Kudu

Do you allow the Scouts to bring their own tents? The investment is a lot less and the pressure to use the Troop Method (Troop Quartermaster, Troop Committee bylaws regarding tent care, etc., etc.) is greatly reduced if you allow the Patrols to take care of their own shelter. We always got by with a few old Troop tents for new Scouts who do not have a friend who owns his own tent. Kudu

My last Council banned white gas after an accident. A Scout was blowing on the embers of a campfire. Another Scout poured gasoline on it and it exploded in the first Scout's face, causing horrible burns and permanent disfigurement. The Council's ban on white gas made it impossible to offer backwoods advanced Okpik cold weather training because propane does not work very well in extreme cold. So the director of the Okpik program worked out an arrangement with the Council in which white gas was allowed only if an adult in a unit holds a liquid fuels card earned by attending a liquid fuels safety course. So if it turns out that your Council does indeed ban white gas, look into finding a group of trainers willing to offer a similar permit option. Kudu

At local Scout Camp campfire sites we used 12 old-fashioned torches (the kind you see in movies) to represent the points of Scout Law, as in the Court of Honor ceremony at The Inquiry Net: http://inquiry.net/advancement/ceremonies/candlelight.htm You wrap strips of cloth around thick long sticks (about 6 feet), wrap them with some wire, and soak the torches in buckets of kerosene. Make sure there are no overhanging branches because 12 - 16 torches generate a tremendous amount of heat. Well in advance, call you local Council office to find out if it conforms to its liquid fuel policies, then check with the camp ranger. Kudu

A Troop holding regular Patrol Leader elections is like a Little League team holding elections for pitcher after every game. The assumption is that it doesn't really matter how good a Patrol Leader is. In fact the politically correct position these days is that it is "wrong" for a Scoutmaster to judge which Scouts are the best leaders and to guide the Patrols in the direction of their own best leaders, as both Baden-Powell Troops AND the BSA did before 1972. Both Baden-Powell and the BSA also believed that the BEST Patrol Leader should remain Patrol Leader for as long as he is the best Patrol Leader! What an idea, huh? The BEST Patrol Leader should remain Patrol Leader for as long as he is the best Patrol Leader. Regular elections serve the faulty assumption that the purpose of Patrols is to give every boy an opportunity to learn one minute manager theories that hype corporate CEOs as great "leaders." The result is sub-prime Patrols in which Patrol Leaders never organize after-school Patrol Meetings to plan their own weekend Patrol Hikes to work on advancement, or lead Patrol "overnights" (if only on Troop campouts). This was the BSA's DEFINTION of a "Real Patrol" before the invention of Leadership Development in 1972. The Little League equivalent (of holding elections for pitcher after every game) would be to give every boy on the team the opportunity to learn some Dennis Waitley "winner" theory. And then dumb it down so that untalented "pitchers" can be successful. PORs have dumbed the "Patrol Method" down from the primary source of adventure in Scouting before 1972, to duty roster stuff while camping in the corner of a small campsite under the watchful eyes and ears of misled adult "leadership experts." Not much more fun than Cub Scouts, but most adult "leadership experts" seem to think this is a GOOD thing because sub-prime Patrols operate within adult comfort levels. Think of how much safer Little League would be if we dumbed pitching down to T-ball by holding regular elections! Kudu

jblake47 writes: "Kudu, do you find that team-building isn't something that is developed with activities in the "Real Patrols", but is already there?" Leadership Development is based on the idea that all groups have similar dynamics. If I remember correctly, the Scoutmaster-specific "Patrol Method" session never even uses the term "Patrol" to refer to a group of Scouts. It always uses a generic term like "troop/patrol/group." The message is that a "Patrol" is just a convenient unit in which to practice "modern" manager skills. Sitting in a circle talking about how your parents picked your first name is "modern leadership;" organizing a Patrol Hike on Saturday to find "10 signs of wildlife" without adult supervision is "old-fashioned." I submit that the activities of Real Patrols naturally build teams. Why practice "team-building" exercises when you can play Traditional Wide Games? jblake47 writes: "My biggest problem this year is to try and convince some of the strong leadership boys from the patrols that they should start their own patrols of new boys this coming Blue/Gold season, not an easy sell." I identify the strongest available potential leader and set aside some time to talk. I tell him why I need his help, and I recite the specific situations over the years where I saw him display leadership. I explain why these actions show that he would make a good Patrol Leader. Then I ask point blank "What would it take to get you to lead a Patrol of new Scouts?" I already know who his friends are, so while he is thinking of a reply I name at least two other Scouts in his posse (one of whom would make a good Quartermaster) and I suggest that they form the core of his new Patrol. Then I suggest that he take some time to think about it. I ask if he has any objections to me talking to the Scouts that I just named. I meet with each of them individually and ask him if he would be willing to help, and I ask what he thinks it would take to make it happen. Boys like to be in the role of consultant. We do not hold regular elections, so the best Patrol Leaders usually serve for as long as they continue to be the best. Kudu

>>I haven't staffed NYLT

DeanRx writes: "2) With regards to the religion aspect, Baden Powell was EXTREMELY precise in his guidance to scouts when he founded the organization. He basically believed that a person without an acceptance of a higher power can not and will not grow to reach their full potential in life and thus will not become the best citizen possible." If Baden-Powell was "EXTREMELY precise" about kicking boys out of Scouting because they don't believe in God, then it should be easy to find that rule, shouldn't it? A 17MB (72 dpi) scan of the 1938 Canadian version of Baden-Powell's Policy, Organisation, & Rules (the last one he personally edited) can be found online at the following URL. http://www.scoutscan.com/history/scoutbook_72dpi.pdf An easier to read 70 MB (150 dpi) version can be found at: http://www.scoutscan.com/history/scoutbook_150dpi.pdf The reason that Baden-Powell did NOT kick children out of Scouting because of their religious beliefs (or lack there-of) was that in his view a boy could not help becoming the "best possible citizen" if he studied Scoutcraft (the "Religion of the Back Woods") and Public Service (sometimes called "Practical Christianity"). See: http://inquiry.net/ideals/beads.htm The taunt that if you don't like the BSA's religious polices you can go join (or start) a group that has different views is disingenuous because Congress is widely interpreted as having established the BSA religious corporation with protection against competition by international Scouting associations that offer Scouting the way that Baden-Powell intended it to be done. Details of a significant challenge to the BSA's monopoly on American Scouting by "YouthScouts" can be found at: http://youthscouts.org/districtcourt.html Even if the legal peril of establishing a free marketplace for Scouting in the United States is removed, it may not change much. The reason that the BSA's policies are what they are is because in the last hundred years liberal churches have NEVER established BSA Scout Troops (or rival Scout-like associations like the "Royal Rangers") in any significant numbers. Simply put, establishing Scout Troops in the United States is a conservative impulse. This is the opposite of countries like Germany! Rather than complaining about the BSA's membership policies, unravel this enigma and you may have accomplished something. Kudu

The Inquiry Net! http://www.inquiry.net/OUTDOOR/campfire/helps/yells.htm

jet526 writes: "No wonder scouters don't have any idea of what the Patrol Method is." Increasingly Wood Badge leadership "experts" define the "Patrol Method" as a vehicle or place to practice "leadership skills." In other words, the "Patrol Method" is Leadership Development's play thing. Hold an election every six months, camp in the corner of a tiny campsite, and call it "The Patrol Method." Could a Cub Scout ask for anything more? jet526 writes: "They will continue through their term with on going Patrol Leader Training." Jet, What will you use for this Patrol Leader Training? Kudu

jblake47 writes: "My senior most scout having returned from NYLT stated it was the worst training he has had when it came to boy-led, patrol-method, and has been thus researching back into historical BSA material to "find out how it was really done"....Just this past week he snagged up a copy of inquiry.net's patrol leader training and will be organizing that for the boys in the next month rather than the TLT material." Apples and Oranges! The BSA replaced the "Patrol Method" with the "Leadership Development" Method. Buy a copy of the Scoutmaster-specific training course and read the session on the Patrol Method. The chapter does not even MENTION Patrol Leaders or Scout Patrols! The Patrol Leader Training course on The Inquiry Net is the exact opposite of BSA "Leadership Development" courses: "Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol" teaches Patrol Leaders how to lead what the historical BSA called a "Real Patrol." The Scoutmaster shows (by doing) the Patrol Leaders how to run PATROL ADVANCEMENT through PATROL MEETINGS, PATROL HIKES, and PATROL CAMPOUTS. See: http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm I haven't staffed NYLT, but it is probably like all BSA "leadership" training, including Scoutmaster-specific. The idea is that all managers (hyped as "leaders") use the same techniques to run any "group," be it the Raven Patrol or a department at Enron or Lehman Brothers. However, NYLT at my last Council was run by old geezers who ran the NYLT course like the old Wood Badge Course (intentional perpetual confusion): Patrols were separated by about 300 feet and left to fend for themselves. When they got hungry enough they figured out how to get supplies from the Course Quartermaster, organize their Patrol, cook for themselves, and get to classes early enough to avoid the bark and bite of Uncle Grumpy. Therefore, if your local NYLT totally immerses your Patrol Leaders in sink-or-swim Patrol Method, the course content does NOT matter. They could spend the week learning Klingon and come back with the same practical skills, because the Patrol Method is learned by LIVING the Patrol Method, NOT by studying "leadership" theory. What NYLT has to offer is a week in the company of the best Patrol Leaders in the Council. It sounds like your local course falls short. If the decision is pick one or the other: Patrol Leader Training OR NYLT, then pick Patrol Leader Training--or you will end up like the typical BSA Troop where a BSA "Real Patrol" (independent boy-led Patrol Advancement, Patrol Meetings, Patrol Hikes, and Patrol Campouts) is unheard of. Kudu

Buffalo Skipper writes: "Night games Friday and Saturday will definitely be in order. What do you think about making teams out of patrols? The SPL could pull that off, if suggested." Yes! Use the games to make the Patrol Method FUN Buffalo Skipper writes: "Should we also push a campfire program? Many of the boys see this as a chore rather than fun." Yeah, even gathering the wood can be a drag. I would not "push it." When the time seems right remember that sometimes it takes an adult getting up and entertaining the Troop for a while to get Scouts to realize they can do a better job For us one backpacking trip led to the discovery that two Scouts knew long stretches of Monty Python movies by heart and could turn them into entertaining two-person dialogues. This prompted four other Scouts to reveal that they had memorized 20 minute chunks of red-neck comedy specials. It is always surprising to discover the talents that are hidden in any Troop of ordinary Scouts if you think outside the rutted "skit" box. Some Camp Fire Resources: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/campfire/helps/index.htm Buffalo Skipper writes: "Next month we were going to have a formal Cook-off, which everyone is excited about. Any idea about what surprises I can throw out at them on this one? Like right before prep begins, hand them a roll of aluminum foil and say "No Pots!" or maybe right after they buy their food, we can tell the PL that everything must be cooked in a dutch oven?" How would such curves help build stable Patrols? I would place my energies into encouraging them to make plans in ways that make the Patrols self-sufficient. For a long time I offered to wash the Dutch Ovens for any Patrol that cooked in them, if they agreed to watch me clean them. By the time everyone realized how easy it is, Good Dutch Oven food had become a Troop Tradition. Good luck! Kudu

Buffalo Skipper writes: "The patrol method is the means by which these younger scouts will learn leadership, and I have no problem with letting them fail. But to let them fail without providing them with the right tools (knowledge) to succeed, is setting them up for failure, which will undermine my credibility and damage their self confidence. So where do I go from here? Skipper, in your initial post you said that you were "Just looking for a fresh perspective and some new ideas to consider." I would suggest this "new" idea: The Patrol is the primary source of ADVENTURE in Scouting. The Patrol Method is supposed to make Scouts HAPPY. We don't hear that much anymore. Look at some of the words you used in your most recent post: struggled, consequence, sidelines, replace, dilemma, allow, follow up, undermine, authority, leadership, interfere, problem, fail, failure, damage. These are not "party" words, Skipper. They come from thinking too much. They are the natural consequence of too much leadership theory. When we think of the Patrol Method as "the means by which these younger scouts will learn leadership" then, yeah, our job is going to be a big downer. It is going to be all about "letting them fail" to teach them some deep meaningful lesson about "leadership." The Patrol Method is FUN. It is a GAME. It is about ADVENTURE! If you are sincere about looking for a "fresh perspective" then why not (just as an experiment) separate those Patrols by maybe 50-100 feet and TAKE A VACATION FROM LEADERSHIP THEORY! If the SPL is incompetent, then why not just skip the "TLT" for a while? It doesn't sound like it has ever actually done your Troop any good. If your Scouts have never camped as Patrols before, or even shopped as Patrols for food, then I recommend that you NOT set them up for failure. If you really want to get to the Patrol Method, then you MUST show some leadership, which means TAKE CHARGE: 1) Meet with the Quartermasters, Patrol Leaders and SPL and announce that your job is to move the Troop to the Patrol Method at the next campout. Ask for their help, but make it clear that the Patrols will be separated. Don't waste time explaining the Patrol Method. 2) If you DO have anything resembling Quartermasters, spend at least one meeting with them checking things off checklists to make sure each Patrol has the right equipment (especially cooking gear and supplies). 3) Find the BEST cook in each Patrol (no matter whose "TURN" it is) and make sure each Patrol prepares a good menu that the cook wants to prepare. 4) If you do not have a tradition of Patrol shopping, then work though this as best you can. This is not the time to "teach them a lesson" about hunger as the consequence of poor planning. 5) At the campout spread those Patrols out. Make sure the adults are segregated away from them. 6) Find a place from where you can observe the Patrols without interruption. Bring two chairs (one for your SPL). Patrol Leaders are not created equal. See which Patrols work smoothly and which ones end up arguing. Take notes. If you are lucky your incompetent Patrol Leaders will step aside when the Patrol's REAL leader steps up. 7) You say that your SPL works well with the younger Scouts, so consider dispatching him if necessary to help the Patrol Leaders when conflicts arise. Remember that this is your vacation from leadership theory, so ask the SPL to help out in practical ways, not teach them some kind of leadership lesson. The idea is to have FUN, not to teach business theory. 8) If the Scouts don't have any planned activities, consider individual Patrol Hikes without adults. Then set aside some time for Wide Games. These are games that Baden-Powell designed to develop Patrols. Boys do NOT learn games by reading them, or having someone read the game to them. Pick 4-6 Wide Games for daylight, and another 4-6 Night Games for after dark. Explain each one to your Patrol Leaders IN YOUR OWN WORDS and have them pick one for the day and one for night. Wide Games: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/games/wide/index.htm Night Games: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/night/index.htm 9) On future campouts refer to your notes and allow the Patrols that work smoothly to camp further away than those that have not figured it out yet. All a Patrol REALLY needs to be happy is a good Cook and Quartermaster. A natural leader will emerge. If one Patrol Leader is always incompetent, consider asking the SPL to promote him so that the Patrol can pick a new PL. Don't teach them a lesson by making them suffer under a poor choice for six months. 10) The Patrol Method comes naturally to boys if you just separate the Patrols, and make sure they are prepared enough to be dry and well fed. It only seems complicated if you use Scouting as an excuse to teach theory. The time for theory is AFTER three or four successful campouts. AFTER they have figured most of it out for themselves. AFTER they discover their natural leader. AFTER they have the confidence of good experiences. Kudu

I once attended a national experimental version of the Train the Trainer course. This is the one where a gaggle of instructors wearing translucent yellow blouses waddled from table to table passing out colored construction paper, toy scissors, and edible paste as proud gold-looped BSA executives looked on from the sidelines. I think we were supposed to make "Patrol Flags," but to be fair I missed the point of the toy scissors and edible paste session because I was inspired to pen an essay for my "Train The Trainer Course Evaluation Form" regarding the shame that the BSA executives should feel for dumbing Scouting down to the Cub Scout level. Topics included: Summary of Training Techniques Rules for Discussion Leaders Eight Requirements for Training Leaders Trainer Characteristics Objectives of Adult Training How to Introduce a Speaker How to Lead Games How to Lead Songs Making Power Point Presentations Additional Power Point Notes Reflection Summary The Trainer's Creed Train The Trainer Course Evaluation Form See The Inquiry Net: http://www.inquiry.net/adult/trainer/

shortridge writes: "In what stages or courses of BSA adult leader training today are leaders taught "how to teach"? And does this consist of hands-on instructional practice, or just standing up in front of a class with a flip chart and Sharpie?" How to teach adults? A course called "Train the Trainer." How to teach Scouts? Scoutmaster specific training replaces the Patrol Method with a Wood Badge manager theory in which the adults determine the "needs of the group" and apply the correct "adult leadership style" (for instance bypassing the Patrol Leaders and telling Scouts to put out the campfire with water). In theory the "group" can progress to a stage where adult leaders don't do that "teaching," but there is no mention of that in Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills (IOLS). At this stage, manager theory has removed the teaching of skills to Scouts through hands-on PATROL Hikes planned by the PATROL Members in PATROL Meetings and led by the most talented and mature older Scout (the PATROL Leader), and gives it to the TROOP Guide and/or TROOP Instructors. That way the Patrol Leader trained with manger theory can be totally incompetent for six months and his responsibilities split up into a bunch of other six month PORs. Dumbing down the Patrol Method provides an opportunity to teach more Scouts business manger skills that might come in handy some day at Enron or Lehman Brothers. This "modern" version of the "Patrol Method" could be called the "Troop Method" or "Den Method." Kudu

GAHillBilly writes: "Bogus ranks and bogus MBs are a festering pus-filled ulcer on Scouting's integrity and trustworthiness." The ultimate expression of this festering pus-filled ulcer is the expression: "Once an Eagle Scout, Always an Eagle Scout!" This attitude that Scouting is all about "values" NOT Outdoor Skills is the exact opposite of Baden-Powell's system of "current proficiency" in which the holder of ANY Award (including Scouting's highest Awards) must re-qualify on a regular basis for ALL of his badges or forfeit his right to wear them. Sure we can whine about lower standards and rail against political correctness. But the real problems are: 1) Bad Scouting Theory (the "Aims & Methods," and the new de facto aims, "ethical choices" and "leadership"); 2) No Free Market; and 3) All-Pervasive Belief that Scouting is School. This Toxic Trio of Scouting is neatly summed-up by the BSA's fake Baden-Powell quote: "Scouting is a Game with a Purpose!" 1) Bad Scouting Theory You can find Bad Scout Theory in ANY interview of Chief Scout Executive Robert Mazzuca. In a USA Today article he dismisses the importance of outdoor skills as "rubbing two sticks together:" "Scouting builds people who are equipped to make ethical and good choices. Our goal is not to teach someone to rub two sticks together and make a fire. But when you rub two sticks together and make a fire side by side with an adult of good character, you're going to learn about who you are and go on to lead men." Likewise in a Forbes article he says "We're not a recreational organization. Our goal is not to teach kids how to build fires and pitch tents. That's the laboratory in which we do the things that we do, which have to do with character and leadership." So clearly Bad Scout Theory asserts that it is not important that Life and Eagle Scouts know how to tie a square knot or two half-hitches. Once those skills are "signed off," its all about their "character and leadership." Period. Bad Scout Theory further asserts that not only are Outdoor Skills unimportant, but expendable. When asked about the future of Scouting, Robert Mazzuca replies: You can teach a kid about character and leadership using aerospace and computers. The secret is to get them side by side with adults of character. This image of the adult replacing the Patrol can also be found in Scoutmaster specific training where an example of "the Patrol Method" is an adult telling Scouts to put a campfire out with water. At no time does the Patrol Method session EVER mention a Scout Patrol or a Patrol Leader. When not teaching such Bad Scouting Theory, it is not uncommon to see Wood Badge experts passionately arguing against using the Patrol Method at summer camp because "the food tastes better" when adults do the cooking, and using Baden-Powell quotes to insist that Scouting bait its hooks to catch "modern indoor boys" who would rather be sitting in front of a computer screen side by side with adults of character. Values-based Scouting (sitting side by side with adults of character), is the opposite of Traditional Scouting in which character is the product of significant adult-free encounters with the raw forces of nature. 2. Government Regulation of the Scouting Industry The reason that the BSA can get away with this is their abuse of the Congressional Charter: "The purposes of the corporation are to promote through organization and cooperation with other agencies the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, to train them in scoutcraft, and to teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues using the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916." The BSA interprets this to mean that the Congress protects their brand against competition in the marketplace by rival international associations that offer real outdoor Scouting as set forth by Baden-Powell. Can you imagine if the Chief "Soccer" Executive insisted that the goal of his soccer monopoly is not to teach someone how to run and kick the ball down the field, but to sit indoors learning aerospace and computers side by side with an adult of character? Soccer fans would boot his Wood Badge lackeys out the door. 3. Scouting as School Wood Badge experts often refer to learning Scoutcraft Skills in school terms, "When the teacher has finished the teaching, the learner is given a test of the material. This can be simple or complex, theoretical or practical." This attitude dates back to the destruction of Wood Badge by the progressive leadership theories of Bla H. Bnthy, and is summed up neatly on page 155 of the 1972 Scoutmaster Handbook: "In general, Patrol Leader training should concentrate on leadership skills rather than on Scoutcraft Skills. The Patrol will not rise and fall on the Patrol Leader's ability to cook, follow a map, or do first aid, but it very definitely depends on his leadership skill." The final triumph of this aggressive anti-outdoor skills movement came in 2000 when Wood Badge dumbed "leadership" down to the Cub Scout level by neatly containing Outdoor Skills in ILOS, so that dainty Den Leaders and indoor Boy Scout decision-makers need not be exposed to the meat and potatoes of Scouting. The alternative to Scouting as School is: Scouting as Adventure. In Baden-Powell's model of Scouting the purpose of learning outdoor skills is not to have them checked off a list in the Scouts' books, but use them in adults-not-allowed backwoods adventures of increasing difficulty. This starts with Second Class Eight Mile Hike, where a pair of Tenderfoot Scouts pit their own knowledge of map, compass, and other outdoor skills against a scary "Journey" without anybody's mommy, daddy or older brother. Beavah mentions the BSA "First Class Journey" which was a 14 mile Expedition without adults. This continual real-world testing and re-certification continues on through all ranks above First Class, ending with an Eagle-level expedition on foot or by water of at least 50 miles in wild country, or an expedition on Horseback of at least 120 miles in wild country, camping at 3 different camp sites. Likewise the BSA's "Bfor Bla Bnthy" definition of a "Real Patrol" is one in which the Patrol Method is a real adventure in which a Patrol Leader (the most qualified older Scout, not a six-month temp) leads his Patrol on no-adults-allowed adventures and teaches Scoutcraft as practical no-adults skills. A modest form of the Patrol Method as Adventure could be accomplished by allowing your strongest Patrols to camp Baden-Powell's suggested 300 feet apart on monthly campouts. Kudu

When Baden-Powell extended "Progressive Training in Scoutcraft" (what we call "Advancement") beyond First Class throughout the former British Empire, it followed his primary principle of Scouting: Boys best learn Citizenship through hands-on encounters with the forces of nature while camping in small Patrols under the leadership of the best possible boy-leader. If an adult only understood ONE thing about Scouting, it was that Scouting is a GAME that INDIRECTLY teaches Citizenship. Scouting is the opposite of learning Citizenship in school. To this end Baden-Powell's Proficiency Badges (what we call "Merit Badges") are ALL centered on advanced mastery of Scoutcraft and Public Service skills. And every "Award" (what we mistakenly call "Ranks") requires an extensive backwoods "Journey" or "Expedition" by land or water. The United States did not discover the "Patrol Method" until 1923, so the Handbook for Scout Masters dictated that "Scout Masters" keep Patrol Leaders weak and in their place so that the Scout Master was the "Real Leader." Three of six methods of Scouting (called the "Six Principles") were based on this adult-led "Real Leader" method: 1) A Clear Plan, Well Thought Out, Progressive in its Stages; 2) The Leader Should Tell the Boys What the Game is and How it is to be Played; and 4) The Scout Master as a Real Leader. Here is an example of the American program at the time when schoolwork Merit Badges were invented: The Patrol Leader and the Scout Master Care should be taken by the Scout Master that the patrol leaders do not have too great authority in the supervision of their patrols. The success of the troop affairs and supervision of patrol progress is, in the last analysis, the responsibility of the Scout Master and not that of the patrol leader. There is also a danger, in magnifying the patrol leader in this way, of inordinately swelling the ordinary boy's head. The activities of the patrol should not be left to the judgment of any patrol leader....[Handbook for Scout Masters, First Edition, page 85]. See The Inquiry Net: http://inquiry.net/adult/methods/1st/principles.htm Without the Patrol Method, Americans believed that Scouting should be the SAME as learning Citizenship in school. The reason that we have so many "Required" Merit Badges is that the boring ones are bad Scouting. Red-blooded American boys rightfully hate them. If your Scouts simply did not care about advancement after First Class it should not be a big mystery: Scouts get enough school at school. Kudu

Scouts who are not advancing should also come before the board of review. HEADS-UP MESSAGE TO SCOUT-AGED READERS: NOW IS THE TIME TO USE THE HOOLIGAN LEADERSHIP SKILLS THAT GOD GAVE YOU FOR YOUR PROTECTION! Do you get enough school at school? Could you possibly care LESS about earning hopelessly boring Required Merit Badges like "Personal Management," "Environmental Science," and "Citizenship in the Classroom"? Do you really want to be dragged before a "Board of Review" every six months to explain to a room full of unsinkable rubber duckies why Baden-Powell wrote that this kind of classroom "Instruction" is the EXACT OPPOSITE of Scouting? Of course you don't! Here's how you head that off: Convince your parents that a Board of Review is about learning "responsibility" and "important adult job skills." Then persuade them to lobby for a "by-law" that requires a Scout to wear his Uniform and bring his book to a Board of Review. Then make sure you NEVER wear your Uniform or bring your Handbook to meetings! Instead bring your fishing pole to every meeting and run for SPL with the slogan: "I'd Rather Be Fishing!" Kudu One of our methods in the Scout movement for taming a hooligan is to appoint him head of a Patrol. He has all the necessary initiative, the spirit and the magnetism for leadership, and when responsibility is thus put upon him it gives him the outlet he needs for his exuberance of activity, but gives it in a right direction." --Baden-Powell, from the article "Are Our Boys Degenerating?" circa 1918.

So why did Baden-Powell (the man who INVENTED Boy Scouts), NOT LIKE Boards of Review? Because when you take advancement away from the Patrol Leaders in Council and give it to their parents it turns Scouting into school. Baden-Powell said that Scouting should be the OPPOSITE of school. Scenario 1 Proctor: Welcome to the SAT tests... Your Son: Ever since I got failed on my Star Board of Review for not bringing my notebook I learned that small unpleasant experiences will prepare me for big unpleasantness when I get older...and that small unpleasantnesses are something that Scouting can deliver! Here is a MUCH BETTER SCENARIO: Scenario 5 Your Son's Friends: Hey! What are YOU doing at baseball try-outs? I thought you were too busy being a Boooy Scouuuut. Your Son: Nah, you guys were right, Scouting sucks! They say its a game, but its worse than school. Hey, where did you guys get those T-Shirts, what do they say? Your Son's Friends: Oh, its our new uniform: "Baseball is a Game with a Purpose!" Babe Ruth said that. Your Son: Babe Ruth never said anything stupid like that. Your Son's Friends: It sounds like you don't make ethical choices: If business manager experts say that it's true then it MUST true. That guy over there gave them to us. He's from Wood Badge and he's really nice. He says he always struck out when he was a kid so now he is going to help make baseball more MODERN! Your Son: Modern? Yours Son's Friends: Yeah. He says modern boys like to be indoors. So rather than wasting time playing outdoors, we are going to do "team building exercises" indoors that teach us "How to a Winner." I think he said it's "Raging, Staging, Engaging," or something. Your Son: I thought baseball was a game. Yours Son's Friends: Nah, that's old fashion! Come on, we are going indoors to study winning. Do you have your book? Your Son: What do I need a BOOK for? I thought baseball was a game. Your Son's Friends: Your book is your official record of attending classroom winner theory and practicing it with T-Ball. Our mommies and daddies then come here to make baseball "unpleasant" and test us. If we answer their questions with the proper due respect, they will add "Baseball Hall of Fame" to our business resumes! Your Son: I thought baseball was a game. Your Son's Friends: Hey! Where are you going? Your Son: Baseball sucks! I'm going to play a REAL GAME like FOOTBALL. In Scenario 5 EVERYBODY WINS. 1. You son wins because flunking a Board of Review taught him how to smell an adult con game. This helped him stand up to peer-pressure when theories about "Purpose," Aims," "Mission," and "Vision" killed a cool game like baseball just like they killed Scouting. 2. Wood Badge wins because when boys hate tests and schoolwork, it PROVES that camping is OLD FASHIONED! 3. Millionaire Scouting Professionals win because if enough boys despise Scouting, we can sell those "old fashioned" Boy Scout camps and IMPROVE "the program" with modern office buildings and modern millionaire retirement benefits. Boards of Review are the opposite of Scouting. Supposedly they "provide valuable feedback about the program" to a group of parents, but BORs like those in this Troop and encouraged by Wood Badge experts like Neil are all about mommies and daddies demanding respect for turning the Patrol Method into Cub Scouts. In Scouting, "Responsibility" is learned by the rigors of hardcore camping, not by learning how to bring the right book to SAT tests or how to dress correctly for job interviews. Kudu (This message has been edited by kudu)

RememberSchiff writes: Another odd thing. So far, I have found no BSA award which recognizes the accomplishment of an adult-less patrol campout. The BSA term for a Patrol that hiked (and eventually camped) without adult supervision was "Real Patrol." The Patrol Leader Training course that taught them how to do it was "Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol." RememberSchiff writes: Or is there a ribbon for the patrol flag that I missed? Maybe a Green Bar "Trained" ribbon? Kudu Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol: http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm

ursus snorous roarus writes: Kudu once and for all, your schtick has gotten really old, this is 2008 and what was done prior to 1972 isnt at all relevant anymore. You asked "how many camps, state parks or otherwise, will allow a group of youth to camp without a leader-in-charge?" I outlined the kinds of camping areas that do not require adult supervision. I even included a URL with the 2008 rules for a camping area that we use for 300 foot Patrol Camping as an example. You dismissed this with a rant against Baden-Powell. ursus snorous roarus writes: So quit whining and get off it, youre no Yoda. Go find a hobby. If my posts make you so very angry then why not use the link "Ignore this user" to the left of this post right now and spare us all from sifting through your rage? Kudu

Nike writes: If you are still iffy, perhaps the boys could go to one campsite and two adults could spend the weekend at another campsite some distance away, but readily accessible in case of an emergency. That or a similar idea by JerseyJohn (below) should be the prerequisite for ALL Patrols who want to camp without adult supervision. Because of the importance we place on business manager theory in BSA training, we no longer teach Patrol Leaders how to do this kind of thing, so let them camp "some distance away" on Troop campouts and see how well they do on a regular basis before y'all jump in over your head in unfamiliar waters. Nike writes: As for the Tour Permit, ask your DE. I mean, they get paid to answer questions like this, right? I would be surprised if one out of every ten DEs nationwide ever heard of Patrol Camping. I agree with Nike and Jet, call your local Council, BUT be prepared to ask someone above your DE's paygrade. JerseyJohn writes: RE: Patrol Method - How do we get there? Posted: Tuesday, 9/9/2008: 9:52:36 PM Here is what I did and it worked like a charm. We used to pile 3, 4, or 5 scout patrols and the leaders into ONE campsite. I started renting two or three sites at BSA council camps at weekend outings. They are inexpensive and well worth spending the extra 15.00 per weekend (you going to pay the $1 per boy regardless, so you are only renting extra sites. That will only run the boys one more dollar for the trip.... Split the patrols between two campsites and the adults take the third site and walla....you become out of sight - out of mind... They want independence and freedom - then give it to them and watch them perform. BP said keep the patrols 150 to 300 feet away from each other! How many SM's actually do that? Yes we actually do that You may discover new options at your local Scout camps if you ask the RANGER. Most BSA camps have remote "primitive camping" areas near a pond or stream for more advanced (spread-out) Patrol camping than your three-campsite method. There might even be a remote lean-to back in the woods somewhere (usually in bad repair) around which your Patrols can camp 150 to 300 feet apart. You will need some equipment light enough to carry some distance from the nearest road. ursus snorous roarus writes: >>Now, I'm not usually a cynic, but this sounds pretty hokey to me.

Beavah writes: Merlyn's provocative post led me to thinkin' that it might be nice to share how each of us handles/would handle a young lad struggling with belief in God, or professing at some point to be atheist or agnostic durin' his scouting journey. I explain to my young Merlyns that some religions like Buddhism do not believe in God either, then I ask them to memorize a pantheistic definition of God that is not based on any supernatural stuff, so they have the OPTION to avoid getting caught in word games about "Duty to God." I posted these details recently in another thread: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=208782&p=3 Beavah writes: I'm talkin' more about unchurched kids, ambivalent kids, kids who at some point get rebellious or lads who are thoughtful and questioning. I use Baden-Powell's procedure: Other Troops in the slums have lads of practically no religion of any kind, and their parents are little or no help to them. Naturally, these require different handling and methods of training from those boys in whom religion has been well grounded. Here, again, Scouting comes very practically to the aid of the teacher, and has already given extraordinarily good results. The practical way in which Scouting can help is through the following: (a) Personal example of the Scoutmaster. (b) Nature study. © Good turns. (d) Missioner service. (e) Retention of the older boy. See: http://inquiry.net/traditional/b-p/scoutmastership/service.htm I use a, b, & c. In addition to (b) Nature study ("Religion of the Backwoods") and © Good turns ("Practical Christianity") Baden-Powell considered (d) Missioner service to be part of an irreligious Scout's "Duty to God." This is a Public Service badge that teaches Scouts how to care for invalids. I don't use Missioner service, but I was always glad that when our Boards of Review included as many as four Christian missionaries (two married couples), they never took issue with professed Scout atheism. A Christian missionary's method of reaching non-believers through personal example and good turns (like caring for the sick) is very similar to what actually works with atheist Scouts. Kudu

Mike, If you attach the sleeping bag directly to two bars of the frame as Beavah suggests, you can use the "sleeping bag loops" hanging from the pack to attach the sleeping pad using a second pair of straps. It will not flop around like the sleeping bag did. You might want purchase a third set of straps and reserve the area of the frame above the pack for your son's share of group gear like a tent, food, cooking gear, etc. A large cheap stuff sack might come in handy there if his share is a bunch of loose items. Kudu (This message has been edited by kudu)

I would run each of the two straps: 1) from the loop 2) to a horizontal frame bar near the bottom of the pack (not shown in the photo), 3) down around the lower bar, 4) then back under the sleeping bag to the loop. Before threading the second strap, try to tighten the first strap around the sleeping bag to make sure you have the buckle in the correct position. Long straps are available in most hunting departments for a couple dollars. Do NOT use bungee cords! Kudu

BulldogBlitz writes: you could campaign for obama. i hear he's considering making pot legal. Yeah, or you could campaign for Sarah Palin. Spin your 420 logo like she does her $320,000,000 "Bridge to Nowhere:" You were FOR it until you were AGAINST it! Kudu