Kudu

SR540Beaver writes: "I've always wondered what was so magical about the 300 foot distance for a patrol site. Will the patrol method fail at 275? Is 290 OK? Is it that boys are too lazy to walk 300 feet and therefore will stay out of another patrol's site? If they are too lazy to walk 300 feet, how can we expect them to hike? Why is 300 the magical number?" It is magical because it dates back to the very beginning of the Patrol System. "A football field apart" is easier for Scouts to understand. In some Councils "The same distance apart as Wood Badge Patrols" would work for adults. If we actually used Baden-Powell's Patrol System (as the fake Baden-Powell quotes in our literature imply), then the "best" distance between Patrols would be a popular topic of debate, rather than an abstract idea that "leadership" advocates feel compelled to sneer at. For instance, I think 20-50 feet apart is better for inexperienced or problematic Patrols. Have you experimented with 275 feet, or 290 feet, SR540Beaver? Or have you merely "always wondered"? Kudu

Eagle92 wites: "Also can you show me where in the current training syllabi where it says scouts can go on patrol events without adults? I honestly don't remember reading that, but I know you should always have 2 deep leadership." It is mentioned in the Guide to Safe Scouting under "Leadership Requirements for Trips and Outings:" Two-deep leadership: Two registered adult leaders, or one registered leader and a parent of a participating Scout or other adult, one of whom must be at least 21 years of age or older, are required for all trips or outings. There are a few instances, such as patrol activities, when no adult leadership is required. It is also mentioned in the Scoutmaster Handbook on page 22 under "Patrol Activities." Perhaps Bob White can give us an exact page reference if it is indeed mentioned in Leader Specific Training. However, to merely MENTION that we allow Patrols to hike and camp without adults patrol events is like mentioning that we allow Boy Scouts to swim in water over their heads. Why do so very few Scoutmasters allow that kind of thing (if only in the context of using Baden-Powell's distance of 300 feet between Patrols on regular Troop campouts)? Because WE DO NOT TRAIN THEM how to do it! As detailed above, the Patrol Leader Training course was ended in 1972. It was called "Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol." The Scoutmaster acted as Patrol Leader, the SPL as his Assistant Patrol Leader, and all of the Patrol Leaders and Assistant Patrol Leaders were the Green Bar Patrol members. The Scoutmaster showed them how to plan Patrol Hikes and Patrol Overnights, and then the "Green Bar Patrol" ACTUALLY DID REAL WORLD Patrol Hikes and Patrol Overnights. See: http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm But not anymore! What do suppose would happen if we treated Boy Scout Lifeguards the way we treat Boy Scout Patrol Leaders? Really, why don't our leadership "experts" cancel REAL WORLD waterfront training like they canceled REAL WORLD Patrol Leader training? Why not substitute manager theory for Lifeguard training like they do with Patrol Leaders? "BSA Lifeguard" is a "Position of Responsibility" isn't it? Why not give them POR credit for advancement and hold elections every six months so that the Troop can decide whose "turn" it is to be Lifeguard? Then take away REAL WORLD training and teach Lifeguards to save lives with EDGE and an office manger formula like forming-storming-norming-performing. It sounds stupid, but it is no more stupid than taking away REAL WORLD training for Patrol Leaders like we did in 1972 and then wonder why the few boys that remain are not competent to camp even 300 feet from the nearest adult as Baden-Powell suggested. The problem is the program, not the volunteers. If we trusted leadership "experts" to handle Lifeguard training like they now handle Patrol Leader training, then 36 years from now most Troops would go swimming in baby pools, just as most Troops now go camping in baby campsites. Gee, why no older Boy Scouts? The reason is that we teach "leadership" rather than the Patrol Method. Kudu

"The mistake that the BSA has made for decades is to extend the boy scout program pass the age of 14." Of course the Boy Scout program was not "extended" past the age of 14, what happened decades ago was that the outdoor adventure of William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt's "Real Patrols" was replaced by the abstract theory of Leadership Development. The goal of Patrol Leader Training (the crown jewel of Green Bar Bill's Patrol Method) had been to teach Patrol Leaders how to plan and lead Patrol Hikes and Patrol Overnights without adults hovering nearby. Hillcourt's Patrol Leader Training (designed for the Patrol's most gifted natural leader), was replaced by Bela Banathy's White Stag "Junior Leader Training" which traded Patrol Hikes and Patrol Overnights for 11 mental theories including "Controlling Group Performance" and "Understanding the Characteristics and Needs of the Group and Its Members." The term "Patrol Method" was redefined away from independent Patrol Hikes and Patrol Campouts to a Leadership Development version in which six-month "POR" popularity contest winners learned to "Control Group Performance" and "Understand the Characteristics and Needs of the Group and Its Members" under the close supervision of adults. What fun! The definition of "Patrol Method" has been corrupted to the point that now in the 21st century Scoutmaster "specific training" does not even MENTION Patrol Leaders in the Patrol Method session! Adult supervised High Adventure has become an alternative to the adventure that Hillcourt's Patrol Method offered before Banathy, but it is an optional activity. Any indoor boy can earn Eagle Scout without ever walking into the woods with a pack on his back. If an older boy belongs to a Troop that peddles the "Mission Statement" rather than High Adventure, then the only reason to endure Scout school is because your parents want you to add Eagle Scout to your resume. "Ages 6-10, the 'cub section' Ages 11-14, the 'scout section' Ages 15-18, the 'senior section' Ages 18-25, the 'rover section' " Note that Baden-Powell did NOT divide Boy Scouts into two sections. In his model of Scouting the Scout Section ended at age 18, and Rovers had NO upper age limit. The highest award in Scouting is not the Scout Section "King's Scout," but the "Baden-Powell Award" earned in Rovers. This extended outdoor adventure program encouraged boys to remain in Scouting as adults even if they did not want to serve as Scouters. The invention of the "Senior Scout Section" came after Baden-Powell (see the actual revision, below). This post-Baden-Powell "Section" could be the traditional individual Senior Scouts in a Boy Scout Section, a Patrol within a Boy Scout Troop (hence the term "Senior Patrol Leader" referred to the Patrol Leader of the Senior Patrol, not to the "Troop Leader"), or it could be a separate Troop within the Group. Between Baden-Powell's era and the 1966 Advance Party Report, the PO&R guidelines read: 88. To become a Scout, the youth must have attained the age of 11, but not have reached his 18th birthday. A). In an individual case a youth may become a Scout before the age of 11 provided that it is not more than 6 months before the 11th birthday. The SM and GSM must agree that this is justified due to physical development or other circumstances. If the youth is already a TimberWolf, the TWM must also agree. B). A Scout on reaching his 15th birthday may move to the Senior Scout Patrol or Troop. The candidate for Senior Scouts must have achieved a minimum level of 2nd Class Scout before being elevated to Senior Scouts. C). In a Group which has no separate Senior Troop or Patrol, a Scout who has attained the age of 15 but has not reached his 18 birthday, and who has attained the level of 2nd Class Scout, may elect to become a Senior Scout while still remaining in the Scout Troop. Bob White writes: "Would you please identify what country's scouting program has as a program element the ability of high school aged scouts to take other scouts over 12 miles from shore into the ocean on a sail boat or motor boat." Um, the entire British Empire: Senior Coxswain Proficiency Badge: 6. Organise and take charge of a Patrol expedition of 48 hours minimum duration in a sailing boat or motor cruiser. Journey to a point at least 16 Kms from the start and return. Keep a detailed log showing courses and distances. Route to be prepared by the candidate with proper reference to tides etc. Members of the Patrol to be properly organised as a boats crew. Other Required Expeditions unaccompanied by adults include: Venturer: 4. Make a journey of at least 32km (20 miles). on foot or by boat, with not more than 2 other Scouts. Route must be one with which the Scout is not familiar and should, if possible, include stiff country. Sleep out, using only the gear carried in a rucksack. Senior Explorer: An expedition by water will cover at least 50 miles and the log will cover such points as the state of the river, conditions of banks, obstructions to navigation etc. An expedition on Horseback will cover at least 120 miles in wild country, camping at 3 different camp sites. An expedition, whether on foot or otherwise, must be a test of determination, courage, physical endurance and a high degree of co-operation among those taking part. Ernest Thompson Seton's Degrees in Woodcraft (upon which Baden-Powell's Proficiency Badge system was based) included: Seamanship: 14. Sail a two-man boat for 100 miles without a professional sailor for companion, but yourself holding the tiller and directing its sail adjustment, etc. Traveler: 2. Travel 500 miles on foot, by bicycle, by canoe, or in saddle, camping out.(This message has been edited by Kudu)

Might defends rights when it is in harmony with the other four qualities of a good Patrol Leader. It is called "deterrence." Every Boy Scout should know that. Kudu

packsaddle writes: "But fighting was wrong back then as it is now." Fighting is far less likely when top dog is Patrol Leader.

OGE writes: "I started this thread because Kudu made refrence in the parent thread..." I did not comment because the title of this thread at best suggests that we can establish guidelines for that kind of thing. The things I look for in a Patrol Leader or SPL include: 1) Above average IQ, 2) adult-level verbal skills, 3) a love of outdoor skills that places Scouting at a higher priority than sports, employment, and other outside interests, 4) an internalization of Scout Law expressed in his actions, especially when nobody is looking, and 5) a bearing that discourages intimidation by other Scouts when adults are not present. When such rare leaders emerge I welcome them into the circle of adult leaders where they assume an informal role as a sort of senior assistant Scoutmaster, given that they are the equal of many adult volunteers except for experience and judgement. This SPL was such a leader: A 17 year-old Eagle Scout who had earned a scholarship to the Air Force Academy. My favorite memory of him was his reaction when he learned that one of the new sixth-grade Scouts was nicknamed "Spartacus." He told them the story of a slave by the same name who led an escape of 70 followers from gladiator school to a hideout on Mount Vesuvius, and eventually became the leader of an army of 100,000 escaped slaves in armed revolt against the Roman empire, killing the soldiers that defended the aristocrats who owned them. It is #5 that some readers find controversial because the invention of Leadership Development in 1972 required the dumming down of the Boy Scout program to Webelos III camping so that adults could teach Wood Badge theory to a new crop of "Junior Leaders" every six months. This rapid turnover of popularity contest winners required closer cub-style supervision than when Scouting was the most popular youth program in the United States, and the subsequent cancellation of Green Bar Bill's crown jewel, Patrol Leader Training, which had the single goal of teaching Patrol Leaders how to lead Patrol Hikes and Patrol Overnights without adult supervision. Unsupervised Patrol Hikes and Patrol Campouts are still allowed, but I don't see how you can accomplish that without the "hooligans" that Baden-Powell said make the best Patrol Leaders. It is precisely these street-savy boys who are no stranger to detention that always made the best Patrol Leaders in my old community. They had the bearing to hold things together in a Patrol of rough boys when adults were not around. In ten years only two punches were actually thrown by Patrol Leaders. The second was by another 17 year-old Eagle Scout, a high school football hero who returned a sixth-grader's sucker punch to the face with a hard punch to his arm. I did step in on that one because it was likely to happen again. After a number of incidents the sixth-grader was suspended and to my regret he never returned. He was the kind of bad boy who might have made a good Scout someday. He had an uncanny resemblance to Tom Felton and unfortunately to his character Draco Malfoy. He was small for his age and prone to anger and rebellion, but between violent outbursts he could be quite cheerful. As we paddled in a light drizzle on one autumn canoe trip, his remarkable soprano voice rang out over the still water as he sung Scout songs a cappella in the rain. Kudu

My posts OFTEN disappear when I hit the "back" button from the message preview screen. Sometimes I could retrieve them by hitting the "forward" arrow, but now I always compose the first draft on my Email software so I have a back-up copy. Then when I move back and forth in the browser on the final draft, I first hit [Crtl]A to select "all," and [Crtl] C to "copy" it to memory. When the message disappears, I hit [Crtl] V to insert it back onto the screen from memory.

scottteng writes: "My son is involved in martial arts and one of his favorite parts is sparring which is done under supervision and with appropriate safety gear. I think we should bring back boxing gloves, head gear and a ring and let the combatants have at for a few rounds. Such behavior seems to be hard wired into the male genetic code.: I have a small collection of Traditional Scouting "Physical Stunts" (from the days before Scouting turned to business manager gurus for its heroes) at the following URL: http://www.inquiry.net/OUTDOOR/campfire/stunts/physical.htm It includes a couple of the old official BSA boxing games, below. How about the the directions for HOG TYING: "The game will need an umpire who will impose fair play and properly deal with ill temper. There are no rules except fight hard, play fair, and be a man." Enjoy BLINDFOLD BOXING is a great game, especially for the camp fire. Let the other campers make a circle so as to protect the combatants from the fire. Thoroughly blindfold both after placing on the gloves. Then quietly and without the boxers knowing it, smear both boys' gloves with soot from the fire and let them go to it. After the bout, take off the blindfolds and everybody laugh at the boys uproariously. They will promptly demand an explanation. Then allow them to see themselves in a looking-glass. If space is limited, tie the two boxers together with a twelve-foot rope, foot to foot. BARREL BOXING: Take two sugar barrels, knock the bottom out of each and nail the hoops securely all around with small nails. Be very certain there are no sharp nails or splinters, and, if convenient, pad the top of the barrels. The game should be played on sand or sod, so as to avoid hard bumps. Each boxer is placed in a barrel and the referee calls the game. The contestants each pick up their barrel and move toward the approaching player. When they get near enough to box, the game is to see who can knock the other over first. Each down is a round. Avoid overdoing it. If barrels are carefully prepared there is no danger of accident. Be sure the barrels are large enough so as to allow the contestants free movement on the inside POLE BOXING: Choose a spot near the camp fire where the grass is soft. Then lash a stout green sapling, about four inches in diameter, which has previously been padded with an old blanket, to a larger tree just high enough from the ground so the contestants cannot touch the ground when straddling the sapling. The other end of the sapling may be held up with a crotch, or may be suspended by means of a rope from a nearby limb. At any rate, be certain it is solid. Give each contestant one boxing glove and allow both to mount the sapling, holding on with the ungloved hand. Each time a contestant loses his balance so that he must use his gloved hand to keep him from falling, is counted a round. http://www.kudu.net/OUTDOOR/campfire/stunts/physical.htm Kudu

I'm SO glad our SPL spared us the need for all this racial sensitivity drama.

"I think it was Gandhi who observed that an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth soon leads to a blind and toothless world." Years ago up north, a mentally-challenged Assistant Scoutmaster flung the n-word at our SPL, and the SPL simply punched him square in the face. I interviewed the SPL, the ASM, and then all the black and white Scouts present. Everyone agreed that the matter had been settled to their satisfaction. We never had a problem with the n-word again. I hope that helps Kudu

Chug writes: "Kudu, your replies are becoming increasingly illogical." This is called "projection," Chug. You are projecting your faulty logic on me. Chug writes: "The word Scout when used in connection with a youth organisation is associated with groups that are members of WOSM, WAGGGS and WFIS." Who says? The British Boy Scouts (established in 1909) is a member of the Order of World Scouts (established in 1911). WOSM was not established until 11 years later. If membership in an international Scouting organization was required to be a Scout, then the boys in Baden-Powell's association could not be considered "Scouts" until 1922. Chug writes: "If you say to someone almost anywhere in the world that you're a Scout they will make an instant connection to the movement begun by BP, 'cola', 'burger' and 'software' are generic terms." "Scout" is a generic (non-trademarked) term adopted for use in youth organizations in the book Scouting for Boys by Baden-Powell, just as "burger" is the generic (non-trademarked) term for ground beef shaped into a patty. Baden-Powell did not trademark the term, and it was in common use in the United States before the BSA was invented. Kudu

Recruiting in the public schools always brought in 12-20 Scouts a year for me. See The Inquiry Net: http://inquiry.net/adult/recruiting.htm

GaHillBilly writes: "I hadn't realized the role PORs played in forcing this stupid process of replacing one unskilled, untrained leader with another one who's even worse, but your explanation makes sense of both what I've seen and what I've read. But, now that I get it, the only question for me is, 'How do I get around it?'" Well, that depends on where you are going once you get around it If your goal is to get your strongest Patrols physically separated on campouts, then everything else falls into place. My concern is NOT that incompetent Scouts are "getting away" with collecting POR credit. The real problem is (as you note) that the current business manager model encourages a high turn-over of Patrol Leaders. This causes a weak Patrol Method where teenagers are expected to camp like Cub Scouts. The goal of Leadership Development is to subject the Patrol Method to high turn-overs to train as many managers as possible. This is why BSA literature recommends six-month election cycles. But as Gold Winger points out, there is no rule that requires these regular elections. Likewise there is no rule against using the older Traditional BSA Patrol Method in which each Patrol holds its own separate election only when they actually need a new Patrol Leader. Therefore, there is no reason to be discouraged. There is great value in reading the older "Green Bar Bill" Scoutmaster handbooks (3rd, 4th, and 5th editions) written before the invention of Leadership Development in 1972. The ratio of gifted natural Patrol Leaders to unskilled Scouts is probably similar to the ratio of gifted natural pitchers in a Little League team. At best the Traditional Patrol Method is designed around the idea that this ratio is approximately 1:8, but sometimes that is overly optimistic My goal is always to find these three natural leaders in every two dozen Scouts. The time to talk to them is while backpacking, if only on short trips of a couple miles. I ask them to serve as if this request is the most important part of my job. When they agree, I guide them through the election process, following Green Bar Bill's advice. I find that a natural leader has 1) above average IQ, 2) adult-level verbal skills, 3) a bearing that discourages being bullied by other Scouts, 4) an all-consuming love of camping (to which sports and jobs are secondary), 5) a natural and assertive embodiment of Scout Law. Note that these qualities are often found in the more rebellious Scouts. Baden-Powell recommended appointing hooligans Once the natural leaders are in position, my next priority is to find good Quartermasters: Obsessive-compulsives All good Patrol Quartermasters should get a Troop Quartermaster patch (a Troop is not limited to only one Troop Quartermaster). AFTER the PATROL Leaders and Quartermasters are in place, THEN we match less committed older Scouts up with unnecessary TROOP Method positions such as TROOP Guides, TROOP Instructors, TROOP JASMs. Your ideas are fine. My approach differs in that rather than building policies and rules around the PORs, I work with the PLC to match the REAL strengths and talents of each individual Scout to the approximate description of a POR. Therefore, this role changes with each Scout who holds the position. Kudu

Chug writes: "Good point, I wonder why Kudu hasn't responded yet?" Eisely's reply should provide the BSA with some good leads for forcing Baden-Powell's Scout Association to cease and desist using the word "Scout" if the Supreme Court rules that they actually have a trademark on the word. Nothing personal, Chug, as you say "The problem is, if that organisation later folds under a heap of financial irregularities or child abuse allegations you can guarantee that some people will assume it is the BSA because of the use of the name Scout." Ask any American Wood Badger: Baden-Powell does not have anything to do with "modern" Scouting! Scouting in the 21st century is about business management hyped as "leadership!" Think of your impending defeat as a opportunity! You can turn your brand of circular logic into a business: Any corporation can Chug generic words with the same argument: Coca Cola can argue that if we continue to allow Pepsi and other companies to use the word "Cola," then when someone finds a dead mouse in a bottle of Cola, you can guarantee that some people will assume it is Coca Cola because of the use of the name "Cola." McDonalds can argue that if we continue to allow other businesses to use the word "Burger," then when someone gets sick from an undercooked burger, you can guarantee that some people will assume it is McDonalds because of the use of the name "Burger." Microsoft can argue that if we continue to allow other companies to use the word "Software," then when someone gets a computer virus, you can guarantee that some people will assume it is Microsoft because of the use of the name "SOFTware." All it takes is to have the nanny state pick your corporation as the winner in your market! Kudu

Chug from Great Britain writes: "If you are too much of a numpty to tell the difference between someone in the US setting up a youth organisation and calling it Scouts, and a sovereign countries Scout Association that's your problem." "Numpty"? Is that the UK equivalent to the Scout Law "Courteous"? YOU are the one who supports a BSA trademark on "Scouts," not me. I am just helping you understand the implications of your position. "Sovereign" has nothing to do with it, your country has a trademark treaty with ours so you would have to honor a BSA trademark on "Scouts" if it was legitimate, just as you are bound to honor the trademark on "Coca Cola." Oh, by the way, as a supporter of the BSA's trademark on Scouting, be sure to inform the French that you support the BSA's claim to own the generic fleur-de-lis, as well! Chug from Great Britain writes: "BSA's policy on gays aside, I find it very telling that you've just described girls as unclean...." The "unclean" accusation is not mine as you insist, it is part of the BSA monopoly on Scout Law that YOU support. Their authority comes from Leviticus, which also describes women as unclean (Lev.15:19- 24). I'm sure that you and the BSA agree that one can not pick and choose which of God's laws to obey. Kudu

"Yah, OK, maybe I'm just a touch skeptical of Kudu's Beef Wellington while backpackin'" You mean the backpacking ovens? I haven't used one yet myself. The cooks prepared different baked bread foods for a couple dozen people. I believe the temperature was in the upper teens. My point in the parent thread is that when used for "plop camping," you can cook anything on a lightweight backpacking stove that you can cook on a monster propane-tree stove, as long as each Patrol has a couple lightweight stoves with simmer capability. The idea is to get the weight down so that you can spread the Patrols apart, but that does not rule out coolers and fresh food when you use lightweight stoves for car camping. Of course you must be careful not to try to balance big pots of food or boiling water on a tiny stove. I usually recommend a lightweight folding grill for that, but I prefer flat stones when they are available. As far as backpacking goes, I like Gretchen Mchugh's Hungry Hiker's Book of Good Cooking I don't recall if she mentions Beef Wellington, but her recipes are excellent. Her idea of dehydrating lean ground beef and then adding it to other foods in the field was new to me. When I am lazy I just combine the re-hydrated ground beef with a package of Hamburger Helper You can find used copies of her book for as little as 56 cents at the following URL: http://tinyurl.com/6oeftr Note to Gunny2862: A mention in a church bulletin about Scouts, cooking and the need for food dehydrators usually renders us a few donations from people with unloved food dehydrators in their attics. Another really good source of dehydrator backpacking recipes is Lipsmakin' Backpackin' by Tim and Christine Conners. WARNING: Their Appalachian Trail Jerky is highly addictive. You may remember that Christine asked for Scout recipes here a while back, and their resulting book The Scout's Outdoor Cookbook is also available at the following URL: http://tinyurl.com/58ho8l Appalachian Trail Jerky from "Lipsmakin' Backpackin'" by Tim and Christine Conners 2 pounds flank steak Marinade: 1/3 cup teriyaki sauce 2 tablespoons liquid smoke 1/4 cup low-salt soy sauce 2 tablespoons Worcestershire Sauce 1/2 teaspoon onion powder 2 teaspoons pepper 2 teaspoons crushed red pepper 2 tablespoons brown sugar Total weight: 12 ounces Weight per serving: 1 ounce Total servings: 12 At home: Trim fat from steak and slice with grain into 1/4 X 1 1/2 inch strips. Combine marinade ingredients in a bowl. Add beef strips and stir, making sure sauce covers meat. Cover with plastic and marinate overnight. The next day, place meat strips flat on two large cookie sheets. Bake in a 150 degree oven for about 10 to 12 hours. Pack in a sealed container or bag. Note: I multiply all of the marinade ingredients (except the pepper and red pepper) by three so that i can submerge the meat

Chug from Great Britain writes: "Hmmm! Considering that Britain was the founding country, and that Scouting there predates the BSA by nearly 2yrs, makes this the daftest post I've read on these boards." Well, that is the whole point, isn't it? Scouting in the United States also predates the BSA by nearly 2 years, and it predates the nanny state's Congressional Charter by nearly 18 years. Using your logic, if a UK organization folds under a heap of financial irregularities or child abuse allegations you can guarantee that some people will assume it is the BSA because of the use of the name "Scout." Plus, all UK Scouting associations (including the conservative Christian ones) allow gays and girls to join. By the BSA's definition of "Scouting" that is not "clean" or "morally straight." So if you are "Trustworthy" and honor the trademark treaties between our two great nations, you would be free to organize camping activities for your children as long as you don't call it "Scouting"! Kudu

nolesrule writes: And as for "scouts" being a common word, I've already said twice on these message boards that the Congressional Charter gives the BSA additional trademark protections beyond those that are standard. "The corporation has the exclusive right to use emblems, badges, descriptive or designating marks, and words or phrases the corporation adopts." This statement exceeds limitations of traditional trademark law (and Congress has the power to allow that, just like MLB has an exemption to the Sherman Antitrust Act). So we really need to completely drop the "scouts is a common word" part of the argument has already been kaboshed. The Congressional Charter does not SPECIFY that the corporation has the exclusive right to use the term "Scout." If the BOY Scouts of America can claim "Scout," then why not the word "BOY"? It is a matter of INTERPRETATION, which is why we have courts. If the Ninth Circuit rules in the Youthscouts' favor, then the BSA will appeal to the Supreme Court. Even if the case is ultimately ruled in the BSA's favor, it will raise the understanding in the general population that Congress has the right to change the Charter at anytime, as specified in the Charter: 1) When the Charter was granted, most people believed that the nanny state should pick one corporation and make it the winner of Scouting. Since then, however, not everyone believes that this religious corporation is the best guardian of a Scouting Movement for ALL boys, the YMCA's original justification for the monopoly. 2) Also, the problem with the nanny state is that the lack of competition in a free market causes the favored corporation to go soft. If defeated, Youthscouts and its supporters should point out to Congress that the BSA has been dumbed down to a classroom/Cub Scout program rather than its mandate "to promote...the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, to train them in scoutcraft...using the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916." When more people understand that Congress picking the winning Scouting corporation is like Congress picking the winner of the Cola Wars, perhaps Congress can be persuaded to let the BSA continue to fill the needs of boys who yearn to sit indoors "side by side with adults of character," but (similar to the arrangement with the Girl Scouts) allow for the establishment of additional Scouting associations willing to "use the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916." Chug from Great Britain writes: "The problem is, if that organisation later folds under a heap of financial irregularities or child abuse allegations you can guarantee that some people will assume it is the BSA because of the use of the name Scout." In that case the BSA should shut down all of the Scouting associations in Great Britain, especially since all three of them (even the conservative Christian group "The British Boy Scouts") violate the BSA's membership policies. If the BSA's "trademark" on Scouting is legitimate, Chug, then you are in violation of our two countries' trademark treaties! Kudu

Lisabob "Kudu, I hear you, but that assumes that the same folks who don't appear willing to apply or perhaps understand the patrol method now, be willing to approve real patrol camping." No, I am not talking about "Real Patrol camping" as described by Baden-Powell or Green Bar Bill. I suggest that you (and GaHillBilly too) link up with at least one other adult and take your son's Patrol camping. The Troop in which I first volunteered as an adult was run by an Eagle Scout Scoutmaster, the kind who earn Eagle without ever walking into the woods with a pack on their backs. He started every meeting with a long lecture about their behaviour, and then moved the Troop into one of the classrooms to teach school lecture style. He had a list of cabins in the area used by Girl Scouts and Cub Scouts, and he picked the ones with central heating. His favorite was the "Red Jacket" (built and maintained by Wood Badgers); it had two microwave ovens and projection TV: The ultimate Wood Badge vision of adventure! He was very popular with the mothers and he loved to explain to them in great detail as to why the Patrol Method did not work with "modern boys." Most of the rebellious kids were in the same Patrol and they were led by an exceptionally talented Patrol Leader who was always in trouble for one thing or another. It turned out that some of the dads on the Committee were not impressed with BSA Advancement but were not outdoorsmen themselves. So together we organized separate Patrol campouts for the "problem Patrol." The SM was very much against winter camping and backpacking, but there was not much he could do because enough of the Committee was willing to take the Patrol camping. A Patrol is the primary unit of Scouting. If Beavah's advice does not work for you then why not just atake your son's Patrol camping (if you have outdoor skills)? Be sure to give them some physical space so your son does not feel too self-conscious Kudu

Does your son like the Scouts in his own Patrol? Best cure for a bad Troop is to organize Patrol campouts, if only in the form of a "Patrol" of adults camping at some distance from your son's Patrol. Kudu

110 winter activities can be found at The Inquiry Net: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/winter/activities/index.htm If you can rent one, the "Ice Box" Igloo-Making kit is more practical than quinzees if you decide to make them on a campout (the Ice Box requires less snow and wet clothes): http://inquiry.net/outdoor/winter/shelter/igloo_kit.htm For those who are not familiar with Seton's Book of Woodcraft, it evolved into his Birch Bark Roll. The entire text can be found at: http://inquiry.net/traditional/seton/birch/index.htm Kudu

Scouter760 writes: "Nothing wrong with light weight equipment, but if you're talking about having dutch ovens and bear barrels, you are not doing light weight camping either." The basic idea behind buying light-weight equipment for regular "plop" camping is that (for instance) Patrols use MSR WhisperLite stoves (as detailed on pages 226-265 of the Boy Scout Handbook) for regular monthly campouts, rather than Coleman two-burner stoves with typical propane trees and bright glaring lanterns. Investment in light-weight equipment does not rule out ad hoc variations such as lugging along Dutch ovens if the Patrol wants to. However, I would agree that light-weight alternatives do work very well. At my last Okpik winter backpacking trip, I was surprised at how well back-packing ovens work for baking even in very low temperatures. Cheap Rubbermaid totes give a Patrol flexibility if they can not fit everything in their packs, whereas the Patrol box that resqman describes requires an absolute commitment to what Baden-Powell described as "Parlour Camping," more suitable for Cub Scouts and Girl Scouts than for teenage boys whose sense of adventure is better satisfied by the significant separation of Patrols as detailed by both Baden-Powell and Green Bar Bill. Bear barrels are used to store food while backpacking. Bear bags are now against the law in some areas. Kudu

Eagletrek writes: "Well Kudu once again you miss the point. I never said that scouts shouldn't do lite-weight treking. That said, I think that scouts should also be allowed to "plop" camp when they desire." The "point" is that light-weight camping equipment can be used for BOTH treking AND "plop" camping. Why buy TWO sets of equipment? Eagletrek writes: "From your posts, it appears that one cannot properly execute the Patrol Method and to some degree the program if they don't go lite-weight." By Baden-Powell's standards, the Patrol System requires at least 300 feet between Patrols so that Scouting is an adventure. Before light-weight equipment was invented, Scouts used "trek carts" to transport the heavy stuff into the backwoods. Eagletrek writes: "I'll never limit the spectrum of camping for my scouts." The correlation of heavy equipment with NEVER camping 300 feet apart (or even 30 feet) is probably 100%. Forcing teenagers to camp in the corners of a small camping plot is to reduce them to Wolf Cub camping. There is nothing wrong with Webelos III for a change of pace like a Camporee or a "lock in", but to impose heavy equipment on Scouts is to keep them barefoot and tied to your apron strings. Eagletrek writes: "I'd love it if every camping trip we ventured out on took us to those majestic places potrayed in the Scout Handbook but being from Central Texas that isn't always possible." Baden-Powell's point is that is when you separate the Patrols, camping requires REAL responsibility and even the most mundane locations are full of adventure, especially after dark. Scouter760 writes: "Yes, big and heavy. However, a part of the tradition of scouting. They emphasize the patrol working together. The boys have to work together to set it up." Most Scouts would rather "work together" in a Wide Game with the time they save by camping light See: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/equipment/lightweight_camping.htm and: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/games/wide/index.htm Scouter760 writes: "Plastic totes break." A $7 Rubbermaid tote will last more than seven years with typical Patrol use. Plastic totes are good for Troops that do not want to lock themselves into the significant weight of wooden boxes, but can not picture using lightweight equipment on monthly campouts. "A good patrol box is stable, wind-resistant, fairly water proof and animal-proof when closed up." Just put something heavy like a Dutch oven or water jug on the top of the totes, or use straps. In bear territory food should be kept in a bear-barrel. If you store food in Patrol boxes, expect a long night of crashing pots and pans as the bears roll the boxes until they break Kudu

914_SPL writes: "Did I do anything wrong? It got to the point that I felt it was taking away from the other 25 scouts that were listening attentively." You handled the situation very well. The very best SPLs can ALWAYS deal with minor problems directly without getting too harsh. If you let the adults handle the discipline then you signal to your Scouts that you are NOT their real leader. Note however that it is natural for boys to get bored when you make them sit and listen. In the olden days Scouting was the OPPOSITE of school. Beavah points to these "old school" methods in another thread: "It's a safety thing, I have to lecture for a long time first". Balderdash. Doesn't take much effort at all to select a location where a bunch of lads who are swimmers can safely hop aboard a canoe with a quick example and a helping hand and begin to paddle. Takes even less if yeh have a troop with real patrol method, and the older, more experienced boys in each patrol are providing an example and helpin' out the younger lads. See: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=216219#id_216598 914_SPL writes: "Is this a good way to run meetings (work on achievement that is applicable to a certain event) or should I try a different method?" Back in the olden days before Leadership Development was invented, all leaders (both Scout and adult) were taught to do EXACTLY THAT: All Scoutcraft instruction should lead to a specific outing. To do anything else is to turn Scout meetings into a boring school classroom. Why won't you be teaching the Camping Merit Badge yourself? If you are good at it, then mention "Scout Led" to a flexible Counselor and he or she should be willing to partner with you on that. If not, then consider picking a different Counselor. Be careful of the Woods Wisdom/Troop Program Helps. They can be very boring. If your PLC has any say in the matter, use your weekly Scout meetings to work on outdoor Badges that lead to a specific outing (to keep your meetings focused on the outdoors, and therefore interesting). Try to farm out the boring schoolwork badges like Citizenship elsewhere so that only the interested Scouts have to suffer through them. Kudu

"Youthscouts seeks to establish Scouting as defined by Baden-Powell." emb021 writes: "Sorry, but reviewing his website give me any no impression that 'youthscouts' is based in anyway on BP's scouting." Greg Wrenn's mission is much wider than defending his own youth program. He has always been in contact with all of the groups who seek to establish alternative Scouting in the United States, including the two American Traditional Scouting associations that are based on Baden-Powell's program. From his Website: "The case is scheduled to go to trial on January 26, 2009. At stake is nothing less than whether independent scouting, as intended by Baden-Powell, and as it existed in the United States prior to 1924, and as it still exists in other countries around the world, will be permitted to exist in the United States again." See: http://youthscouts.org/statement.html eisely writes: "Whatever happened to the "spiral scouts" organized a few year's back? Did BSA go after them as well?" Yes, they got the same cease and desist letter as everyone else. You can find their statement on the Youthscouts Website. Kudu