendous coordination. What I have been hearing is that cub leaders don't think the troops are communicating or coordinating well from their end, and troops don't think cub leaders understand things properly from their end. In fact both sides need to improve but frequently they'd rather point the finger at each other. Largely a matter of understanding how each others' programs work and I find there's an absence of such understanding, by and large. Of course all of the above is predicated on an assumption that units are running strong programs that would otherwise maintain memberships, all other things being equal. And you know what they say about assumptions. Lisa'bob

NDL, you're right of course that you don't need WB to be a good cub leader, and the cub packs in general suffer from chronic leader shortages to start with. However... I took WB over the summer between my son's Bear and Webelos I years. I finished my tickets while he was in Webelos. My tickets included things that helped both his den and the pack in general, not to mention helping me grow as an individual. I was immensely glad that I took wb as a cub leader! In some ways, I think it was more important for me to have those skills then, than as a troop leader! Precisely because cub packs tend to suffer from chronic leader shortages and high turn over, you really have to work hard at building a vision for the adults to buy in to. Precisely because so many adult leaders in cubs have no prior experience with scouting, there's a lot of ground to cover with new volunteers. And precisely because it's cubs, there's a lot more expected of the adults in terms of providing both leadership and program, than is the case in a troop (where ideally, the boys are doing more of that themselves and the adults are in the background more often.) So actually WB is extremely useful in a very immediate way for cub leaders. Or anyway that was my experience. Also: since (around here) the majority of people who take WB are, in fact troop leaders, it can be helpful from the perspective of a Bear or Webelos den leader who wants to build a good pack-troop network. Having gone through WB when I did, I found myself much better prepared to work on webelos-scout transition issues than I might otherwise have been. I met people from all of the troops in our area and got to know them well. That was a huge side-benefit to taking WB as a cub leader. I do understand, though, what you are saying about feeling like you've scored a victory just getting new cub leaders through the basic training! Lisa'bob

SWS, Actually I thought they were (are?) in the CS Sports & Academics guide - but I gave my copy away to the pack's new adv chair when I stepped down so I can't check. At any rate, the requirements I posted for archery came from the following link: http://www.usscouts.org/advance/cubscout/sports/archery.html (They have the requirements for all the other beltloops too and are generally considered to be a highly accurate site.) The source they reference for the archery and BB beltloops & pins is titled Shooting Sports for Cub Scouts, No. 13-550. Also as I mentioned, I did go through my council's shooting sports training and we were given a variety of BSA publications, at least a couple of which included the requirements for these two loops/pins. Lisa'bob