Lisabob

Laura, I'd been wondering how your son was doing. Sorry to hear that things didn't improve for him. I agree, based on your descriptions, this is pretty excessive. Hopefully he'll have a chance to enjoy a better camp experience somewhere else next summer. Lisa

In the state where I live, a drive-by mooning may land you in court with a charge of indecent exposure and public lewdness. (I work with college students - amazing the things you learn from them!) Lisa'bob

OneHour, I wouldn't necessarily consider a mooning to be a YPT issue unless there were additional circumstances (like, this boy does this frequently, he's been accused of other inappropriate behavior involving nudity, there's a history of hazing problems in the troop, etc.) But I would certainly explain to this older scout how his actions might be perceived. Think about this young kid going home from his first ever boy scout camp and he says to mom: yeah, an older kid showed me his privates..." Now that might not have been exactly the intent of the "moon" but hey, 10-11 year olds are prone to misunderstanding "intent." Mom goes ballistic. You either get some very unpleasant phone calls to deal with, or Jr. Scout never comes back again and you have no idea why, or maybe both. Some will undoubtedly say, that's an over-reaction. Well yeah, maybe, but it is also entirely too likely to occur. So at the least, I'd be sure to point out the wave of issues that may result from his actions, to this hypothetical older scout. And Gern - keep in mind that there's a significant chunk of YPT that discusses abuse at the hands of other boys. Lisa'bob

" I'd suggest he become a committee member until he can change his ways." Hey! Why dump him on the committee! (Sorry - but as a cm myself, one thing I think we don't want on our committee is people who have behaved so poorly that they're no longer welcome on campouts. Committee is not a "time out" corner for badly behaved adults.) Lisa'bob

Based on your description, it sounds like this ASM is indeed out of line. An ASM who belittles scouts - especially the youngest ones - and doesn't understand why you would spend your time talking with your scouts when they're a little blue, is not delivering the kind of program I would want my boy to be part of, that's for sure. And he'll likely cause (or exacerbate) retention problems if he is allowed to keep this up. Lisa'bob

Heh, small world. Jim was my godfather. My parents worked with him on staff at scout camps (where else!?) when they were all still teenagers. Well if there are two things I know about Jim they are that he loved scouting and that he loved a good joke. The milk carton gag must've been right up his alley and I can just see him laughing about it now. Lisa Sorry everybody - the temporary thread highjacking is done!

Wingnut, would that be Jim Olszewski by any chance? Lisa'bob

Thank you ScoutNut - that's a very helpful overview. Lisa'bob

Has anybody participated in, or maybe even helped plan, one of these? If so I'd appreciate a description of the event. What kinds of activities were offered, who taught/staffed the activities, was this a joint troop/pack event or only webelos, did webelos camp as part of the event (and if so, just with their den? or with a troop?), etc. Also how is a webelos-ree any different from a Webelos Woods event? Any thoughts on what did/did not seem to go over well or work smoothly would also be appreciated. Thanks for the input. Lisa'bob

By the way Ed, you're right that there are people who legitimately don't test well for a variety of reasons. They may really know the material forward and backward but it doesn't come out on the test. I have a lot of sympathy for folks in this position. On the other hand, the vast majority of people who tell me they "don't test well" actually have an array of problems other than test taking. Due to the nature of some of the classes I teach, I see a lot of students who aren't doing too well in college and most of them tell me they're just not good test takers. Upon further discussion here are the major things I find out: 1. They don't do the assigned reading - expecting that all of the material would be spoon fed to them in class, making the readings redundant. 2. They tried to do the reading but they have such weak basic reading skills that they didn't comprehend much of it (and I'm talking about basic texts, not rocket science). Not surprising that they do poorly on tests designed to test comprehension of that material then! 3. They confuse having done the readings - once - with actually studying the material. 4. They don't take good notes, or any notes, and/or don't know how to take effective notes. 5. They miss as many classes as they attend and assume that "everything's in the book" so why come to class? 6. They don't know how to study. 7. They know how to study but didn't, or didn't spend much time doing so. Students regularly tell me they spend under an hour studying for a major exam. 8. They assume that a passive knowledge (oh yeah, I remember hearing about that and if someone explained it, I'd know if they had it right or not) is as good as an active knowledge (oh yeah, I've heard this before and I can explain it on my own and link it to other concepts too) - especially problematic for essays! This one reminds me of knot tying in scouting - there's a huge difference between having seen someone tie a knot and being able to use that same knot yourself for a functional purpose! 9. They get really nervous on test day as a result of all of the above. When the test lands on their desk they suddenly realize that they aren't well prepared, and what material they did know, gets all mixed up in that anxiety. These things can be dealt with and if students learn the preparatory skills and use them, most find that they're not "bad test takers" after all! By and large this business of being a bad test taker is a myth that allows people to bypass their own responsibility in the educational process. Lisa'bob

I teach for a living. I have many friends who teach middle and high school. And of course I write my own exams for my college classes. I guess you could say in that regard, that I "teach to the test" because I write the test. I've known many teachers at all levels who "lit the fire" for their students - or at least, tried. I've also known a few who I swear were the template for that old history teacher in "Ferris Bueller's Day Off!" Among those who really still have that passion, I've also heard many bitter complaints about being forced to leave out interesting material more and more because they have to spend so much time prepping for more and more tests - which the public then uses against them in both directions (too much time prepping for tests and you get nasty comments about "teaching to the test" - too little, and you get nasty comments and quite possibly a loss of state and federal funding, because your test scores didn't improve over last year's - or individual parents start calling you up and yelling because you expected Johnny to actually read the material ON HIS OWN *gasp* instead of spoon feeding it to him) So I do feel for them and at the college level I am happily immune from at least some of this. Here's my take on it though. If the test is well written and covers material in a thorough, logical, way, then there's nothing necessarily wrong with "teaching to the test." The students (hopefully) learn the material they need to learn - not to pass the test but because it is what they're supposed to learn - and the test reflects that. The problem is when the test doesn't cover logical subjects and instead veers off into irrelevant minutia, or is poorly written so that testing becomes more about guessing the intent of the test writer and getting hung up in other "test taking games" than about actual knowledge. Testing, done right, also requires students to learn to critically analyze information, synthesize information from a variety of sources, weigh competing claims and evidence, structure/organize their thoughts, write a coherent essay, etc. - much of this done ahead of time, if they've studied effectively. These are all important skills that go beyond subject matter and test taking, itself. But the test is a catalyst for developing these skills and without it, many students would not bother to do the hard work necessary to gain these skills (let alone, the factual information that the test covers). The parallel I see - done right, earning a bunch of MBs at camp (even basketry) is a byproduct of doing the things we all want scouts to do: explore new topics, develop at least a minimal skill level in those areas, maybe develop a deeper interest in an already-familiar subject. And of course, we hope they learn the less tangible things along the way such as how to work with others, following instructions, maybe even overcoming physical challenges and developing leadership skills and personal character along the way. Done wrong, well we all know it's just a piece of cloth. Eamonn I don't think the answer is necessarily "get rid of basketry" at camp (or insert whatever other "easy" mb you want here). I think the answer is, make darn sure that your MB counselors REALLY love their subject. Don't get some kid who couldn't care less, has no idea how to teach, and barely knows the material him/herself to teach mbs. And set high enough standards that the kids who leave camp w/ a fist full of MBs are proud that they earned them, and those with partials are fired up about finishing theirs. Lisa'bob

Thank goodness I live in a place where I can get Univision! Wahoo Italy! Lisa'bob

Pam, You know the good ole BSA - always changing something - this time it is the Tiger/Bobcat progression. Starting with this year's Tigers, the new word is, they will be earning the Bobcat prior to the Tiger rank (just like new cubs at any other rank must earn the Bobcat first). Lisa'bob

I agree with Oak Tree - this is something the boys can and (I think) should do both at home and in den meetings. Keep in mind, James, that you aren't going to be some random adult to these guys for very long - you're their den leader! They'll likely warm up to you pretty quickly. I would, though, keep the recitation part short and sweet and maybe let them do it in a group (at least for a while). Call and response works pretty well at first with these little guys too. Once they get it - maybe the pack meeting where they'll get their Bobcat badges you can arrange for the den to lead the flag ceremony or something too. Lisa'bob

Thanks for the responses so far and I look forward to more. Let me clarify my question a bit. I am not asking what *should* be the policy. I am asking, if "field uniforms" are expected (and yes, I've noticed that this is the recommendation for most BSA camps), then what exactly can my son get away with here? Is it the case that most BSA camps say field uniforms are expected during the bulk of the day but no one really dresses in compliance w/ the recommendation? In that case I could send him with his generic camp clothing and he'd be fine. In other words, what do I need to buy for him and what can I manage not to buy, without causing him to stick out like a sore thumb because he's incorrectly dressed? Lisa'bob

I took WB because I was trying to help rebuild a pack that had suffered from a big ugly leader/adult blow-out. Our ADC (also turned out to be my troop guide and ticket counselor)kept pushing both me and the pack's new CM to attend, promising that it would be helpful to us as we tried to resuscitate the pack, and so we did. Like Kristi, I had no idea what it was really all about, going into it. ADC/TG/TC was right and I have not regretted taking WB for a moment. Lisa'bob

I have a question about what is "usual" apparel for your scouts at camp. The camp my son is going to requests that the boys wear their uniforms for flag raising/lowering and his troop has a tradition of also wearing uniforms for the evening meal and opening and closing ceremonies. That's fine, as my son has two sets of the full uniform. During the rest of the day they've been advised to wear "field" uniforms. This is where my question comes in. My son owns two troop T shirts and several (cub) day camp t shirts. He also owns a variety of other "camp-worthy" old clothes that I would not be upset if they came back in poor shape or even not at all, but they're not scout clothes (they don't have anything scouting related printed on them). Perfect camp stuff in my view. But does this advise to wear the "field" uniform mean he ought to be wearing a troop T shirt every day? Assuming he changes his clothing (I know, a lot to expect of a 12 year old!) that means I need to buy another 4 or 5 t shirts at $15 each and I'd rather not! Used t shirts aren't an option here either - they just don't hold up that well. Also in your estimation, does "field uniform" mean boy scout shorts? Or could they be any type of shorts, with a boy scout T shirt? Let me know what you think and thanks. Lisa'bob

As a former archery range director at Cub Day Camp I got this question a lot so I checked with various council folks about why these 2 are not listed in the sportsman section. The most logical response I got was that there is a desire not to suggest to any boy or pack leaders that these belt loops be earned anywhere other than at a council or district sponsored event. Listing them along with all the other indiv. belt loops might allow (or "encourage") people to misunderstand and assume that they can just go out and do these two on their own, which of course they may not. From there: well, I know some packs do count these and others do not. I suppose it is up to you ultimately, but others are right - the book does not include them and that's fairly clear (if a little goofy). Keep in mind when they become boy scouts they'll get a lot of "if it isn't in the requirements it doesn't count" so be cognizant of that, however you end up deciding on this matter. Lisa'bob

Is Scott an only child by any chance? I am in complete agreement with Eamonn that whether or not this boy is a "little toad" it isn't right to utterly dismiss his accusations and assume he's not telling the truth here. Doing so is a danger because it sends him the message that the adults aren't going to believe him anyway, so why bother turning to them when there's a bigger problem. As to whether he's the victim or the instigator - or both. I have noticed that only children are particularly weak at reading these kinds of situations and may not recognize their own role in egging the problem on. But that doesn't mean the other boy, who is older and hopefully more emotionally mature, should get off the hook for his responses either. So it's our job to teach both kids these skills, as best we can. I've watched this dynamic with my own son (only child, just turned 12) and one older boy in the troop who both loves to play with the younger kids and has a reputation for bullying the younger kids. The older boy (who has a little brother) likes to engage in horse play but he's also been known to get too rough and get suddenly moody, to be short tempered and call kids names, etc.. Suddenly the younger kids feel they're being picked on, rather than playing and having fun. Watching from a distance - I've pointed out to my son later on that you can't always have it both ways, if you're going to intentionally nip at a kid even in fun (like puppies almost!), then sooner or later the boy may snap back at you. In this regard (learning important social skills) scouting has been great for my son but it has led to bruises - both physical and emotional. As for the older boy, well he's not entirely innocent either, as he does have a reputation for physically "testing" boys. Those who knock him head over tea kettle (in "friendly horse play") once or twice never seem to have a problem again. Those who don't, well... And as a Scouter I'm not entirely thrilled about this pattern because it has resulted in some of the more sensitive younger boys having seriously hurt feelings and that's no good from a retention standpoint or from the point of fulfilling our obligation to make scouting a safe haven for all boys. OK sorry for rambling. Here's a potential action plan. Maybe you can try to come up w/ a "code word" so that the younger boy knows when he is maybe getting too much on the fraying patience of this particular older boy, and so that the older boy knows when he's going too far and potentially upsetting or hurting the younger boy. This requires a serious explanation that the code word has to be "honored" and not just flung around to save yourself from retaliation every time you needle each other. But at these ages, boys may take this kind of thing seriously enough for it to work for at least a while. And it will help them - esp. if they are only children - to learn to see where that fine line is between slightly rough play and harrassment. Oh yeah, and as for dealing with "mom" - make sure you keep her in the loop in terms of what you're doing. Also ask her advice about how she would like you to handle this situation and maybe her insights into her son's behavior/viewpoints, keeping in mind that you'll have to get all sides of the story, of course. One thing that is just about guaranteed to bring out my "Mama Bear" side is when my son comes back from a campout all upset and the SM doesn't communicate with me about the situation. Even if I disagree with his handling, at least I want to know... Lisa'bob

Eamonn, thank you. I thoroughly agree. Besides which, attendance for committee training at our district training days is often pretty light. However, I'm not on the training team (I guess I'm "just helping" with this one) and the info has already been published for all district leaders to see, so this particular session is going forward the way it is scheduled and the question is, what sort of training can I realistically deliver in this setting? What I think I would like to do once I get my hands on that syllabus is to have a chat w/ our DE and training team about changing the format going forward. So that's where I think I will be using your comments to help push for this update. And as FB mentioned, I think I will also let anybody who does show up to this district training day know that the TCC can/should be delivered to their entire committee - and then encourage them to contact the DE to request it. There's both an opportunity and a pitfall here because we just redistricted not too long ago and the clique who have controlled training in our district for far too long (and not terribly successfully, I might add, from the perspective of getting fresh people involved or doing a good presentation) has been broken up as a result. So now may be the time to say, let's make this change and do it right here after, and maybe it will actually happen. Lisa'bob

By the way if you're looking for other activity pins that could be worked on outdoors, consider the naturalist and the sportsman. With just 2 boys you really couldn't pull off the team sports aspect in your den but you could play some individual outdoor sports, which fit into requirement 3. Or check out the Outdoor Activities Award requirements, or do a conservation project toward the World Conservation Award. Or check out the BSA's national historic trail program in your area (assuming you think your boys would have any interest and that this is somewhere near you) Colonial Ramblings (Maine National Historic Trail) Contact: Mrs. D. K. Rocray RFD 2, Box 12A 71 York Street York, ME 03909 Call: 207-363-4803 Or just do fun outdoor activities! I know you know that not everything has to be linked to advancement! Lisa'bob

Hi Michelle, I think I'd spread the outdoorsman badge out a bit, work on some parts now, some later. I think I'd want to make sure the boys have some basic outdoor skills and comfort level before doing a lot of camping. For example maybe you want to start the boys learning about fire safety and do an evening campfire in late summer/early fall while the weather is likely to still be good. You could, if you chose, work in some fairly simple (and tasty) dutch oven cooking like a cobbler or something too. Your nephew Den Chief may be able to provide some tasty suggestions here. This could serve as a step toward helping cook an outdoor meal (option #8 I think) and get them to start seeing camp cooking as fun. Ask each boy to invite a friend too - I've never met a boy who didn't enjoy a campfire and dessert - and maybe before you know it you'll have 4 webelos. If you're thinking about doing some hiking, we did a "scat hike" with our boys and a local park ranger early in their W I year - something the boys thoroughly enjoyed; even those who thought hiking was sure to be a bore. (and as a benefit, they learned a few things about wildlife, hiking, and LNT in the process) Another thought - if they didn't get their whittling chips as bears, that would be a good one to do - outdoors - this fall, if parents are ok w/ it and you think the boys are responsible enough to be using pocket knives. This is one thing I wish we'd done a little more of when we were DLs because some of our boys were a little too afraid of knives once they joined boy scouts, to the point of making it difficult for them to advance to 2nd cl. Caution is in order of course but irrational fear based on ignorance isn't good either. But yeah, you have some luxuries here. 18 months, just two boys (for now - I bet you get more). See what they think sounds like fun. Ah I loved being a webelos DL! Have fun and tell us all about it. Lisa'bob

I will try to answer your questions based on my experience and what the district rep. who sits on most of our Eagle BORs has told me. 1. It usually takes 4-6 weeks for national to review and approve all documentation. Sometimes less, but if you tell scouts and parents 4-6 weeks you should be safe. 2. National checks dates, deadlines, and signatures. I've actually sat with the woman who does the application checks at council before our SE signs. She has a program that she enters everything into and if there are discrepancies (like, the date for advancement doesn't match council records, etc.) the program will not allow her to continue entering the info. Personally I have not seen any Eagle apps that national returned, and from what others tell me, on the rare occasions that this happens, it is usually just a minor paperwork issue - but I agree with you, always better to be on the safe side! As for the situation you described, no, that probably wouldn't happen in my son's troop because the adult leaders are extremely clear with boys and parents that they're not "official" until National says so. But, I'm inclined to take Eamonn's approach here too. Lisa'bob

"Why bother with training? Why bother with books? Lets do a Chinese menu. We'll make up our own rules, but when we disagree, we'll see what the book says. Hey, that's my Troop Committee. " Dozy, I have to say that this is really not what people here are suggesting. Sometimes it becomes difficult to decipher intent via the internet, but I'm pretty sure on this one. When people have told you that advancement is a method, what they're referring to is what is known as the "aims and methods of scouting." You can find these listed in practically every troop level training guide, including the troop committee guidebook (pp. 3-4). It is also available at the BSA's website, scouting.org, here: http://www.scouting.org/factsheets/02-503.html (scroll down a little ways and you'll see it) The "aims and methods" form the backbone of the troop program and as such, they are rightfully a frequent check point for many unit leaders. Also, it is my understanding of the program as well - from training that I have attended, both as committee member and as a MB counselor - that the boys, not the SM, are ultimately responsible for choosing their own advancement path. If they choose to work on "fun" mbs instead of "Eagle required" mbs, so be it. The SM should be providing guidance in their MB choices, but not telling boys "no" unless there's a serious safety concern of some sort - and that would be a rare thing. Generally speaking, I've found that people on this board are unbelievably helpful and giving of their time, experience, and knowledge. But if you ask for input or feedback, you also need to be open to receiving it. Sometimes that feedback may cause you to rethink your understanding. If you don't want to do that, by all means, don't, but then why ask ? As some pretty smart people have told me on occasion, feedback is a gift - please receive it as such. Lisa'bob

"We need our vision to be the same from Committee, to Scoutmaster, to Parent (not necessarily in that order) for the boys to be served the best and for the adults not to become enemies." OK and here's where it would be wonderful if you (and maybe some other members of the committee, if they can be persuaded) would go to Woodbadge. This is exactly the kind of thing WB focuses on. Lisa'bob