Kudu

Gold Winger, We have three Council Camps. All of the Rangers have dogs and plenty of suggestions as to which areas of the camp offer the best Patrol camping. Maybe he thought you were a cat person. Kudu

Gold Winger, did you take the time to talk to the Ranger and pet his dog?

Patrol Emblems started out as Native American "Band" Totems in Ernest Seton's "Woodcraft Indians," the youth group from which Baden-Powell took some of his first ideas for Scouting in 1906. See: http://inquiry.net/traditional/seton/birch/organization/totems.htm The entire handbook can be found at: http://inquiry.net/traditional/seton/birch/index.htm B-P's Patrols were all named after specific animals, and the graphic image appeared on the Patrol Flag, not on the Uniform. Each Patrol animal was represented by a specific color-coded knot worn on the left shoulder of the Uniform. See: http://inquiry.net/images/placement.gif http://inquiry.net/images/B-P_Uni_Badges2.jpg When the BSA finally emerged as the most powerful Scouting association in the USA, Ernest Seton became one of its founders and new versions of his totems were introduced as Patrol patches, but not as Indian-specific as in his Woodcraft Indians association. B-P's first description of Patrol Calls can be found at: http://inquiry.net/images/sfb-patrol_flag.jpg A Patrol Call is an imitation of the Patrol's animal, but a Patrol Yell is a cheer. Some early Scout Yells and Patrol Yells from around the world can be found at: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/campfire/helps/yells.htm Kudu

MarkS writes: Is being 300 feet apart as important as having the patrols function separate from one another? All I know is that having separate resources sure made a difference. Mark, 300 feet is the next step, and you will find the difference just as remarkable! If you only have two Patrols it should be easy enough to find an opportunity to try it out as an experimental adventure. Eamonn writes: I kinda think if BP were around today he might have to have a rethink. I think he would marvel at how easy it is now in the States, given the availability of light-weight equipment and the enormous amount of suitable space in any BSA Boy Scout camp in which I have ever camped. He would point out that if you purchase such equipment to use for both car camping and backpacking, you can easily "backpack" it 300 feet away in a Scout camp or National Forest. True, heavy wooden Patrol Boxes were designed to be transported to remote Patrol Sites with trek-carts, but tough, large $7 Rubbermaid plastic boxes can be carried 300 feet by Scouts in any car-camping Troop. Perhaps National Forests are different from National Parks. In the Allegheny National Forest you can camp almost anywhere as long as you observe the "Camping Permitted -- 300 feet behind this sign" postings at all trailhead parking areas and paid campgrounds. It is also possible to pay for one $10 standard camping site with a hand water pump and vault toilets, and then set up free Patrol sites 300 feet beyond the posted sign to that effect. We sometimes used the Minister Creek Campground, but other locations in the region had more available flat areas, see: http://www.inquiry.net/625/outdoor/camping/locations/minister.htm The only "commercial" campground that we ever camped in was Letchworth State Park, but they had an area for Scouts and other large groups called "The Loop" with plenty of room to spread out in an unmowed field away from the road. When I took Wood Badge it was run by grizzly old men and no-nonsense women who taught us the real Patrol Method. Until this week I assumed that everyone who took the old course had the same experience of singing "Back to Gilwell" and "There Ain't No Flies on Us" around separate campfires at night in a Wood Badge Troop where the closest Patrol was about 1/8 mile away. We Beavers were all the way at the top of the hill, the Bobwhites below us and so on in order to the bottom of the hill 3/4 of a mile below us where the Bears conveniently camped only a few hundred yards from the parade field. Just as Horizon recounts in the Mega-Troops thread, an SPL or Staffer would have to hike at least a mile to make the rounds of all of the Patrol sites. Kudu

Did you consider Eengonyama? It is the only song any of the boys remembered singing at the very first Scout campfire on Brownsea Island in 1907. Eengonyama is both a song and a serious skit. It is very dramatic when performed around a campfire with Scout Staves. Here is Baden-Powell's description of the "safari" part: Then they recommence the Eengonyama chorus, and another Scout steps into the ring, and describes in dumb show how he stalked and lolled a wild buffalo. While he does the creeping up and stalking of the animal, the Scouts all crouch and sing their chorus very softly, and as he gets close to the beast, they simultaneously spring up and dance and shout the chorus loudly. When he has slain the beast, the leader again gives the "Be Prepared" chorus in his honor, which is repeated three times, the Scouts banging their staffs on the ground at the same time as they stamp "Bom! bom!" At the end of the third repetition, "Bom! bom!" is given twice. See: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/campfire/songs/war_songs.htm It is written for older Scouts, but could work for Cubs if some of the adults practiced first and participated. The page plays the Eengonyama tune when it is opened. We could use sound files of the "Be Prepared" chorus (The Scout's Rally) and the Scout's Call if any musician is willing to contribute them to "help other people at all times!" Send me a "Private Message" (one of the green hyperlinks on the left side of this screen) if you can help out. Kudu

So often we are so anti-megatroops that we forget that maybe if the boys are having fun the BSA/BP recommended sizes aren't the issue. The issue to B-P is that boys can have a specific form of "fun" he would call "Scouting:" An outdoor game in widely separated Patrols. It is interesting that Horizon writes that even in a "Mega-Troop" it is possible to practice Scouting in a manner that Baden-Powell would recognize as the Patrol System: - We had 8-10 patrols of 8-14 boys in each. We followed BP camping (300 feet), and with our size you could get as far away from the "men" as you wanted to. The Scoutmaster would hike at least a mile going from patrol site to patrol site during campouts! Horizon, would you give us more details here or in the "300 Feet Apart" thread as to how you could give actual BP camping such a priority in a Mega-Troop? Thanks! Kudu

Eamonn: Gilwell Park & Jamborees are not normal camping, are they? Likewise Wood Badge is not normal camping, it is training. Although when I took the course our Patrols were all at least 1/8 mile apart. What a different program we would have in this vast country of the United States if everyone who went to Wood Badge--if for only once in their life--had the opportunity to try the Patrol System out at night, without distracting from the important buisness of learning how to be a manager during the day, of course! Object of Camping The object of a camp is (a) to meet the boy's desire for the open-air life of the Scout, and (b) to put him completely in the hands of his Scoutmaster for a definite period for individual training in character and initiative and in physical and moral development. These objects are to a great extent lost if the camp be a big one. The only discipline that can there be earned out is the collective military form of discipline, which tends to destroy individuality and initiative instead of developing them; and, owing to there being too many boys for the ground, military drill has to a great extent to take the place of scouting practices and nature study. So it results that Scouts' camps should be small -- not more than one Troop camped together; and even then each Patrol should have its own separate tent at some distance (at least 100 yards) from the others. This latter is with a view to developing the responsibility of the Patrol Leader for his distinct unit. B-P's Outlook

Really? So camping close together in a tourist-style campground (like at a Camporee or BSA summer camp) is the norm for most people and not the exception? Is it actually a common experience to never once the entire time you or your Scouts are members of the BSA to follow Baden-Powell's rule to keep the Patrols separated by 300 feet, even as a experiment? How common is that? Kudu

Gold Winger writes: I don't think that we ever went to a campground where it would have been possible to put the patrols 300 feet apart. With six patrols, you'd need to have campsite about 400 x 500 feet. Really? What kind of campgrounds do you go to? If you have reasonably light-weight equipment, you can spread out in any east coast National Forest or Scout camp that I have ever gone to. If fact the High Peaks area of the Adirondacks limits Troops to Patrol-sized units that must camp at least a couple of miles apart at night. Our Patrol Leaders detested Camporees so the only place where we didn't have room was summer camp, and even there we could sometimes camp 300 feet apart in August or late-July when adjacent Troop campsites were unoccupied. Of course Baden-Powell's rule that Patrols always camp 100 yards apart was based on Troops having a maximum of 4 Patrols. Obviously if a Troop has more than four Patrols, a carport central dining fly, and a bunch of heavy Patrol equipment that they lug around in a Troop trailer, then they are going to camp in family campgrounds that make that degree of car camping practical. Kudu (This message has been edited by Kudu)

FScouter's two excellent posts show great insight into the subtleties of the Adult Association Method. Two lines especially merit printing on a T-shirt: In fact, if the SPL is sufficiently skilled in keeping a meeting on track, even the SM is superfluous. and Adults, stay out of the room! I learned that lesson late in life from my last SPL. Someone had mistakenly told him at NYLT that Scouters are not allowed in PLC meetings, so rather than get into a conflict with the adults over Troop traditions he simply scheduled his own private PLC meetings with the Patrol Leaders! Their first adult-free PLC did more in one session than years of me telling them that "You Scouts run the Troop!" Sure it was more clunky without me in the room, but whenever I brought to the SPL's attention some neglected detail they simply held an ad hoc five-minute meeting in the hall to fix it. My priorities (such as keeping the Patrols 300 feet apart) became requested favors. Kudu

Anyone who believes that 13-year-olds are not capable of "leadership" has probably never once in his life followed Baden-Powell's admonition that real Patrols never camp closer than 300 feet apart. Baden-Powell was aware that even the youngest Scouts are capable of real-world leadership if you give them real responsibility: I said to one of these boys on one occasion, when he came in through a rather heavy fire: "You will get hit one of these days riding about like that when shells are flying." And he replied: "I pedal so quick, sir, they'd never catch me." These boys didn't seem to mind the bullets one bit; they were always ready to carry out orders, though it meant risk to their life every time (Baden-Powell, "Camp Fire Yarn No.1: Mafeking Boy Scouts," Scouting For Boys). Watch "Master and Commander" and you will see why B-P positioned the above passage at the very beginning of the very first Scouting book for boys. Sample Scouting questions for using "Master and Commander" at your next leadership weekend can be found at the following URL with a source for locating used copies of the DVD for as little as $1.54 http://inquiry.net/patrol/training/movies.htm Kudu

tdfoxsr736 writes: Does anyone know the 1st Class Scout requirements from the 3rd ed. of Handbook for Boys (1927)? The third edition is significant in the history of Traditional Scouting because it was the last time that BSA First Class rose to the standard of Baden-Powell's real-world test of Tenderfoot through First Class Scoutcraft skills called the "First Class Journey" (requirement #5). Requirement #4 is also interesting because it contradicts the usual "advances in technology" justification for the dumbing-out of signalling. The "Manual Alphabet for the Deaf" is at least as useful to a Scout now as it was then; and if practical usefulness was the justification for signalling, then why the "Indian Sign Language Code" option? Here is a quick scan of the 32nd printing. Kudu (1) At least two months' service as a Second Class Scout and be able to identify the rank, length of service and position of leadership of Scouts and local Scouters by means of their Badges and Insignia. (2) Swim fifty yards. (Jump overboard, feet first into water slightly over his head, swim twenty-five yards, make a sharp turn about, and return to the starting point.) (3) Earn and deposit at least $2 in a public bank or other savings institution (premiums paid on life insurance, are accepted if earned), or plant, raise and market a farm crop or earn and contribute at least two dollars or the equivalent to the family budget or to welfare work in the community. (4) Send and receive a message by Semaphore Code, including conventional signs, thirty letters per minute, or by the General Service Code (International Morse) sixteen letters per minute, including conventional signs; or by the Indian Sign Language Code, thirty signs per minute; or the Manual Alphabet for the Deaf thirty letters per minute. (5) Make a round trip alone (or with another Scout) to a point at least seven miles away (fourteen miles in all), going on foot, or rowing a boat, and write a satisfactory account of the trip and things observed. (6) (a) Tell what First Aid is and what are its limitations. (b) Review Second Class First Aid requirements including demonstrations. © Show what to do for-(1) frost-bitten foot; (2) snake bite on hand; (3) mad dog bite; (4) heat exhaustion and sunstroke, describing difference in appearance. (d) Tell what to do for-(1) internal poisoning from food or drug; (2) freezing; (3) poisoning caused by poison ivy, poison sumac, or poison (e) Show how to-(1) use triangular bandage as sling, and as directed for four of the following injuries-head, eye, hand, chest, hip, knee, foot (in each case with dressing over wound); (2) apply splint to broken upper arm and place properly in cravat sling; (3) immobilize broken collar bone; (4) use neckerchief over shoe to support sprained ankle; (5) apply finger pressure (digital) to control arterial bleeding of wrist, ankle and temple; (6) apply tourniquet on upper arm and upper leg at correct pressure points, and (7) control venous bleeding below knee. (f) Explain necessity for immediate use of finger pressure control of bleeding; its advantages over tourniquet, and danger and necessary precautions in use of tourniquet. (g) Demonstrate with another person: (1) four-hand carry and (2) blanket or coat-litter carry; (3) a two-man carry with a chair; (4) with three other persons, method of lifting and transporting through a door and through a narrow passage a man who is unconscious the Scout himself acting as captain of the team; (5) Fireman's drag (h) Describe symptoms of various degree of shock, when to expect and how to deal with them. (7) Prepare and cook satisfactorily in the open, using camp cooking utensils, at least one of each of the following three classes of food, as be directed: (1) Eggs and bacon, hunter's stew, fish, fowl or game (2) pancakes, cornbread, biscuit or "twist" baked on a stick; (3) oatmeal or other hot cooked cereal. Give an exact statement of the amount and cost of materials used, and the number of persons intended to serve. (8) Read a map correctly, and draw from field notes made on the spot, an intelligible rough sketch map, indicating by their proper marks important buildings, roads, trolley lines, main landmarks, principal elevations, etc. Point out a compass direction without the help of the compass. (9) Use properly an axe for felling or trimming light timber; or produce an article of carpentry, cabinet-making, or metal work, made by himself; or demonstrate repair of a decaying or damaged tree. Explain method followed. (10) Judge distance, size, number, height and weight within 25 percent. (11) Be able to identify in the field (1a) 10 species of trees or plants, including Poison Ivy, noting such characteristic things as bark leaves, flowers, fruit, and scent; or (1b) 6 species of wild birds noting such characteristics as plumage, notes, tracks and habits; or (1c) 6 species of native wild animals, noting characteristic form, color, call, track and habits. (2) Be able to point out the North Star, and be able to name and point out at least 3 constellations of stars. (12) Furnish satisfactory evidence that he has put into practice in his daily life the principles of the Scout Oath and Law.

Most of the 60s happened in the 70s.

I've had a few successes with adult-free campouts but I don't push them. Most often they occur under the leadership of a gifted natural leader in a neighborhood dynamic between the Scouts and their parents. Scouts start out in their own backyards and usually include friends that are not Scouts, then gradually camp farther from their homes by hiking or biking to get to land owned by someone they know. The twelve-year-old Patrol Leader featured in the Winter 1998/1998 issue of Scouter.Com's old print publication Scouter Magazine had a "tribe" of around a dozen boys that camped regularly, less than half of whom were registered with our Troop. They hiked out on a public railroad right-of-way. The Eagle son of our District Commissioner (SPL of our Troop) would drive three or four Scouts and non-Scouts a couple of hundred miles away to the Adirondack High Peaks, just as I did when I was their age. It never occurred to us to ask our Scoutmaster for "permission" :-/ GernBlansten writes: You can lead a horse to water, but your job is to make it thirsty? Before 1972 it was the Scoutmaster's job to make them thirsty for adult-free campouts, yes. "Patrols are ready to go hiking and camping on their own just as soon as the Patrol Leader has been trained, and the Scouts have learned to take care of themselves....It should be your goal to get your Patrol Leaders qualified for hike and camp leadership at an early stage [Handbook for Scoutmasters, 4th & 5th editions, pages 118-119, emphasis added]." The basic method was to train the Patrol Leaders to lead their own hikes FIRST, then to get them to think of a Patrol Campout as an extended hike. The Patrol Leader's Handbook also stressed unsupervised campouts and hikes early on, instructing Patrol Leaders that their Patrol was not a "real" Patrol until they did so: "As soon as you are able you will want to take your boys on Patrol Hikes. You want your Patrol to be a real one, and only a hiking Patrol is a real Patrol [Chapter VII, emphasis added]." But remember that before 1972 the Scoutmaster responsible for conducting a six-month "Patrol Leader Training" course, not generic "Junior Leader Training" or the Ken Blanchard manager school stuff we have today! See: http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm Today the most practical method is to use Scout camps. Oldsm offers some really good advice in just a couple of sentences, as did Mike F, SR540Beaver, and ozemu (above, 11/17-20/2005). Most camps have plenty of extra room (if not whole unused Troop campsites) for Patrols to get some real distance between them, and that is what the Patrol Method is all about! Kudu

I think this person's parse of the Guide to Safe Scouting asserts that a Patrol is forbidden even to hike somewhere together without adult supervision. Any thoughts? Bob White, what say you? The discussion, I thought, was primarily in the context of camping out -- 300 feet and all that. If it is not, I agree that Scouts may conduct Patrol "activities" without two-deep adult supervision WHEN NO TRIP IS REQUIRED. I gave an example from my experience as a Scout. If the topic is camping or hiking, the language from the Guide to Safe Scouting must be read in pari materia with other B.S.A. publications: "Age-Appropriate Guidelines These criteria are designed to assist unit leaders in determining what activities are age-appropriate. Activities that do not appear on the chart should be reviewed using these criteria. . . . The unit or group receives training appropriate to the activity. In addition to the general criteria, the following program-specific criteria apply. Cub Scouting The activity is parent/youth- or family-oriented. The activity is conducted with adult supervision. Cub Scouts are asked to do their best. The activity is discovery-based. Boy Scouting Activities are led by youth and approved AND SUPERVISED BY ADULTS. Activities are patrol- or troop-oriented. Activities meet standards and advancement requirements. Activities are experience-based." [emphasis added] AND "All backcountry treks must be supervised by a mature, conscientious adult at least 21 years of age who understands the potential risks associated with the trek. This person knowingly accepts responsibility for the well-being and safety of the youth in his or her care. This adult supervisor is trained in and committed to compliance with the seven points of the BSA's Trek Safely procedure. One additional adult who is at least 18 years of age must also accompany the unit." AND Please follow this link to the tour permit required for any Boy Scout "trip" under 500 miles: http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34426.pdf -> Please note the requirement of adult supervision. -> Please note "hiking" as a mode of transportation covered by this permit. I read "supervision," in context, as requiring presence, especially when there is an emphasis on "two-deep" adult supervision. I would argue, taking all the publications together, that a Patrol campout that does not involve going anywhere -- no "trip" -- does not require a Tour Permit or adult supervision.

RememberSchiff, Note that the "Action Shirt" is an activity shirt, not a "Class A" shirt: http://tinyurl.com/2snvml Here is Jay L. Lenrow's account of the prototype new "Class A" Uniform shirt in case anyone missed it: Yesterday at the National Meetings in Irving, I had the opportunity to actually see the prototype of the new uniform. I can report that the colors have not changed. The shirt is still desert tan but it is made of a quick dry fabric. The epaulets have remained but the tabs for Boy Scouts will now be a muted green color. On the left sleeve, there is a bellows pocket with a flap where the position patch goes. The troop numerals have a tan background with darker tan numbers. I could not tell if the patch is held on by velcro or not. Each of the chest pockets is a bellows type pocket with velcro closures. The overall look was very understated which made the colorful CSP and OA flap look somewhat out of place. The pants are an update of the switchback pants. Each leg has a large bellows type pocket with velcro closures. It is hard to tell but because of the size of the pocket, the zipper for the leg bottoms appears to be at or below the knee. It was unclear whether this was the actual new uniform or a work in progress. It was explained to me that this change came from National Supply, which has the authority to tweak the current uniform. A radical makeover (e.g. changing the colors) would have to come from the Boy Scout Committee. Jay L. Lenrow Chairman -- National Jewish Committee on Scouting Area 5 Metro President -- Northeast Region Member -- National Relationships Standing Committee Member -- National Religious Relationships Committee Past President -- Baltimore Area Council I used to be a Buffalo (NE IV-123) but I'll always be an Eagle (1966) Proud son of a Life Scout and proud father of an Eagle

RememberSchiff writes: I would not sew any patches on a breathable shirt as it would block the "breathing". I agree with Gold Winger on that point. For the last 13 years I've been sewing all my "Class A" Scout patches on tan high performance shirts from EMS, REI, etc., and it has never noticeably reduced ventilation under stress in the back country. They never wrinkled the nylon material as some people fear either. I did take the advice offered to me by one of the BSA's most senior executives: Reduce the number of patches to the absolute minimum (Council, unit number, position) and skip the attention-getting clutter of all the rest of my adult awards, quality unit, temporary patches, etc., etc. He told me that when he was in charge of Boy Scout Division badges, every couple of weeks a Scouter would call his office to ask if there was an official badge to indicate that he had gone to Wood Badge. He would always answer, "Yes! There are two!" When the salivating Scouter asked how he could obtain them, he would answer, "They both came on the ends of your leather thong!" Kudu The Uniform is an Outdoor Method!

Tahawk writes: THEN, you posted that election of PL's is OK, just not "regular" elections. While I understand your distinction (and think that "rotating leadership" would not be effective), your seeming switch in positions drew my comment about a "moving target." If the only tool you have is a hammer then everything you see starts to look like a nail, doesn't it? I enjoyed the fascinating account of your Troop as a Scout. It certainly was not the Eagle mill that I envisioned when you wrote: The only "required" "outdoor" MB's were Camping and Cooking. In short, car campin' was just AOK for SLE. Camping Merit Badge in 2008 is far more demanding, physically and mentally, than it was in 1962 or before... Cooking MB, "required" back then, could be earned back then in your back yard (or front yard). Perhaps it would be more productive if you gave us an account of some the successful programs of the Troops you have served as an adult, and how you think using what you perceive to be "the only legitimate, lawful option in Boy Scouting here" helped. jblake47 writes: I have always favored a consensus with a placement over just voting. A consensus is somewhat of a vote anyway... I agree. The current Scoutmaster Handbook (SMHB) does not use the word "vote" anyway. On the page facing one of those fake Baden-Powell quotes it says: "The members of each Patrol elect one of their own to serve as their patrol leader." There is no bold face official definition of "elect" which means that consensus can easily fit within a definition of "elect" such as "to make a selection of" or "to choose, especially by preference." The SMHB also uses words such as "select," "choose," and "decide," but I did not see the word "vote." So strictly speaking, "voting" is "adding to the requirements," and those who force their Scouts to do so should consider leaving the BSA and finding some other opportunity for service before they start buying six-packs for the boys! Mike F writes: I had forgotten some of those details until I read your notes. Mike, the current Scoutmaster Handbook is 944 pages shorter than Bill Hillcourt's third edition, so a few details of the Boy Scout program (like the word "vote" and descriptions of the process--which do appear in this version) have been neglected. Here are some additional Hillcourt's suggestions that might also bring back memories: How to Select Patrol Leaders The question then arises 'Should the Patrol Leader be elected by the Patrol or selected by the Scoutmaster?' The answer is an emphatic--and apparently paradoxical--'Yes!' As a matter of fact, he should be either elected by the Patrol or selected by the Scoutmaster, or maybe both--according to the Troop's age and its peculiarities. Since the Scoutmaster has the ultimate responsibility, he naturally should decide upon the method to be followed. It is obvious that under different conditions it may be necessary to use different methods. A new Scoutmaster starting out with new boys with no previous Scout experience might want to select the leader himself, while a Scoutmaster, himself a Scout with several years' work with boys to his credit, because of his experience or viewpoint, would follow an entirely different course. Under the ideal Patrol Method, the Patrol Leader is selected by the expressed wishes of the members of the Patrol he is to lead. There is seldom any danger that the boys will choose the wrong boy for their leader. If they have had a chance to come to know each other through association in the Troop, their choice is usually the boy peculiarly fitted to their needs. The chosen leader may not always be the one the Scoutmaster might have most preferred, but the wise Scoutmaster should not override the Patrol's choice, except in a serious emergency, in which case he exercises his power of veto. It may be preferable to let the Patrol suffer for a short while the handicap of an unwisely chosen leader and thus learn by its own mistakes [emphasis added]. The Scoutmaster's Part If a very definitely unfortunate selection seems imminent to the Scoutmaster, through his more mature knowledge of the Scout in question, he may decide to call the Patrol together and give it a talk on the necessary qualifications of a Patrol Leader. This talk may even be so designed as to narrow the choice to the boy the Scoutmaster would like to see chosen. Almost invariably the boys will follow suggestions thus diplomatically given-and will feel that they, after all, did the choosing [emphasis added]. A modified election scheme is the method by which two or three boys in each Patrol are nominated by the Scoutmaster or the Troop Leaders' Council and one is elected by a vote of the Patrol. In some Patrols every boy writes out the names of the fellows he thinks are the three best leaders in his group. The results are not made known directly to the Scouts but practically every boy in the Patrol has some kind of rating placed upon him as a leader. At the Troop Leaders' Council meeting, with all the senior and junior leaders present, the ratings are gone over and it is decided just who will be the best leader for the group. In this way both Scouters and Scouts have a share in deciding who the Patrol Leaders shall be and the possibility of embarrassing situations is eliminated. In all instances, the appointment of the Patrol Leader should not immediately follow his election or selection. It should be definitely understood that he has to prove his mettle before the appointment is forthcoming. For this reason it is advisable to institute what might be called a "period of probation" during which the Scout is given the chance to prove that he is worthy of the high office of Patrol Leader. This period may be of one month or six weeks' duration, and should seldom be longer [Handbook for Scoutmasters, 3rd Edition, Page 184]. Kudu

It took ten years but the BSA finally produced the Switchbacks and prototype breathable nylon "Class A" shirt for which some of have been fighting ten years. Much to Gold Winger's dismay The fit on the Switchbacks is odd, I measured the inseam and it was correct but they are almost two inches longer than any other brand of pants I own. The material still needs some work: My Troops have been wearing olive-drab nylon zip-offs since the mid 1990s and we have never had a pair "pill" like the Switchbacks. Otherwise they work well in conditions as diverse as summer water sports to symbolic winter shell. Not so good for bushwhacking through thorns but I walk around those things. The Action Shirt, after which the prototypes of new Official Uniform Shirt are said to be modeled, is also very functional. The current Action Shirt collar requires that the neckerchief he worn over the collar which is a big plus to traditionalists, I hope that feature makes it to the final version. The only one of my suggestions that did not coincide with the prototype is (that if the redundant shoulder loops absolutely must remain), the Scout section be the same color as the shirt. Irving did get the message to "get the red out," but the new shoulder loops for Scouts will be green rather than beige. Not bad, and it is hard to believe that the embarrassing clown colors will finally be gone! Oh yeah, and except for the Elvis collar, the 100% cotton version of the "Class A" shirt is a joy to wear around town. So with a 99% success rate in the Uniform department, I can move on to my two new goals of kicking the Cub Scouts out of Wood Badge and adding to the Guide to Safe Scouting a requirement in bold-face type that Patrols be separated by a minimum of 300 feet. Gold Winger: the unpublished inside phone number to talk directly to one of the DSL tech guys is 800-305-1094. Kudu The Uniform is an Outdoor Method!

AnneinMpls writes: I think next time I'll try to do it as a hike, with a cookout and stops along the way to do some of the booklarnin! Ideas? For what it's worth, here is a Boy Scout Patrol Leader Training planning session for a hike with a cookout: http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/3rd.htm Kudu

Tahawk writes: I don't believe that you did reply to my point about appointing PL's. BP said in Scouting for Boys that PL's were appointed. Where do you find his "official rule" of consultation, whatever "consult" means, and when was that "rule" promulgated? As far as I know that was always the adult version of the rules. A 17MB (72 dpi) scan of the 1938 Canadian version of Baden-Powell's Policy, Organisation, & Rules (PO&R) can be found online at the following URL. http://www.scoutscan.com/history/scoutbook_72dpi.pdf An easier to read 70 MB (150 dpi) version can be found at: http://www.scoutscan.com/history/scoutbook_150dpi.pdf Under the Canadian numbering system the reference would be Sec. 58 & 59 [Note, "Troop Leader" = SPL]: Sec. 58. -- Troop Leader A Troop Leader may, if desired, be appointed by the Scoutmaster, in consultation with the Court of Honour, to perform any duties compatible with these rules which may be assigned him. The following qualifications are required-- (a) Ability to lead. (b) Service as a Patrol Leader for at least six months. © The First Class Badge. (d) A general knowledge of Scouting for Boys. ... Sec. 59. -- Patrol Leader A Patrol Leader is a Scout appointed by the Scoutmaster, in consultation with the Court of Honour or the Patrol concerned, to take charge of a Patrol Scouts. Tahawk writes: And now that I have come to your advocacy of the Patrol System as a program "rigidly controlled" by adults, "consult" must be simply window-dressing. 99% of all of the problems of the Boy Scout program would be solved if the Guide to Safe Scouting conformed to Baden-Powell's rule that Patrols always camp at least 300 feet apart. The other 1% are due to reading comprehension The rigidly controlled by adults passages that you cite (found under "Strong moralistic stuff," above) are all BSA quotes from before the BSA adopted the Patrol Method on September 21, 1923. In other words, the "safe" tightly adult-controlled BSA program was the origin of Patrol elections. Tahawk writes: From BP's writing over the decades, I conclude that his ideas underwent gradual changes as to the details of the methods he advocated until he came to see the patrol as "the practical school of self-government." (BP, The Scouter, June, 1918). He was a firm believer in self-government long before 1918. Once the best possible Patrol Leader was appointed by the Scoutmaster, it was strictly hands off. The Patrol Leader represented his Patrol and the adults kept quiet in the Court of Honor unless asked for their opinion, as for example in the transcript where the Patrol Leader of the Woodpeckers has been slacking off by hiking his Patrol a mere eight miles to the same old location: PL Woodpeckers: We haven't had a proper Patrol Meeting, except that we went on a hike a fortnight ago; all present except three. We went about eight miles and explored the old mill. PL Owls: It's about time you found another hike route; you've been reporting about the old mill for the last eight months. Troop Leader: [Troop Leader = SPL] Well, perhaps you can offer him one of your more imaginative hikes. PL Woodpeckers: Thanks very much, but we're doing all right. The Owls can carry on with their own route marches. Troop Leader: Anything else, Jim? PL Woodpeckers: Yes. My Patrol thinks we ought to change round the Patrol Corners in the Troop Headquarters. We've been nearest the draft and furthest from the fire ever since the Troop started and we think it's time someone else had a turn. Troop Leader: Well I think that's a matter for the Scoutmaster. SM: It certainly opens up all sorts of possibilities. Perhaps we have been a bit hard on the Woodpeckers. In any case, I was going to suggest later on that it was time some of the Patrol Corners were re-made as the decorations are looking a bit musty. It might be a good idea to draw lots for the corners as some are obviously better than others and then to agree to move round once a year. Troop Leader: That seems a pretty sound suggestion to me so long as the Owls don't have to move. SM: I think it has to be all or none. Troop Leader: I suppose it has really, but there will be a bit of hard feeling about it. PL Woodpeckers: Well, there's hard feeling in my Patrol anyway; we think the best corners ought to be shared round as well as the worst. Troop Leader: Anybody else want to say anything about this? PL Cuckoos: I'm prepared to vote in favor of Skipper's suggestion. There'll be a bit of grumbling to start with but I think my chaps would benefit from a change of scene and I can't get them interested in doing anything with their present corner, so I hope we do shift. Troop Leader: All right then, we'll put it to the vote, but I think before you come to any final decision you ought to consult your Patrols in Council and then we can vote on it at the next meeting. Is that agreed? Nods of assent make it obvious that it is agreed. (Comment: The SM had been wanting to make this suggestion for many months as there was no doubt that the Woodpeckers had been handicapped by having the worst corner in the Headquarters, but very wisely he had not made the suggestion until the opportunity arose and he feels pleased with the way things have gone). See: http://inquiry.net/patrol/court_honor/coh_session.htm Tahawk writes: I believe that one obvious reason why democracy is part of the Patrol Method in Boy Scouting here is that Boy Scouting is not about producing "well-oiled" patrols. Our aim is to turn out better citizens (as in BP's "practical school of self-government"). When the objective is boys learning to be good citizens and good people, mistakes are part of the process. Yes, I hear that sentiment a lot in Wood Badge circles. Also, "Our aim is not to produce the best Patrol Leaders, but to teach leadership to every Scout. If our Troop had the best Patrol Leader in the entire world, it would be my responsibility to ask him to step down to give another boy a chance because my job is to teach leadership!" Manager school "experts" can say that because they do not train Patrol Leaders to manage controlled risk out of the sight of adults. So sure, if a Patrol Leader has no adult-level "lifeguard" responsibility then certainly there is no downside to meaningless six month popularity contests for good citizens and good people and mistakes that have no real consequences. Tahawk writes: In Boy Scouting, adults are present. That is an absolute requirement. What is your level of training? For someone who so often turns accusations of not obeying the rules into personal insults, you don't appear to have read much about the Patrol Method in the last 54 years. In 2008 "Boy Scouting" still allows adult-free Patrol Hikes and Campouts. Check the Guide to Safe Scouting under Leadership Requirements for Trips and Outings: "There are a few instances, such as patrol activities, where no adult leadership is required." Tahawk writes: Your advocacy is unlikely to change the mind of anyone involved in the process that brought us to that rule. That is what I mean by "cognitive dissonance." Tahawk writes: PL's did not lead "adult-free" campouts in 1954 when I became a Scout. Maybe not in your car-camping Troop. Adult-free hikes and campouts were the whole point of the Patrol Method in 1954. Your copy of the Handbook for Patrol Leaders would have had an entire chapter on how to take your Patrol on a Patrol Hike: CHAPTER VII PATROL HIKES At one of the very first Patrol meetings you have with your Scouts, one of them will ask: "When do we go on a hike" and in a moment the rest will join him in a multi-voiced chorus. Boys, and especially Scouts, want to go hiking. The out-of-doors fascinates them. The woods, the rivers, the "wide open spaces" call them. And they obey. As soon as you are able you will want to take your boys on Patrol Hikes. You want your Patrol to be a real one, and only a hiking Patrol is a real Patrol.... Degree of Responsibility The most conspicuous difference between the two [Patrol Meetings and Patrol Hikes] is the different degree of responsibility that goes with each. There are usually not very many dangers in running an indoor meeting. It is when you start to take the group out in the open that the danger moment may creep in. There is traffic to be encountered, cliffs and rivers and swamps to be avoided; there is the danger than an innocent camp fire will blow up into a forest fire if care is not taken. And a lot of other unforeseen things that might happen which would put you in a severe test [emphasis added]. Likewise in 1954 your copy of the Handbook for Patrol Leaders had another entire chapter about how to take your Patrol camping without adults: CHAPTER VIII PATROL CAMPING The outdoor part of Scouting fascinates the boys. The hikes that bring them out into nature have their absolute approval, but, after all, the experience which they are most looking forward to from the day you start the Patrol is --Camp. Camp is a word filled with adventure to every real boy. It stands for freedom, fun and adventure. Unlucky is the Scout who hasn't had his taste of camp life. One of your greatest services as a Patrol Leader is to try to make your Patrol into a Camping Patrol trained in the ways of the experienced campers. This takes time. It takes time. It takes also patience and perseverance. But it can be done, and you are will under way toward doing it, the day you have made your boys into real hikers as described in the previous chapter. The official BSA policy that real Patrols require real adult-free hikes and campouts should have been crystal clear to your adult leaders in 1954. For instance, on page 118-119 of their copies of Handbook for Scoutmasters (fourth edition): Patrols are ready to go hiking and camping on their own just as soon as the Patrol Leader has been trained, and the Scouts have learned to take care of themselves....It should be your goal to get your Patrol Leaders qualified for hike and camp leadership at an early stage [emphasis added]. Rather than that car-camping White Stag stuff, the official BSA Patrol Leader training course that your Scoutmaster was supposed use to train you to get your Patrol out hiking and camping without adults was on page 376 of his Handbook for Scoutmasters. See: http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm When you first took Scouter training in 1962, the exact same wording appeared on the exact same pages of your own Handbook for Scoutmasters (fifth edition). The same official Patrol Leader Training course that you were supposed to be using was on page 369 of your handbook. I hope that helps. Kudu

jblake47 writes: I am in a major reorganizational movement in my troop, 6 members to 23 members overnight and so I need to have effective leadership, but that doesn't mean the process couldn't change sometime in the future. I have made the transition a couple of times when at the request of District Commissioners I became Scoutmaster of "Troops in trouble." Once your 1) Patrols camp apart and 2) the Troop understands that the bottom line is effective leadership, you can transition to elections if you follow Hillcourt's Patrol Method (including teaching them the criteria and requiring a significant trial period between the election and the formal installation ceremony). The enemy of leadership effectiveness is not elections, the problem is regular elections! If a Patrol only holds an election when they need to (the Patrol Leader can no longer camp regularly for instance), then if they are accustomed to excellence in leadership and camping as a well-oiled machine, you can get them to concentrate on who can best take the place of their best leader. With regular elections the Patrol thinks in terms of time periods and whose turn it is to get POR credit. jblake47 writes: The problem for me seems to be in choosing between a lesson in citizenship, i.e. voting or a lesson in effective leadership, i.e. appointments. Let me address some of Tawhawks points in that context. The assumption of most BSA Scouters is that Scouting teaches citizenship through a) elections and b) those three boring school instruction Citizenship Merit Badges. Baden-Powell taught that Citizenship is learned through a) self-government under the best Patrol Leader (adult hands off after a PL was appointed), b) adult-free hiking and camping under the leadership of the best Patrol Leader where Scout Law (rather than adult intervention) is the best practical guide for getting along... I received a couple of Private Messages that indicate that I have not explained that very well. Maybe Beavah will take a stab at it if he replies to Tahawk. ...and c) selfless public service without thought of compensation, what in Christian venues Baden-Powell called "Practical Christianity". I witnessed a Troop election this Monday where ALL of the older Scouts declined nominations for office unless they currently needed POR credit. To understand how counting hours of public service and months of PORs for advancement undermines the public service aspect of adult citizenship, try this simple experiment: Get your Troop Committee to declare that Scouts learn best by example and from now on all of the adults in the Troop will also run for office every time the Scouts do. As Tahawk says there is no reason why the same people can't be re-elected every six months, but the adults should nominate a token candidate to run against the current Scoutmaster (SM), Committee Chairman (CC), Treasurer, etc. See how long they stick around! The simple truth is that if you have those Patrols 300 feet apart and hiking without adults, a good Patrol Leader is as important as a dedicated, gifted CC, Treasurer, and SM. And simply put: "If you want something done, ask a busy man!" Every gifted leader --boy or adult-- has many demands on his time outside of Scouting. If you have a small Troop and are fortunate enough to have a good CC or Treasurer, then you should be aware that they are constantly asked to volunteer their time to other equally deserving causes. If you train them to think in terms of six month commitments, then when some other worthy cause asks them for their time they are more likely to step down at the next election and let someone else have "their turn," just as your Scouts do. That is human nature, not just an adult thing. We complain that Scouting competes with other interests but we force them to run for office on a regular basis and dumb the program down to lessen the risk. Can you afford to loose a good CC or Treasurer to teach your Scouts a lesson? If the "Scouts run the Troop" then why do you think that you can afford to loose a good Patrol Leader? Most importantly when we added months of POR requirements to advancement (to get more Scouts to go to manager school), we cheapened the Citizenship of public service by teaching Scouts to put a price on their contribution of time. Kudu

OK, in my last Troop the only Troop equipment we had was one of those large carport dining shelters (if it looked like wind and heavy rain all weekend), plus a couple extra tents and sleeping bags. Each Patrol had four plastic totes for equipment & food. The Scouts owned their own tents. Quartermaster policy was always ad hoc depending on the personalities of the best available talent. Kudu

jblake47 writes: If Kudu is right, wouldn't everyone be totally lost at a campout as to not only where IS the QM but what patrol is he in? What patrol has the Scribe and where are they located? Are you suggesting a Troop keep its Patrols close together in case somebody needs to find the Scribe in a clerical emergency? When the Patrols are separated, a good Patrol Quartermaster is as important to a Patrol's success as a good Patrol Leader and about as difficult to find. Most of their work is done before the campout so a Patrol needs a detail person who doesn't mind missing out on whatever else is happening during the meeting before each campout. All things considered, all dependable Patrol Quartermasters should have the rank and privileges of Troop Quartermaster including the Patch and POR credit. Gifted Quartermasters usually become Patrol Leaders when they are finally old enough to lead others without depending on the authority of adults. Kudu

Beavah writes: Kudu, you've got to be aware of da downside, too, eh? Not every SM is necessarily a virtuoso at selecting natural leaders. Some SMs would prefer PLs who were compliant; others PLs who were "favorites." Given that challenge, elections might provide a "check", just like they do in the real world. A check against what? The Scoutmaster's commitment to the Patrol Method is the weakest link either way, isn't it? A Scoutmaster who prefers compliant Patrol Leaders will use Scout Spirit or other sanctions to manipulate strong elected Patrol Leaders. On the other hand a SM who is committed to the Patrol Method but is aware that he is not very good at appointing natural leaders can confer with his PLC about prospective Patrol Leaders, as in the example "transcript." Smart young leaders tend to be overly critical of their peers which serves as a check against an open-minded Scoutmaster's blindness regarding his "favorites." The difference between Hillcourt's elections and most present-day elections is that unlike the usual criterion of rank, the Traditional BSA Scoutmaster had more relevant leadership criteria like the eight points above. I see a lot of magical thinking now. Either way, the real-world test is to break up the Troop Method (if only once a year at first) by getting those Patrols 300 feet apart! Kudu