Lisabob

I just received membership numbers for our district the other day. We mirror national trends, it seems. I also noticed the size of the crews. Almost all have 10 or fewer members (and we have no sea scouts - which is a shame since we're located in the Great Lakes area and you'd think we could pull off some good programming that would make use of such a resource - but honestly, I'd never heard of Sea Scouts until I came to this forum). Admittedly I know more about packs and troops than about crews. But from what I do know, I think maybe the whole crew program is flawed, from the standpoint of longevity and membership. Most of the crews I've seen are started by people whose kids are either aged out of a troop or whose kids are teens and bored with the troop. A few are started by college groups who want a structure within which to do some fun stuff. Most have specific focal points (the hiking crew/the whitewater crew/the fantasy gaming crew/what have you). Most are more like a pre-existing circle of friends who do stuff together, than a scout unit. Consequently when that circle of friends ages out, moves away, gets tired of the activity or whatever, the crew folds. And I have yet to see any crews in our area recruit new members. What a shame, as we have plenty of boys who are aging out of our troop, would love to stay involved in scouting, and really aren't adults (ready to serve as ASMs or committee members) in any sense except that they're 18. Lisa'bob

Hi frznpch and welcome to the group. What a horrible situation you find yourself in! I'm so sorry for you and the boys that some of the adults can't seem to figure out how to behave. And it does seem that if these boys worked to help raise the money for camp, and camp is already paid for, that they should be able to go with no questions asked. Nasty adult politics should have no place in this. Here's hoping your SE makes a fair decision in short order. By the way - you've gotten some solid advice and feedback here from others. But you might have noticed that many of the other posts in this particular part of the site (issues and politics) are overtly political in nature. You might also want to have a look at other parts of the site, like the "open discussion" forum. Come on over and check it out! Regardless of what happens with the camp situation, starting a new troop is hard work, bound to bring up all kinds of questions as you go. The people on this site are unbelievably helpful and knowledgable (more than me! I've learned a great deal here) and I'm sure everyone would love to hear from you about how the new troop is going, and offer whatever help they can. In the meantime I'm crossing my fingers that the SE gets it right, whatever s/he decides. Lisa'bob

Here are the requirements for the archery beltloop. 1. Explain the rules for safe archery that you have learned in the district/council camp or activity you are attending with your leader or adult partner. 2. Demonstrate to your leader or adult partner good archery shooting techniques,including the stance and how to nock the arrow, establish the bow, draw, aim, release, follow-through and retrieve arrows. 3. Practice shooting at your district or council camp for the time allowed. All of the above comes with the caveat that the shooting sports beltloops may ONLY be earned at council or district camps, with the supervision of a properly trained range instructor. Also, the Cub Scouts Shooting Sports book and the USSCouting.org web site both include the following statement: The Archery belt loop and pin can only be awarded by a BSA range-trained shooting-sports director. ---------------------------------------------- Greg, I completely agree with your comment that individual pack leaders/parents can follow up with the boys to make sure that each of them has a clue. My understanding of the beltloop requirements above, as well as the safe shooting training that I took through my council, was that if I wanted additional people to have authority to help, such as to verify that the boys were meeting the requirements at an individual level, I could request such help. To such ends I routinely "deputized" parents from the packs to reinforce the safety rules with the boys while they were waiting their turn to shoot. Consequently nearly all of the boys were able to meet the requirements even in a relatively short time frame. In fact there were only a handful of boys to whom I would not award the beltloop, out of the 1200-1500 who passed through my range in a three year period. In those very rare cases, it was due to major behavior problems that prevented them from being safe. And so they couldn't shoot. But like I said, it was EXTREMELY rare. Overall - I think you're right that day camp staff need to be clear about the actual requirements covered and not award things that haven't been earned. But I also think that most day camp staffers would agree with that too and wouldn't intentionally award something that wasn't earned, especially if you nicely called attention to it. Lisa'bob

Everybody's feedback thus far has been quite helpful - thanks and don't stop! Lynda, actually I talked with our DE about the situation yesterday and he immediately offered to meet with the CO, either with me or on his own (as the troop prefers). He agreed that it doesn't sound like they currently understand the "benefits of chartering a troop." I do know for a fact that he hasn't met with this CO in years - he told me he doesn't know anybody in this group and I give our DE some credit for knowing almost everyone. I am hopeful that the DE's involvement will be helpful here. Several people mention switching COs. I am fairly certain that if we switched COs within the next year or so, we'd lose the several thousand dollars we've raised so far to pay for a new troop trailer. They would see this as "free money" that could be spent on their other priorities and it would be their right to do so (though not very nice). I really don't wish for that to occur. On the other hand, I don't *think* they'd take the gear away from us, but I can't be certain and it is a pretty significant risk. In doing some background research I too have found that the Lions in general are having a hard time generating new membership and this does seem to contribute to our communication issues in this specific instance. Nobody in this Lions group has kids in scouts, and nobody in the scout group has a clue who the Lions are. But I also found that the Lions support a very wide array of community projects and causes. Among those is diabetes education, awareness, and health care. The American Diabetes Assoc. is holding a fundraising Walk for the Cure in our area in the fall, and the ADA is looking for volunteers to staff rest points,hand out snacks to participants, work the registration tables, etc.. I'm thinking this is something our scout troop could do on behalf of the Lions. It supports an issue the Lions are involved with, it is something our boys could actually do, it might raise the Lions' community profile a bit, and it doesn't require us to solicit cash donations for the Lions. If we staffed a rest area maybe we could post a sign saying that we are Boy Scout Troop XXX, chartered by the Lions Club of XXtown. Any reasons you can see why this WOULDN'T be a good service project to propose that we do for the Lions? I know it isn't directly for them, but they do support the program. John, you mentioned doing yard work for the Lions members. Actually I'm not opposed to this but I fear it would look like pandering. Does anybody do this sort of thing for their CO members (not the CO as an institution - for individual members)? And I like Beavah's idea of sending them a report each year to let them know what we're up to. At least they'll know we exist. Will talk w/ our committee chair about that one tomorrow. In fairness, while I don't think they've lived up to their end of the bargain, I also think the troop can do more to communicate with them and to express our appreciation. The other night we had our last COH of the school year (to which the Lions were invited and as always, they didn't attend). I made up programs and included a brief line saying something like "Thank you to the XXX Lions Club for chartering our troop." Several people asked about it - said it was the first time in memory that anybody had done anything like that! (Geez, and that was simple! I'm going to send them a program along with that annual report) So there's improvement to be made on both sides here. Ah, sorry if this is rambling - it is the end of a very long day. Thanks again for your feedback! Lisa'bob

Greg, As I mentioned, I was the archery range master at our Cub Day Camp for several years (and loved every minute of it, too). Here's how I handled the rules issue. I'm sure other range masters do things slightly differently to suit their needs, but all of us are hopefully acting w/in bsa guidelines. 1) Prior to boys entering the range we'd have a short safety rules discussion. I'd make it a sort of question and answer format so that they were participating rather than me just lecturing. Only if they got off into left field or something I'd do more straightforward "here are the rules". 2) Once they entered the range (we had benches along the back, behind a rail, where they sat while not shooting) I had them do a quick recap. Something like I'd say "You should always point your bow...." and they'd answer as a group "down range!" The above can be done with an attentive group (and/or with their parents helping them be attentive) in a short amount of time. Only then would we begin actually shooting. And since the boys were always excited about archery, it wasn't usually hard to get them to pay attention. I also had posters hung with the safety rules written on them, and told them they were expected to read and discuss with their adult leaders while waiting for their turn. And I did also provide the adults with a couple of copies of BSA policy for shooting sports for cub scouts so that they could pursue further, as necessary. So I didn't do an individual discussion with each boy, I'll agree; we did it in group format. But as this was a pre-condition for entering (sorry, but MY) range, the boys were generally quite responsive and with very few exceptions over the several years, the parents with the groups were more than happy to take 5 minutes to "reinforce" that information with the boys who were sitting on the bench and waiting for their turn to shoot. So I felt this was a reasonable way to cover things for a large group of cub-aged boys. (as for the "MY range" thing - please don't take offense. However, the thought of a bunch of little boys working with sharp projectiles does raise safety issues and my biggest concern was making sure that the bases were covered in this department. To meet this responsibility I had specific rules and procedures, and they were enforced. Also as a woman I found that occasionally there would be a boy (or worse, a parent) who seemed to think that I didn't know what to do with a bow, and that they could act as they pleased, causing safety issues for everyone around them. So yeah, MY range to ensure safety. Not an ego thing, a safety thing.) Lisa'bob

Thanks for the responses, they have helped me shape my thinking about these questions. And Oak Tree, I'd have to agree, it helps to have the same definition of what being "in it for the boys" means! Lisa'bob

Hurrah! It's the bobwhites! I used to be a BOBWHITE, a good old BOBWHITE too. But now I'm finished BOBWHITING I don't know what to do. I'm growing old and feeble and I can BOBWHITE no more. So I'm going to work my ticket if I can. Back to Gilwell, happy land! I'm going to work my ticket if I can. Lisa'bob

I don't get too involved in some of the WB hoopla and I guess I'm not the "joining type" by nature. So I was rather skeptical, going into the whole endeavor myself. But I will say I found WB to be extremely worth while as a leader, and I enjoyed it, and I'm very glad to have met the people who took the same course, and to have expanded my scouting network. And I'm happy to have been a bobwhite. A good old bobwhite too! Lisa'bob

Maybe it is because I opened my big mouth but I've been assigned the (possibly thankless) task of trying to improve relations between our CO and our troop. Things have soured to the point that many committee members and ASMs are openly espousing a move to a different CO. I mentioned that I thought that would be a shame...maybe this'll teach me to open the mouth! So here's the deal. Our CO, a Lion's Club, is very small (6 or 7 members, all but 2 of whom are at least 70 - they meet in each other's living rooms) and not too active. They have been charter partners with this troop for over 60 years but in at least the last 5 years they have been on-paper only. Despite invitations, they haven't come to a single one of our events in that time period. They also don't provide a meeting place and didn't help us find a new one when we had to leave the National Guard post where we used to meet, they don't have any other youth programs for us to be a part of, they don't give any financial support, or a place to store gear. Recently, they've balked at signing paperwork for us (like leader apps and tour permits!) until they've had an opportunity to harangue us about what they perceive as our lack of gratitude. In terms of activities, literally the only thing they DO is fundraise by standing outside of stores and soliciting cash donations. They then disburse this money to other community organizations that they feel are worthy. This is the big sticking point. They have repeatedly, and increasingly vehemently, demanded that we fundraise with them. The COR recently said to me that "people who won't donate to us will donate to a young scout in uniform." We have been told by our DE, repeatedly and in writing, that we may not do this. We've shared that information with the CO, only to be told "well you USED TO do it" (back before any of the current adult leaders were with the troop - and that's possible, as the guy who ran the troop back then did pretty much whatever he wanted to do regardless of the rules - it was "his" troop). So: they perceive us as ungrateful and unhelpful; the troop perceives them as uninterested and inflexible. Lucky me... Here's what I'm thinking of proposing to both sides and I'll appreciate feedback from all of you who aren't part of this situation. 1) While we can't fundraise and the Lions don't have any other events at all where we could do service for them, we CAN do service in their name, for community groups that they support with their fundraisers. For example, they donate to a local camp for disabled children, they help pay for upkeep at a community park, and they donate to the public library's books for the blind service. We could do service for any of these groups, on behalf of our CO. 2)We need to put their name on our troop trailer (it isn't there currently because they refused to help us pay for it) 3) The boys in the troop need to become aware of who their CO is, and express their gratitude for the fact that the CO is our partner. (I'm at a bit of a loss here - but a thank you note from the PLC maybe? Is that too cheezy???) Note that most of the boys think our CO is a different service club in town, because we actually do a lot of service projects with that other service club. 4) The COR needs to attend at least a COH once a year and when that happens, we need to be sure to publicly thank them for their support. To be honest, I don't think we really want a lot of money from them - though we really need a new troop trailer and help would be nice. Nor do we really need them to tell us how to run the troop. But this isn't much of a relationship we've got right now. I think the prevailing sentiment from the troop side is we'd like them to show a little bit of occasional interest in the troop and quit demanding that we fundraise for them every time we need them to sign paperwork. Oh - and as to why not just switch COs? Well we could. The service club in town for whom we do several projects each year has asked if we'd like them to become our COs. They're eager to do it and much friendlier. But I see this as a last move, not least because the troop has been saving for several years for a new gear trailer and there's a lot of money in the account toward that right now. If we switched COs the troop would almost certainly lose that money. (not to mention the gear!) And of course it would create still more bad blood. OK, I'm all ears. What do you think about the above ideas? Any other things I ought to be offering the CO? Are the troop's expectations out of line? I know several of you are CORs yourselves so I eagerly await your perspectives. Lisa'bob

Beavah, that's an interesting response and perhaps this is part of the difficulty I see our troop facing. In the 15 or so months since my son crossed over and I've been involved with the committee and sat on probably 60% of the BORs, the SM has not once provided any input prior to the BOR. To be fair, neither has he been asked for specific input as far as I'm aware. Seems that there is a communication gap here. Out of curiousity, how common is it for others of you to either provide input (as SM or ASM) to the committee on issues you hope they'll address at a boy's BOR, or (as Committee members) to seek such input from the SM? Whichever side of the line you're on, would you perceive unsolicited info from the SM, or a request from the committee for input prior to a BOR, as normal/acceptable? Or would this be a turf issue from one side or the other? Lisa'bob

Just to clarify, everybody knows that you are not supposed to turn the BOY upside down, right??? THis is considered hazing and is frequently referenced as a no-no at leader training. (I've always kind of wondered where that idea came from, to start with!) Lisa'bob

"I'm glad you gave up a Saturday to be a trained to be a BB Gun instructor. Not many are willing or have the time to do that. " And it's a pity too that more people don't or can't do this, because running the archery range at our district's day camp was among the most enjoyable things I did as a cub leader! Lisa'bob

Yes, our SM does conduct JLT twice a year. And there are patrol advisors assigned to each patrol and troop guides for the new scout patrols. A couple of the patrol advisors do a great job of mentoring the boys who are PLs and APLs through quiet conversations; others, well, not so much either due to personality, temperment, experience, or due to the fact that a couple of them are rarely at the meetings. The troop guides have struggled too, particularly with the new scouts, several of whom have behavioral disorders and are just tough to work with anyway. In the patrols where we're hearing a lot of frustrations, the patrol advisors aren't very involved. So once JLT is over, for most of these boys, they're kind of on their own. The problem is compounded by the fact that the SPL this year was rather young (14) and missed as many meetings as he attended, and the ASPL, who has been SPL in the past, a good leader, was a graduating senior with a lot of competing demands on his time. So in terms of older boys mentoring the younger boys, there wasn't all that much of that going on, either.

"I'm buying OJ a toilet brush for his birthday" Thank you, Eamonn, for a good laugh! (I hope the experience once you got there made up for the drive.) And FYI for others - it is illegal in some places (like, in my area) to use hand-held radios/walkie talkies or cell phones while driving. So unless you've got kids in the car upon whom you can rely for accurate relaying of info, I wouldn't count on those technologies in lieu of written directions to where ever you are going. As back-ups, sure, but not as substitutes. Lisa'bob

While we're on the subject of BORs here, I have a couple of questions about how you handle these things at BORs: 1) To what extent do you pursue behavioral issues with scouts? We have a few scouts who have acted rather badly lately. Some have attitude problems. Some have medical/psychological problems that contribute to behavioral issues. Some are just teenage boys doing dumb things when they should know better. In all cases, the presumption is that the SM has discussed their behavior with them in private (I say presumption, because the SM is a hard person to nail down and not very good about sharing information w/ committee members in a timely manner - another problem for another day though.). And since he must have signed off on Scout Spirit and SM Conference, there's a presumption that by the time they arrive for a BOR, they're ready to advance in his eyes. Given that, how far do you press behavior issues in a BOR? 2) Boys are frequently asked what they like about the troop and what they'd like to change, or what they have difficulty with, or something along those lines. What do you do in your troop with negative feedback, in terms of actually following up on it? Lately we've heard a lot from our younger boys about problems in the patrols and leadership issues. Their comments suggest to me (and others) that we need to revisit the way that adults mentor youth leaders. Learning leadership is a trial-and-error process to be sure, but at the same time it helps to have someone to talk things over with, and a 10-15 minute BOR every few months really isn't sufficient for that purpose. Our SM and a few of the "old guard" ASMs take an extremely hands off approach here (and as mentioned, the SM himself is, by personality perhaps, just a hard person to nail down on anything.) and so any comments to the effect that there needs to be a little more adult guidance tend to be viewed in a hostile manner as an attack on the way the troop is run, rather than as intended, as constructive attempts to make the troop even better. Result: there doesn't seem to be much, if any, follow-through on negative feedback from the boys at BORs. It's a strange dynamic, but I bet that some of you have been there, done that, so I'd appreciate your feedback. Lisa'bob

Here's how our troop does this: 1) Parents may not sit on their son's BOR. It's hard to be objective about your own kid (even when you think you are) and it may make the scout more reluctant to share his opinions. 2) All BOR members are committee members. Not "just" parents, not ASMs or the SM. 3) When the advancement chair sits on a BOR, he signs on the left line (BOR chair). Otherwise, one of the three people present signs. In this case, we generally agree prior to the start who the "lead" person will be - it isn't a big deal in most cases. 4) We don't have a permanent position like "BOR chairperson" in our troop. I guess you could, but even then I think parents ought not to be sitting on their own child's BOR. While I like SSScout's idea of registering all parents in some capacity, this is also dependent on funding and parents' willingness to be registered. Not all COs help fund recharter, some units are cash-strapped enough as is and additional fundraising to pay for adult registrations that really aren't actively involved may cause acrimony. Not to mention that there are adults who don't want to register, or whose registration would be rejected by BSA, whose sons are scouts. So I guess I'd encourage people who want to be active to register but I wouldn't expect all parents to do so. Lisa'bob

A couple of years ago when we took our webelos on their first den campout, we had the unfortunate experience of being near a troop that must've been the older brothers of the pack mentioned in the original post. It was quite something and our boys were disgusted with the behaviors of that troop. Long story short, we did blow them in, both to the park rangers and the council and their charter org. (They were dumb enough to be doing some very bad stuff, right next to their troop trailer, with their troop number, town, and charter org. name painted on the side!) Generally I'm in favor of minding one's own business, but when things get out of hand at a certain point, well enough's enough. If I were in this GS group, I might've decided that it had reached that point and given the BSA council a call to let them know how this pack was representing the BSA image. Based on tour permits (assuming the pack filed one!) the council could, if they chose, figure out which pack it was and do some remediation with the adult leaders. Lisa'bob

Lest it be misunderstood, what I meant was that no, I don't think there's even a question about a low brass player doing the bugling mb on, say, a trombone. Oldsm mentioned that and gave the opinion that s/he didn't think it would be appropriate. I meant, no question (IMO), it wouldn't be. As for flugelhorns vs. bugles, I really don't know enough about a flugelhorn to say. If it is just a minor variation on one of the approved instruments, that's not such a biggie I guess.

My son's troop is a uniformed troop. They also have a troop uniform closet that most boys contribute to and take advantage of as they grow, which makes this easier. Our DE recently visited a troop meeting and commented that it had been years since he had gone to a troop meeting where all the boys and leaders were in full uniform. My son was feeling quite proud about that fact, as is his right. He isn't even embarrassed to wear it in public anymore. (I'm sure glad that change in attitude finally took place, though I'm not sure about the cause - it happened pretty much overnight.) On the other hand...the young man who just got elected as SPL for next year promised, as part of his campaign, to ask the PLC to switch our troop travel policy. Currently the boys travel to and from all events, including campouts, in "class A." The new SPL wants to change travel to "class B" because the first thing boys do when they arrive at camp is...change! According to my son, this proposal played a big part in the boy winning election. So is the uniform an important tool in our kit? Sure. Should it be used with common sense, just like all our other tools? YUP. I'm noticing that the boys see this...do we? Lisa'bob

I think you need to stick to what the requirements say. If it says bugle, trumpet, or cornet, then that's what counts. By the way, the troop my son is in has "always" had a bugler, who generally plays trumpet. We also have a couple of professional horn player dads in the group, which has certainly helped the bugler to work on his calls and to stay motivated. For a while my son (trombone player) wanted to switch to trumpet specifically so he could be the next bugler! Lisa'bob

Hi and welcome. We had several boys join as 4th and even as 5th graders. Yes, they CAN do it (though I think 4th grade is easier than 5th grade). Make sure the den leader knows they're brand new to scouts and they should be fine. By the way, my son sounds a bit like your nephew and we have found scouting to be a really good environment for him, in terms of developing social skills and interacting with other kids in his age range. I hope your nephew enjoys it too! Lisa'bob

That's a good idea but while I certainly don't begrudge this person of a profit, you can put the same thing together for about $5, minus the fanny pack. My son just did one recently, along w/ his hiking 1st aid kit (for 2nd cl. requirement). He put his in a ziploc bag and leaves it in the front pocket of the day pack. Glad to see some people "out there" are paying some attention though. Lisa'bob

Nope - I didn't even realize there WERE medals. Everyone around here gets the knot and a certificate. Lisa'bob

Acco, I don't recall asking for, or suggesting that I wanted, a "minute by minute dissertation" on my boy's behavior. But if the offense is serious enough to merit discipline from the troop leaders, then as a parent I do want to know. Yes, I would like to hear from my son. But I also want to hear from the adult leaders in charge and I shouldn't have to hound them to find out what was going on. This is part of the trust and partnership aspect of scouting. Not to mention, that it is smart policy for the adults. If I am going to discipline someone else's kid then they're going to hear about it from me. This is basic protection from misperception and "selective memory." Lisa'bob

Ed writes: "A public school chartering a BSA unit is not establishing a religion or making a law establishing a religion. " And this is where we could get into a discussion about what, exactly, constitutes an "establishment of religion." I'll be the first to agree, interpretation is key. But this is quite different from your previous assertion that "The Constitution doesn't say a thing about the separation of church & state. For what it's worth, I'm not even going to try to get into the interpretation discussion - once again, there's no point. People will interpret the establishment clause in ways that fit with their own preferences and beliefs, but it really doesn't matter since (as far as I can tell) nobody on this board has a seat on the US Supreme Court bench. Lisa'bob