Kudu

This is from the spun thead "What is it Based On?" Bob White writes: Kudu you run various elements together as if they all meant the same thing. The patrol method, is a separate issue from Leadership Development Method. Not all junior leaders are part of a patrol, and not all junior leaders are patrol leaders. That is precisely the point, isn't it? Leadership Development was invented in 1972 by the same people who invented for the "Urban Emphasis" demographic a path to Eagle that did not require a single campout. If you are not required to ever go camping to earn Eagle, then why center Patrol Leader Training on hiking and camping? Leadership Development invented exactly the same training for all "Junior Leaders" so that the Troop Librarian can learn the same "important leadership skills" as the Patrol Leader. So "Patrol Leader Training" (how to plan and lead Patrol Hikes and Patrol Overnights) became "Junior Leader Training" (how to "get and give information," how to "manage learning," etc.). The training was moved indoors. Is it really any wonder that Troops stopped allowing their Patrol Leaders to Hike and Camp without adults hovering a few yards away? The camping requirements for Eagle were restored eight years later, but Leadership Development remained abstract and classroom-centered. Bob White writes: The Patrol Method is not the same as the leadership development method yet you constantly intermix them. Because Leadership Development replaced Patrol Leader Training (specific Outdoor Leadership Skills) with "Junior Leader Training" (abstract indoor manager skills). Suppose we did the same thing with BSA Lifeguard: Any Scout could then earn his six month POR credit by running for BSA Lifeguard in a popularity contest held every six months. Troop BSA Lifeguard Training would consist of teaching the BSA Lifeguards the BSA Mission Statement, Life Skills in a Values-Based Environment, some fake B-P quotes, The BSA Vision Statement, EDGE, and handing him a "Position Description" card with the new Lifeguard Responsibilities dumbed-down to the level of "Leadership Development:" A BSA Lifeguard: Sets the example. Wears the uniform correctly. Lives the Scout Oath and Law. Shows Scout spirit. Gets wet. Blows whistle. Then the Bob Whites of the world would explain that the "Swimming Method" has NOTHING to do with the depth of water. The ancient requirement to jump into water over your head is "old fashioned," and that for anyone to state that a pool must be more than a foot deep in order to use the Swimming Method effectively is just silly. When Patrol Leaders were trained to conduct their own Patrol Hikes and Patrol Overnights they had controlled-risk responsibilities similar to those of a BSA Life Guard. The fact that everyone so fiercely fights separating the Patrols on Troop campouts is because we no longer train and trust Patrol Leaders, just as we would no longer allow "Real" swimming if we used the same Leadership Development techniques to train BSA Life Guards as we do BSA Patrol Leaders. That should not be so difficult to understand. The reason that people attack my personality and play word games with "300 feet" is because they can not deal with the obvious real-world limitations of Leadership Development without risking the accusation that they are not "Loyal" to the BSA. Bob White writes: The BSA, as you continue to point out in your page references, supports the practice of patrols doing activities on theior own and then in another breath you say that the BSA no longer follows the that idea. Because the Guide to Safe Scouting still allows Patrol Hikes and Patrol Overnights without adult supervision, but we do no longer train Patrol Leaders how to actually conduct Patrol Hikes and Patrol Overnights (if only in the context of Troop Campouts). That should not be so difficult to understand, Bob White. Bob White writes: The BSA does, its just that not all leaders follow the BSA program. There is very little about the Patrol Method in the training or resources of the BSA program that has changed over the decades. Not all scoutmasters followed the program in the past and not all follow it today. But the BSA still teaches and supports it. That is simply not true. The BSA no longer offers "Patrol Leader Training." If you or your leaders followed the BSA program prior to 1972 it would be obvious that the following specific techniques for training Patrol Leaders how to plan and conduct Patrol Hikes and Patrol Overnights are missing from any current BSA training course: http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm Bob White writes: Perhaps you live in a part of the country where campgrounds are always large enough to allow Patrols to be 300 feet apart. But you need to come to the realization that that is not always the case. not all camping areas will have that features available. It depends on your priorities. If you always camp in "campgrounds" that offer warm showers and flush toilets (the standard definition of a "campground," I think), then your Troop will camp at "campgrounds" where separating the Patrols by more than a few feet seems impossible. I have never camped at a Scout Camp where we couldn't separate the Patrols by 300 feet (it helps to take the time to get to know the Ranger). Bob White writes: Perhaps in your area State and county parks allow youth to be in a campsite without an adult . Not all states allow that. All of the National Forests that I have camped in allowed Patrol Camping if you were 300 feet from the nearest road, parking lot, or established campground. Obviously some state and county "parks" are more restrictive than National Forests. Bob White writes: For you to state that you have to be 300 feet away from another patrol in order to use the Patrol Method effectively is just silly. It is one of the very few elements of Baden-Powell's Wood Badge that remain in some Wood Badge courses. Bob White writes: There IS NO Wood badge approach that patrols be 300 ft apart. I have no idea where you get such things. After having been in several Wood Badge courses I don't even know what you mean by a "Wood Badge approach". Which Wood Badge? Which actiuvity? Which Skill? Um, the actual distance (be it 50, 100, 200, or Baden-Powell's 300 feet), is secondary to camping out of sight and usually out of earshot of the other Patrols. The basic idea was expressed by the eminent Scouting authority "Bob White" when he wrote: "I have been involved in several Wood Badge courses and in each one the patrols camped out of sight, and usually out of earshot, from the other patrols." Bob White writes: We break particiupants in basic leader tarining in small groups. We break participants in New Leader Essentials into small groups. Yeah, this may be the reason that so many trained Scouters think of the "Patrol Method" as breaking up into eight-person groups to do "team-building exercises," rather than "Patrol Hike and Patrol Overnight planning exercises." My Scouts always come back from NYLT with notebooks full of these "team-building exercises." At least my BSA Lifeguards do not come back with them yet Bob White writes: A lot of what you post is contrived to fit your opinion has no little relationship to scout past or present. That is just your opinion, an ad hominem contrivance to move the subject away from Leadership Development and the Patrol Method. Your opinion has no relationship to my posts, past or present. Kudu

The entire contents of Dan Beard's handbook for his fiercely boy-run pre-Scouting organizations, The Boy Pioneers: Sons of Daniel Boone, can be found at The Inquiry Net: http://inquiry.net/traditional/beard/index.htm Also included are many chapters from his following books: The Outdoor Handy Book The American Boy's Handy Book Field and Forest Handy Book Shelters, Shacks, Shanties Plus the "Scouting" chapter from his auto-biography Hardly a Man is Now Alive. See also the link to Dan Beard's Camp Uniform with information about his camp. For more information about Traditional Scouting (including Ernest Thompson Seton's entire pre-Scouting handbook, The Birch Bark Roll), See: http://inquiry.net/traditional/index.htm Kudu

"To say that distance is not an element of the Patrol Method is like saying that the Five Mile Hike is measured only by the adults' abilities to train and trust the junior hikers." Bob White writes: That statement makes no sense whatsoever. You cannot compare an organizational element to a physical activity. Prior to the 1972 invention of "Leadership Development" (of which Servant Leadership is a subset) the BSA defined the organizational element called "A Real Patrol" by its physical activities: Patrol Hiking: Boys, and especially Scouts, want to go hiking. The out-of-doors fascinates them. The woods, the rivers, the "wide open spaces" call them. And they obey. As soon as you are able you will want to take your boys on Patrol Hikes. You want your Patrol to be a real one, and only a hiking Patrol is a real Patrol (Handbook for Patrol Leaders, Chapter VII). and Patrol Camping: One of your greatest services as a Patrol Leader is to try to make your Patrol into a Camping Patrol trained in the ways of the experienced campers. This takes time. It takes also patience and perseverance. But it can be done, and you are will under way toward doing it, the day you have made your boys into real hikers as described in the previous chapter (Handbook for Patrol Leaders, Chapter VIII). Bob White, you claim to have been influenced by William Hillcourt. If that is really true then his official BSA policy that "Real Patrols" required the physical activities of adult-free hikes and campouts should be crystal clear to you. For instance: Patrols are ready to go hiking and camping on their own just as soon as the Patrol Leader has been trained, and the Scouts have learned to take care of themselves....It should be your goal to get your Patrol Leaders qualified for hike and camp leadership at an early stage (Handbook for Scoutmasters (fourth edition), pages 118-119). Bob White writes: There is nothing magical about the distance of 300 ft that makes it a reuired elemt in order to be able to group into clusters that can be lead by another youth. To suggest that a youth cannot lead a group of 8 scouts unless they camp 300 feet from another group is just silly. It is just silly to say that "the effectiveness of the Patrol Method hinges on the adult leaders' abilities to train and trust the junior leaders," and then to tell them "OK, set your Patrols up close together so that I can trust you." The Wood Badge approach of separated Patrols (with your best Patrols out of sight, and out of earshot--roughly 300 feet) on a Troop Campout offers a compromise between the BSA definition of "Real Patrols" and the reality that since 1972 BSA training has eliminated "Patrol Leader Training" (how to take your Patrols on Patrol Hikes and Patrol Campouts) and replaced it with Leadership Development concepts like "Servant Leadership," so it would be foolhardy to allow Patrols to go off hiking and camping on their own unless you go beyond mere leadership concepts and use the old BSA training techniques or something like them. The problem with Servant Leadership (SL) is that its advocates never talk about how their Patrols venture out away from the adults' close supervision: That is a discussion "hijack!" They can only defend SL with the idea that SL is "modern" and that trusting Real Patrols is "old fashioned," or they use personal attacks with the goal of making my personality (rather than the Patrol Method) the issue for debate. The only person with experience in using Servant Leadership in what the BSA defined as a "Real Patrol" is jblake47, and he is off to Gettysburg's 145th reenactment with his Venturing Crew. Likewise I am packing to leave for summer camp, so this will be my last post until sometime in July. Kudu

Bob White writes: I have been involved in several Wood Badge courses and in each one the patrols camped out of sight, and usually out of earshot, from the other patrols. More inportantly scout leaders need to understand that distance from another unit is not an element of either the Patrol Method or the Den Method. The effectiveness of the Patrol Method hinges on the adult leaders abilities to train and trust the junior leaders. So to suggest as Kudu does that it is dependent on any specific distance is untrue and simply a personal preference of Kudu's and unrelated in any way to the Methods of scouting or their effectiveness in achieving the Aims of scouting. To say that distance is not an element of the Patrol Method is like saying that the Five Mile Hike is measured only by the adults' abilities to train and trust the junior hikers. Distance is the medium, and distance is the test. Baden-Powell put this distance at 300 feet, and the BSA's definition of a "Real Patrol" was one in which the Patrol Leader could organize Patrol Hikes and Patrol Overnights. Apparently some Wood Badge courses still include this one remaining vestige of B-P's training, the distance of 300 feet between Patrols, but because it is not relevant to using manager theory to train Cub Scouters, few Wood Badgers are able to see why distance is the measure of the Patrol Method. As Marshall McLuhan wrote: "I wouldn't have seen it if I hadn't believed it," or "I'll see it when I believe it" (also attributed to other authors). Bob White writes: Kudu's biggest weakness in knowing and using the scouting program is that he supports a program of the past that he never actually experienced, because he was not there, I was there as a Scout, and the BSA's "Patrol Leader Training" course still trained Patrol Leaders how to run a BSA "Real Patrol" when I became an adult. The Guide to Safe Scouting still allows Patrol Hikes and Patrol Overnights, and an article of mine about a Patrol that mastered them appeared in Scouter.Com's print journal Scouter Magazine. The Real Patrol Method lives on in this country, despite the fact that "Patrol Leader Training" was replaced by "Leadership Development" in 1972. evmori writes: All this discussion about tenting patrols 1/4 of a mile apart & the differences of the current Wood Badge course from the good Wood Badge course are wonderful, but what do they have to do with servant leadership? I stated that I never hear how servant leadership facilitates an increase in the distance between Patrols, or Patrol Cooking at summer camp, to which Stosh replied that it does indeed help the Troop he serves accomplish those ends. So from this it would appear that SL is worthy of further study by those of us who value B-P's and Green Bar Bill's Traditional ("Real") Patrols. SL might also turn out to be relevant to one of Baden-Powell's five methods called "Service for Others (Chivalry and Self-Sacrifice the Basis of Religion)," See: http://inquiry.net/traditional/b-p/scoutmastership/service.htm I also stated that until recently I thought that one Patrol per Troop Campsite was the standard operating procedure for all outdoor Boy Scout Division courses (IOLS, WB, NYLT), and that every trained Scouter could draw from that common experience. Another significant result of this thread was Stosh's paradigm shift of framing Baden-Powell's "300 feet" rule as the "WB approach of separated patrols." This may produce far more "Aha moments" than my historical approach, as many Scouters realize that they have already experienced the dangerous-sounding bedrock of Traditional Scouting themselves. Kudu(This message has been edited by Kudu)

OldGreyEagle writes: self-appointed insult belittle inferior scorn diatribe tangent wrong hatefull condescending OK, so if I hang out with a bunch of fuzzy-bunny Den Leaders for three long weekends of Wood Badge to learn "21st century" business manager techniques, I can become a non-judgemental person like you? OldGreyEagle writes: Well Kudu I admit I have no experience with having patrols camp 300 feet apart, and I wouldnt have known it unless you mentioned it. Well, as Marshall Mcluhan said, "The Medium is the Message" My point was that you DO have experience with having patrols camp 300 feet apart (the "medium"). My guess is that you don't want to talk about that because you know that 21st century buisness manager skills dumb the Patrol Method down to the Cub Scout level, causing most Boy Scout Patrols to camp very close together. Therefore to prove you are loyal to Wood Badge you must not encourage Patrols to camp 300 feet apart, even though it was the medium of camping that you yourself experienced at Wood Badge. Marshall McLuhan also said, "Everybody experiences far more than he understands. Yet it is experience, rather than understanding, that influences behavior." If Kudu was all sweetness and light, would your own experience convince you that 300 foot Wood Badge Patrols are close to what the BSA once defined as "Real Patrols," and squeezing Patrols close together is the Den Method? Just curious. Kudu

I asked the three why their buddies left the troop and I was emphatically told it was because I was using boy-led, patrol-method and they didn't want to work. As Beavah might say, boys are a very conservative lot. They don't like change. So for that reason now is the perfect time to think ahead before the big influx of new Scouts. Two things to consider are rituals and equipment. When I had a similar opportunity as you do now, I researched Traditional Troop opening and closing ceremonies. With some horse-trading I was able to convince the two Patrol Leaders to open the meetings with only a very brief Pledge to the Flag. From there they launched directly into the meeting without any delay. For closing we built a Scout Oath and Law candle assembly. We made any absolutely necessary announcements first and then we turned out all of the lights. The Patrol Leaders would light a candle for each of the points of the Oath and Law: PL (facing the Troop from behind the rows of candles): "Duty to God, Country and Law" All (very loud): "On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law" (PL lights first Oath candle) PL: "Duty to others" All: "To help other people at all times;"(PL lights second Oath candle) PL: "Duty to self" All: "To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight." (PL lights third Oath candle) PL: "Trustworthy" All (very loud): "A Scout is Trustworthy" (PL lights the Trustworthy candle) PL: "Loyal" All: "A Scout is Loyal" (PL lights the Loyal candle, etc.) I would take a very short Scoutmaster minute, then a Patrol Leader would dismiss the Scouts to leave the meeting room in complete silence with the candles still burning behind them. Someone would pass out fliers in the hall in place of most of the usual spoken announcements. The new Scouts were all rough-and-tumble boys, but in Scoutmaster conferences many of them said the "deep" ritual ceremony was their favorite part of the otherwise noisy meeting. Another thing to think about is equipment. Now is the time to start purchasing lightweight "backpacking" Patrol equipment rather than the usual heavy duty car camping gear, and decide on your joining fees accordingly. If you want small Scouts to spread their Patrols out widely from the parking lot, lightweight equipment is the way to go. Some Traditional Troop meeting plans: http://inquiry.net/patrol/troop/index.htm Some advice on lightweight Patrol equipment: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/equipment/lightweight_camping.htm Kudu

OldGreyEagle writes: I find I am trying to come up with an explanation that will resonate with you and am lacking, I blame me Why not talk about something more interesting, like your personal experience with Baden-Powell's standard of 300 feet between Patrols, and how that is different from Patrols crowded together?

I agree with Gold Winger, I don't allow my Scouts to laugh at loud farts either. Its the silent farts that add up to make a big difference.

OldGreyEagle writes: Lets not change the subject Kudu, do you think your style in pointing out the foibles of the BSA to its proponents is the best way to have people think about your issues? I don't watch broadcast TV unless I happen to hear about a program somewhere else. It was not until their third or forth seasons that I discovered some of my favorite programs including "24," "Rescue Me," and (just a few weeks ago) "House M.D.". So now as previously with "24" and "Rescue Me" I am watching the DVDs of the past seasons of "House M.D." For those who are not familiar with the program, the title character Dr. Gregory House is played by Hugh Laurie, the English comedian of "Fry and Laurie" fame (Laurie played Prince George and Lieutenant George in "Blackadder"). The character "Dr. House" is based on Sherlock Holmes. That is the kind of humor that I enjoy and yes, OGE, I find useful for looking with fresh eyes at widely-held common assumptions. The BSA is funny because of one simple irony: The Traditional program was destroyed by the 1972 progressive (liberal) success in dumbing down the Advancement, Outdoor, Patrol, and Uniform Methods to the absolute lowest possible denominator, to make Scouting inclusive enough for the "urban youth" demographic. Now 36 years later because the BSA embodies the significant real-world application of policy against Girls, Gays, and the Godless, social conservatives circle the wagons and blindly defend the progressive 1972 invention of Leadership Development (and its intentional destruction of the Patrol Method), just as (until last year's Switchbacks) they defended the "deeply-held values" represented by forcing boys into the 1980 dress-designer Uniform. Social conservatives and their liberal masters: What is not funny about that? OldGreyEagle writes: On Friday, June 20 in this thread you posted: "As chance would have it, I recently landed in a Council where we will be able to structure the Patrols the same way. It is surprising how many of you attended Wood Badge where presumably the Patrols were all crowded together on a single parade field." I posted the Wood Badge course that I took had single patrols set at Troop Campsites and then you tell me that this is standard procedure. I wrote that "Until recently I thought that one Patrol per Troop Campsite was the standard operating procedure for all such outdoor Boy Scout Division courses (IOLS, WB, NYLT), and that every trained Scouter could draw from that common experience. Given the howls of outrage from the Troop Method chorus, I guess not." OldGreyEagle writes: If this is the norm, why would you presume that many of us who took Wood Badge were crowded together on a single parade field. Um, because when I suggest that Scout Patrols be separated in the same way as our Patrols were at Wood Badge, most Wood Badgers howl that this Traditional Patrol Method has not been used in a hundred years. Kudu

jblake47 writes: This means I'll ideally have approximately 75-85 boys attending which I believe is larger than the last WB class taught at the camp. Baden-Powell wrote that he was only able to get to know 16 Scouts well enough to guide them, but (he said) since most Scoutmasters were twice as good at Scouting than he was, he recommended that Troops be no larger than 32 Scouts. It looks like you will be at more than five times Baden-Powell's personal limit with only five original "older" trained Scouts. Keep us up to date on your efforts! jblake47 writes: If I were to suggest setting it up in WB fashion, I am almost certain the very first comment from the camp/council staff will be the suggestion to consolidate patrols into the sites and fill them to their recommended capacity. One benefit of 75-85 Scouts is significant economic clout. You should be able to negotiate a win-win arrangement with a flexible summer camp somewhere. Shop around to find one that is open to how you (the customer) want to set it up. Remember that the summer camp staff may not have any idea of how WB is set up, and you may be the expert consultant here. Kudu

Stosh, For what it is worth: 1) Some BSA camps still do a good job of offering Patrol Cooking. This is important in bear country. I Googled "Patrol Cooking" (with the quotes) and my favorite camps came up. Did you try '"Patrol Cooking" Wisconsin'? 2) Local Council summer camps may take you for granted, but out-of-Council camps always review our feedback forms very carefully. When we return for a second year I am always surprised at how many of our specific recommendations have been implemented. 3) Summer camp is a business. When you "Just Say No!" and take your business out of Council, be sure to write a detailed explanation to a local sympathetic BSA professional (they do exist) and a Commissioner group in your Council. Some Councils keep track of exactly where every Troop goes to summer camp and why. 4) Remember that terms like "boy led" and "Patrol Method" have been corrupted to mean "Troop Method" now (volunteer to Staff the "Patrol Method" session of Scoutmaster Specific training to catch up on the new meanings). So when providing feedback to your local Council and your out-of-Council camp, be very specific about your Troop's meanings for those terms. 5) We have found that when we camp at the very end of the camp's season, and the furthest from the center of camp, adjacent Troop sites are often vacant so our Patrols can move in and take them over if they are still vacant on Monday. Kudu (This message has been edited by Kudu)

OldGreyEagle writes: If indeed the purpose of Internet Fourms is to exhange ideas, do you think the best way to exhange an idea is to smack the other person over the head with your idea while hurling foul insults at them? "Nitwit" is a "foul insult," compared to those against me in this thread? And you think that you are a neutral moderator? You should at least realize that they are trying to move the discussion from the nature of Scouting to a forum about me. Apparently you are all too willing to take that ball and run with it yourself. So should we now talk about you? Or should we take the high road in such situations and ignore it? Or poke fun at the nitwit low road so that others identify it? I dunno. I do agree with Stosh's post, especially: "If one can't make a significant comment on the forum in response to someone, it is far easier to discredit the person making the post than it might be to critique the comment. This always makes for a great flame on that person...and they can walk away thinking they have done everyone a great service by trashing this other person's ideas." OldGreyEagle writes: it occurs to me, when I took Wood Badge for the 21rst Century, we did it at a Scout Summer Camp. Each patrol was at a Troop Campsite. Now, I admit I never did measure the distance between the sites, but they are large enough that we never did hear any noise from the adjacement patrols. It may well have been 300 feet, or close too, maybe more. The exact distance is not the point, of course. Until recently I thought that one Patrol per Troop Campsite was the standard operating procedure for all such outdoor Boy Scout Division courses (IOLS, WB, NYLT), and that every trained Scouter could draw from that common experience. Given the howls of outrage from the Troop Method chorus, I guess not. Kudu

John-in-KC writes: Remember, CDs nationwide are obligated to present the curriculum... not their curriculum. So what? My last Council separated the Patrols of all Boy Scout outdoor courses (IOLS, WB, NYLT) by more than 300 feet. The curriculum content is nowhere as important as the participants' actual experience of a Real Patrol. As chance would have it, I recently landed in a Council where we will be able to structure the Patrols the same way. It is surprising how many of you attended Wood Badge where presumably the Patrols were all crowded together on a single parade field. John-in-KC writes: If you choose to just keep complaining on an internet forum, there's a different name for you, Sir: Don Quixote de la Mancha. If you recall the plot, that's a tragedy. Are you really a tragic character... Hardly. My Website has served 32 million (32,007,263) page views of Traditional Scouting information to seven million (7,205,544) unique visitors. What I value is popular enough. My very first page in 1997 was a photographic comparison of nylon "zip-offs" to the BSA official dress-designer version: http://inquiry.net/uniforms/bdu.htm That winter I spent a week with the Director of Training for the BSA Boy Scout Division at the national OKPIK certification course in Minnesota. After five days of spirited debates between the two of us, he walked over to share a sewing machine with me for an evening session on how winter clothing is made. Of course I was wearing my nylon version of what the BSA Uniform should look like. He told me that he and other senior executives had already tried to introduce nylon zip-offs as an official Uniform, but they had been blocked (presumably by the national uniform committee). As a matter of fact, the "Centennial Uniform" was produced by circumventing the national uniform committee through a loop-hole that allows BSA Supply to make "minor variations" to the official uniform. So, it is not through BSA national committees that you make things change. There are millionaire executives who know perfectly well that courses like TLT should teach practical skills, rather than wasting time on abstract things like the Mission and Vision Statements. But to change them you must "Just Say No!" to bad products: "As Franklin Roosevelt often told citizens after they had made their impassioned pleas, 'You've convinced me. Now go out and force me to do it'." You simply do not understand the purpose of Internet forums, John. They are a place to exchange ideas. You (and your nitwit fellow-travelers) lash out with personal attacks and you trivialize the great traditions of Scouting because your training does not allow you to think things that you assume the BSA no longer wants you to think. Kudu and a 300 foot Beaver too!

SR540Beaver writes: They don't need NYLT. They just need to camp 300 feet from each other. My last Council separated by more than 300 feet the Patrols of participants for all Boy Scout outdoor training programs, NYLT included. That is how I first noticed the Baden-Powell quote. Our Troop used NYLT as a requirement to serve as PL or SPL. It worked better than an age or Rank filter because when I noticed a Scout with potential, I could move heaven and earth to get him to NYLT, thereby entering him in the small pool of candidates. Lazy and self-centered Scouts never got around to going. gwd-scouter writes: I have described this Scout (and his mother) in other posts as being somewhat difficult to deal with. The Scouts that stand up to me are the ones that I always encourage into leadership. As Baden-Powell said, "One of our methods in the Scout movement for taming a hooligan is to appoint him head of a Patrol. He has all the necessary initiative, the spirit and the magnetism for leadership, and when responsibility is thus put upon him it gives him the outlet he needs for his exuberance of activity, but gives it in a right direction." Does this Scout have a leadership position? If not, do you have a strategy? Kudu And a 300 foot Beaver too.

John, To change things just say "No!" to bad products. And demonstrate practical alternatives. That is how we got the outdoor Uniform. Kudu

emb021 writes: Servant-leadership and all other forms of leadership development have NOTHING to do with the specific job skills for a position. Its a mistake to assume that AND a mistake to condemn them for that. Its like condeming a screwdriver for not being a hammer. Gunny2862 writes: Servant Leadership is "again" attitude related not skill related, It is intended to be used in conjunction with other techniques, servant leadership could certainly be seen as ineffectual by someone who caught the attitude but did'nt know how to do anything. You are still trying to "condemn a hammer for not being screwdriver." emb021 clearly gets it. You apparently still don't. I totally get it Gunny! Servant Leadership is just one pounding device in a bag of hammers called "Leadership Development." In 1972 Leadership Development melted down all of the screwdrivers (Patrol Leader Training) and pounded them into hammers (Junior Leader Training, 11 Skills Wood Badge, etc.), but is not the hammers' fault that all we have now is hammers! If anything, we need even more hammers because when emb021 got to college he discovered that he could not use his PL and SPL "leadership skills" to pound things! The problem is that ALL BSA training is a series of hammers, and if the only tool you have is a hammer then everything looks like a nail ("leadership"). For instance, in Scoutmaster specific training, the "Patrol Method" session mentions leadership fifty (50) times in 25 minutes, but never refers to Patrol Leaders or the Patrol Method. The BSA defines the "Patrol Method" as a bunch of nails, causing emb021 and others to define the "HOW" of Scouting as "servant-leadership, situational leadership, team development, etc etc." But the "HOW" of a hiking "Real Patrol" is to how to plan the route, plan the games, plan the food, plan what Advancement skills to teach and sign off, etc. etc. In Patrol Leader Training, the SM acts as the Patrol Leader and holds a Patrol Meeting to show Scouts how to plan a hike, then that Patrol of Patrol Leaders goes on an actual hike. Likewise for a Patrol Overnight. Leadership Development is a series of hammers ending with the ultimate sledge hammer, Wood Badge. But the Patrol Method is more like an erector set. The result of only learning how to use hammers is that we make our Patrols camp close together so that we keep things simple enough to build without a screwdriver. Gunny2862 writes: YOU are the one not addressing the theme of this thread. Yes, the theme of this thread is one particular pounding device, but the Patrol Method does not need so many hammers: It is a GAME! I understand that y'all love hammers and want to make Scouting all about hammers, but Basic Training already provides more hammers than any Scout or Scouter needs to build things with an erector set. We must "Just Say No!" to Wood Badge for as long as it takes to melt the hammers back into the right tools to build "Real Patrols." Kudu

emb021 writes: Developing a patrol leader means you need to cover the HOW (servant-leadership, situational leadership, team development, etc etc) AND the WHAT ("how to use Patrol Meetings away from the Troop to plan a Patrol Hike, Patrol-based Advancement, and a Patrol Overnight" etc). That is precisely the point. When Leadership Development was invented in 1972, it replaced the WHAT and the real HOW called "Patrol Leader Training") with your abstract version of "HOW" ("Junior Leader Training"). TLT is just more of the same. Kudu

Gunny2862 writes: I am open to persuasion but you are in danger of placing yourself as just a nut job Yeah, it is easier to call someone a "nut job" than it is to address the issues, isn't it? Defenders of Servant Leadership used Christian scripture to explain its meaning, and I countered with how any model in the context of Leadership Development is the opposite of the truths that Jesus (and presumably Greenleaf) represent. Gunny2862 writes: Go read a book and then come back and try some reasoned persuasion. I will go read a book as soon as any one of you can describe how you used Servant Leadership to train even one of your Patrol Leaders to use Patrol Meetings away from the Troop to plan a Patrol Hike, Patrol-based Advancement, and a Patrol Overnight (if only 300 feet from the adults on a monthly campout). I might be convinced by Stosh if he has gotten that far, because he uses more Traditional Methods. It is only fair that you demonstrate how the fuzzy kittens of Leadership Development can match Green Bar Bill's version of BSA Scouting (the training that Leadership Development destroyed). Gunny2862 writes: disparaging other leaders isn't how you get them to change - maybe showing them advantages to GBB's and B-Ps program (as you see it) might work but if all you do is bust our chops do you really think we're going to listen? I am against stupid ideas, not stupid individuals. If you believe that I have personally attacked you, then perhaps you are overly-invested in a stupid idea I'm not in this for those of you who think that Wood Badge is a good idea. Some of you are too busy dreaming about how to leverage your destruction of the Patrol Method at summer camp into hiring salad bar contractors to seal the deal on "Summer camp as a vacation from the Patrol Method." As one Regional trainer of Wood Badge Directors put it, food cooked by adults simply tastes better than meals cooked by Scouts using the Patrol Method. No, my posts are intended for Gold Loops that read these forums to find out what people really think, and for the average Joes who refuse to pay $175 to spend three long weekends with a bunch of Den Leaders at Wood Badge, but can't quite put the right words together to explain how much that would really suck. Gunny2862 writes: I understand a lot about what you are Preaching about the Patrol method, but until I can get the boys to do the minimalist (according to your thinking) leadership activities of a "modern" Scout Troop they have no hope of doing what you are asking. I would be happy to trade war stories with you. Mine all start with looking for the Troop's most talented hooligans. Gunny2862 writes: But to just demand the change - it isn't going to happen especially in the metro areas. All of my experience is in mixed neighborhoods "in transition." Leadership Development was created to dumb the Outdoor Leadership Skills out of urban Scouting to make it possible for Star and Life Scouts who had never been on a campout to be "Patrol Leaders." It was a stupid idea. Kudu

Eolesen, Ten years ago Scouts-L readers like you accused me of mocking "Scouting's deeply held values" when I began to recommend buying olive-drab nylon zip-offs rather than the official dress-designer product that deeply embarrassed so many Scouts. Now I am mocking another inferior BSA product, Leadership Development. Like outdoor clothing, the potential market for outdoor Patrol-based Scouting is larger than for teaching indoor manager skills to boys. Certainly Jesus finds his message reflected more actively in Baden-Powell's "Patrol System" and Green Bar Bill's "Patrol Method" than in the destructive force of "Leadership Development." Kudu (This message has been edited by Kudu)

Before the 1972 invention of "Leadership Development," Patrol leadership was based on Baden-Powell's two-fold spiritual model of Scouting: 1) "The Religion of the Deep Woods" and 2) "Practical Christianity." 1) Leadership Development completely removed training in the leadership-based "Deep Woods" outdoor skills (How to conduct a Patrol Hike, a Patrol Overnight, and Patrol-based Advancement) for the benefit of the urban demographic, in the same way that Outdoor Leadership Skills were removed from Wood Badge and boxed as mere Advancement skills. 2) Practical Christianity, the free offering of one's time and talent without compensation (the same for adults and Scouts), was replaced by paying Scouts with Advancement credit for each six month leadership stint. Therefore the spiritual basis for Servant Leadership in the Leadership Develop Method would be more along the lines of: Robert Greenleaf called them together and said, "Holdest thou a popularity contest every six months to determine who shall be my rock in return for Advancement in this world. For verily I say unto you, he that doth not seek compensation for his good works playest not in the sandbox of adult life." Kudu (This message has been edited by Kudu)

John-in-KC writes: Oh, horsehockey. My Scouting was done on the 7th Edition of the Boy Scout Handbook (that means 1968-74 The Patrol Method was introduced to the BSA in the 1920s by James West and "Green Bar Bill" (GBB). Before GBB's retirement in 1965, there were no specific PORs required for advancement. The object of the Patrol Method was to have the best leaders serve as PLs and for them to select their SPL, so these positions were tied up longer without the pressure of regular "Troop" elections. Star requirements referred only to being "active in meetings, outdoor activities, and service projects," Life referred to accepting "responsibilities" in those activities, and Eagle merely to working actively as a "leader" in them. Specific leadership positions were not subject to advancement-driven Scouts taking them from more dedicated leaders just for the sake of a short six month requirement. The specification of specific leadership positions after GBB's retirement converted them from freely given Service to Others without thought for compensation (similar to that of the adult roles in Scouting), to something to be bartered away for advancement. This cheapened the spirit of service, and put pressure on higher turnover resulting in six month elections. John-in-KC writes: Yes, the buzzword POR is part of the 70s, as were skill awards. They are both part of the same deliberate move away from outdoor skills. PORs became a destructive force when Patrol Leader Training... (Learning how to run Patrol Meetings, Patrol Hikes, Patrol Overnights, and Patrol-based Advancement) ...was destroyed in 1972 to make way for Junior Leader Training that taught the "Nine (9) Leadership Skills" including: Getting and Giving Information, Setting the Example, Representing the Group, Managing Learning, etc. All in the context of dumbing leadership down to the level of non-camping Eagle Scouts. This is why Patrols camp so close together now. Creating "opportunities to learn from failure" has replaced specific training in how to run a "Real Patrol." Reality Check: Can anyone understand why replacing the nuts and bolts of how to run Patrol Meetings, Hikes, Overnights, and Advancement with how to "manage learning" would lead to less Patrol Meetings, Hikes, Overnights, and Patrol-based Advancement? Or did everyone drink the Kool-Aid? John-in-KC writes: Wanna know something else? Two of the Citizenships were on my Eagle Required MB list. What is your point? Schoolwork Merit Badges have always been a major difference between BSA Scouting and Baden-Powell's Scouting. "Give a boy a fish and he will eat for a day, teach a boy to be a 'manager of learning' and he will starve to death" Kudu

emb021 writes: Anyone who understands and teaches servant leadership could talk of objective accomplishments such that people who understand leadership could grasp. Many of the excellent books on SL speak of its real world use and value, in both the non-profit and the for profit worlds. That is precisely the point. You talk about "objective accomplishments," but never any specifics. Before Leadership Development was invented, it was common at PLC meetings for Patrol Leaders to report exactly how long their last Patrol Meeting had lasted and exactly what they had accomplished, exactly what distance their Patrol Hikes had covered, what they ate, and exactly what Advancement requirements had been signed off along the way. The only thing that Leadership Development has accomplished is the complete destruction of Patrol Meetings, Patrol Hikes, Patrol Overnights, and Patrol-based Advancement. Leadership Development is a parasite upon the Patrol Method. emb021 writes: Your repeated posts show a grave lack of understanding current thoughts in leadership development. Ever new idea is to be used to insult people. I am against stupid ideas, not stupid individuals. You are trying to pick a personal fight to distract from the fact that servant leadership can never talk about objective accomplishments. emb021 writes: White Stag is evil. Later its the One Minute Manager, later on its Situational Leadership. Now its servant leadership. You forgot "Fluffy-Bunny Critter-Fetish Wood Badge." If the 1972 "Leadership Development Method" was more like the 1972 "Personal Growth Method" where the Fuzzy-Kitten stuff does not require you to destroy practical outdoor Patrol Leader Training, I would not care. emb021 writes: It seems clear to me that if it wasn't invented by B-P &/or GBB, as far as you're concerned, its of no value. My Website features at least 1,500 pages of content by authors other than Baden-Powell and Green Bar Bill. emb021 writes: There doesn't seem to be any idea that current leadership development might not be a total change in leadership concepts of B-P et al, but prehaps a refinement and extension. "Refinement and extension" means that you actually "refine and extend" their "real world use and value," not dumb it down and call it modern. Baden-Powell's standard was 300 feet between Patrols, can you demonstrate that any of your techniques extend that to 330 feet? Or that Patrols hold more Patrol Meetings away from the Troop, or more Patrol Hikes away from the Troop, or more Patrol Overnights away from the Troop, or Patrol Advancement away from the "Troop Guide" and "Troop Instructor," or that Patrols do more Patrol Cooking at summer camp? If so, then sign me up! Kudu

John-in-KC writes: The best way to get patrol method, though, is to find a Scout Camp which reinforces the method as part of the way it does business. Yes, and the only way to find such a camp is to ask if they allow "Patrol Cooking." Such camps make it easy for Patrols to cook all of their meals in separate Patrol Campsites, as in jblake47's post, above. Brainstorming make-work "Patrol Activities" to "practice the Patrol Method" in a dining hall summer camp is always manufactured and contrived: A lame Cub Scout approach to Boy Scouting. Without Patrol Cooking you are not using the Patrol Method, so why pretend that you are? Kudu

BrentAllen writes: In fact, it states in the section on Short-Term Camping, page 683 "As far as the Troop Leaders are concerned, they should camp with the Patrols, but should have their own tents. Likewise they will eat with the Patrols, rotating and sharing in the cost." Short-Term Camp is a whole-Troop campout. This is where Patrol Leaders learn how to conduct their own campouts, and where the Scoutmaster can closely observe a trained Patrol Leader to determine when he is actually capable of leading Patrol Hikes and Patrol Overnights without adult supervision. How could the Scouts ever experience any leadership development through the Patrol Method with the adults so close by? Most men worked on Saturday mornings. On the preceding page it says "if the Scouts have had sufficient camp training they may be permitted to start out Friday after school under the leadership of a capable junior leader, to be joined by Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmasters the following day. It must be understood that the Scoutmaster (whether present or absent) is responsible" (Handbook for Scoutmasters, third edition, page 682, emphasis in the original). So if the Troop had "capable junior leaders," the first 24 hours of every such Short-Term Camp were adult-free. BrentAllen writes: The 300' rule is so important - the most important rule in Scouting, according to Kudu - how could they leave it out of the book? You won't find it in this book because it is Baden-Powell's standard. The goal of BSA Patrol Leader Training was to get the Patrols out hiking and camping without adult supervision: "While Patrols are encouraged to go hiking and camping on their own, obviously no group of raw recruits should be permitted to wander off into the woods without adult guidance...It is always desirable for an adult to be with such Scouts. "However, after the Patrol Leaders have been properly trained for hike and camp leadership and the Scouts have learned to take care of themselves on several Troop hikes and camps....opportunities for them to go on their own outings under the leadership of a responsible Patrol Leader should be very definitely provided (HBSM, pages 212-213). Baden-Powell's 300 foot standard is a practical compromise for 21st century BSA Troops that want to incorporate BSA "Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol" into their Troop Leadership Training (TLT) course or monthly PLC meetings. It provides a more controlled-risk environment for Patrol Overnights under qualified Patrol Leaders on Troop monthly campouts (with adults 300 feet away). BrentAllen writes: Hey Kudu, is this still considered the best version of the SM Handbook ever written? Yes. Of course I do like some aspects of Baden-Powell's Patrol System better than the BSA Patrol Method, and the BSA's concise "Six Methods of Scouting" were not introduced until the fourth edition, but at 1,165 pages the BSA's third edition of Handbook for Scoutmasters is the most comprehensive Scoutmaster Handbook ever written. This is still the book to buy if you want to understand how the BSA expected Scoutmasters to train Patrol Leaders how to run what the BSA defined as a "Real Patrol" without adult supervision. You can find used copies for less than $10 per volume at AddAll. See: http://tinyurl.com/5sjvz3 IMPORTANT: To find the correct edition, look for "Volume 1" or "Volume 2" in the description, starting on "page 2" of the above URL! The later 1940s printings of the 3rd edition include the Patrol Leader Training course, "Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol": http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm Kudu(This message has been edited by kudu)

John-in-KC writes: Why not teach the youth that electing the wrong person has consequences? My guess is that 100% of this thread's readers have the same question, John! I wish I had the talent to invent a phrase that makes the "consequence" equation obvious. Until then, simply put, you can not teach youth that "electing the wrong person has consequences" unless you remove the element of "managed risk" so they don't face any REAL consequences. Before PORs were invented the BSA's definition of a "Real Patrol" was one that held Patrol Meetings separately from the Troop to plan Patrol Hikes separately from the Troop. Patrol Leaders used the hikes to sign off on advancement for the Patrol's younger members and to train for Patrol Overnights. These activities are still allowed by the Guide to Safe Scouting but we no longer train Patrol Leaders how to do it, not even for the controlled-risk environment of Troop campouts on BSA property. So far as I can tell, all leadership experts use the "Troop Method" because Baden-Powell's standard of 300 feet between Patrols (or even 50 feet) can not be accomplished with manager skills. John-in-KC writes: The Grand Game was designed to be a laboratory for adult life. I agree. If by "Grand Game" you mean the indoor television game show. "21st century" Patrols are indeed little laboratories. That is why we no longer use the BSA's definition of a "Real Patrol." Manager skills do not teach a Patrol Leader how to run a "Real Patrol," but they will indeed be useful in their adult life. Just like any business administration course. John-in-KC writes: Let them fail by making a sub-par choice. The youth will learn from it. This is why these threads are so popular with trained leaders. Everybody gets to make adult noises that convey deep wisdom about "Leadership Accountability" so long as everyone agrees that the "21st century" Patrol Method requires Patrols to camp close together. That way there is no real downside to making a "sub-par choice." John-in-KC writes: 40 years is a valid time period for someone to say "it's been around for generations." OK, point taken. My thought was a working "Real Patrol" is still in the living memory of some volunteers. For us the dumbing down of the Patrol Method to accommodate adult manager skills is still first generation stuff. What I object to in CalicoPenn's "the performance metrics for a POR ... they've worked for generations" is the implication that these "performance metrics" are rooted in the origins of Scouting rather than in its sharp decline. PORs were invented by the same people who invented the "urban emphasis" system of Skill Awards and Merit Badges to allow the urban demographic a path to Eagle Scout without a single camping trip. The idea is that you don't need to go camping to learn Character, Fitness, and Citizenship. Likewise, you do not need to camp in a "Real Patrol" to learn "leadership skills": "In general, Patrol Leader training should concentrate on leadership skills rather than on Scoutcraft skills. The Patrol will not rise and fall on the Patrol Leader's ability to cook, follow a map, or do first aid, but it very definitely depends on his leadership skill (Scoutmaster's Handbook [1972], page 155). For eight long years boys who had never been camping could learn these "leadership skills" and advance to Eagle Scout. That explains a lot. In a perfect world, CalicoPenn would write: "The BSA performance metrics for a POR - use them - they were designed for a generation of Eagle Scouts who never went camping" Kudu