Lisabob

I think there are good reasons to stay but you need to carefully consider your decision. (Also your calculus 18 months from now might be different than it is right now) Are you staying because you want to be of service? Or because you want to be in control? If you stay will you be resented by the remaining leadership? Or will they welcome you with open arms? If you stay are you "rescuing" the pack? In other words have you become (or are you perceived to be) so indispensible that they couldn't do it without you? This is a sign of weak leadership in the pack as a whole. If you stay, are you doing something for them that they could/should be doing for themselves? By no means do I mean to discourage you from staying. I just think it takes careful consideration about what your own motives are, how that will be perceived by the rest of teh leadership group, and whether or not this is a band-aid solution to a deeper problem of lack of leadership development. Best advice I've received from various scouters whom I respect...start training your replacement as soon as you get a new job. You don't want to be indispensible. All too often it causes power/control issues, resentment in some cases, and serious problems if you ARE indispensible and then for some reason you really must leave the group. That said - seems like finding good Tiger leaders is both crucial to the future success of the pack and increasingly difficult these days! Lisa'bob

As an old camp leader, well, don't let me get started! Some of my favorites: National Embalming School (There are several versions on the web. It is gross but the kids love it for just that reason) The Moose, The Moose (Where did he go?) This is a call and repeat song with lots of different versions. Three Sharp Tooth Buzzards - another call and repeat song, the motions are the fun part The Little Green Frog (er eep went the little green frog) and on and on... What I always find so amazing is that many of these tend to be "standard" camp fare almost everywhere in the country and this was true even before the internet era. Somehow there has become sort of a cannon of camp songs. Have fun, get silly with them! Lisa'bob

We currently have a venture patrol. All the boys are 13+ and 1st class or higher rank. These boys are also members of regular patrols, which have recently been re-jiggered to be mixed-age/rank (this is quite a change for us - up to now all the patrols have basically been permanent remainders of the NSPs). So far the venture patrol idea seems to be working just fine. They plan one activity each month on their own. Most months they manage to get it together; occasionally they've had problems and had to scrap their outing due to lack of planning (maybe 2 of the last 8 months). I don't know if this is how things are "supposed" to work or not - but I like the fact that these boys are in "regular" patrols too and not only the venture patrol. It gives them a way to stay integrated in the troop and many of them serve in positions of responsibility, while also keeping them excited about doing new things through scouting. Lisa'bob

Ours is about 20 miles from where I live. We do a joint RT with another district so turnout is ok - they have a fairly large pool to draw from. I don't go that often because a) they're not that useful and b) they're held on the one night of the week that is always a problem for me. (and given a, I have little incentive to try to deal with b.) Lisa'bob

Getting the kids pumped to go and sell a bunch of stuff is tough because at the cub level, it really is the parents who make the decision as to whether or not to support your fundraisers in many cases. But... This is one place where the trails end prizes are useful because the kids can SEE the pictures of the prizes and decide for themselves (to some degree anyway) what kind of goal they want to set so that they can earn the prize they want. If you're really adamant about not using the trails end prizes then maybe include some photos of whatever you are using as prizes, instead. Another way to get the boys excited is to have visual graphs (like a thermometer, for example) that shows how the pack or den as a whole is doinig toward reaching their goal. Of course you need to be careful not to go too far with this or you'll have some boys who are upset that they're not doing well in comparison to their den/pack mates, and when we're talking 6 year olds, this does matter. No hurt feelings over popcorn! But as a group concept, it works ok. One more way: buy a little extra popcorn and use it as free samples at your kick-off. Especially for the boys who have been around for a year now, you can also start out by asking them how they liked the pinewood derby, getting them all excited about that (or camping or whatever you intend to do with the money this year) and then explaining how that was possible because of their hard work selling popcorn. Give them a sense of ownership in it and keep it short, sweet, and fun. But honestly, I think you shouldn't go overboard with this, especially with big prizes. If they're eating up your profit then they're becoming a reason to hold the fundraiser themselves, rather than simply an aside. Lisa'bob

I'm a member of several professional organizations (NOT including the ALA). If, tomorrow, I attend one of our national conferences and propose policies X, Y and Z, I may get a fair amount of attention but in all probability, my proposals will not become policy for the group. That's even more likely to be the case if they have little to do with the main goals of the group. The way I read this is that one particular member (and probably some of her supporters) wants the ALA to do something fairly controversial. They may or may not actually follow through, but at the moment they have not. Before we get too up in arms about the ALA denying anything to anyone, let's see if it actually adopts this proposal. I agree that it would be irrelevant (in terms of the actual impact on BSA program) but more to the point, I just really doubt it will even get to that point. BTW - I'm a counselor for the Reading mb and I don't think continuing this mb is contingent in any way on having a special relationship at the organizational level with the ALA. Nor do I see any reason to drop this mb if the ALA actually were to go ahead and adopt the proposed policy under discussion here. Lisa'bob

Well and here's another one for you. My son is off camping this weekend and when we all assembled in the parking lot for the pre-camp check off we noted how many fewer big SUVs and vans were in the car pool. Several people mentioned they had recently bought smaller, more gas efficient cars - that also happen to seat fewer people and have smaller trunks. What this meant for us was...more people needed to drive to/from the camp site (thankfully not that far away) in order to get all the guys and their gear there. For me...this meant that FINALLY my little sedan fit right in...but I begin to wonder whether, if gas stays this high or goes higher (likely to happen), is anybody going to own a vehicle big enough to tow our troop trailer! Lisa'bob

iiipopes, You're right that Wal-Mart requires some advance planning. You mentioned Lowes too - we've actually done better there than at Wal-Mart in the past, and they usually will work with less advance notice too. Plus the manager at Lowes is an excellent person for all cub packs to get to know - you never know when you'll want to ask for donations for pack projects! If you're thinking about popcorn sales for fall - which you mentioned in another thread - maybe pick a couple of dates to sell outside of Wal-Mart now, and then you'll be able to get all teh paperwork in order over the summer. Also don't forget local grocery stores besides Wal Mart. They tend to be friendlier to local organizations anyway, in my experience. As Scoutnut said though - make sure you complete the Unit Money Earning Application (required for everything except popcorn) and that you follow those rules. In reality, councils seldom check on this but you should do it anyway to cover all your bases. Lisa'bob

We used to do big prizes at the unit level (bikes, tents, etc.) but got away from that in the last few years because it ended up that we were spending unbelievable amounts on these - and the boys who ended up benefiting the most a) often didn't need these prizes anyway and b) were nearly always leaders' kids - usually the same leaders' kids, too and c) meant the kid whose parents could not put a sign up sheet in the office at work and whose relatives lived out of state or couldn't buy tons of popcorn was at a permanent disadvantage in comparison to the parent who sells hundreds or thousands of dollars of product to co-workers, for their son. That'll always be the case to an extent, but when we're talking big prizes, this disparity is more keenly felt I think. This resulted in some parents being disgruntled (why are we paying dues/participating in sales, etc., so the leader's kid can win another bike?) Also it became quite competitive to the point of being a little nasty among some of the boys and yes, among their parents. On the whole, it just brought up too much controversy and did not promote a "one-for-all and all-for one" pack spirit (more like, a "what's in it for me?" spirit - ugh) Although some of the trail's end prizes at the lower levels are NOT great quality, I agree, the boys still think they're cool and I think we need to remember to see things a bit through THEIR eyes, and not our own eyes. And if you are encouraging your boys to reach for higher goals, I think the prizes at higher levels are much better quality. Does your pack do den-level show and sell events outside local stores? We found that this increased our sales by A LOT and also promoted den unity, as well as evening out the playing field among kids from different economic and family backgrounds. Good luck! Lisa'bob

Hang on Kaji, I think you are misrepresenting the ALA view. They are not excluding people who happen to be BSA members. BSA members who are otherwise qualified to join the ALA may do so. BSA members may use the library and expect service from librarians just like anybody else. What apparently is being proposed (and note that this is apparently not ALA policy but rather, a proposal - if I read it right) is that the ALA no longer have a special relationship with the BSA at an organizational level. They are within their right to do that and are not, as you claim, excluding any individual from ALA benefits on the basis of membership in the BSA. Lisa'bob

LoL Funscout! I'd like it in Estonian please. But seriously, the Canadians don't seem to have too much trouble with this. In majority French speaking areas, they sing the anthem in French (say, before the start of hockey games). In most other areas they sing it in English. Lisa'bob

In the grand scheme of things I don't think this will have any impact what so ever. Personally, I'm more focused on helping the troop get ready for summer camp, what we can do to make sure our newest scouts are becoming integrated into the group, and keeping our older scouts challenged and excited about scouting. If we swing all that, ALA endorsement or no, we'll still have lots of boys in the troop growing, learning, and having fun. And I'm pretty sure our local library staff isn't about to chase us out of the building! Lisa'bob

I don't necessarily have too much problem with singing it in both Spanish and English. I do have a problem with the musical rendition that I've heard of it in Spanish on the radio - it is cheezy. I have the same problem with some versions I've heard in English where it has been changed/modernized so much as to be almost unrecognizable. As I don't speak Spanish, I wonder if the translation is pretty much literal? I know that translating songs and poetry is tough because sometimes it just doesn't flow correctly when done literally, but this is one case where I do think there's a need to be true to the original text. By the way - I've lived in countries that either did not have a national anthem, or that had competing versions of national anthems and it didn't seem to pose too much problem to them in terms of figuring out who they were/what their identity was. So I guess that's why I don't see it as a terrible thing to have our own sung in other languages. It is the sentiment and values underlying it that I find important. Not that I expect everyone to agree though. Lisa'bob

I find this to be a very interesting thread because - especially for boys, it seems - cursing is often used as a (misguided) way to appear grown up. Why? Because adults frequently curse in front of children and no one corrects them in any kind of obvious way (where's mom when you need her?). Yes, corrections occur that are more subtle but the boys often won't pick up on that. I think an SM minute is a very good idea IF the SM him/herself is not one who is known to curse. In that case, it would be a "do as I say, not as I do" kind of lesson and middle school boys pick up on that pretty quickly; they're a bit rigid in their thinking about right/wrong and hypocrisy at that age. Lisa'bob

Welcome cubbymaster! I think it is reasonable to ask the charter partner to help you get your unit off the ground with basic equipment including flags. (Keep in mind that they, not you or the pack, actually own all equipment that the pack accumulates.) At the same time, what have you done for them so far? Any service projects for the church? These don't need to be monetary (in fact, I really think they shouldn't be); stuff like cleaning up the church grounds or planting flowers or serving the ice cream at the church social, etc., are all places where your cub pack can offer service to your chartered org. If you are already doing these kinds of things, then you are probably building a good relationship with the church and the men's club, and they may be more open to providing you with the items you want/need too. Since you're a new pack, this is a wonderful opportunity to get that relationship off on the right footing! Do sit down with your committee chair and your charter organization representative (and maybe the leader of the men's club) as others have suggested. The sooner both sides understand how you can and want to help each other, the better the relationship, the more likely the pack will succeed (because the CO will be fully and actively supportive) and the happier everyone will be. Good luck! And keep us updated - it is always nice to hear how new packs are doing! Lisa'bob

Funscout, the answer is no - once he graduates to the next rank he may no longer work on the previous one. Around here that's why we use the end of the school year as a sort of cut-off, so that boys can use their day camp achievements toward the next rank. I do know a few packs who do graduation at the end of day camp instead (which is always pretty close to the end of the school year anyway). In their case, the boys count what they do at day camp toward their earlier rank. But no, you can't have it both ways. Not that I'd lose any sleep over something that happened in the past like you describe. Lisa'bob

John, The only two times I've seen the birthday thing come into play in cub scouts are 1) when a boy is held back a grade but wants to stay with his den and not "repeat" a year of cubbing too (in which case, under the requirement as written, his birthday, not school grade become relevant) and 2) Looking at cross-over, we had a boy a couple of years ago who had skipped two grades in elem. school and was still 9 years old when he earned his AoL in Feb. of his 5th grade year. The revised (May 2004) troop joining requirements stipulate that the boy be at least 10 even if he has his AoL award. Otherwise, yup, we go by grade most of the time - makes the whole process a little easier. Lisa'bob

Now I'm a mom and that adds a slightly different dynamic but I am 110% certain that the boys in my son's patrol would NOT look well on him sleeping in my tent on a campout. He'd get razzed no end. By the way, he's 11 also and suddenly very image-conscious. Although *I* might like the opportunity to spend a little time with him and catch up on the day, it just wouldn't fly. This is especially important to consider if the "norm" for your son's troop is for the boys to tent by patrol. If it is a security/safety issue (lots of young scouts have little experience being outdoors and can get frightened at night) then here's a place for the SM or the adult patrol advisor to have a discreet conversation with the patrol leader or maybe the SPL too. I know that in a few cases we've specifically asked the PL or SPL to set it up so that younger boys were sharing a tent with an older boy they could trust in cases like that, especially the first couple of times out. Last thought, our campouts aren't that long - Friday night to Sunday morning. There's a lot of time for the boys to "catch up" and call home, etc, when the campout is over (actually we try to discourage calls home during the campout too because they also tend to result in homesickness and detachment from the group - they're not really immersed in what they're doing, they're still half-way at home, mentally speaking.) Part of the maturation process which scouting emphasizes includes the boys beginning to learn to make decisions for themselves and then live with the results (within reason) - something that is harder to do when each night they are getting back together with Mom or Dad to regroup. Lisa'bob

It's Me, Having seen it work tremendously well elsewhere, I do believe that the webelos program can be an excellent, exciting, fun, worthwhile program from which that the boys (and even their parents) can benefit. The problem may very well be that the webelos program **in your area** is not being delivered effectively. If that's the case I certainly understand why you feel as you do. Few of us would want to advocate maintaining the status quo if it's lousy to begin with. Of course, we have to be careful to judge this through our children's eyes (at least to an extent) and not our own. Sometimes that's hard because what seems dull to us is actually very exciting for the child. If it's still fresh to the kids and they're enjoying it, then there's value to biting one's tongue as the parent and letting them go on enjoying it. But...if it really isn't that great a program AND your son isn't getting what he wants from it either (though he may be unable to quite articulate this notion)... then if that's the case there are basically 3 options: 1) quit scouts, which is what you've proposed 2) find another pack that does a better job with their webelos program 3) become more involved as a leader yourself, so that you can help make the program every bit as good as it can be. I think what people here would say is that #1 ins't optimal, although in the end that's ultimately your decision as a parent. #3 is a lot of work and while it is also immensely rewarding (I am speaking from personal experience), not everyone can do this at every stage in their life. Also, not everyone has the temperment to work with other people's kids. But, keep in mind that all packs are entirely volunteer-driven, and if you aren't willing to step up to the plate then you probably shouldn't be criticizing those who have at least tried. (yes, I know you've been involved with your son's den from previous posts - I'm not clear on whether you're a den leader or not?) What about #2? Is that an option where you live? Last thought - You mention that you weren't a scout as a kid and so have no clear knowledge of how the boy scout program differs from the cub program. As a woman, I understand because of course I wasn't a boy scout either as a child! So here's something to consider. Maybe contact a couple of troops in your area and ask to come visit a couple of times. Let them know you have a boy in webelos and you - and he - are trying to figure out whether what lies ahead is of interest. They should be more than happy to invite you both along on some of their activities so you can gather information and make a more informed choice about what boy scouting's all about. (If they're unwilling to consider this, look for another troop - I know around here, we'd be happy to have a webelos scout and his parent join us for many of our activities, as long as they will be age-appropriate for the boy.) Lisa'bob

Woo Hoo! Another BOBWHITE! Welcome to the nest, BVCubmaster! Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

Here's one of those instances where I think I agree with Anarchist! Being CC in particular is a really tough job if there are other problems, personality issues, or factions already in existence - and Raybz, it sounds as though there are in your pack's case. If you're not known for your tact and ability to work well with others with whom you completely disagree (to put it nicely) then that's not the position for you. We all have strengths. The trick is to figure out what job needs doing, that matches those strengths. Of course that leaves your pack still in need of a CC. But, as others have pointed out, there are procedures for finding one. Lisa'bob

How timely this topic is. Last night our ASPL (not terribly tactful, but he gets results) actually stopped the meeting to tell the adults to be quiet - not once, but twice! 95% of these adults are registered leaders, but there are just so many of them - if we had 35 boys there, we probably had 25 leaders present. Most of the other adults were parents of new boys who just crossed over last month. I can see why they'd stick around, they're still checking us out and trying to figure out what's going on. In fact a lot of the adult conversation was about scouts and answering questions about upcoming events - but the ASPL was right, we were too loud. Asking the adults to be quiet didn't seem to have much effect though - most of them kept right on talking. (how embarrassing!) Of course...our SM held the adult patrol meeting in the same room last night - didn't make it into the hallway, which would've helped. Sigh. Here's another thought - you tell me what you all think. Maybe there's an SM minute here, except let's make it an SPL minute instead since the SM is one of the worst offenders (and I think he realizes it). How would that go over? Lisa'bob

Since the boys are mentioned as not all having their bobcat yet, I'm guessing we're not dealing with graduating 5th graders. Assuming we're talking about Wolves or Bears, this should not be too difficult to catch up. If we're talking about Webelos I, well remember that they only need 3 activity pins (Fitness, Citizen, and one more from a different activity group) plus a few other fairly basic requirements. So webelos might take a little more work but even there, if the boys and parents are willing, it could be done. (Regardless of their rank, I assume that they've at least done SOME Of the work during the year, even if they don't have the records signed off at this point.) MaScout, this might be an interpretation thing. My understanding was always that once the boys "graduated" to the next den-rank, they could no longer work on previous ranks. So a boy who graduates from the wolf to bear den could start working on the bear badge immediately, but could not get credit for any further wolf achievements or arrow points. We've traditionally set a pack graduation date and expected people to stick to it (usually a week or so after the end of school). Our main reason was so that activities completed at day camp or resident camp can be counted toward the next rank. Since the camp programs were geared toward the next rank anyway (in terms of how boys were registered and what activities they did), it worked out for us. Your situation might be different, but if the boys are going to day or resident camp, that's something to look into as well. Good luck! And let us know how it works out. Lisa'bob

We have the same problem. Earlier in the year the SPL actually came to a committee meeting to voice his concern that there was too much adult noise in the back of the room. It worked for a couple of weeks but that was it. (And it is, by and large, scouters and often the SM among them - not other parents - who are to blame in our case. We have almost as many registered, uniformed, active adults as boys. A blessing, to be sure, but it does raise some challenges.) To top it off, we don't have a second room available - but there's always the hall way. One thing that seems to work, when our SM follows through with it, is to have a short "adult patrol meeting" in the hallway right after opening, while the boys are having their own patrol meetings. All adults, uniformed leaders or otherwise, are strongly encouraged to attend. THat gets most of the adults out of the room where they can be reminded to keep it down in there (if need be). Also they tend to loiter in the hallway for conversation when we do this, which is far better than loitering in the room where the boys are trying to work. Of course, the ones who actually need to be in the room with the boys (patrol advisors, for ex.) do tend to go back in but that's ok. Just the act of getting them up from their chairs and out of the room to start with seems to create its own inertia and they stay (mostly) in the hall after that. Lisa'bob

Oops Kristi, I see that I errantly maligned your poor DE when I intended to malign your DC! Sorry about that. (The moving offer still stands; we have decent DCs around here too) Lisa'bob