Kudu

I'm talking about get-your-knees-dirty Outdoor Leadership: "This is how to take your Patrol on a hike without adults," then you take the Patrol Leaders on a Patrol hike. Or "this is how you take your Patrol camping without adults," then you take the Patrol Leaders on a Patrol Campout. Something along the lines of William Hillcourt's Patrol Leader Training Course, "Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol": http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm

BobWhite writes: He simply does not know what the current program actual says so he has no idea that he is actually following it for the most part. Another example of a personal attack. I Staff my share of BSA training courses. It is easy to TALK about the outdoors, but the best test of whether training is really "Outdoor Leadership" is just how dirty the instructor's knees get. And if he or she is talking about "requirements," then you are in an advancement checklist course not an Outdoor Leadership course. Kudu

John-in-KC writes: Mr Kudu has a near-fetish against the Leadership Development Method currently part of the Boy Scouting program. A term like "fetish" is a personal attack. The common technique here is to move a discussion away from Scouting theory by characterizing my position as a psychological disability rather than the traditional view of what is best for Patrol Leaders and self-sufficient outdoor Patrols. The implication is that "Boy Leadership" as a product of mental formulas rather than outdoor skills is so inherently superior that any "normal" person would recognize that the correct place for outdoor skills is not in Patrol Leader Training or Wood Badge ("Outdoor Leadership") but as isolated lists of things to be checked off in the Advancement Method. The establishment of IOLS in 2000 was the ultimate victory of this isolation begun with the creation of the Leadership Development Method in 1972: "In general, Patrol Leader training should concentrate on leadership skills rather than on Scoutcraft Skills. The Patrol will not rise and fall on the Patrol Leader's ability to cook, follow a map, or do first aid, but it very definitely depends on his leadership skill" (Scoutmaster's Handbook [1972], page 155). Kudu

jimster writes: Now, the adult leadership is all on the same page that we want boy led, but our boys have not had prior boy leaders model the roles for them and do not have a clue what they should be doing. As I type this, the upper right-hand corner of my Scouter.Com screen reports "You are 1 of 1493 Active Users." The simple truth is that each and every one of those 1,493 active users have their own idea of what "boy-led" means. So even if they use similar words, it is hard to get to where you are going by following other people's theory. The easiest way to get to boy-led is to skip all of the indoor theory and try Baden-Powell's outdoor advice just once in your life: Physically separate those Patrols on a campout and everything else will follow as a purely practical matter. B-P recommended 300 feet between Patrols, but try one-tenth of that (30 feet) if you like. When the Patrols are separated the adults will have to make a physical effort to take over leading each Patrol, so adult-led will be far more obvious to everyone (assuming good faith). When the Patrols are separated everyone discovers quickly that the winners of popularity contests between boys (or wearing the Uniform correctly or some other sign of obedience to adults), are not usually the best Patrol Leaders outdoors when the Patrols are separated. BSA purists will howl that Baden-Powell has absolutely nothing to do with "modern" Scouting, but if you try Traditional Scouting only once as an experiment (rather than say an indoor "lock-in campout" or a promotional outing where the Council pitches tents on a commercial baseball diamond) what do you have to loose? Kudu

If you look carefully at the 1972 handbook, you will see that ALL requirements that involve camping were made optional. In other words you could advance from Tenderfoot all the way to Eagle without ever once going camping. It was in this context that the "Leadership Development Method" and its unholy spawn "Junior Leader Training" were invented: In general, Patrol Leader training should concentrate on leadership skills rather than on Scoutcraft Skills. The Patrol will not rise and fall on the Patrol Leader's ability to cook, follow a map, or do first aid, but it very definitely depends on his leadership skill (1972 Scoutmaster's Handbook, page 155). Kudu

No method in which an adult evaluates a Scout's Spirit is as efficient a learning experience as making a game out of a Scout's reflection on his own behavior. The "Scout Spirit Scavenger Hunt" is a tool that helps a Scout collect examples of each of the Scout Laws as brought to life in his own actions: http://inquiry.net/ideals/spirit/index.htm Kudu

Everyone walk alone for 2 kilometers in the woods with a blindfold? Sounds too dangerous! Here is a collection of games and activities to play in the scary dark woods at night: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/night/index.htm

Check out The Inquiry Net's campfire section: A traditional approach to campfire programs: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/campfire/helps/index.htm Kudu

shortridge, My experience is similar to that of Jblake47 and BrentAllen: Patrol Cooking at summer camp was an eye-opening experience for our Scouts. Once they had been so totally immersed in the Patrol Method, they never wanted to go back to the crowded dinning halls, with the long lines, rude hat-checks, and stupid songs Part of the attraction is that food cooked on the Patrol level by (or with the help of) a competent Patrol Cook tastes much better than mass-quantity food, and can even be "made to order" according to individual tastes. It really does not take that long to cook, once they get the hang of it (in a way that is not possible on weekends). Delivering school cafeteria food to the campsites in "heater stacks" would be a step backward. Kudu

allangr1024 writes: Our camp has a central dining hall, and everyone eats there. How does it work any other way? Allangr, Some camps offer "Patrol Cooking," which at one time was the fundamental method upon which all Scouting was based: the Patrol Method. Increasing, as Scouting is perceived to serve the "Trail to Eagle," Boy Scout summer camps have replaced the Patrol Method with a summer school model complete with school cafeteria food. Any Patrol can blunder though the "Patrol Method" for a weekend, but seeking out and attending a "Patrol Cooking" summer camp is an eye-opening test of true leadership. GernBlansten writes: Seems the entire camp experience is built around preparing for meals and cleanup with merit badge sessions to fill the gaps. That has not been my experience: some of our Scouts earned five Merit Badges in a week. Would you be willing to report what you perceive to be the bottle necks in the camps that you attend? 1) In mixed-format camps sometimes the recipes for the dinning hall are not selected with preparation time in mind. Good Patrol Cooks can use the same raw ingredients to create different meals in the campsite. 2) Mixed-aged Patrols (with the Patrols' best leaders in the Patrol Leader positions) works best for us. 3) Early bedtime and early-rising can easily over-come the morning time-crunch problem, with the most efficient Patrols rewarded with extra sleeping time in the morning. 4) However: In summer camps that offer only Patrol Cooking, it pays to send an adult to accompany Scouts to their first Merit Badge "class" to make sure that the Counselor does not make everyone sit around waiting for Scouts from Troops that have not yet mastered the Patrol Method. This can be nipped in the bud at the daily Scoutmaster-Camp Director meeting. 5) Flexible Thinking: One year I recruited a whole Patrol of new Scouts just before summer camp. Cooking was not a problem for this same-aged Patrol, but morning cleanup was. Our unorthodox solution? The Patrol cooked for the adults and in return we simply washed the morning dishes for them. Likewise if a Scout is signed up for at least three Merit Badges but does not want to take a morning "class," I see nothing wrong with letting him handle morning clean-up for his Patrol, if that is what he wants to do. jblake47 writes: The records we got are incomplete, inaccurate and simply unusable. I'm having to retest the boys on every single requirement to see if they did their work and/or taking their word for doing it. Compressing the Tenderfoot - First Class skills into one week of summer camp is questionable Scouting. When I was Scoutmaster, I encouraged new Scouts to take the Swimming and Canoeing Merit Badges (so that they could attend our Canoe trip in the fall), and spend the rest of their time fishing, catching frogs, or working on requirements in camp if they wanted. This later activity can get very competitive! However, my new Troop uses the "first year" option, and the Scoutmaster put me in charge of that. The basic idea of a first year program is that it covers the skills, but it is up to the Troop to sign the Scouts off according to the Troop's standards. This camp's program covered most of the Tenderfoot through First Class requirements, plus First Aid and Swimming Merit Badges and even a couple of easy badges like Fingerprinting. I attended the classes with the first-year Scouts, and then in the afternoon and evenings I set up a couple of chairs at the pond. I tested every Scout individually as the rest of them fished or otherwise amused themselves in the general area. It really is not that hard. If you watch them apply CPR or build something with lashes during the day, it is easy to tell with a couple of questions or a piece of rope how much they retained. BrentAllen writes: We were the only Troop not eating in the Dining Hall. I recently moved to the south and this summer we attended Camp Thunder in the Great State of Georgia. I have a new-found respect for BrentAllen's commitment to the Patrol Method over the lure of air-conditioned dinning halls! Kudu

t4eagle137 writes: We have plans to visit local schools with the District Executive There is no thrill in Scouting that compares to the exhilaration of standing in front of an auditorium of skeptical sixth-graders (with the most vocal of the early arrivals openly mocking your BSA Uniform), and in just 20 minutes convince two-thirds of the audience to sign a list in front of their peers saying that yes, they want to join your Troop! I would be happy to answer any questions anyone may have after checking out my outdoor adventure presentation at the following URL: http://inquiry.net/adult/recruiting.htm Kudu

For all of his faults, James West deserves more credit for bringing the Patrol Method back to the United States. It was West who in 1923 introduced the Patrol Method in a booklet (and appendix to subsequent printings of the 2nd Edition of the Handbook for Scoutmasters). Three years later, it was West who recognized William Hillcourt's expertise in the European "Patrol System," hired him, and backed his implementation of the BSA's "Patrol Method" with the full force of West's office. Kahuna writes: It's funny, given that Scouting in the U.S. as well as Britain was in part started by boys forming patrols on their own, that the boy leadership principle was so late in coming along. But what could they do? The new Scouting monopoly imposed the new all-American "Six Principles of Boy Work" (including "Grouping Standards") on its members and hyped it as "scientifically correct" and the "doubtless standard of all groupings in the future." Traditionalists see a similar pattern today where the Patrol Method is undercut by imposing modern "Leadership Development" theories on it. The BSA's monopoly on Scouting insures that leadership theory fed by six month election cycles and "Position of Responsibility" requirements is the "fifty-six and a half inches in height" standard of our own day. Under James West this destruction of the Patrol Method by popular "scientific" theories had been reversed with an innovative new model called the "Six Methods of Scouting" introduced in William Hillcourt's 4th Edition of the Handbook for Scoutmasters. The first Method of Scouting was pure Baden-Powell: "The Scout Way: A Game NOT a Science." The five other Methods were the Patrol Method (under which Leadership significantly was only a subset); Men in Scouting; Activities (under which Advancement --equally significantly-- was only a subset); Uniform; and Ideals & Service. The First Method of Scouting lasted until after the retirement of West and Hillcourt, when "A Game NOT a Science" was cancelled in 1972 to make way for a new scientific theory of Scouting called Leadership Development. Green Bar Bill's "Patrol Leader Training" course was destroyed to make room for Leadership Development's new "Junior Leader Training" which told Patrol Leaders that "as a patrol or troop leader you're going to learn what [leadership skills] are in a more scientific manner" (emphasis added). Likewise, the newly elevated "Advancement Method" of 1972 would eventually destroy the Patrol Method in summer camp as modern school class schedules and school cafeteria central dining rooms became the norm under the new "Seven Methods of Scouting" which claimed that the "Seven Methods" were all of "equal importance." See: http://inquiry.net/adult/methods/index.htm emb021 writes: What a boooring work. Dull, dull, dull. Perhaps the first Handbook for Scout Masters is significantly more interesting to those of us who see the history of Scouting as repeating itself rather than progressing in a straight line Also of interest in the first Handbook for Scout Masters are the origins of BSA Advancement which (like the Six Principles of Boy Work) had aspects that were the exact opposite of Baden-Powell's central principles of Scouting: It was based on adult power over the Patrol Leaders, and on book-learning over the "citizenship-training as a game" form of English Scouting. See for instance the central written exams approach to Advancement (Scoutmasters were not even trusted to test their own Scouts--which should have been the PL's job): http://inquiry.net/adult/methods/1st/064-Scout_Exams.htm The underling Scouting-as-school theory was never corrected and would later become institutionalized as the "Adult Association" Method of Scouting (Scoutmaster Conferences, Boards of Review, and Scout Spirit requirements), and the boooring, dull, dull, dull (and therefore required!) book learning Merit Badges such as Environmental Science and the three Citizenship badges. Kudu

If Robinson had not been able to turn Boyce's fledgling group into a rigid monopoly on Scouting in the United States, would any of the five rival national Scouting movements been based on Baden-Powell's Patrol System? Kahuna writes: I would say that it was more West who turned it into a rigid monopoly, West would later become the BSA's attack dog, but the monopoly was already on the YMCA's agenda for the May 3rd 1910 meeting between Edgar M. Robinson (Senior Secretary of the YMCA's "Committee on Boys' Work"), J. A. Van Dis (Boy's Work Secretary of the State YMCA of Michigan), and William D. Boyce: "They explained to him the Scouting situation, as it then existed; that various groups and individuals in different parts of the country were aspiring to national leadership, and that some of these were more desirable than others. They also explained to him the desirability of trying to form one strong independent National Movement...." (Murray, page 25-26). Kahuna writes: I'm curious as to Kudu's statement about the patrol method. The very first Boy Scout Handbook (1911) talks about troops being divided into patrols. The devil is in the details, and these details were outlined in the first Handbook for Scout Masters: It was the Scout Master's job to "divide the Troop into Patrols" using BSA "Grouping Standards:" "The height and weight standard is more scientifically correct than the age standard, although it has not been tested out enough to warrant any authoritative declaration in its favor. "If this method is used for grouping, the standards for athletic competition among the boys might be used, that is, all the boys of ninety pounds and under might be put together, the same being true for those under one hundred and ten, one hundred and twenty-five, and one hundred and forty pounds. "If height is used, boys of fifty-six and a half inches in height and classifying under ninety pounds in weight, might be grouped together. Also boys of sixty-three inches in height and coming within the one hundred and ten pound weight. "This standard will doubtless become the real basis of all groupings in the future...." Presumably the Bob Whites of the BSA's first decade carried tape-measures to make sure that no Scout in the "fifty-six and a half inches in height" Patrol violated BSA policy with an unauthorized growth spurt The "Scout Master" could also divide the boys with other official "Grouping Standards," including the "School Boy or Wage-Earning Boy Standard" (Baden-Powell had carefully chosen the boys in his Brownsea Island experiment to overcome precisely this division of Scouts by social class). However, Baden-Powell's Patrol System, in which the Scouts form their own Patrols of friends and neighbors, was not an option in the new American Scouting monopoly. See: http://kudu.net/adult/methods/1st/group_standard.htm The "Eight Methods of Scouting" theory of the day was called the "Six Principles of Boy-Work," and it required the Scout Master to distrust the judgment of the Patrol Leader and to control the activities of the Patrols himself. Significantly, when the Scout Master delegated decisions, the BSA instructed him to delegate to the entire group rather than to the Patrol Leaders: "The Patrol Leader and the Scout Master "Care should be taken by the Scout Master that the patrol leaders do not have too great authority in the supervision of their patrols. The success of the troop affairs and supervision of patrol progress is, in the last analysis, the responsibility of the Scout Master and not that of the patrol leader. There is also a danger, in magnifying the patrol leader in this way, of inordinately swelling the ordinary boy's head. The activities of the patrol should not be left to the judgment of any patrol leader, and if the Scout Master wants to delegate the work of the patrol and troop, the whole group should reach a decision in regard to the plan" (page 85, emphasis added). See: http://inquiry.net/adult/methods/1st/ Kudu

According to Tim Jeal's chapter on the publishing business aspect of Boy Scouting and its initial control of Scouting in England, Arthur Pearson (B-P's publisher) was described by Joseph Chamberlain as "the greatest hustler I have ever known." The connection to newspapers was that Boy Scouting sold periodicals. The irony of Hearst's militaristic "American Boy Scout" organization was that it was affiliated with Sir Frances Vane's "Order of World Scouts" (which predated WOSM by 11 years). Vane's "British Boy Scouts" had broken away from Baden-Powell's association in part because B-P's brand of centrally controlled Scouting was perceived as too closely involved with military organizations. According to the BSA's own version of history, "Soon after the publication of Scouting for Boys, Boy Scout Troops began to spring up all over the United States. Local churches, military schools, and other youth organizations such as the YMCA often sponsored them. Some of these sponsoring organizations had further aspirations of forming national Scouting movements, and by 1910 these included the publisher William R. Hearst's "American Boy Scout" (later the "United States Boy Scout"); the National Highway Protection Association's "Boy Scouts of the United States;" "The Peace Scouts of California;" the "National Scouts of America," formed by a military school in Manlius, NY; and "The YMCA Scouts" (Murray, William; The History of the Boy Scouts of America; page 28; Boy Scouts of America; New York; 1937). To me the great unknown in the history of Scouting is if Robinson had not been able to turn Boyce's fledgling group into a rigid monopoly on Scouting in the United States, would any of the five rival national Scouting movements been based on Baden-Powell's Patrol System? The "Patrol Method" was not introduced to the BSA until September 21, 1923. Kudu

Did you check The Inquiry Net? An article on "Totem Paper Knives" by Robert De Groat appears at: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/native/totem/paper_knives.htm General tools and techniques: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/native/totem/index.htm Kudu

Beavah writes; Yah, this thread is a funny one, eh? ...it is fun to read with a beer and popcorn. I hope that is Trail's End popcorn, Beavah. Beavah writes; I think Kudu gets way too caught up on the whole 300 feet bit, too. But the real story lies in the frenzy to reject Baden-Powell's standard of 300 feet, doesn't it? If the particular number "300" is the problem, then why not argue that 200, 100, or 50 is far enough, especially since 200-300 feet is the distance still used at some Wood Badge courses? Why not experiment with "Baden-Powell Patrol Camping" just once, as one might attend a "Brownsea" reenactment? I suspect that the idea of Patrols 300 feet apart is as terrifying as sky-diving! The emotional pitch of this near-universal condemnation (it is not just Bob White) indicates to me that people are hiding something that they know they can't mention in a Scouting forum: Probably the realization that close adult supervision is required with six month election cycles and business manager training that doesn't really work with children outdoors. In some cases it is also the secret desire to continue "camping" in neatly mowed campgrounds with flush toilets, warm showers, and electricity. Simply put, most Troop events, from challenging high-adventure activities to lock-downs at the local elementary school, do not require real Patrol Leaders. Bob White writes: The fact that some tropp leaders do not use the patrol method or do not use it to its fll potential has to do with leader selection not Wood Badghe. Leader selection? Committee Members might be more qualified to recognize outdoor leadership skills in potential adult leaders if outdoor leadership skills were still an essential part of Wood Badge. In many Troops, the pool of potential adult volunteers is not very deep. The answer is to provide practical training that can be used just in case Patrol camping (on some level--if only on monthly campouts), is ever attempted. Bob White writes: It only takes about three minutes to explain what the Patrol Method is. It takes most the day to get adults to understand... What Kudu does not realize is that the patrol method is an element of scouting that needs to be taught more to adults then to youth. For Youth the Patrol method is natural. Not true. If we look at the third edition of the BSA Handbook for Scoutmasters published back when the BSA actually taught the Patrol Method in detail, the adult explanation of the Patrol Method was 65 pages long. But the BSA Handbook for Patrol Leaders was 568 pages long, almost ten times the adult treatment at the time, and 189 times the three page adult treatment of the Patrol Method in the current Scoutmaster Handbook! To send Patrols out camping by themselves based on boys' "natural" understanding, or on the current BSA literature or training is irresponsible. A good place to start is by allowing your most mature Patrols camp at some distance during Patrol Campouts. Whether it is Baden-Powell's 300 foot standard, or a smaller more "modern" distance of 200 or 100 feet, physically separating the Patrols is the quickest "reality check" on whether your Patrols are actually boy-led, or depend on hovering adults to "mentor" them. Bob White writes: Kudu's experience with BSA training is the same as his experience with the Scouting of B-P's days, he has only read about them, he wasn't there. He never lived the scouting of B-Ps day and he has never learned how to lead BSA training or taught the BSA training. For anyone who missed it, Bob White's poison (as well as "He would rather complain than learn the truth," and "His attitude exceeds his aptitude") is an example of an ad hominem attack. Ad hominem is used when you are desperate to draw attention away from own position because someone asks simple questions that you can not answer. Bob White's personal attacks are unScoutlike, and untrue. I Staffed the local BSA SM & ASM Specific training course (including the Patrol Method session), as recently as June 7th, 2008. Except for one fake Baden-Powell quote, the Patrol Method is NOT EVEN MENTIONED in the Patrol Method session (see the "Teaching Objectives," above). As far as the Scouting of B-P's days goes, what is the point? What is so difficult to understand about spacing Patrols 300 feet apart? If you are afraid to allow Patrols to camp without adult supervision, then try B-P's method of Troop camping instead (or 200 or 100 or 50 feet) and if it does not work report back to us FROM YOUR OWN EXPERENCE as to why a 100 year-old idea is no longer valid. Bob White writes: You would think Kudu would be happy to hear that the BSA is still a teacher and proponent of the foundations of Scouting that B-P designed, but he is not. The BSA may still grant permission to do so in the Guide to Safe Scouting and other literature, but BSA training no longer explains HOW to do it. If you are offering practical Patrol Method advice at Scoutmaster-specific training like "Why can't a dad and a ASM go with a patrol camping for the weekend, then on another patrol outing they can camp nearby, then on another they can spend the day but not the night," then you are not following the official BSA program, are you Bob White? Kudu

jblake47 writes: Because of this constant patrol emphasis in the unit, the necessity of 300' between patrols doesn't really matter. I can put them separated but rather close and there is very little if any interaction between members of the patrols. When there was (last summer at camp) a twine fence was put up and the patrols enforced camp protocol in their patrol areas. Stosh, Have you taken this to the next level, what Beavah described in the initial post as the point where the Patrols regularly hike and camp as independent, essentially adult-free, small groups? If not, then how do you plan to make that transition? Kudu

Lisabob writes: I hope some of you will include in your discussion, tips for how to wean experienced adults away. That is the purpose of the Patrol Contest, above. Patrols gradually camp a little further from the adults in the context of the Troop's familiar camping format. The distance between each Patrol and the nearest adult is based on specific skills. If for some reason the experiment fails at 50 feet then everyone learns something about the Patrol Method. No harm, no foul. Between 1936 and 1972 every Handbook for Scoutmasters included a step by step course called "Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol" in which the Scoutmaster trained a Patrol of Patrol Leaders how to lead adult-free Patrol Hikes and Patrol Campouts. This is one possible source for the specific skills that should be rewarded with contest distance points. See: http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm Kudu

Consider ongoing Patrol Contests with points given for mastery of the skills the adult leaders consider necessary to camp as independent, essentially adult-free small groups. At least some of these skills should be based on the ability and desire to plan and carry out Patrol Hikes (at monthly campouts if necessary). The accumulated points are converted to the number of feet each Patrol is allowed to camp from the nearest adult at the next Troop campout. Run a simultaneous contest between all of the adults and Scouts associated with the Troop to determine who can find the most camping venues that allow spread-out camping. Kudu

Bob White writes: Now you tell me your understanding of the Patrol method and please include why it is distance related? To understand the Patrol Method we must first define "Patrol." I like the BSA's definitions of a "Real Patrol" and a "Camping Patrol" as they appeared in the traditional Handbook for Patrol Leaders: 1) As soon as you are able you will want to take your boys on Patrol Hikes. You want your Patrol to be a real one, and only a hiking Patrol is a real Patrol 2) One of your greatest services as a Patrol Leader is to try to make your Patrol into a Camping Patrol trained in the ways of the experienced campers. This takes time. It takes also patience and perseverance. But it can be done, and you are well under way toward doing it, the day you have made your boys into real hikers as described in the previous chapter. So the BSA's definition of a "Real Patrol" is a group of about eight Scouts that hikes (and ideally camps) without adult supervision. Therefore the BSA defines a Real Patrol ONLY in terms of distance ("Real Hikers"). Given the BSA's definition of a "Real Patrol" and a "Camping Patrol" I would be in general agreement with your definition of the Patrol Method, with a few refinements: The Patrol Method is [an element of Citizenship training unique to] Scouting where groups of 8 to 10 [scouts] under the leadership of a [Patrol Leader encouraged to continue in that role as long as he is the most competent outdoor leader in the Patrol], act as an independent team in everything they do. When Patrols gather they form a Troop under a [senior Patrol Leader selected by the Patrol Leaders in consultation with the Scoutmaster] whose job is to coordinate the efforts of the Patrols for the benefit of all through the decisions of a Council of Patrol Leaders. Bob White writes: Here is where I think trained Scout leaders get frenzied around you. They can teach scouts how to lead a patrol or a troop at ANY distance, But they don't, do they Bob White? How often does a "trained Scout leader" jump in to say that he used his Wood Badge skills to train Patrols how to hike and camp at ANY distance without adult supervision? Trained Scout leaders get "frenzied" with me because it would be foolhardy and dangerous to allow Patrol Leaders replaced every six months in POR elections and trained only with BSA Leadership Development techniques to camp 300 feet from the nearest adult. So rather than admit that the 1972 invention of "Leadership Development" was a mistake, they rationalize its limitations by asserting that "Real Patrols" are "old fashioned," or they move the discussion from Scouting theory to personality with assertions like "I don't know what drugs you are taking," or "That's just nuts!" Bob White writes: where as you need at least 300 hundred feet. No, I never said what I need. 300 feet is Baden-Powell's standard. 200, 100, or even 50 feet with young Patrols is OK with me. Bob White writes: When I cook in my yard and my neighbor is just 150 feet away cooking I have no trouble being totally independent of him, Um, what happened to your previous eight foot example, Bob White? I would not want to hang out eight feet from where my neighbor is cooking, especialy if he was likely to step in to "mentor" me if my posse was not behaving in a Scout-like fashion. If you really think that most people do not act differently at 150 feet from a supervisor than they do at eight feet, then we have found why Baden-Powell's 300 foot standard mystifies you so much, Bob White Bob White writes: why would a patrol be different? Some say that character is what you do when no-one is looking. I say that Patrol Leadership is what a Patrol does when no adult is looking. Bob White writes: I am not sure that you even have a clear understanding of what the patrol method is. So let's compare. Bob White, I'm not sure that the BSA "Leadership Development" trainers have a clear understanding of the Patrol Method is. So let's compare our own two definitions to the BSA's four Patrol Method Teaching Objectives on page 53 of the SM & ASM Specific training outline: "Show how to establish an environment that is safe..." "Explain that listening well is the first step in using appropriate leadership styles." "Show how positive reinforcement is among the most valuable contributions..." "Employ various supportive leadership styles...directing, coaching, supporting, and delegating." That sounds like indoor Leadership Development theory to me, nothing that hints at how to delegate to Patrol Leaders the responsibility of cooking 150 feet from Bob White's neighbor. Kudu

SR540Beaver writes: Just for fun, lets pretend that the BSA came to you and admitted that their training program stunk and they wanted you to revamp it. What would you do? Just for fun, SR540Beaver? OK, first I would praise them for admitting they have a problem. That is the first step in recovery To recover the Patrol Method, we must first admit our addiction to business manager theory. The problem begins in SM & ASM Specific training, where the "Patrol Method" (the basic Method of Scouting) is limited to a 25 minute session in which leadership is mentioned 50 times (once every 30 seconds) but the "Patrol Method" is only mentioned once, in a fake Baden-Powell quote. This prepares the participants to falsely use the term "Patrol Method" when they are really talking about indoor business management theories. The "Matching Leadership Styles to the Needs of Scouts, Patrols, and Troops" section is worth mentioning since it is the meat (or tofu) of the Patrol Method session (note that the term "Patrol" is NEVER used alone in the entire session unless it refers to an adult-led situation): A Scoutmaster can fill that need through directing--that is, giving clear guidelines. Telling Scouts, "Have the members of your patrol use buckets of water to put out the campfire, and then we can remove any traces that it was here," is one example of directing. This was obviously written by some clueless business manager, otherwise he or she would have mentioned a Patrol Leader at least once in the entire Patrol Method session. For instance, the above adult-led situation might have read "A Scoutmaster can direct the SPL to tell the Patrol Leader to use buckets of water." The most glaring error is that the Delegating "Leadership Style" should have been clearly identified as the actual real Patrol Method. However if you read the description carefully (page 59) you will note that the term "Patrol" is never used, Delegating refers only to Troop Method events. Kudu (This message has been edited by Kudu)

Bob White writes: Again with distance? What makes 300 ft better than 275 or 150 or 8? That is a very good question. Why is it that "Leadership Development" experts NEVER talk about distance? Why do discussions about the pros and cons of 8 feet versus 30, 150, or 275 feet between Patrols provoke personal attacks? My guess is that if they separate them at all, the overwhelming majority of Troops in the United States camp their Patrols at about eight feet apart. Part of this may be due to the practicalities of campgrounds with flush toilets, warm showers, and electricity. But the real reason for keeping Patrols so close together is that any business management theory will work if the Patrols are only eight feet apart. The adults are always within earshot and can step in to "mentor" the junior managers when "Leadership Development" theories don't work. 300 feet was Baden-Powell's standard of how far apart Patrols should camp. Baden-Powell's image appears on so many Wood Badge souvenirs: Wood Badge patches, Wood Badge hat pins, Wood Badge stave medallions, and Wood Badge neckerchiefs. But any mention of Baden-Powell's Patrol System standard sends holders of the Wood Badge into a frenzy of rage. Why is that? Obviously they are hiding something: They dare not face the sting of personal attacks that will result if they admit that abstract indoor theory is a poor substitute for a Patrol Leader Training based on the traditional outdoor leadership skills, see: http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm evmori writes: And some of the questions posed are never answered! What questions haven't I answered? Kudu

No, Bob White, I asked you to quote directly any material that directly teaches Patrol Leaders how to take their Patrols on Patrol Hikes and Patrol Campouts without adult supervision. The pre-1972 Handbook for Patrol Leaders devotes 189 pages of specific step by step instruction about the risks involved and exactly how to do it. That is much different from the teaser on page 28 of the current PL handbook. Likewise Patrol Leader Training was a pre-1972 six month course in which the Scoutmaster formed a Patrol of Patrol Leaders (called the "Green Bar Patrol") and taught them specifically how to take their Patrols on Patrol Hikes and Patrol Campouts. Your idea that "The scout learns the details of these skills and characteristics through the coaching and mentoring given by adult leaders" refers to no BSA training material on how to "mentor" your Scouts to camp without adult supervision. That is why hardly any such "mentoring" ever takes place. It is irresponsible, and a glaring failure of our training. Bob White writes: We call that the Leadership Development Method by the way. My point exactly. Leadership Development talks about hazy general ideas, but it provides absolutely no specific course material on how to teach a Patrol Leader how to take his Patrol on Patrol Hikes and Patrol Campouts without adult supervision. That is why so few Scouter.Com readers have ever actually done that. My guess is that at most one out of every thousand have ever even allowed a Patrol to camp 300 feet from the nearest adult on a Troop Campout. We call that training failure the "Leadership Development Method," by the way. Bob White writes: I urge you to contact National Forests, as well as State and County Parks in your area and ask if youth groups without adult supervision can camp there. I have, and there is no National Forest restriction on Patrols camping 300 feet from the nearest adult, as long as they are at least 300 feet from the nearest trailhead. We never had any problems backpacking in the Adirondack State Park as teenagers. We never camp in "County Parks" so I have no idea what goes on in the tourist world of warm showers and flush toilets. You should get out more often, Bob White OK, I have run out of time. I will catch up with this thread in July. Kudu

Bob White writes: You do not like today's program even though you are doing it, you just dont realize that we still teach it. OK, quote from the current Patrol Leader Training Course that teaches Patrol Leaders exactly how to hold a Patrol Meeting to plan a Patrol Hike or a Patrol Overnight without adults. I'd also like to see a quote from a National Forest that prohibits Patrols from camping 300 feet from the nearest adult. Kudu

I had some extra time, so I posted a reply to the parent thread "Leadership Development" http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=196748&p=5