Lisabob

Ed, the establishment clause in the first amendment is nearly universally understood to be the place where the Constitution does, indeed, say something about separation of church and state. Specifically: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..." In historical context, this was a direct refutation of the British experience with an official "state" religion. I have never heard of any, even rather fringe, religious groups in the US who have made a serious argument to the contrary. Now, there are all kinds of arguments as to what exactly constitutes an establishment of religion. But nobody seriously claims that the Const. is silent on this issue. Lisa'bob

So are most of the boys Methodist then? Does the CO prefer that you discuss specifically Methodist ideas (whatever those might be)? Does the troop have a specific religious character to it, which would be evident to people when they are looking for a troop to join in your area? In a case like that I can see asking more direct questions about a boy's religious beliefs in a BOR. Most of the troops I'm familiar with either are not sponsored by religious organizations, or are sponsored by religious orgs that none the less do not impose any preferences on the membership or conduct of the troop. And most have boys from a wide variety of religious backgrounds, not just variations on Protestantism and Roman Catholicism. In a case like that, which in my area appears more common, then I think it would be more troublesome to ask specific and very direct religious questions. Boys and/or their parents might be worried about giving an answer that doesn't fit the "norm" or that is deemed "wrong" by someone in the troop with an agenda. Lisa'bob

SaintCad writes: On a further note, I now have the info I asked for - why the policy and who sets it. As a scouter, I must respect it but that doesn't mean I have to agree with it. Well generally I wouldn't give unsolicited advice and I can't see much point in getting into a "debate" about homosexuality and the BSA (nothing is going to get solved here) but this is bugging me. SaintCad, you mentioned in a different thread that you are a brand new den leader. I'm so glad that you have decided to take the plunge! I'm sure you'll have great experiences with your son and the other families in the den and pack. That said...the issues that tend to come up in the "issues and politics" forum are almost never the issues that scouters deal with at the operational level. After 5 years of being involved in scouting as a Scouter I can count on one hand, with fingers to spare, the number of times this issue has come up in a scouting context in "real" life - ie, not on this board. So here's that unsolicited advice: please enjoy being a den leader. Please don't politicize your den by trying to introduce these issues to the parents, unless they themselves have a burning need to bring these things up (and even then, some controversial issues are better handled in one-on-one discussions rather than public pronouncements). Please focus the vast majority of your dedication and energy on the actual program and all those energetic, fun-loving, boys (and their families) whom you have chosen to serve. Do what you want with it. Lisa'bob

I find all of this very interesting. A few years ago when he was in cubs, my son earned a religious emblem from a church where we are not members. As part of the program, my husband and I participated with him. I admit that at first I was a little wary. Most of my personal experiences with organized religion haven't been too good and I was expecting this to be a hard sell for this particular church. But my son wanted to do it (mostly, I think, because several of his buddies who do go to that church were doing it) so I agreed. Looking back, I am grateful that we had a structured opportunity to do this because it provided outlets for discussion, sharing, and exploration for all of us. The church also never sought conversions in the process and they were open to question, comparison, and discussion (not the same as the religious atmosphere that I grew up in, that's for sure!). In short, the experience was an enriching one. So I am not automatically convinced that we should ignore the religious component of the BSA program. But religion is still a difficult topic for many people to discuss, sometimes even with family members. That's why I wondered how people approach it in BORs, which, it seems to me, can be tense settings on occasion. Here you're dealing with a young man whose ideas are almost certainly not fully formed, who may view himself as being in the "hot seat," and you're asking him about what may be a contested topic in his own family. Seems it would require a light touch and a great deal of tact and understanding of others' beliefs, to pull off such a discussion and get desirable results. I'm not opposed to asking about it - I just wondered how people go about this, is all. Now Ed, it seems that you are probably more direct in your approach than most of the other people who have posted. You've mentioned what you do when a boy says no. What about when a boy says yes? Is that the end of the story? Also, I'm curious to know whether your troop's CO is a religious organization and/or whether most/all of the boys in the troop have the same religious backgrounds? Please don't take this as an attack because it is not meant as such - I'm just thinking about when a direct approach might be more accepted by those on the receiving end (and their parents)? Lisa'bob

Welcome Chris! It's great to hear that your pack has such a strong recruiting program for Tigers. With such a large number, 2 dens definitely makes a lot of sense (I can't imagine 17 tigers in one place!)Make the most of it and have a lot of fun with your son and the other families. Lisa'bob

I just recently helped our troop's scouts choose mbs for camp and I had this discussion in the back of my mind. In most cases, the boys WANTED to fill every MB slot with something. The camp they're going to offers a lot of cool mbs as well as additional special programs. The main exceptions were a few of the older boys who have been in scouts for a long time. They left some blank spots, no problem. What I noticed though, was that if only a few boys leave openings, then they won't have anybody to hang with (or to buddy up with - which is required) during their open times, because everybody else is off doing something during each time slot. Maybe I'm missing something? What do you do, esp., w/ younger scouts, who have free time but no one to share it with? Wouldn't they be better off signing up for something specific rather than sitting around the campsite by themselves or just with the adults? Disclaimer: I have not attended BSA camp myself so I might have missed something here. But it just seems like from about 9am-4pm things are pretty structured and a boy without something to do w/in that structure would get bored. Lisa'bob

Our day camp has done this in the past too and what's worse, they handed every boy a page with various tiger/wolf/bear/webelos rank requirements that had been "completed" at camp - some actually had but many had not. I recommend you contact the daycamp directors and gently explain the problem to them. They may think they're helping you by doing what they've done. I know that was the case for us - but when I explained how/why the boys had actually not met the requirements they did actually change things. If you do this, it helps to have an alternative plan in mind to suggest. In our case, we ended up with a simple check sheet for each pack of things that MIGHT be covered at camp, with the emphasis on MIGHT . Each station leader at camp could then check off the things that had actually been accomplished. So for flag football, for example, the adult running the activity could check that they had played the game and maybe that they'd explained the rules, but leave the "practice for 30 min." requirement blank. Good luck! Lisa'bob

Strictly from a parental point of view, I would EXPECT to be told if my son did something at a scout event that merited discipline. And I'd be seriously ticked off, to the point of finding a different troop, if there were a reluctance to tell me. Call it over-protectiveness if you want but he's my child first and foremost. And scouting should be a partnership, which can't happen if the leaders aren't willing to share information with families - and receive information in return sometimes, too. Lisa'bob

me too and not only because Trev knows that bobwhites rule the roost! Lisa'bob

Sorry you had that kind of exchange w/ the parents Dan. You'd hope that such a concern could be dealt with in a less confrontational manner. Whenever I make calls relating to scouting I always identify myself as "L'bob from Scouts." In my case it isn't so much youth protection issues, as I seldom call scouts. Usually it is more "husband protection" issues. This never occurred to me as an issue (because I really didn't have any ulterior motives for calling!) until I worked on some district membership stuff a while back and ended up calling people I'd never met, all over the district. Got some pretty suspicious wives on the phone, too! Once I started identifying myself right away as being with scouts, I tended to get better results in terms of being able to reach their husbands. Lisa'bob (from Scouts)

Every semester I teach American Gov't to a large number of college freshmen, many from major urban areas in the midwest where the economy is not too hot. I find that they are not apathetic. They often care deeply about the major issues of the day. In particular they have strongly held views on our military policy and jobs/poverty-related issues. Perhaps not surprisingly, those who are often the first to be written off by society at large - young men and women from inner cities - have the strongest views, based on their life experiences. And these days, nearly all of my students know someone who is on active duty in the military. Many have, themselves, served overseas and are now trying to re-integrate into civilian life as students. We've had other students get called up for active duty mid-semester. It adds a certain reality to discussion when we are talking about foreign policy and several people in the room have served to implement that policy on the ground. Tends to cut to the chase pretty quickly. They're not apathetic. They ARE often frustrated with how difficult it is to get their voices heard and to effect change. Many of them start out feeling pretty alienated from our system of gov't. But that's not apathy. I think many people misunderstand this about "today's youth." Lisa'bob

Thanks everyone for the tips, they were helpful. Things went fine. The camp we're going to has voluminous amounts of (frequently contradictory) information but no parent guides. Lisa'bob

I could use a little help, on the qt. Found out just recently that I'm supposed to be doing a pre-camp parent meeting in about 3 hours. I have run summer camps in the past but I haven't gone to BSA camp in the past myself. Could use some quick/short thoughts on what to tell these people! Here's my list so far, off the top of my head and in no particular order: On Gear and packing it: 1. You can never have too many pairs of extra socks and if your son doesn't pack rain gear, it'll be guaranteed to rain the whole week. 2. If it doesn't have a name on it, don't expect it to come home. 3. Don't send clothing or other items that you'd be upset if they don't come home in pristine condition. 4. Summer camp isn't the best place for family heirlooms or expensive electronics. 5. Your son should pack his own stuff. But it would help if you encouraged him to use the checklist we gave him. 6. Your son has a list of the recommended pre-reqs for the mbs he chose. Hopefully he'll read those and bring the recommended items with him. On rules, expectations, etc. 1. Everybody follows camp rules, adults too. No exceptions! 2. No self-medication (exceptions for inhalers, etc.) - everything gets turned in as a matter of state law. 3. If there's a medical or behavioral issue we need to know about as leaders, PLEASE TELL US AHEAD OF TIME. 4. Boys won't be making phone calls home and they won't be available to take calls either, except in true emergencies. They'll be too busy having fun. 5. Write letters and send them early, but keep them positive. 6. Parents are welcome to come for day visits. Please arrange this with the troop prior to departure for camp so we know when to expect you. And if you promised your son you'd come, make sure you're there. Note that boys won't be leaving camp with their parents mid-week. I want to keep it short and you can see I'm struggling already! There are about 1000 things I COULD include - which of these (or others) would you say are crucial? By the way we have about 30 boys going, 10 of which will be first-time BSA campers and another 8 or so who did not do traditional BSA camp last year. So many parents are going to be new to this. Lisa'bob

One of the things I love about this forum is getting new ideas for activities to do w/ the boys (and girls, as the case may be). So I'd like to know: what really great programs or activities has your unit done lately? Ground Rules: 1. Program should be w/in the BSA (or GSUSA as the case may be) guidelines. Let's not get into sod surfing and paintball here! 2. Anybody - pack, troop, crew, team, ship, girl scouts, etc. - is invited to share their program. I hope I didn't leave anybody out of that description. 3. Let's try to avoid excessively nitpicking each other's ideas! With that in mind: My son's troop did a CSI-themed campout earlier this spring where they teamed up w/ state and local law enforcement units to learn about various investigation techniques. They got to work with police dogs, a mobile forensics lab, and (this qualified as "kewl" according to my son) got to use night vision goggles and "follow" a "suspect" on a night chase/hike (really an orienteering exercise as much as anything else). They had several crime "scenarios" set up and they had to act as detectives. Over the course of that month they also had opportunities to work on their fingerprinting and crime prevention mbs with a couple of members of the local and state police, who signed up as MB counselors. Several boys finished at least one of these and will be awarded the badges at their upcoming court of honor. They used the property of a local Christian camp that serves disabled youth for this weekend and in exchange they are doing some service projects (clean up and some building) for the camp as it gets ready to open for the summer. At their planning meeting recently the boys chose this campout as one to do again next year, with some minor variations to keep it fresh. Oh, and they managed to get their pictures in the local paper at least twice for this - good publicity! That's what's going on here. How 'bout you? Lisa'bob

Maybe it is moralizing, in which case I will apologize because I am certainly not perfect myself. But I'm unmoved by Bobanon's argument that other forums are nastier than this. That doesn't excuse bad behavior here. We ought to be able to disagree - vehemently, even - without getting personal or nasty about it. For those who are scouters - and I do think that is the vast majority of us - those words we repeat so often ought to mean something when we interact with each other. Lisa'bob

I find it distressing when scouters start telling other scouters with whom they disagree to leave the forum, when scouters make glib reference to true historical atrocities to refer to their political opponents, and generally get nasty with each other. The scout law encompasses many behaviors and values and not one of them includes threatening, intimidating, or belittling our fellow scouters. Lisa'bob Scout Law TRUSTWORTHY A Scout tells the truth. He keeps his promises. Honesty is part of his code of conduct. People can depend on him. LOYAL A Scout is true to his family, Scout leaders, friends, school, and nation. HELPFUL A Scout is concerned about other people. He does things willingly for others without pay or reward. FRIENDLY A Scout is a friend to all. He is a brother to other Scouts. He seeks to understand others. He respects those with ideas and customs other than his own. COURTEOUS A Scout is polite to everyone regardless of age or position. He knows good manners make it easier for people to get along together. KIND A Scout understands there is strength in being gentle. He treats others as he wants to be treated. He does not hurt or kill harmless things without reason. OBEDIENT A Scout follows the rules of his family, school, and troop. He obeys the laws of his community and country. If he thinks these rules and laws are unfair, he tries to have them changed in an orderly manner rather than disobey them. CHEERFUL A Scout looks for the bright side of things. He cheerfully does tasks that come his way. He tries to make others happy. THRIFTY A Scout works to pay his way and to help others. He saves for unforeseen needs. He protects and conserves natural resources. He carefully uses time and property. BRAVE A Scout can face danger even if he is afraid. He has the courage to stand for what he thinks is right even if others laugh at or threaten him. CLEAN A Scout keeps his body and mind fit and clean. He goes around with those who believe in living by these same ideals. He helps keep his home and community clean. REVERENT A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.

Well there you have it. nldscout and bobanon have captured the reason why I don't think this award should be given to serving politicians of any stripe. It gets all caught up in whether you like/agree with the position these people take *as politicians* rather than whether or not they exhibit the values and beliefs that are important to scouting. Down the road a ways, we might be able to come up with an objective analysis of their role in history but while they're serving, that' nearly impossible. Lisa'bob

Tour Permit is really not much more than some deliberate planning going into an activity. If you don't do it now, it will come as a rude shock when your youth move to the Boy Scout Troop. Ditto! As a pack leader I tried to get the pack to "play by the rules" regarding paperwork but there were still times when things felt pretty fast and loose or where I had to really cajole to get people to fill out the simplest of forms. What a surprise when we moved on to the troop where paperwork is just par for the course. Why is it that many troops seem to be much better organized on this matter? It really is not that hard...and every time I've had questions our local service center staff has been happy to help on a moment's notice. Lisa'bob

John suggests a round of our favorite WB song...do we have a Beaver to start us off? Lisa'bob

Ah, thanks Ed, that's more like the feel of the issues & politics forum. Inflammatory statements and such, even when we all agree on the basic topic! John, I'm off to the WB forum! Lisa'bob

I can see why people might find it inappropriate to give the BSA's highest honor to either Clinton or Rumsfeld. Part of the problem with this, of course, is that both are so closely linked to partisan politics. So if the BSA muckety-mucks were listening (ha!) then I would propose that no sitting politician be awarded this honor and that we place a moratorium (say, 10 years?) on awarding it after they leave office too. Everybody wins. The BSA won't appear to be as overtly political. The public won't make linkages between current gov't policy and BSA recognition. We'll have time to reflect and make sober, less-biased judgments on the characters of these potential candidates, in light of their full career (to date) and how they have held up to history, at least a little bit. You can't tell me that there aren't plenty of highly qualified individuals of unquestioned character out there who truly deserve this award. Let's pick them instead. Lisa'bob

John I'd have to say that as far as North goes, both the messenger AND the message are wrong. IMO. But wow, look at all of us who agree on this! Gives me warm fuzzies. Lisa'bob

Well it is a beautiful day here, sunny, not too warm (yet), and I'm getting ready to go hiking with four or five eager young scouts. We'll be doing a five mile map and compass hike at one of my favorite state parks. The trail crosses a river, goes through an old pine forest, includes an area where several species of frogs are sure to be found (what boy won't like that) and is generally a nice walk. Gotta keep these kinds of events in mind when the all that adult wrangling gets us down! This is the part of scouting I love. Lacing up my hiking shoes... Lisa'bob

Looks like those were adult volunteers, not youth numbers being reported. If youth membership is somewhere between 4-5 million then I suppose it would be reasonable for adult leadership to be somewhere around 1.2 million? By the way, I'm not terribly well-versed in this stuff so let me ask those of you who are - is it typical for this position to be held by someone who has served as a volunteer, as Cronk apparently has? I'd think that would be a refreshing bit of news and maybe bring a bit more pragmatic focus to the organization? Lisa'bob

respectfully disagreeing w/ nldscout... In some cases that might be appropriate. In others it might be overkill. I'm not pardoning a boy for stealing $300 just because the opportunity arose to do so. I'm suggesting that the justice system is, ah, quirky and sometimes metes out punishments, the effects of which are out of all proportion to the crime (mandatory minimum guidelines, notoriously poor health care for prisoners with pre-existing medical problems or mental illnesses, treating juveniles like the worst violent adult prisoners, etc.). Such a situation might do more harm than good. In some cases it might make more sense to deal with problems within the family/unit/community first, when possible, rather than go that route. And I would have to trust MaScout, who presumably has known this boy for a long time (he's a life scout remember and from other posts Ma apparently lives in a very small town so people probably know each other's business) to make that judgment. Now, if this young man had a habit of doing these things and/or was caught doing something similar AGAIN, then maybe...but I don't think a one-size-fits-all approach is necessarily the best one here. Lisa'bob