Kudu

Who are you to say what this thread is about? I gave him specific advice: Download the junk leadership PowerPoint Presentation.

Scout Spirit requirements, Scoutmaster Conferences, and Boards of Review are designed to keep a Boy Scout Troop adult-run. They are a flat rejection of Baden-Powell. SeaGull99 writes: "After the elections, the troop holds some sort of troop leadership training" Actually "Troop Leadership Training" (TLT) is available on-line in the form of a PowerPoint Presentation you download to your computer. See: http://olc.scouting.org/resources/TLT.ppt LTL lacks any substance and is easy to memorize, if you want your son to suck up. If the Scoutmaster is a holder of the Wood Badge (look for a pink neckerchief and wooden beads hanging around his neck), then make SURE that your son memorizes EDGE, the Mission and Vision Statements, and the fake Baden-Powell quote about the "Patrol Method." And have him bring a pack of tissue. Holders of the Wood Badge get all weepy when they believe that junk leadership training has "made a difference in a young man's life." Kudu

An interesting topic, Brent! I have always thought that because Scouter.Com is dedicated to Green Bar Bill, there should be a separate Green Bar Bill Forum dedicated just to quoting passages from GBB and debating their relevance to Scouting in the 21st century. That way his techniques would all be in one place. In the passages quoted in the first post of this thread, Hillcourt is calling for balance. The first one appears near the end of 81 pages about the Patrol Method. 81 pages! Compare that to the 3 pages in the current Scoutmaster Handbook, which among other things asserts: "Most patrol activities take place within the framework of the troop." That is not the same as Hillcourt's Patrol Method, in which Scoutmasters train Patrol Leaders to lead Patrol Hikes on a regular basis without adult supervision: "You want your gang to become a real Patrol--and only a hiking Patrol is a real one." Handbook for Patrol Leaders, Chapter Six. So when Hillcourt writes that a Troop is the sum total of its Patrols, he is talking about "REAL PATROLS." How many Scouter.Com readers serve a Troop with "real Patrols" that hike without adult supervision on a regular basis? One way to understand the difference between the Patrol Method and the "Troop Method" is in terms of training. In Scouting you get what you train for. The later printings of the 3rd edition of Handbook for Scoutmasters devote 25 pages to the training of a Patrol Leader (pages 200-208 + 208i-208xvi). We no longer provide Patrol Leader Training. Now it is all about "TROOP Leadership Training." That is why the term "Troop Method" is so fitting. Try to imagine a waterfront in which Scouts run for BSA Lifeguard every six months and are trained using Troop Leadership Training. How many Scouter.Com readers would allow their Scouts to swim in water over their heads? So if we want to discuss what Hillcourt means by the relationship of Patrols to Troops, we must do so in terms of what Hillcourt called "Real Patrols." Kudu The Troop Leaders' Council as the Training Ground for the Patrol Leaders In the meetings and deliberations of the Troop Leaders' Council, the Patrol Leaders are initiated into and guided in the parts they are to play in connection with their Troop leadership. Simultaneous with this, but at separate gatherings, is carried out their training for successful Patrol leadership, for their work as the heads of groups of boys clamoring for things to do. This second phase of their training is, obviously, the more difficult and exacting of the two. In the meetings of, the Troop Leaders' Council the Patrol Leader may lean upon his associates, but in the meetings of his Patrol he must stand on his own feet, at all times giving his leadership. He must be trained to the point where he can do this. And it is the Scoutmaster who imparts this training.

Do you see a pattern here? The things that boys HATE, like specific leadership positions as conditions for "Advancement," have NO PLACE in Baden-Powell's understanding of Scouting. They were not even part of BSA Scouting until ... the pop business theory experts took over the BSA. ljnrsu writes: This is not new its been a part of BSA for awhile. 1. While a Life Scout for a period of six months show to the satisfaction of your leaders that you-Work actively as a leader in meetings, outdoor activities, and service projects of your unit. My point exactly! Baden-Powells Patrol System depends on the service of Troop's best natural leaders as Patrol Leaders, therefore such service was NOT required of everyone in order to earn "Awards" (what we call "Ranks") in his "Progressive Training in SCOUTCRAFT" (what we call "Advancement'). Terms like "Ranks" (which should refer to leadership positions) and "Advancement" are a legacy of the BSA's origins in YMCA theory, which in 1910 rejected B-P's Patrol System in favor of modern "scientific" leadership with adult-led Patrols. Given this historical legacy, the pre-1965 BSA requirements that you quote are the LEAST damaging way to include "leadership" in Advancement: They treat leadership work like Scout spirit requirements. Something that a good Scout DOES, not an OFFICE that he must grab in order to "advance." The advantage to the Patrol Method is that Patrol Leaders with the actual rare talent to organize their own Patrol Hikes can continue to be Patrol Leaders while less talented Scouts can work actively as a leader in meetings, outdoor activities, and service projects of their unit." Leadership Development PORs killed Hillcourts Patrol Method the same way that they will destroy BSA waterfronts if we go leadership crazy and treat BSA Lifeguards like we treat Patrol Leaders. ljnrsu writes: In 1965 PORs and service projects for community and conservation were added to Star/Life/Eagle but that change was effective Jan 1. From different sources William Green Bar Bill Hillcourt retired Aug 1, 1965. He was still an employee of the BSA when those changes were proposed and implemented. Reading between the lines of the White Stag Wikipedia entry, Hillcourt appears to have been excluded from the giddy excitement surrounding the movement to replace Scoutcraft (what outdoor boys want) with manager theory (what adults who work in classrooms and offices want). His name does not appear in any of the 1962-1965 committees listed there. But Hillcourt was a company man. Did he have kind words for the Bela Banathy movement that would some day destroy his life's work, the Patrol Method? If so it was the biggest mistake of his life. There were a number of other things that Bill Hillcourt was never allowed to change, including the schoolwork nature of BSA Merit Badges that boys hate so much. As Baden-Powell's term implies, "Progressive Training in Scoutcraft" means that a "King's Scout" is an absolute master of OUTDOOR SKILLS, rather than a master of the schoolwork paths to the Aims of Scouting that "Life by Choice" boys are more than happy to skip. Kudu

Wood Badge would not be the Uniform Police of adult peer pressure if you AGREED with me, OGE.

Twocubdad writes: "he enjoys camping, troop meetings and even summer camp. He does not, however, give a bean about advancement or leadership positions. He's perfectly content to sit back and let everyone else run things....another Scout ... ran out of gas when he saw what a long road he had in front of him. 15 MBs, two leadership positions and an Eagle project" Do you see a pattern here? The things that boys HATE, like specific leadership positions as conditions for "Advancement," have NO PLACE in Baden-Powell's understanding of Scouting. They were not even part of BSA Scouting until after William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt retired and the pop business theory experts took over the BSA. The same is true for Eagle projects, they are just leadership theory added on after Bill Hillcourt was safely out of the way. Liz writes: "I seriously doubt either of my boys will ever make Eagle...They both just hate "homework" too much." Baden-Powell went to great lengths to explain why Scouting is the opposite of the homework that we see in all of the BSA Merit Badges, even the outdoor ones. Liz writes: "He's done everything except the reports for several, including Communication and at least one Citizenship badge." Citizenship Merit Badges are a perfect example of not understanding Scouting, which Baden-Powell invented as a GAME to teach Citizenship INDIRECTLY as an ALTERNATIVE to schoolwork instruction. And "reports" for "Communication"? How bogus is that? Liz writes: "what mother could complain that her kids sign up for every possible service project even though they have had "enough" hours for the next rank for the last year?" Teaching kids to count the number of hours they spend "helping other people at all times," and then teaching them to expect payment in the form of Advancement credit is not just bad Scouting, it is bad religion. Why not teach them to count the number of hours they sit in church? When they have "enough" hours of pew time they could stay home until it is time to work on the next rank! Scouts should render service (including leadership) without any thought of compensation. That is the WHOLE POINT of the story of the "Unknown Scout" in the London fog, isn't it? If only Baden-Powell's Scout had accepted a tip we might still have Scouting based on Baden-Powell in this country! GernBlansten writes: "I'm feeling the same way about Woodbadge...Kinda like the Life scout who doesn't want the hassles of the project." Wood Badge is where you learn that Baden-Powell's insight into the nature of boys (as proven in every post so far in this thread) is "OLD-FASHIONED" and that classrooms, homework, counting service hours and months of leadership, and forcing bogus sub-prime business theory on boys is "MODERN"! Wood Badge is the Uniform Police of adult peer pressure! Kudu

Was it the "cheerful service" of an Eagle Project, or the paperwork that stood between you and the finish line? Environmental Science Merit Badge is the exact misunderstanding of Baden-Powell's admonition that Scouting be designed for boys: OUTDOOR ACTION, the very opposite of schoolwork and classrooms. Could you possibly turn the great outdoors into something more exquisitely boring? In a perfect Scouting association, Scouts would fail to achieve Eagle Scout because they hate camping. Most Required Merit Badges have their origin in the BSA's anti-Patrol Method YMCA roots. Eagle is the same as Cub Scouts, isn't it? An indoor schoolmarm nightmare from which most red-blooded American boys run. Kudu

Mr. Boyce writes: "the author...is not very up on scouting, likely due to a progressivist bias" I'd say just the opposite. Louv is sharply critical of progressive causes such as guilt-tripping kids about the rain forest, radical Leave No Trace, and PETA's anti-Fishing Merit Badge campaign. It is the BSA that has been radically progressivist since 1972 when we replaced our traditional outdoor values with corporate manger theory hyped as "leadership skills:" "In general, Patrol Leader training should concentrate on leadership skills rather than on Scoutcraft Skills. The Patrol will not rise and fall on the Patrol Leader's ability to cook, follow a map, or do first aid, but it very definitely depends on his leadership skill" Scoutmaster's Handbook [1972], page 155). This progressivist indoor manager bias continues to the present day as BSA millionaires now seek to "reinvent Scouting" to lure boys indoors away from the Patrol Method, so they can sit in front of computer screens "side by side with adults of character:" "You can teach a kid about character and leadership using aerospace and computers. The secret is to get them side by side with adults of character...We recognize the evolving science of leadership. We've had CEOs on our board say they want to send their people to Wood Badge, our adult leader training program, because we use state-of-the-art techniques" (Chief Scout Executive Robert Mazzuca, USA Today, "Advice from the Top: Leaders Need Scouts' Qualities") Richard Louv presents a balanced account of Scouting. The following excerpt is typical: At Scout headquarters at San Diego's Camp Balboa, an urban campground created in 1916, Narayan and Karyl T. O'Brien, associate executive director of the regional Girl Scouts Council, spread out a stack of literature to describe the rich programs they provide to more than thirty thousand girls. Impressive, but over the past three years, membership in the region has remained flat, even as the population has grown precipitously. This region's council markets itself aggressively. It offers such programs as an overnighter with the city's natural history museum, a daylong junior naturalist program, and popular summer-camp experiences. But the overwhelming majority of Girl Scout programs are unconcerned with nature. Included (along with selling cookies) are such offerings as Teaching Tolerance, Tobacco Prevention, Golf Clinic, Self-Improvement, Science Festival, EZ Defense, and Financial Literacy. Soon, Camp CEO will bring businesswomen to a natural setting to mentor girls in job interviewing, product development, and marketing. The divide between past and future is seen best at the Girl Scout camps in mountains east of the city: one is billed as traditional, with open-air cabins and tents hidden in the trees; the newer camp looks like a little suburbia with street lights. "I flipped when I learned that girls weren't allowed to climb trees at our camps," says O'Brien. Liability is an increasing concern. "When I was a kid, you fell down, you got up, so what; you learned to deal with consequences. I broke this arm twice," says Narayan. "Today, if a parent sends a kid to you without a scratch, they better come back that way. That's the expectation. And as someone responsible for people, I have to respect that." Scouting organizations must also respect, or endure, outrageous increases in the cost of liability insurance. This is not only an American phenomenon; in 2002, Australia's Scouting organizations Girl Guides and Scouts Australia reported increases of as much as 500 percent in a single year, leading the executive director of Scouts Australia to warn that Scouting could be "unviable" if insurance premiums continued to rise. Considering the mounting social and legal pressures, Scouting organizations deserve praise for maintaining any link to nature. Narayan pointed out that most of the two thousand girls who attend summer camps are touched by nature, even if indirectly. "But we now feel compelled to put tech labs in camps or computers in a nature center, because that's what people are used to," says O'Brien. Scouting is responding to the same pressures experienced by public schools: as family time and free time have diminished, Americans expect these institutions to do more of society's heavy lifting--more of its social, moral, and political juggling. Ask any Boy Scout how difficult that act can be. ...Like the Girl Scouts, the Boy Scouts struggle to be up-to-date -- and marketable. At the new National Scouting Museum in Irving, Texas, displays use virtual-reality technology to allow visitors to climb a mountain, kayak down a river, and conduct simulated rescues on mountain bikes. People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) activists launched a campaign to convince the Boy Scouts to drop their fishing merit badge. In 2001, the Dallas Morning News reported that some Boy Scout councils across the country were selling off wilderness camps to pay their bills. For the Boy Scouts and the Girl Scouts, it's not easy being green. Today's parents push such organizations toward even safer, more technological activities. Scouting struggles to remain relevant, to be a one-stop shop, to offer something for just about everyone. That may be a good marketing policy. Or not. (An astute book editor once told me: "A book written for everyone is a book for no one.") As the scope of Scouting has widened, the focus on nature has narrowed. But a slim minority of parents and Scout leaders is beginning to argue for a back-to-nature movement. "They're usually the older adults," says O'Brien, "The ones who can remember a different time." Could this set of adults offer a targeted marketing opportunity to future capital campaigns? Rather than accept nature's slide, or suggest that non-nature programs be dropped to make way for the outdoors, why not ask these adults to build a whole new nature wing to Scouting? Interesting possibility, said O'Brien. In fact, it makes sense not only as a marketing tool--define your niche and claim it--but also as a mission. Scout leaders emphasize that Scouting is an educational program that teaches young people about building character, faith traditions, mentoring, serving others, healthy living, and lifelong learning. Boy Scouts founder Lord Baden-Powell surely sensed that exposure to nature nurtures children's character and health. The best way to advance those educational goals (and, in a marketing sense, revive Scouting) as a return to the core orientation to nature -- an approach that many parents and Scout leaders support [Last Child in the Woods, pages 152-154]. See: http://tinyurl.com/yr3qol

I added the plans from the PL handbook with a mention that materials have changed since then. See: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/equipment/green_bar_bill_pack.htm Maybe someone with experience with modern materials could revise the text for us: Decide on the kind of material you want to use. When this pack was designed, a heavy waterproof duck was considered the best, but consider modern heavy duty nylon materials. In addition to 96" of 34-inch wide 12 oz. duck or canvas (or other material), you will need 4 boxes of No. 9 split copper rivets, 24 1-inch D-rings, 36" of 2-inch webbing, 66" of 1-inch webbing, 14' of mason line. Lay out the pattern on your material as suggested in the working drawing. If your material is of another width than the width shown, it pays to make up a paper pattern first, then lay it out on the cloth in the most economical way. Cut out the pieces, then put them together, as shown in diagram, with the copper rivets. Make the body of the pack over a wooden box, 18"x16"x6". Turn inside out. Attach the flaps as shown. When the pack itself is completed, rivet on the straps in the manner indicated on the diagram. I included a URL for AddAll where you can find copies of William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt's Handbook for Patrol Leaders for a couple of dollars. Every Troop that uses the Patrol Method outdoors should have at least one pre-1972 copy in their library to supplement the current indoor edition See: http://tinyurl.com/bfq2p5

Buffalo Skipper writes: "do you still use JLT to supplement the Green Bar training?" Yeah, but I can't help feeling that I am teaching the mindset needed to someday buy hundreds of billions of dollars worth of sub-par loans and $40,000 executive wastebaskets with tax-payer bail-out money That being said, some of the smarter Scouts do enjoy that kind of thing. One of my former Patrol Leaders (who when he was 12 took his Patrol on adult-free campouts by using railroad right-of-ways) is now working on his PhD in economics. Besides it gives me an excuse to haul out my DVD copy of "Master and Commander" and discuss Lucky Jack Aubrey's leadership formula ("strength, respect, and discipline") as used by his 13-year-old midshipmen ("squeakers") to lead patrols of grown men in the heat of battle! See my JLT notes: http://inquiry.net/patrol/training/movies.htm ("Master and Commander" DVDs are available from that URL for as little as 32 cents). Mafaking writes: "But its the next step that is missing. Its where the scouts gets an opportunity to really lead his patrol that seems to have fallen to the way side." You mean these opportunities are missing in most "21st century Scouting"? Many people like to blame the changing culture, as in Louv's Last Child in the Woods. A lot depends on expectations, doesn't it? I do not expect my Patrol Leaders to organize their own adult-free campouts, although some do. As noted above, a good compromise is to use Baden-Powell's "100 yard rule" for Troop campouts and simply allow your Patrols to hold "Patrol Overnights" away from the adults and the other Patrols at a distance determined by each Patrol's actual competency. Mafaking writes: "I am not slamming the Green Bar patrol. But it is in itself another management concept. Results are only realized when the exact formalistic approach is used. Lots of time spent withe PLC members, separate campouts and so forth. Fail that and the model won't produce." But a lot is riding on this approach, isn't it? The "management concept" of "Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol" is managed risk, not unlike BSA Lifeguard training. Lots of time = an extra hour after PLC meetings every month for six months (6 hours), plus a Saturday for the Patrol Hike (10 hours), and one overnight: We held our Patrol overnights Saturday morning through Sunday morning. The modern "disposable Patrol Leader" method holds elections and weekend training every six months, so if you only run the Green Bar Patrol once a year the total training hours are less per year; and a LOT less if you hang onto your best Patrol Leaders for two or three years, and/or if Assistant Patrol Leaders attend with the Patrol Leaders and take over. The Scoutmaster-led Green Bar Patrol is a training Patrol, it is disbanded after your Patrol Leaders are trained. One mistake I made with the online version of "Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol" was to update the reading assignments to reference the current publications. The current Patrol Leader and Scoutmaster handbooks are significantly inferior to the older references in both quantity and quality. For instance the older publications specify that the GOAL of training is to get the Patrol Leaders out hiking and camping (managed risk). The Handbook for Patrol Leaders has an entire chapter on how to take your Patrol on a Patrol Hike without adults: CHAPTER VII PATROL HIKES At one of the very first Patrol meetings you have with your Scouts, one of them will ask: "When do we go on a hike" and in a moment the rest will join him in a multi-voiced chorus. Boys, and especially Scouts, want to go hiking. The out-of-doors fascinates them. The woods, the rivers, the "wide open spaces" call them. And they obey. As soon as you are able you will want to take your boys on Patrol Hikes. You want your Patrol to be a real one, and only a hiking Patrol is a real Patrol.... DEGREE OF RESPONSIBILITY The most conspicuous difference between the two [Patrol Meetings and Patrol Hikes] is the different degree of responsibility that goes with each. There are usually not very many dangers in running an indoor meeting. It is when you start to take the group out in the open that the danger moment may creep in. There is traffic to be encountered, cliffs and rivers and swamps to be avoided; there is the danger than an innocent camp fire will blow up into a forest fire if care is not taken. And a lot of other unforeseen things that might happen which would put you in a severe test [emphasis added]. Likewise the Handbook for Patrol Leaders had another entire chapter about how to take your Patrol camping without adults: CHAPTER VIII PATROL CAMPING The outdoor part of Scouting fascinates the boys. The hikes that bring them out into nature have their absolute approval, but, after all, the experience which they are most looking forward to from the day you start the Patrol is --Camp. Camp is a word filled with adventure to every real boy. It stands for freedom, fun and adventure. Unlucky is the Scout who hasn't had his taste of camp life. One of your greatest services as a Patrol Leader is to try to make your Patrol into a Camping Patrol trained in the ways of the experienced campers. This takes time. It takes also patience and perseverance. But it can be done, and you are will under way toward doing it, the day you have made your boys into real hikers as described in the previous chapter. The official BSA policy that "Real Patrols" require real adult-free hikes and campouts was made crystal clear to adult leaders. For instance, on page 118-119 of the Handbook for Scoutmasters (fourth edition): Patrols are ready to go hiking and camping on their own just as soon as the Patrol Leader has been trained, and the Scouts have learned to take care of themselves....It should be your goal to get your Patrol Leaders qualified for hike and camp leadership at an early stage. Kudu

http://inquiry.net/outdoor/equipment/green_bar_bill_pack.htm

Yes, the Patrol has the same members as the PLC plus the Scoutmaster, who serves as Patrol Leader. Usually the Green Bar Patrol meets just after the PLC concludes its business. The basic idea of the first meeting is to teach the Patrol Leaders how to run a Patrol Meeting without adults around. A small Troop usually adds Assistant Patrol Leaders to the Patrol so that you have a good size Patrol. You can also add any other Troop officers who would benefit from knowing how a Patrol works, but keep in mind that this is "Patrol Leader Training" NOT "Junior Leader Training." Kudu

An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the source making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim. The process of proving or disproving the claim is thereby subverted, and the argumentum ad hominem works to change the subject.

jblake47 worte: "In an adult-led program, mixing and matching of patrols may be the traditional course of action, but when it's boy-led and they are making the decisions as to patrol membership, that is not possible." Eagledad responds: "You make this up as you go along so you can justify how you direct your scouts, don't you?. "Its a pride thing isn't it. "Can I make a guess here, you weren't a boy scout as a youth, were you?" Wow! Not one but THREE perfectly executed ad hominem attacks! As in Wiki: An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the source making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim. The process of proving or disproving the claim is thereby subverted, and the argumentum ad hominem works to change the subject. I would think that should appeal to the logical nature of engineers. Besides being illogical, personal attacks are ALWAYS a projection of what we secretly fear about ourselves: I used to teach my scouts that your true character is how you would act when nobody is looking. I like to monitor scouting forums because scouting is my passion. But I also glance at other forums for various reasons and it seems like there is a trend that folks are getting down right rude and obnoxious. I even see more of it here on this forum where I think folks behavior would be at a higher standard. It got me wondering that maybe we are seeing the character of people of when they feel nobody is looking? Are folks starting to think it is OK to see the worst of them because we cant see their face? I use to really enjoy the new computer technology because it allowed us to spread information faster and farther. But now Im not so sure it is worth the baggage it brings with it. I have always dreamed that maybe someday I would be invited to a reunion of sorts for the Scouters of Scouters.com. And I would hope that folks would look forward to meeting me as much as I would certainly look forward to meeting you. But are their some folks who would rather I just skip the reunion because I exposed some character that I wouldnt have done in person. I sure hope not.

"Pay for performance" is exactly what is WRONG with the BSA. Membership numbers are what leads to the "ANYTHING BUT SCOUTING" mentality of BSA professionals and then trickles down to Wood Badge suck-ups. I'd be willing to INCREASE executive compensation if all BSA millionares were in the mold of James West, who hired William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt and at LONG LAST forced the BSA to FINALLY accept the Patrol Method. Without James West at the helm, BSA executives began to dismantle the Patrol Method with White Stag manager fluff LESS THAN TWO MONTHS after Hillcourt's retirement! We need another iron-fisted dictator to drag Wood Badge kicking and screaming away from its CEO superstar theory and back to Hillcourt-based Patrol Leader Training. Kudu

Buffalo Skipper writes: "OK. I hear yall going back and forth about this. Kudu, I know what you have said here, but lets say you have a successful troop (by modern BSA expectations); how do you make the transition?" As you note, my Top Dog story is about rescuing a "Troop in Trouble" where the danger of changing the "Troop Culture" of a successful Troop is not an issue. Buffalo Skipper writes: "My point is, how do you get the scouts who have worked with this program for one to five years make this adjustment and change their way of thinking?" First off, I would pitch any changes as NEW ADVENTURES, rather than changing their way of thinking. That is the difference between Bill Hillcourt's Patrol Leader Training and all of the manager theory that replaced it. Hillcourt's "Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol" course and his companion pre-1972 Handbook for Scoutmasters and pre-1972 Handbook for Patrol Leaders focus like a laser beam on what a Patrol DOES: How with the proper training a Patrol Leader can take his Patrol on cool adventures without depending on adult supervision. Manger fluff is all about "team-building exercises" based on how a "leader" THINKS about "being a leader." So focus instead on SMALL OUTDOOR ADVENTURES and everything else will follow: Form Follows Function! "Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol" teaches Patrol Leaders 1) how to hold PATROL MEETINGS, and then how to use Patrol Meetings to 2) plan PATROL HIKES and 3) PATROL OVERNIGHTERS. As I have noted in many other threads, the best compromise between Bill Hillcourt's Traditional BSA "Patrol Method" and the new helicopter "21st Century Scouting" is to use Baden-Powell's "100 yard rule" for Troop campouts. Simply use monthly outings to allow your Patrols to hold "Patrol Overnights" away from the adults and the other Patrols at a distance determined by each Patrol's actual competency. This is all about the sense of ADVENTURE that comes from independence. Often overlooked these days is that both Scoutcraft and Leadership Training in Baden-Powell's and Bill Hillcourt's Traditional Scouting is based on Troop and Patrol Hikes (a Patrol Overnight is merely an extended Patrol Hike). A Troop or Patrol Hike should be measured by its ENTERTAINMENT VALUE, not by its distance. Hillcourt devotes seventy (70) pages of his Handbook for Scoutmasters to hikes. He writes that the success of ALL Scouting activities depends on: ACTION VARIETY PUPPOSE By "ACTION" he means ACTION rather than understanding. Scouting is a Game, NOT a Purpose. Under "VARIETY" he writes: "It is too late to sit up and take stock when the boys begin to stay away in droves and present for their reason that 'we never do anything but walk out, light a fire, cook supper and walk home again.' Troop hikes must be made so interesting and varied that no one will willingly miss them." I wonder how many Troops in entire the United States EVER hike out on a Saturday to light a fire and cook supper, let alone do it enough to dull its novelty The "PURPOSE" of a Troop or Patrol Hike is ADVENTURE. He offers 30 Troop Hike theme suggestions, which I will include in a later post. One of these 30 is Treasure Hunt wide games: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/games/wide/index.htm For a simple nuts and bolts on how to teach Patrol Leaders how to plan a Troop or Patrol Hike, see: http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/3rd.htm The Scoutmaster must then take the Patrol Leaders on the actual Green Bar Patrol Hike that they just planned. That's right, a stupid "blindfold exercise" will not do! http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/3z_hike.htm Training should be outdoor adventure, NOT understanding! Kudu

If your goal is to someday use what the BSA once termed "Real Patrols" then your primary concern should be to keep best friends together, rather than arbitrarily pulling their names out of a sorting hat. This is especially true with many Latin brothers and cousins, who tend to get separated in white Troops with "no brothers in the same Patrol" rules. Remember that the Hogwart's Sorting Hat was NOT random, its whole purpose was to place everyone in the proper school after CAREFUL CONSIDERATION of each new student's nature, thoughts, and desires. Keeping friends together is a fundamental principle of Traditional Scouting. The Patrols of most Troops camp close together so that friends from other Patrols can all hang out together, and even bunk together. If you split friends up, then they will rightfully resist any effort to move the Patrols apart when you start to move them in the direction of Real Patrols. Buffalo Skipper writes: "Several of my SM Minutes have been on patrol unity and cohesion." This is where the 1,166 "new" Scouting ideas in Bill Hillcourt's third edition Handbook for Scoutmasters come in handy. Personality should aways trump theory, the trick is to have many legitimate Traditional theories from which to choose. If the personalities of your Scouts do not YET lend themselves to the Patrol unity and cohesion theory, it helps to 1,165 other traditional ideas to choose from If you now have a total of 7 active campers who want to combine their Patrols, then that sounds like a good idea (unless a good Patrol Leader might be replaced with a bad one from the misfits Patrol). But it is all about personality. Sometimes a misfit Patrol can be transformed into a better Patrol than a NSP would be without a talent pool of older Scouts from which to draw. If your goal is Traditional BSA "Real Patrols," the ideal situation is to place the new Scouts in established Patrols. The second best option is to get the Troop's best leader, someone who goes on every campout -- perhaps an Eagle Scout -- and personally ask him to become Patrol Leader of the new Scouts (along with a couple of his best friends for company). One thing that I would avoid in a Troop with one barely working Patrol is wasting the talents of your best Scout on being an SPL. That may take some horse-trading if your Top Dog is determined to be SPL, for instance asking him to also be Patrol Leader of a group of new Scouts for their first year (called "Troop Guide" in the Troop Method). Kudu

NealOnWheels writes: "In retrospect this put the Scoutmaster and myself at odds and likely cost my chances of being an Eagle Scout. I had a Life board of review go bad because I supposedly did not show 'Scout Spirit'." This is the downside of making Eagle Scout (and all BSA Advancement) about "values" rather than Scoutcraft SKILLS and Public Service SKILLS, as in "Once an Eagle, always an Eagle." In Baden-Powell's understanding of Scouting there are NO "Scout Spirit," "Scoutmaster Conference," or "Board of Review" Advancement requirements. These (in addition to required school work Merit Badges) are designed to keep Scouting adult-run, and date back to BEFORE the BSA discovered the Patrol Method. Scouting is a Game, NOT a Purpose. Kudu

One determined indoor adult can kill an entire Troop, especially if a majority of the Committee is impressed with "expert certification" like Wood Badge or (far worse) adult Eagle Scout. I'm not sure what you are looking for: interpersonal experiences, or practical Venturing Crew/Venture Patrol pointers. 2eagles writes: "We don't believe a battle would accomplish much except division due to past history" "We have been contacted by several boys who want to start a Venture Crew and want us to function as advisors." So you want to do an end-run around a confrontation by forming a Venturing Crew? 2eagles writes: "Plus, contacted by parents of boys who are 1 year out of being 14 about a Venture Crew." A Venture PATROL can include Scouts age 13-17. Would this work? See: http://www.usscouts.org/usscouts/advance/docs/VVVtable.asp I have used ad hoc Venture-type Patrols to change Troop culture. All it takes is a minimum two Scouts and two adults Rather than concentrating on distance or the word "backpacking," I build on some goal that can not be reached by driving, like a short "weekend hike" to a fishing spot "where the fish have never seen a hook before." Kudu

FrankBoss writes: "Any Tent Plans?" How about teepees? Teepees at a Camporee are WAY cooler than tents Here is a 12' teepee plan at The Inquiry Net with links to others: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/shelter/tepee.htm At one time it was popular to learn the basics by building models first. A small light was added to the above teepee to make it a boy's bedroom lamp, a gift for mom, or a Troop meeting room decoration. Building lashing models indoors during the winter before making the full scale projects outdoors, was also popular. The first step was to hold a knotting board competition: "There is no reason why such boards should not be made for each Patrol as part of an inter-Patrol competition, while it is still more valuable if every Scout in the Troop is required to produce one. A minimum standard of knots to be done should be laid down, but all and sundry should be encouraged to add to that minimum as much as they can. It is rather difficult to imagine a maximum, but perhaps it might be attained by some 150 different knots, hitches, bends, whippings, splicings and lashings." See: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/skills/b-p/models.htm These knotting boards and pioneering models were also used to decorate the Troop meeting room. Kudu

Beavah writes: "So now let's continue the thought. What happens beyond those two weeks (and first two years)? A hands-on adult mentor can recognize the talents of individual boys and steer 'em in a small group of a half dozen or so. But as the unit gets bigger, that's harder and harder to do, eh?" Is it? At a certain point Top Dog (being Top Dog) takes over. What else does a Scoutmaster have to do with his free time but figure out who the other natural leaders in a Troop are, and point them out to Top Dog. After you have done that once, Top Dog starts to figure that out for himself. All an adult has to do is recognize when a Patrol is dry, well-fed, and happy. A 14 or 15 year-old can run a meeting without the other Scouts hearing an adult voice from 7PM to 8:25. And there is nothing sweeter than to watch the adults in the adjoining campsites at a Camporee steal glances as your Scouts unload the cars and set up the campsite by themselves. A Top Dog on fire is the equal of most adult volunteers, except for experience and judgement. Because we look at "modern" Scouting through the abstract lens of Leadership Development, classroom Advancement, and Troop-wide elections, it is WAY too easy to OVERTHINK this Beavah. The BSA program before 1965 was A BOY'S GAME. When you incorporate Bill Hillcourt's techniques into a "21st century" Troop, it becomes a boy's game again. What the BSA called "Real Patrols" are INTUITIVE to boys because a Patrol in the woods is literally part of a boy's DNA. Many people confuse "literal" with "figurative," as in "I was so startled I literally jumped 10 feet off the floor!" But I mean how a Patrol of boys acts in the woods is REALLY part of human DNA. All you need to experience it first hand is to spread your Troop's Patrols out as Baden-Powell recommended. If you are hopelessly addicted to BSA training then why not have a special campout where a Patrol Leader who has staffed NYLT can take his Patrol Baden-Powell's suggested 300 feet away. A Patrol Leader who has participated in NYLT 200 feet, and Patrol Leaders who have gone through TLT 100 feet. Everyone makes fun of me for that simple idea. I wonder why. Most people read Scouting forums for practical ideas that they can use this week. Nobody makes fun of Scouters who suggest treating teenage Boy Scouts like Cub Scouts, with ideas like movie nights or "lock ins" at a local museum. But for some reason the FUNDAMENTAL SOURCE OF ADVENTURE in Scouting before its decline in 1972 is considered to be beneath contempt. An idea to be ridiculed. But these are not my ideas, as our distinguished

The primary influence on American Scouting was Daniel Carter Beard's pre-Scouting boys' organization "The Sons of Daniel Boone." Beard was one of the founders of the BSA and folded his group into the mix in 1910. His entire "Sons of Daniel Boone" handbook can be found at The Inquiry Net: http://inquiry.net/traditional/beard/pioneers/index.htm After that comes the hunting season. When the leaves have lost their beautiful autumn coloring and those that have not fallen are withered and brown, it is Boone's Day November 2d. This day can be devoted to out-door sport, throwing the tomahawk and archery for all the boys, but the older lads may engage in rifle practice. Right in midwinter, the day before Christmas, is Kit Carson's Day because he was born on December 24th, and any Son of Daniel Boone who cannot think of something bully to do at that time can find it in the following pages. Snow forts, skating contests, running the gantlet, tracking in the snow, and, if the weather is bad, in-door games are in order. Kit was not only a great scout, but he was also a grandson of Daniel Boone, so be sure to remember him with a lively and enthusiastic day of fun. According to Tim Jeal's biography Baden-Powell, The Sons of Daniel Boone was not a great influence on B-P's invention of Boy Scouts, which was more greatly effected by a pre-Scouting handbook called The Birch Bark Roll by another BSA founder, Ernest Thompson Seton: http://inquiry.net/traditional/seton/birch/index.htm Dan Beard's version of The Sons of Daniel Boone and the origin of Boy Scouting can be found in the chapter "Scouting" from his autobiography Hardly A Man is Now Alive: http://inquiry.net/traditional/beard/scouting.htm Beard continued to run his "Dan Beard Outdoor School for Boys" long after he merged his youth group with the BSA. See: http://inquiry.net/uniforms/beard.htm A good photograph of "Axe Throwing" at the Outdoor School for Boys (actually done with specially-designed tomahawks), THE most important event at any Daniel Boone Camporee can be found at: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/skills/axe/axe_throwing.htm With the exact details at: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/skills/beard/throw_tomahawk.htm Kudu (This message has been edited by kudu)

Beavah writes: "Kudu...you may only explain in ways everyone can understand what you think is the best way for a troop or district to put together a program or training, and your reasons." One way to use the old materials to "re-invent Boy Scouts" is to rescue a "Troop in Trouble," maybe as a Wood Badge Ticket item. Ask your District Commissioner for a list of Troops of around four (4) Scouts with NO Cub Scout "feeder Pack." This is the ideal Troop for re-invention because changing a working Troop culture is always dangerous, but with four Scouts what do you have to loose? You WILL need to get access to a local school during school hours unless you know a better way to recruit 15 new Scouts a year. Often the common wisdom is that such a thing "is against school policy." You need to find someone inside who CAN arrange it. This will give you access to all of the boys who dropped out of Cub Scouts. See: http://inquiry.net/adult/recruiting.htm The last time I did this, my connection turned out to be two emo Scouts who spent enough time in detention and suspension to know that the vice-principal in charge of discipline was pro-Scouting They arranged the recruiting presentation for me. The younger emo became Patrol Leader, and then SPL. Beavah writes: "As close as I can figure, Kudu advocates a very limited set of things. 1) Scouting as conceived in America by Hillcourt circa 1950-70." I would say 1936-1965. 1936 was the year of the publication of Hillcourt's 1,166 page Handbook for Scoutmasters. This is the most comprehensive Scouter "how-to" book in the history of Scouting, world-wide. It is THE book to buy if you want to "re-invent" Boy Scouts. Every page has at least one new idea. Paradoxically, 1,166 new ideas gives you freedom from theory: The flexibility to adapt the program to the Scouts' personalities. This is called "Troop culture." You can find used copies for less than $10 per volume at AddAll. See: http://tinyurl.com/5sjvz3 IMPORTANT: To find the correct edition, look for "Volume 1" or "Volume 2" in the description, starting on "page 2" of the above URL! Some of the 1940s printings of the 3rd edition include the Patrol Leader Training course, "Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol" on pages 208 i - 208 xvi: http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm The golden era of Scouting ended with the addition of specific Position of Responsibility advancement requirements sometime around 1965, the year of Hillcourt's retirement. Beavah writes: "That's not the same thing as either B-P scouting or "traditional" scouting as practiced here or elsewhere in the 1910-30 timeframe. Yes, that was the first dark period for the Patrol System in America, but it is a GOOD time to look at Baden-Powell's program to see what Scouting is like without schoolwork. Baden-Powell's "final version" of his Game can be found in his 1938 PO&R: A 17MB (72 dpi) scan of the 1938 Canadian version of Baden-Powell's Policy, Organisation, & Rules (PO&R) can be found online at the following URL. http://www.scoutscan.com/history/scoutbook_72dpi.pdf An easier to read 70 MB (150 dpi) version can be found at: http://www.scoutscan.com/history/scoutbook_150dpi.pdf That is the kind of thing that you can just skim through at first (it is very confusing for American readers). Beavah writes: "2) Much tighter focus on Patrol Method" Yes, the Patrol Method is not ONE method in which Scouting can be carried on. It is the ONLY method! Beavah writes: "(which might pose interestin' challenges when most troops are fairly small, on the order of 15 lads or so)" The Patrol Method does NOT depend on dividing a small Troop into two Patrols. The Patrol Method depends on dividing the Scouts from the adults The time for two Patrols is when you have at least 10 REGULAR CAMPERS and two natural leaders. Beavah writes: "3) Youth leadership (by patrol), includin' independent camping and travel." Yeah, except for the independent travel part. I train Scouts HOW to camp without adults someday, but I don't tell them that. The best Patrols will think of it on their own. When I rescue a Troop in Trouble, the first thing I do is identify Top Dog. Basically I look for the smartest, most outspoken kid. Often he appears to be against everything I stand for, but Top Dog usually has the following qualities: 1) Above average IQ and verbal skills; 2) A natural sense of fair play, especially when adults are not looking (see Scout Law for specifics); 3) An absolute love of outdoor adventure which once a month places Troop campouts above sports or a weekend job; 4) A bearing that discourages anarchy when the adults aren't looking. A real leader MUST have control. At the first meeting all of us sit around a table and plan a campout. I take the role of Patrol Leader, as in the Green Bar Patrol training course referenced above. I want to make a fresh start, so I might pick a camping location they have never been to, maybe just a remote corner of a local Scout camp. As we talk about camping, Top Dog will begin to suggest things. He might be hostile at first. I write down his ideas and ask him for clarification, rewording his statements out-loud in a positive way as I write. Usually Top Dog is NOT the Patrol Leader or SPL because of the previous adults, as explained in my last 941 "negative" posts One of our methods in the Scout movement for taming a hooligan is to appoint him head of a Patrol. He has all the necessary initiative, the spirit and the magnetism for leadership, and when responsibility is thus put upon him it gives him the outlet he needs for his exuberance of activity, but gives it in a right direction.""--Baden-Powell, from the article "Are Our Boys Degenerating?" circa 1918. I don't appoint anybody or suggest elections. I just ask lots of questions and defer to Top Dog as much as possible. Scouting is based on Baden-Powell's observation that in any natural gang of boys, the natural leader emerges. Naturally. We plan a menu based on what they would like to eat if they did not have to cook it or clean it up. I bring a Dutch Oven cookbook and tell them I will clean their Dutch Ovens if they find something in the book they want to cook. Usually there is a kid who loves to cook. We brainstorm an equipment list, with me steering it in the direction of mostly light-weight stuff except for the Dutch ovens. The second meeting revolves around camping equipment. The entire Troop of four Scouts rummages though the Troop's stuff. I look for the most obsessive-compulsive Scout to be a possible Quartermaster. I ask him questions, usually a Scout who is obsessive about equipment knows where everything is. Finally I hand him a clipboard with the equipment list. Clipboards are important I own enough backpacks, small tents, and backpacking stoves for a small Troop, so we will just take some Troop cooking gear and "backpack" a half-mile. Just far enough to get away from the cars and to get everybody used to the adults being separated from the Scouts. Maybe just 50 feet at first. By then Top Dog is emerging as the uncontested leader, but 50 feet is close enough to make sure he is doing OK. If not, I take him aside and ask questions. Well, that is what I do in the first two weeks. Kudu

Narraticong writes: "Anyway, before we do Roses and Thorns at our Troop meeting Wednesday night, I'd like to see what some of you have to think about this!" You mean in terms that boys can understand? Beavah accuses me of "hyperbole," but the easiest way to understand the relationship of Leadership Development to the Patrol Method (and to explain it to boys who have been forced to endure business manager training exercises) is to compare the BSA to Little League. Narraticong writes: "There were no typical Scout skills events, all focused on leadership and team building. As I wrote in another thread, the problem with Scouting is that after 1972, "team-building" theory (blindfold exercises, etc.) replaced specialized Patrol Leader Training that taught Patrol Leaders how to use Scout skills to lead a Patrol into the woods. See "Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol": http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm "Teamwork" is one of the three aims of Little League. Would you use the abstract FORMING, STORMING, NORMING, PERFORMING team development theory that replaced Patrol Leader Training to train a Little League pitcher? Would you use the abstract SMART Goals (Specific, Measurable, Attainable, Relevant, Timely) to help a Little League batter to "set goals that keep him tight and focused," as we do with Patrol Leaders? The difference between the BSA and Little League is that Little League's Congressional Charter does not give it a monopoly on the word "baseball." Little League must play to its base because unlike the BSA it competes in a free market. Boys can go elsewhere to play baseball if their adult leaders start attending Wood Badge. Your Scouts did what adults should have the courage to do: JUST SAY "NO" to Leadership Development! You should be proud of them and your Troop's program. Kudu

"Observations are not personal attacks" Sure they are. If you can not discuss Scouting topics like Baden-Powell's 100 yard distance between Patrols, then discredit the idea by attempting to discredit the person. "and humility is the greatest trait that a boy can witness from his mentor." and non sequiturs the most funny.