Kudu

evmori writes: Sure the unit can ban all peanut stuff from campouts but as once they go to summer camp, this kid is gonna be in trouble. Not if they Google and support summer camps that offer Patrol cooking. The PATROL METHOD: What a concept! Kudu

AlFansome writes: For those who believe that evolution is how we got here, what exactly is a "conscience" in the biological sense? My guess is that natural selection favored reproduction by individuals in our hunter-gatherer species who conformed to group survival strategies that required cooperation. All of these things are learned in childhood through positive and negative reinforcement. Conscience is the ringing voices of adults repeated throughout childhood that inhibited actions that did not conform to group norms. The more universal these inhibitions are across cultures (stealing other group-members' hunting tools, mating with their spouses, or killing them), the more disruptive the inhibited behaviours are to basic group survival efforts that require cooperation. The cultural origin of conscience is obvious: When was the last time you felt even the slightest tinge of guilt when you directly disobeyed God's strict prohibitions against cutting the hair around your temples (Lev. 19:27); Playing catch with a real football (Lev. 11:6-8); Eating shellfish (Lev. 11:10); planting different plants in the same garden or wearing a cotton/polyester blend Boy Scout Uniform (Lev. 19:19)? Kudu (This message has been edited by kudu)

OldGreyEagle writes: Remember the movie "Stand by Me"? Whitey takes his Patrol on an adult-free outing in "Follow Me, Boys!" as well. ursus snorous roarus writes: I've thought about this before, how many camps, state parks or otherwise, will allow a group of youth to camp without a leader-in-charge? The undeveloped areas of National Forests and State Parks generally do not have such rules, or at least they are never posted at the trailheads. Likewise some semi-developed campgrounds ("Each site contains a picnic table, fire ring, and tent pad. Vault toilets and hand-pumped water are available") are paid for by dropping the camping fee in a slot rather than with a live individual. Typical rules for these venues can be found at: http://www.fs.fed.us/r9/forests/allegheny/recreation/camping/rules/ Fully developed "Cub Scout" campsites with flush toilets and electricity might be a different matter, although some Scoutmasters report that such rules are not enforced unless Scouts call attention to themselves through their behaviour. ursus snorous roarus writes: and how do you deal with tour permits? My Scouts always rode bicycles or hiked along old railroad right-of-ways. I have never seen any specific BSA rules regarding Patrol Camping and public transportation. If parents are involved in driving the Patrol to its destination, and/or if the destination is a Scout Camp I would just pick up the phone and call the most enlightened professional at your local Council (probably not your DE). Most of the successful Patrol Camping I have seen is similar to when I was a Scout, the Patrols are mixed groups of Scouts and boys who are not in Scouting. I have been out of the loop when some of these mixed Patrols asked their parents, just as I never thought of asking my Scoutmaster for "permission" to go camping even when the destination was the Adirondack High Peaks Region hundreds of miles away. Kudu (This message has been edited by kudu)

Adventure Scouts sounds like Brian Pasternak to me. Every libertarian who has publicly argued for an American Scouting free market has endured at least one of Brian's surrealistic two hour California phone calls WOSM is an international cartel of would-be Scouting monopolies. Other international Scouting associations include the "Order of World Scouts" which was first founded 11 years before WOSM, see: http://www.troop97.net/intscout.htm I don't see much difference between "Adventure Scouts" and the "progressive" ideas that killed the BSA Patrol Method in 1972. The 1972 BSA program eliminated the Uniform as an official "Method of Scouting," introduced rats and cockroaches as "signs of wildlife" in a liberal advancement scheme that gave out Eagle badges without attending a single campout, and killed William Hillcourt's Patrol Leader Training in favor of the progressive "White Stag" manager theories of Bla H. Bnthy. We got rid of the rats and cockroaches but not the White Stag infestation Kudu (This message has been edited by kudu)

Beavah writes: I wonder if this means that chap in California won da first round in the suit to strip the BSA of its trademark protection on terms like "Scouting." Anyone remember the plaintiff or which district court that was bein' heard in? The trial is now set for January 26, 2009. Details at: http://www.youthscouts.org/files/Doc_125_Scheduling_Order.pdf Kudu

The original question, "How Can a Youth Program Member who Proclaims Atheism make an ethical choice to be in Scouting?" or "How can the parents of an atheist place a young man in a program where God/gods are a primary point?" assumes that atheists are bound by an equally rigid "primary point." Like most (if not all) of the so-called "Eight Methods of Scouting," the BSA's practice of the "Ideals Method" is the exact opposite of Baden-Powell's vision of Scouting. In fact the BSA even went so far as to issue a fatwa stating that "Duty to God" is not even an Ideal, it is an "obligation"! This "obligation" mentality attempts to present Scouting as a movement or attitude stressing strict and literal adherence to a set of basic principles. If you can get a child to admit that he does not believe in God, then you can kick him out. Baden-Powell's Scouting is the polar opposite. B-P presents Scouting as ACTION: a GAME that inevitably leads a boy to his god through 1) detailed study of "God's creation," nature. Badges that represent the mastery of these skills are called "Scoutcraft" badges; 2) Service for Others (once called "Practical Christianity"). Badges that represent the mastery of these skills are called "Public Service" badges; and 3) The personal example of his Scouters. Not their clever adult word games, but how they actually treat other people. Over the years I have encountered eight (8) Scouts (including three Senior Patrol Leaders) who defined themselves as atheists. My approach is to arm my atheist Scouts against closed-minded "obligation" Scouters by teaching them how to play their adult word games. Baden-Powell's approach to spirituality is described by some as "pantheistic." One pantheist definition of "God" appeals to most atheist Scouts: "God as the sum-total of all the natural laws of the universe." Atheist Scouts usually enjoy discussing such things. I get them to memorize this definition, and in subsequent discussions I ask the atheist to describe in his own words the natural laws behind whatever Scoutcraft skill he is working on (fire-making is my favorite). Once an atheist Scout had the option (the OPTION, mind you) of a definition of "God" that spoke to his own experience and did NOT depend on supernatural powers, a strange thing happened in my Troop: In a few months they said they believed in God. Significantly none of these eight Scouts embraced pantheism as I had first expected. For some reason they adopted the conventional religions of their culture. Older atheist Scouts then tend to retry their parents' religions. Adam, an SPL joined his mother's evangelical church for a while but then moved to his father's Catholic church. Younger atheist Scouts tend to come from homes in which one or both of their parents are non-believers. After a religious awards presentation, Ray, a twelve-year-old, excitedly told his mother that he wanted to earn ALL of the religious awards before he decided which one was for him (to which his mother looked at me and sighed out loud). In reviewing his "Scout Spirit Scavenger Hunt" another atheist twelve-year-old, Timmy, told me that he was "Reverent" when he "protected" Christian boys from his "friends at school who still believe that God is fake like Santa Claus." This Patrol Leader (a small but outspoken pugilist) had used his not-to-be-messed-with reputation and the force of his personality to convince his Patrol that it was safe to wear their Boy Scout Uniforms to school every Monday, the day of the Troop meeting. Timmy loved to sing at Scouts-Own services. Kudu

Narraticong writes: What did the founders of Scouting intend? I must admit I am not enough of a Scouting history buff to know exactly. The best exploration of what THE Founder of Scouting, Lord Baden-Powell, intended can be found in Tim Jeal's biography Baden-Powell. You can find some relevant excerpts regarding the religious context of the creation of Scouting at: http://inquiry.net/ideals/beads.htm Baden-Powell's Boy Scout Association had various suggested "Outlander" versions of the Scout Promise, substituting "Allah," "my Dharma," or other more appropriate words for the god named "God." The intentions of the BSA founders are murky, at least to me. The largely Protestant YMCA was most likely the driving force behind adding their three-tiered "mind, body, and spirit," concept to B-P's Scout Promise; "A Scout is Reverent" to B-P's Scout Law; and moving the BSA away from Baden-Powell's subtle spiritual understanding of Scouting in general (B-P intended Scouting to lead boys to their god through an outdoor "educational" game, the exact opposite of the kind of indoor classroom "instruction" found in Sunday school and religious awards). See: http://inquiry.net/traditional/b-p/scoutmastership/service.htm More recent developments in the religious politics of the BSA are probably intentionally obscure: According to one Catholic Scouting historian, the Catholic Church refused to join the BSA until the BSA agreed that it would NOT have the power to approve the content of religious awards, but the Religious Relationships Committee (RRC) now claims that it has that power. The BSA's rules and regulations are printed in a controlled document, so I wonder if anyone has actually verified if the RRC actually does have that power, and if so when was this rule changed? Likewise, when did someone drag out the Declaration of Religious Principle and make signing it a condition of joining the BSA? Probably the same people who dreamed up the Mission Statement :-/ Kudu(This message has been edited by kudu)

John-in-KC writes: This happened to be a point I drove home with Lawrence Ray Smith, who chairs (volunteer) the National Religious Relationships Committee, during my week at PTC Does anyone know to what religion Lawrence Ray Smith belongs? Kudu

Eagletrek writes: Hey Kudu I did read the article on lightweight camping but I didn't see where it was an authoritative scouting document. Remarkably the current BSA Boy Scout Handbook presents Lightweight Patrol Camping as the way to go, "From your first Tenderfoot campout...." The first photograph of the "Camping" chapter features all lightweight equipment, and the Patrols appear to be well separated. Significantly the "Patrol or Group Overnight Camping Gear" list on page 226 lists "Backpacking stoves and fuel." On page 230, "Loading a Pack" reads "In addition to your own gear, you might carry some patrol or group equipment. You share might include several pots, part of a tent, a camp stove, and some food." "Selecting a Campsite" on page 232 indicates that a Patrol selects its own camping site, rather than setting up a few feet from the next Patrol as is the custom in Troops that camp heavy. Note that the food is hung in trees not stored in boxes (although backcountry practice in bear territory should be to use backpacking bear barrels--required by law in some areas) "A site must be large enough for patrol members to pitch their tents and cook their meals. When hanging food to keep it away from animals, find the trees you need at least two hundred feet (seventy-five steps) away from where you will be sleeping." Note that the illustration on page 233 for "Camp Stove" is a MSR WhisperLite, as is the one on page 253 which presents lightweight stoves as the way to go for ALL camping trips, "Many Scouts use lightweight stoves on all their camping trips. Stoves are clean, quick to heat water and food, and easy to light in any weather Best of all, they leave no marks on the land. A stove in your pack can make it simpler for you to camp without leaving a trace. Eagletrek writes: You say, "The point of Lightweight Patrol Camping is NOT to buy TWO sets of equipment, but to use good quality "backpacking" equipment for "plop" camping." Who says? Can't a scout/leader have various kinds of camping equipment to fit his certain camping needs? I own my own Dutch ovens, which I bring to Troop campouts and to the District training events that I Staff. The idea that you NEED heavy equipment for car camping is mistaken. Eagletrek writes: Can't a patrol have a two burner Coleman gas stove while at summer camp to prepare their own meals vs. using two or three Whisper-Lites? Suggesting that a Troop buy two sets of stoves is irresponsible. Most Troops do not have the budget for that. When everyone cooks on WhisperLites and uses Lightweight Patrol Camping as the Handbook suggests, then parents are more likely to move from Walmart camping to a comfort level where they might even try backpacking. Most Troops do NOT backpack. Eagletrek writes: Silly me, why should I be discussing preparing meals at summer camp when now most folks don't cook and eat in dining halls. If we're really concerned about the Patrol Method, let's burn down every dining hall before we burn our Patrol Boxes. We agree on that Eagletrek writes: When at summer camp why not sleep on a cot in a wall tent? Sure, as long as a Troop doesn't go out and buy cots and wall tents. Eagletrek writes: Are you telling me that you can't employ the Patrol Method effectively if you camp "heavy?" I don't buy that. In fact, when I was a kid.... Everyone has a different definition of "Patrol Method." Scoutmaster specific training now defines it as adults running around bypassing Patrol Leaders if that is what the group "needs." Well, ALL parents arrive in Scouting thinking that is what any group of boys "needs." Likewise, if you camp with heavy equipment, most parents are going to decide that the group "needs" to camp close together because NOBODY wants to lug all that stuff very far from the cars. Baden-Powell's standard for Troop camping was to separate the Patrols by 300 feet. But in the olden days Patrols used trek carts to transport their equipment, and training was based on the real Patrol Method, not the theories of indoor business managers. Eagletrek writes: I don't know how big your troop is but most scout camps today don't have adequate room to provide the desired distance between patrols. I hear this excuse all the time, although your version is unusual because the wording usually indicates that the writer's Troop camps at commercial campgrounds, where the parents' desire for electricity, flush toilets, hot showers, and water hook-ups at every site has a much higher priority than the "Patrol Method." I use the term "excuse" because such observations are NEVER accompanied with examples of actually trying to separate the Patrols in a Scout camp and being told it was "against the rules." Such problems can be solved if you know your way around your local Council office. At the very least, EVERY Scout Camp has areas to which you can "backpack" a short distance and spread out at least as far as the Patrols on page 217. With Lightweight Patrol Camping you are limited only by how far you want to carry the water. Some camps have unspoiled streams that allow you to trade the weight of water filters for water, as on page 256. Likewise, all National Forests allow Patrol Camping, provided that you camp more than 300 feet from the parking lot, trailhead, or established pay-campsite. Eagletrek writes: The "footprint" of a Patrol Box is not going to weigh to heavily in how far the patrols will be separated. Sure it does: LITERALLY! Eagletrek writes: Like I said before, I like to experience the entire spectrum of camping; from heavy to lite. Most Troops camp heavy. Loading motor vehicles and trailers down with too much stuff is NOT an endangered art Your last post closed with a plug for "diversity." Lightweight Patrol Camping offers an alternative to the heavy camping that is the instinct of EVERY parent unfamiliar with the superior alternative now promoted in The Boy Scout Handbook. Once in harmony with the laws of gravity, a Troop can learn how get away from crowded campsites and experience the freedomm of the backwoods pictured throughout the Scout Handbook: The Promise of Scouting that is all too often broken. Kudu

For all young Boy Scout readers: Have you ever played "Capture the Flag" or "Spider and Fly"? Of course you have! They first appeared in a military manual called Aids to Scouting written by a man we know as Lord Baden-Powell. http://www.inquiry.net/traditional/b-p/aids2scout/a2s_167.htm Yeah, he is the same guy who invented Scouting for boys! Baden-Powell said that "Scouting is a game" and he included these two war games in his book Scouting for Boys and added many more in which Scouts pretend to "wound" and "kill" each other, just as human boys have pretended to do from the misty dawn of time up until the feminists were invented! Baden-Powell called them "Patrol Games" or "Wide Games"! The following Baden-Powell Patrol Games are a LOT more "politically incorrect" (which means more "fun") than Laser Tag, and you get to play them outdoors where obese adults can't keep up! This is what ALL Scouts did for the fitness aim of Scouting before leadership experts invented team-building exercises and Tenderfoot pull-ups! Here are some "traditional" (which means more "fun") red-meat, fresh-air Scouting Games by Baden-Powell in his own words that you can play by Patrols at your next campout. It's called the "Patrol Method"! BOMB-LAYING: is a typical Baden-Powell Scouting Wide Game: "Each Scout wears his 'life,' i.e. scarf, tie, or piece of tape, in the back of his belt as a tail, so that it can easily be pulled out.... A Scout is 'killed' when an opponent snatches his 'life' from his belt, and when 'dead' he can take no further part in the game, but must make his way quickly to a definite piece of neutral ground agreed upon before beginning the game [some versions allow you to get a new "life" there]... When the cover is good it is often possible to 'kill' a Scout without his noticing it, and when after carefully planting the 'bomb' the owner discovers he is 'dead,' his feelings are better imagined than described...If a Scout who has laid his bomb is caught on the return journey, he can be taken back to the captor's camp and made to remove his bomb, and then 'killed'." B-P's "Bomb Laying" is only one of 84 Boy Scout Wide Games to be found at: http://kudu.net/outdoor/games/wide It will be getting cold soon, so here are some Scout Games designed for outdoor fun in the winter. In warm weather throw balls instead of snow: LION-HUNTING: "If the hunters fail to come up to him neither wins the game. When they come near to the lair the lion fires at them with his tennis balls (or snowballs, weather permitting), and the moment a hunter is hit he must fall out dead and cannot throw his tennis ball. If the lion gets hit by a hunter's tennis ball he is wounded, and if he gets wounded three times he is killed. SNOW FORT: "The snow fort may be built by one patrol according to their own ideas of fortification, with loop holes, and so on, for looking out. When finished it will be attacked by hostile patrols, using snowballs as ammunition. Every Scout struck by a snowball is counted dead. SIBERIAN MAN HUNT: "A man has escaped through the snow and a patrol follows his tracks, but, when they think they are nearing his hiding place, they advance with great caution because for them one hit from a snowball means death. The escaped person has to be hit three times before he is killed." For the complete texts of winter games written by Baden-Powell, see: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/winter/activities/games For Outdoor Tracking & Stalking skills, see: http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/skills/tracking For additional stalking games, see: http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/games/ripley/stalking Be sure to check out other politically incorrect Boy Scout Games like the BSA's own Games for Boy Scouts: Including Selected War Games of the YMCA and the Army and Navy: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/games Kudu

The real problem here is that big government does not allow Americans a free market in which a corporation that represents Baden-Powell's understanding of Scouting is allowed to compete with a corporation headed by a millionaire whose vision of Scouting is to lure boys indoors to sit in front of computer screens "side-by-side with adults of character." The tedious paperwork in question is the opposite of Baden-Powell's understanding of Scouting. Do any of you guys who get all weepy about Eagle Projects pay your children to go to church? This is the same thing: Paying Scouts with badges for their leadership is the opposite of Baden-Powell's understanding of Scouting. Paying Scouts with badges for public service is the opposite of Baden-Powell's understanding of Scouting. A program that allows a Scout past 2nd Class (let alone Eagle) without ever walking into the woods with a pack on his back is the opposite of Baden-Powell's understanding of Scouting. I suspect that if any of you guys had to tag along with this Life Scout on Baden-Powell's "Eagle" expedition of 50 miles in wild country to hold your stupid "supervised SM Conference," you would understand how Baden-Powell's program of outdoor adversity molds character much differently than just having the correct indoor opinion about humor. John-in-KC writes: The young man is at best possessed of a seriously immature sense of humor. I first required stand-up comedian performances for Public Speaking Merit Badge when one of my Patrol Leaders was suspended from school for "sexual harassment" and forced to take sensitivity training as the result of a bad joke in class. I'd match his Scout Spirit against ANY of you guys. Gold Winger writes: However, if one had slipped me a note that said what that Scout's note said, I would have called the authorities immediately. Paper is the point. Baden-Powell designed Scouting to be a "non-scholastic" game. You know, no tedious paperwork like back when Scouting was as popular with boys as sports. Kudu "One of our methods in the Scout movement for taming a hooligan is to appoint him head of a Patrol. He has all the necessary initiative, the spirit and the magnetism for leadership, and when responsibility is thus put upon him it gives him the outlet he needs for his exuberance of activity, but gives it in a right direction."--Baden-Powell, from the article "Are Our Boys Degenerating?" circa 1918

Wingnut writes: Call his bluff... Approve his project and see if anything turns up under your chair. If you find a pay check call the cops ASAP. If not, it must have been bad humor after all. Call me old-fashioned, but society should have zero-tolerance for Wingnut's "If not" scenario. This Scout needs to get serious. Use the BSA's new "Patrol Method Adult Directing Leadership Style" to force him to watch biographies of his favorite comics, then have him work on requirements 1-4 of Public Speaking Merit Badge to be performed as stand-up at a local comedy club. If he gets jeered off the stage then he will have learned a valuable lesson: Bad humor is no laughing matter. Kudu

Eagletrek writes: I love my Patrol Box...had a real carpenter build it. Yes, it's heavy...I love to use it when I "plop" camp but I also pass it by when I'm headed out on a backpacking trip. The point of Lightweight Patrol Camping is NOT to buy TWO sets of equipment, but to use good quality "backpacking" equipment for "plop" camping. This about the relationship of the Patrol Method to weight. The heavier the equipment, the closer together the Patrols will be forced to camp and the more distracted the Patrols will be by outside forces. Nothing prevents a Patrol from dragging along Dutch ovens. See Lightweight Patrol Camping at: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/equipment/lightweight_camping.htm Kudu

jdsherlock writes: I think the patrol boxes work great. I think one of the main benefits of the patrol box is that it adds to the experience of camping in the outdoors. I feel that the use of plastic tubs really takes away from the historical realism of being in the outdoors...I have a period canvas tent, and carry a lot of hand forged equipment with me. I also tend to teach scouts using a lot of old methods, such as flint and steel to start fires. The use of wooden camp boxes fits right in with this style of camping, and gives the scouts more of a true outdoor experience. What Beavah describes as the "historical-reenactment campin' style" is the difference between the admittedly "certain romanticism in such things which can appeal to boys" and the "Traditional Scouting" or "Baden-Powell Scouting" movement that I admire. Traditional Scouting is defined as strictly based on the rules of Scouting as it was played at an arbitrary date such as 1938 (the year of Hillcourt's 3rd edition of Handbook for Scoutmasters and the last version of the rules of Scouting that Baden-Powell himself edited)...EXCEPT for changes in: 1) Health & Safety; 2) Environmental Concerns; and 3) Lightweight Camping technology. For Traditional Scouting the most important thing is to get the Patrols separated to encourage the strong Patrol Leadership that was "The ONLY Method of Scouting" before the introduction of Leadership Development in 1972. For Traditional Scouting then, lightweight "backpacking" equipment distributed to Patrol Members and carried to individual Patrol sites in their backpacks (NOT Patrol Boxes) is the way to go. See Lightweight Camping Equipment at: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/equipment/lightweight_camping.htm Stosh, Knot Head's experience with adult resistance to minimal equipment is almost universal. What are your plans for Patrol Equipment given your anticipated influx of new Scouts (and their parents)? Given this explosive growth, I believe that more than anything else, the weight of your equipment will determine the future of the Patrol Method in your Troop. Kudu

btphelps writes: Came across this info, written by Bela Banathy in his 1963 master's thesis, Parameters of a New Design in Leadership Development, which I thought I'd share. "In his book Scouting for Boys, Lord Baden-Powell, the founder of Scouting, established the principles of training junior leaders when he suggested that the Scoutmaster should select 'a party of six to eight youth or bright boys, and carefully instruct them in the details of peace-Scouting.' These boys, he then says, could act as patrol leaders in training each five to six more boys in Scouting. Leadership Development destroyed this "Patrol of Patrol Leaders" in 1972. In all the world, the most detailed and ingenious version of this training was written by William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt who had learned Baden-Powell Scouting as a boy in his native Denmark (the "Patrol Method" was not introduced in the BSA until 1923). This BSA Patrol of Patrol Leaders was called the "Green Bar Patrol." It was composed of the Scoutmaster acting as Patrol Leader, the SPL acting as Assistant Patrol Leader, and the Patrol Leaders acting as Green Bar Patrol members. It is still used in Troops from Canada to Ireland to Australia that use Baden-Powell's actual methods. The course called "Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol" took six months to complete. Typically Green Bar Patrol Meetings would be held once a month after the PLC. A Patrol Leader learned how to run a "Real Patrol" by taking part in an ideal Patrol run by the Scoutmaster. After each Green Bar Patrol Meeting, the new Patrol Leader returned to his own Patrol to hold the same meeting and try the specific techniques he had just learned. If he ran into problems with group dynamics, then THAT was the time for the Scoutmaster, SPL, and/or older Patrol Leaders to discuss theory--when the young Patrol Leader had a very practical need for the formula: 1. Be a Leader 2. Be a Friend 3. Be Ahead It is very important to understand that the Green Bar Patrol did not sit around and discuss leadership formulas just in case a Patrol Leader might need an abstraction next month, or in some other "leadership" role later in life. Training based on the practical and very specific application of Scoutcraft Skills for single Patrol use in the great outdoors is what distinguishes Traditional "Patrol Leader Training" from Leadership Development's "Junior Leader Training." Before 1972 the BSA defined a "Real Patrol" as a Patrol that hiked on its own without adult supervision. Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol was a model of exactly how to hold a Patrol Meeting; and then how to use a Patrol Meeting to plan and hold a Patrol Hike. Patrol Hikes typically passed the time with Scoutcraft activities including some that counted toward Patrol-Based Advancement (which before Leadership Development was the Patrol Leader's job). The six month training course ended with the ultimate Patrol Hike, sometimes called a Patrol Camp or Patrol Overnight. This was the true test of the most mature and gifted Patrol Leaders' ability to lead without adult supervision. "Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol" can be found at: http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm In 1972 Traditional "Patrol Leader Training" was destroyed to make room for Leadership Development's "Junior Leader Training." An example of this new "one theory fits all temporary positions of responsibility" idea was the "Nine Leadership Skills." See: http://www.inquiry.net/leadership/9skills.htm The use of the term "junior leaders" as in the Bela Banathy quote above, is one way to spot Leadership Development masquerading as the tradition of Baden-Powell's principles of training. Above all else the object of B-P's training was to identify the very strongest natural leader and teach him how to operate a Patrol independently of adult supervision. Kudu "One of our methods in the Scout movement for taming a hooligan is to appoint him head of a Patrol. He has all the necessary initiative, the spirit and the magnetism for leadership, and when responsibility is thus put upon him it gives him the outlet he needs for his exuberance of activity, but gives it in a right direction."--Baden-Powell, from the article "Are Our Boys Degenerating?" circa 1918

As far as the new Switchback Scout pants go, our Troop started using similar green nylon zip-offs ten years ago. We sold parents on the idea because they can be used for school. Unlike the official dress-designer version that preceded them, boys are not embarrassed to death to wear them in public. This is really the biggest problem with them: Scouts like them so much that they wear them everywhere, so they eventually fade from constant washing. Eagle92 writes: I would modify what Beavah said. Yes adult relationships are important, but I would focus that on the older scouts. They are the leaders in the troop, and THEY should be the role models and examples for the younger scouts. Adults should focus on the older ones. I agree with Eagle92 and I would take it a step further. You need to focus on Top Dog: the alpha male of your older Scouts who still goes camping. Since the Scouts who "goof off" seem to have won out over the Scouts you describe as "serious about getting things done," then Top Dog is probably one of your trouble-makers, and most likely Top Dog does not wear his Uniform Maybe Top Dog has already had his "turn" at being SPL, or maybe nobody votes for Top Dog because he is too scary (as was true in my last Troop). If Top Dog is not SPL then find a way to start consulting him about ideas for campouts, first one-on-one, and then in front of the other Scouts. For good or bad, Top Dog is the true leader of your Troop and your greatest potential resource. Note that a common problem with "boy-run" as it is understood in the States, is that boys don't always KNOW what they want to do, and they get bored because they can't think of any cool new ideas. If campout attendance is down because you always do the same things, try both Baden-Powell and "Green Bar Bill's" advice and get your Troop into Wide Games! Wide Games usually appeal to natural leaders like Top Dog (mostly because the adults can't keep up). Note that in Traditional Scouting it is the ADULT's JOB to first research the Wide Games and then explain how a half-dozen of them work first to Top Dog and then (if possible) have Top Dog explain a few to the Troop. Boys will not as a rule learn new games by reading them. See Wide Games: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/games/wide/index.htm and Night Games: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/night/index.htm Kudu One of our methods in the Scout movement for taming a hooligan is to appoint him head of a Patrol. He has all the necessary initiative, the spirit and the magnetism for leadership, and when responsibility is thus put upon him it gives him the outlet he needs for his exuberance of activity, but gives it in a right direction. --Baden-Powell, from the article "Are Our Boys Degenerating?" circa 1918

btphelps writes: Kudu, I'm not sure where to you have gained your expertise on "White Stag's academic "Telling-Selling-Consulting-Delegating-Joining" but your derisive comments are out of bounds. Oh? Out of bounds? I had no idea! What other than modern manager ad hominem logic makes my "derisive" comments "out of bounds"? John-in-KC wrote that we need management "experts" like you because "modern leadership" has moved from "hierarchical" to "collaboration." To this false version of Scout history I countered with the example of Green Bar Bill's fundamental "don't be the Big Boss ... share your leadership" advice that dates back to the BSA's belated introduction of the Patrol Method itself. It does not take any "expertise" to see that the Patrol Method's old fashioned "1. Be a Leader, 2. Be a Friend, 3. Be Ahead" is more useful to a boy than abstract business manager words like "Consulting" and "Delegating." btphelps writes: I do not feel compelled to necessarily explain the program to you specifically. If you do not have statistics that indicate that your program increases the frequency of ADULT-FREE Patrol Meetings, Patrol Hikes, Patrol Campouts, and Patrol Advancement (the step-by-step training for which Leadership Development killed in 1972), then you need not feel compelled to explain anything. Really, it's OK btphelps writes: You do not seem to ever alter your opinion. That is an interesting personal insult, since just before your initial post in this thread, I wrote: I stated that I never hear how servant leadership facilitates an increase in the distance between Patrols, or Patrol Cooking at summer camp, to which Stosh replied that it does indeed help the Troop he serves accomplish those ends. So from this it would appear that SL is worthy of further study by those of us who value B-P's and Green Bar Bill's Traditional ("Real") Patrols. In some circles that would qualify as "altering my opinion," although my interest would be to lean the SL jargon for the B-P and Green Bar Bill training that already existed long before SL was invented (to prove --as in "Big Boss" above-- the definition of a management consultant as someone who borrows your watch and tells you what time it is). Perhaps you are simply clueless. After all you describe the post-adolescent attack ("Ever new idea is to be used to insult people. White Stag is evil") of your earnest disciple as "subtle parody" If so, here is a pointer: If you believe that my posts are (as you say) "a bit tedious and redundant" then just ignore them: On the left side of your screen there is a link called "Ignore this user" which will greatly enhance your Scouter.Com experience. Ignorance is bliss! My work is intended only for volunteers with an interest in how Scouting worked back when it offered real adventure and almost every American boy wanted to join. btphelps writes: So let it be recognized that we strive very hard to provide participants an outdoors experience utilizing the patrol method requiring them to use camp craft skills and live together outdoors for an entire week. The problem with that statement is that you refuse to comment on the BSA's modern manager definition of the "Patrol Method adult direction leadership style" as adults bypassing Patrol Leaders so they can walk around directing individual Scouts (what every group "needs" when the adults want to pack up and go home). An example might be found in your glowing account: btphelps writes: One of them described how so many of her 11-12 year-old candidates during summer camp were convinced they could not complete the 5 mile hike, but who went on to do it anyway, and the increased self-esteem, enthusiasm, and excitement they experienced as a result. If from the term "five mile hike" we can assume that you are talking about BSA Scouts (in the former British Empire the 2nd Class standard is eight miles), then why do you give as an example of the success of your program a female leading their five mile hike rather than the Scouts' Patrol Leader? Is "increased self-esteem, enthusiasm, and excitement they experienced as a result" your justification for substituting the new "Patrol Method adult direction leadership style" for Real Patrols? Finally, I just had to include this gem: btphelps writes: Is the definition of sharing leadership as expressed by the rubric "Telling-Selling-Consulting-Delegating-Joining" still valid? Given its alignment with million-dollar programs like Situational Leadership, we believe it does. That, I think, says it ALL! Robert Mazzuca himself used a similar boast in his USA Today interview: "We recognize the evolving science of leadership. We've had CEOs on our board say they want to send their people to Wood Badge, our adult leader training program, because we use state-of-the-art techniques." This I believe is the real explanation for the sustained and determined effort to replace Traditional Patrol Leader Training with "modern leadership." It just makes sense to millionaire Scouting executives and the millionaire CEOs on the national BSA board to believe that boys want to learn how to be just like them in "million-dollar" manager school, rather than organizing their own five mile hikes (which can be better led by female "Managers of Learning"). And what dad stuck in a boring manager job does not want to think of all those management classes he nodded through as having some great value to boys, given that the "alignment" of consulting and delegation with "million-dollar programs like Situational Leadership" proves their "validity"? Kudu

RangerTwrites: When the Eagle award has come to mean so little in todays society it is time for a change. I have had this discussion personally with Chief Scout Mazzucca when he was visiting our council recently and he agreed the program is in serious need of revamping. I think Mazzucca eliminating the program departments at National is the first step since they had been doing such poor jobs. RangerT, Thanks for your comments. We agree that the cheapening of Eagle Scout is a result of the lack of a vigorous outdoor program. Any indoor boy can go to Boy Scout summer school and earn Eagle without ever once walking into the woods with a pack on his back. I have not met Mazzucca personally as you have, but reading between the lines of last month's USA Today article his vision of revamping seems to be more of the same shift away from outdoor skills toward "Leadership Development" that began with its invention in 1972, the year after he came to work for the BSA. For instance, the interview begins by characterizing the test of the tragedy in Iowa as the triumph of leadership skills rather than outdoor skills. Mazzuca then minimizes outdoor skills as "rubbing sticks together," and insists that all that really counts is adult association with the goal of leadership: "Our goal is not to teach someone to rub two sticks together and make a fire. But when you rub two sticks together and make a fire side by side with an adult of good character, you're going to learn about who you are and go on to lead men." When asked about Scouting becoming as obsolete and irrelevant as the buggy whip (the bread and butter of selling management fads), Mazzuca replies, "You can teach a kid about character and leadership using aerospace and computers. The secret is to get them side by side with adults of character. We run the risk of becoming irrelevant if we don't adapt to things that attract kids today...." Contrast this image of Scouting as learning "character and leadership" by hanging around with adults indoors with the opening lines of the fifth edition of the BSA's Handbook for Boys that present Scouting as OUTDOOR ADVENTURE. "Have you ever dreamed of hiking the wilderness trails that were worn down under moccasin feet hundreds of years ago? Do you hear in your imagination the almost noiseless dip-dip of Indian canoe paddles in that stream where you fish today? "Have you stopped to think of the pioneer wagons whose great wheels cut the tracks for our present roads? "You can follow those trails, those streams and tracks! You can have your share of that adventure. "Wherever you live, you are not too far from the woods and prairie, the desert or mountain--the country where once the Indians roamed and where the great Scouts of yesterday did their part in making America. There is some place where you can go camping and feel that you are in company with men like Rogers' Rangers, Lewis and Clark, Daniel Boone, Davy Crockett and Pere Marquette. "This adventure awaits you in Scouting! "The first streaks of the sun slant down over the ridge and rouse you from deep sleep to greet a new day. You stretch and worm out of your bedding to dress. Outside your lean-to or tent you pause to drink in the glory of the sunrise, and fill your lungs deep with the clean morning air. "Suddenly you notice a slight movement in an upwind thicket. Gradually you make out a young deer grazing peacefully. Why, with all its sharp sense of smell and hearing, has it not noticed you? "You know--because your're a Scout." Perhaps under Robert Mazzuca's progressive leadership, the centennial edition of the "Boy Scout Handbook" will open with HIS vision of adventure: "Have you ever dreamed of sitting indoors in front of a computer screen side by side with adults of character?" Kudu

evmori writes: Personally, I don't like the idea of using management tools as leadership development for the BSA. Yes the BSA is a business but the leadership that needs to be taught to the volunteers isn't the same as what corporate America needs. The focus is completely different! Defenders of Leadership Development spin the practicality of using management tools to run Patrols by pointing to their alleged success in both the corporate world and in the military. The fatal flaw in this comparison is that Leadership Development's power over the Patrol Method is maintained by teaching Scouts to expect payment for their leadership in the form of Position of Responsibility (POR) credit for Advancement. This in turn drives the six-month election cycles that the BSA now promotes in its literature with suggestions like "Many Troops hold elections every six months." To the manager consultant mind, the primary function of a Patrol is to teach Leadership Development. Six month election cycles drive rapid turn-over in Patrol Leaders which gives more ungifted boys a chance to learn "how to be a leader" with helpful adults only a short "modern" distance away! I wonder how many of the marvelous books on business management that shape Wood Badge and Scout training suggest the same thing? How many of these trendy manager gurus suggest to their corporate clients that they hold regular elections so that every secretary and mail clerk can vote for their manager (Patrol Leader) and the manager's manager (SPL) every six months? To the Unsinkable Rubber Ducky mind, if the company becomes less efficient then the secretaries and mail clerks all learn an important lesson about popularity contests like Scouts do when their six-month popularity contests lead to burned meals, wet sleeping bags, or even worse (pure boredom). The comparison to military leadership is equally bogus. In which of btphelps' references do the privates vote for their immediate superior and for their commander's commander every six months? The cost of using Patrols as little management labs is that Patrols no longer function independently, just as corporations would go bankrupt and armies would loose wars if they used the BSA Leadership Development Method. evmori writes: I know "The study of leadership as an academic discipline actually exists." I just do see the need to study it in the BSA. What is needed is practical application. To which John-in-KC replies: Sooner or later, techniques themselves become obsolete. We don't cut browse beds anymore, do we? Do we generally use helioarc signalling anymore? Do we dig fire trenches? Yes, someone, an expert someone, needs to revisit courseware and models now and again. Gee, who could have predicted that leadership fad promoters would play the "Leave No Trace" card to suggest that Traditional Patrol Leader Training is obsolete? Oh yeah, the second reply in this thread: The bread and butter of servant leadership is that the two greatest minds in the history of Scouting (Baden-Powell and Green Bar Bill) are "old-fashioned" (they dug trenches around their tents, didn't they?) and therefore their training techniques must be replaced with the theory of leadership "experts." John-in-KC writes: You see the practical application every time a PL sets down and they establish the roster for the next campout. There's a hierarchical way to do that and a collaborative way to do that. Modern leadership practice is moving away from hierarchical, especially at the work team and project level. The idea that "modern leadership practice" in the "work team and project level" has anything new to offer Boy Scout Patrols is false because human nature has NOT changed in the hundred years since OUTDOOR Patrol leadership was invented. Academic leadership "science" advocates who do not STUDY history are forced to INVENT it! Experts have nothing to offer Patrol Leaders that was not said better in boy-language back in the first half of the last century: "Line up meetings, hikes, projects, Good Turns and ways and means of keeping your boys interested--dong something, getting somewhere, being somebody. "This of course doesn't mean that you should be the 'Big Boss' of the Patrol, planning everything yourself, ordering everybody around. On the contrary, your Patrol should be a small democracy in which every Scout has a chance to take part in the planning, to practice leadership, to learn to do things for himself. "Be the leader, the fellow who points the way--but share your leadership. That's the way to get every single boy in the gang to do his part in anything the Patrol undertakes" (Handbook for Patrol Leaders, William Hillcourt, page 3). For those who collect mental checklists of leadership, the pre-1972 Patrol Method model (on page 8) was: 1. Be a Leader 2. Be a Friend 3. Be Ahead Be honest: Which model is more useful to a young Patrol Leader alone with his Patrol in the field, The Patrol Method's "1. Be a Leader, 2. Be a Friend, 3. Be Ahead"; or the White Stag's academic "Telling-Selling-Consulting-Delegating-Joining"? Kudu(This message has been edited by Kudu)

Before we launch into a discussion of teaching generic "Leadership Skills" in outdoorsy settings, read my last paragraph carefully. 1) GBB (Green Bar Bill) was not allowed to restore the pre-1972 Methods of Scouting. Among other things (like "Advancement" as a subset of the "Activities" method), the "Leadership Development Method" was allowed to stand as a separate Method of Scouting "equal" to the Patrol Method itself. 2) Patrol Leader Training, which was designed just for Patrol Leaders (not "Junior Leaders") was never restored, meaning that Hillcourt was not allowed to bring back training designed to run what he called "Real Patrols," those that hiked and camped without adult supervision (this is the whole point of the 300 foot option, a watered-down version of Patrol Camping). It is significant that Leadership Development has removed any mention of Patrol Leaders (or the Patrol Method itself) from the basic training session on the "Patrol Method." Something that Bob White knows very well is "simply factual"! Kudu

Eagle92 writes: ...correct me if I'm wrong but the main argument, in the classical sense, is that BSA has watered down leadership development and the patrol method in order to have more emphasis as a result of the 70s. The problem is that Leadership Development was INVENTED in 1972, not that it was watered down This new "Method of Scouting" replaced "Patrol Leader Training" which under William Hillcourt was a subset of "Boy Leadership," which was in turn a subset of the Patrol Method. See the outline of the history of the Methods of Scouting at: http://inquiry.net/adult/methods/index.htm Eagle92 writes: Also although national preaches patrol method, in training it doesn't emphasis patrol method enough. Am I correct in this? The real problem with training is that National redefines the term "Patrol Method" to mean Leadership Development theory, in the same way that suburban streets like "Fox Run Lane," "Deer Meadow Drive," or "Wildflower Way" are named after the very things that the streets destroyed. An extraordinary example of this is "Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmaster Leader Specific Training." If you examine the course outline for the "Patrol Method" session, it never once mentions the "Patrol Method" beyond a fake Baden-Powell quote at the very beginning (B-P never used the term "Patrol Method"). Nor does it ever ONCE mention a "Patrol Leader" or what he does. The "Patrol Method" session teaches adult leadership styles! It gives the example of a Scoutmaster directing some Scouts to put out a campfire with water. Nowhere does it say or even imply that this particular adult "leadership style" is the very OPPOSITE of the Patrol Method. Is it any wonder that in thousands of Troops adults take over on Sunday morning and yell at the Scouts without even pretending to work though the SPL or the Scouts' Patrol Leaders? And why should they? In their "Patrol Method" training session they were taught to use the adult "leadership style" that the Scouts "need." Eagle92 writes: Also it is an acknowledged fact that BSA screwed up in the 70s and GBB had to become a retread again to get the BSA somewhat back on its feet by writing the 1979 handbook. Actually all that anyone ever acknowledges is that allowing Scouts to earn Eagle Scout without EVER going on a SINGLE campout corresponded with a sharp decline in membership (except in liberal churches where the number of UUA Sponsoring Organizations spiked to its meager but all-time record high for the entire century). GBB (Green Bar Bill) was brought in to restore outdoor activities. Although he is famous for the Patrol Method he was NOT allowed to restore the pre-1972 Methods of Scouting (above), including Patrol Leader Training. This means that the "Leadership Development Method" which was designed to teach Scouts who had never been camping how to be a "leader" was allowed to stand: "In general, Patrol Leader training should concentrate on leadership skills rather than on Scoutcraft Skills. The Patrol will not rise and fall on the Patrol Leader's ability to cook, follow a map, or do first aid, but it very definitely depends on his leadership skill (Scoutmaster's Handbook [1972], page 155).

GaHillBilly writes: But, I hope your understanding of B-P is better than it seems to be of Xianity. Not many of the Church Fathers (or Reformers!) would welcome being accused of claiming that men are "inherently evil" in the sense, 'totally evil', that your comment seems to imply. I don't even think Golding went that far. Point taken, but I think I give a reasonable broad-brushed popular culture explanation of how Golding's views on the nature of nature, citizenship, and boys are basically the opposite of those of Baden-Powell. I did not mean to imply "totally evil," btw. GaHillBilly writes: B-P was educated during the late 1800's, a time of great philosophical ferment in semi-educated English-speaking circles. One of the driving forces was a naively optimistic view of evolution as having an "upward direction". This concept was neither Christian nor scientific, but it was popular and pervasive and apparently very, very appealing to ruling members of the British Empire. In fact, this idea manages to be heresy with respect to BOTH Christianity and scientific principles. Funny that you should mention evolution and "heresy" Lord Baden-Powell's father, the Rev. Baden Powell (no hyphen), was the first notable cleric in England to declare in favor of Darwin. He died facing charges of heretical preaching. As to the quality of Rev. Powell's work, Darwin admired Powell's writings as he indicated very clearly in his introduction to the third edition of The Origin of Species. The best source of information about the spiritual nature of Scouting can be found in Tim Jeal's biography, Baden-Powell. I have posted some relevant passages on The Inquiry Net, with links to a couple of the original works that I was able to track down. Given your interests I think you will find The Order of Nature especially fascinating. After I purchased the (then) 140 year-old book and scanned the contents, I began to clean up the optical scanning until someone else posted a completed version. See: http://inquiry.net/ideals/beads.htm GaHillBilly writes: It's my impression that B-P's thought has more in common with their half-baked optimistic evolutionism, than with either orthodox Christianity or scientific principles. B-P's writings are certainly not on the same theological or scientific level as his father's, nor did he have the courage of his father's religious convictions as the above URL indicates. But if he had been an academic instead of a soldier, he would never have invented Scouting! That being said, my favorite of B-P's religious writings is his chapter in Scoutmastership (the USA title) on "Service for Others" (AKA "Practical Christianity"). See: http://inquiry.net/traditional/b-p/scoutmastership/service.htm GaHillBilly writes: So . . . can you point me to some texts documenting B-P's thinking regarding PL selection? Baden-Powell wrote very specific rules about how Scouting works but he left it to others to write the "how to" books (to the best of which he would write an introduction or forward). Once you understand the small specifics of how his program works, his numerous short articles are understood in a very different way than if your experience is limited to BSA training and practice. Therefore I would recommend that you download a copy his final PO&R, and only after your eyes begin to glaze over then purchase a few of the available books of Baden-Powell quotes from his published articles. Of the later, my favorite is: One of our methods in the Scout movement for taming a hooligan is to appoint him head of a Patrol. He has all the necessary initiative, the spirit and the magnetism for leadership, and when responsibility is thus put upon him it gives him the outlet he needs for his exuberance of activity, but gives it in a right direction." --Baden-Powell, from the article "Are Our Boys Degenerating?" circa 1918 A 17MB (72 dpi) scan of the 1938 Canadian version of Baden-Powell's final edit of his Policy, Organisation, & Rules (PO&R) can be found online at the following URL. http://www.scoutscan.com/history/scoutbook_72dpi.pdf An easier to read 70 MB (150 dpi) version can be found at: http://www.scoutscan.com/history/scoutbook_150dpi.pdf Under the Canadian numbering system the reference for SPL and Patrol Leader selection (B-P considered the office of SPL to be purely optional, btw) would be Sec. 58 & 59 [Note, "Troop Leader" = SPL]: Sec. 58. -- Troop Leader A Troop Leader may, if desired, be appointed by the Scoutmaster, in consultation with the Court of Honour, to perform any duties compatible with these rules which may be assigned him. The following qualifications are required-- (a) Ability to lead. (b) Service as a Patrol Leader for at least six months. © The First Class Badge. (d) A general knowledge of Scouting for Boys. ... Sec. 59. -- Patrol Leader A Patrol Leader is a Scout appointed by the Scoutmaster, in consultation with the Court of Honour or the Patrol concerned, to take charge of a Patrol of Scouts. Kudu

GaHillBilly writes: So . . . if I had a popular, but skill-less senior Scout who is destined to be PL of a new patrol being formed, and I parked his patrol several hundred feet away from adult resources so that his patrol mates had to rely on his (and their) lack of skills . . . The reason that Leadership Development is such a destructive force on the Patrol Method is that it is based on the conviction that the PURPOSE of the Patrol Method is to teach Leadership Development! This post-1972 assumption is enforced through the POR (Position of Responsibility) requirements which encourage regular popularity contests so that "everybody gets to be a leader," including skill-less Scouts. The 21st century assumption that a popular but skill-less senior Scout has ANY business being a Patrol Leader is based on the modern idea that "boy-led" means that adults should remain strictly "hands-off" and not influence popularity contests. This way Scouts can "learn from their mistakes." Passive much? My point is that if you started from Baden-Powell's 300 foot standard and worked toward the Patrol structure you would need to make that practical, it would force Scouters to read the older BSA texts and find that adults are supposed to be involved in the selection process as was the fundamental basis of BOTH Baden-Powell's "Patrol System" AND William Hillcourt's "Patrol Method." Note that I suggested starting from 1/10th that distance (30 feet), based on the assumption that Leadership Development (including the current Scoutmaster-specific training course) has dumbed the Patrol Method down by a factor of 90% GaHillBilly writes: I'm not sure that the parents of those boys would view the difficulties their sons would experience that weekend as an acceptable outcome, however. Yeah, this victim mentality is why everybody camps so close together now, isn't it? Teaching every boy "how to be a leader" is considered more important than creating Patrols where every boy gets the opportunity to work under the very best leader in his Patrol, the Scout who is the most talented and Trustworthy to the adult eye (in consultation with the Scouts). jet526 writes: Didn't William Golding write the manual for this form of scouting? William Golding's intention was to illustrate the Christian principle that all humans are inherently evil because of original sin. When placed in nature, free of the constraints of civilization, even those with the most outwardly angelic appearance (a group of boy sopranos in a church choir) will abandon good citizenship and revert to their true bestial nature. Lord Baden-Powell's movement was based on the opposite Christian principle, that humans are inherently good and that good citizenship can be learned through the curative combination of something he called the "Religion of the Woods" (the observation of "God's Creation" --the forces of nature-- close-up through the detailed study of Scoutcraft) and "Practical Christianity" (Service for Others: good works without thought for compensation--including the corrupting payment to Scouts of advancement credit for service project hours, and months of leadership). The purpose of the Scoutmaster's influence on the Scouts' choice of the very best Patrol Leader (and to stick with him as long as he is their very best outdoor leader) in BOTH the Patrol System and the Patrol Method was to most efficiently get each Patrol of Scouts out practicing the Religion of the Woods (Scoutcraft badges worn on the right side of the Uniform) and Practical Christianity (Public Service badges worn on the left side of the Uniform). NOT to teach management "leadership" skills to a "skill-less senior Scout who is destined to be PL." Kudu

jblake47 writes: So if one is going to move to the boy-led program, put the 300' between them and the adults. Yeah, 300 feet between the Scouts and the adults would go a long way toward moving a Troop to "boy led." But the advantage of putting distance between the Patrols is that it forces each Patrol to be more self-sufficient and makes a poor choice in Patrol Leader more obvious. With the Patrols close together they can still be "SPL Led," which is the "Troop Method" with a mini-adult in charge. That is NOT the Patrol Method. The point of trying out Baden-Powell's advice of separating the Patrols by 300 feet (if only once in a while as an experiment) is that it simulates a Patrol Campout (except that adults are now 300 feet away), which before the invention of Leadership Development in 1972 was the ultimate goal of BSA Patrol Leader Training. Kudu

Bob White writes: But Kudu....The Scoutmaster Handbook, the Patrol Leaders Handbook, the Boy scout Handbook, The Guide to Safe Scouting, The Scoutmaster Specific training...all endorse and support independent patrol activities. Yes, Bob White, we agree that these BSA publications all endorse and support independent Patrol activities. Why do you always suggest that this is a missing element of the Scouting program when it is in nearly every Boy Scout related training and resource??? Because no BSA related training or resource currently in use or in print tells Patrol Leaders or adults exactly (in the pre-1972 step-by-step fashion) how to do it. The problem with "Leadership Development" is that it is based on the indoor assumption that we merely need to check outdoor skills off an advancement list (that allows any indoor boy to earn Eagle Scout without ever walking into the woods with a pack on his back); then teach everyone some mental checklist, and a Patrol is good to go off without adults. This is irresponsible and we are only one "Lost Patrol" headline from Utah away from seeing the official BSA support for independent Patrol activities go the way of the First Class Journey. Kudu