Kudu

Youthscouts seeks to establish Scouting as defined by Baden-Powell. Campfire is not Scouting. Campfire lacks a Patrol System in which Patrol Leaders are trained to lead their Patrols on hikes and overnights without adults hovering nearby. Likewise Campfire lacks training in Scoutcraft in which outdoor skills are tested at every rank with "Journeys:" A series of backwoods expeditions of increasingly difficulty designed to allow a Scout and a buddy to prove their level of Scouting unsupervised by one minute mangers. If the Youthscout's appeal is successful it will open the door for competition in the marketplace by alternatives to nanny-state Scouting. Kudu

emb021 writes: "While James West wasn't happy with the GSUSA calling themselves 'girl scouts' instead of 'girl guides'... he never went after them like he did with the various 'boy scout' groups." Not true. James West did in fact attempt to force the GSUSA to use the name "Girl Guides" in 1924, claiming that their use of the name "Girl Scouts" inflicted psychological damage on boys. The lawsuit in not mentioned in any Scouting history books, but a copy of the legal papers were offered on Ebay years ago. See The Inquiry Net: http://www.inquiry.net/adult/bsa_vs_gsusa.htm Kudu

Time requirements are the melamine of Scouting: The fake protein of a program that lacks real muscle. Any couch potato can earn Eagle Scout without ever walking into the woods with a pack on his back. Any Patrol Leader can learn business management "leadership" without ever taking his Patrol for a hike or an overnight. Time requirements, specific Positions of Responsibility requirements, and 500 word essays are all fake Scouting, as toxic as melamine. A Scout proved his mastery of Scoutcraft to Baden-Powell with adult-free "Journeys" at every rank: Eight miles for Second Class, 14 miles for First Class, with increasing distances for the higher ranks as they developed. A Scout proved he was a real Patrol Leader by taking his Patrol into the woods, not by setting his Patrol up in the corner of a small campsite. One minute managers may sing "Back to Gilwell," but it ain't so. Kudu

How to Throw a Tomahawk: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/skills/beard/throw_tomahawk.htm

"Personal attacks always say more about person who makes them than the person being "bashed."" Gold Winger writes: "Similarly, since I don't like soccer, I am really a soccer player but just don't realize it." GW, Projection in personal attacks is accusing an individual you don't know of something that has nothing to do with the topic being discussed. So if you rush into a Scouting discussion to discredit Stosh's views about JASMs by accusing him of being a soccer player, then yeah, you have some serious soccer issues :-/ Kudu

In the past about half of the Boy Scouts that I recruited in the public schools dropped out of Cub Scouts because they hate the scissors and paste. Last year I increased that percentage by convincing the parents of potential recruits that my Troop is NOTHING like Cub Scouts. See: http://inquiry.net/adult/recruiting.htm Boys do not drop out of Scouts because of their peers' opinions. They drop out when adults dumb Boy Scouts down to the Cub Scout level. Some of that is structural, when adults conform to the adult peer-pressure of trainers, Wood Badge experts, and BSA professionals who think it is "cool" to dumb down the Patrol Method to teach business manger work-group theory: "You can teach a kid about character and leadership using aerospace and computers. The secret is to get them side by side with adults of character...We've had CEOs on our board say they want to send their people to Wood Badge, our adult leader training program, because we use state-of-the-art techniques" (Chief Scout Executive Robert Mazzuca on the future of Scouting). Kudu (This message has been edited by kudu)

When Scouters describe Scouting practices used back in the days when EVERY red-blooded American boy WANTED to be a BOY SCOUT, Barry "Eagledad" often rushes in with his "Been There, Done That" T-shirt and accuses this person (whom he does NOT know in "real life") of disturbing psychological traits, presumably to discourage other readers from experimenting with methods that once worked with MILLIONS of Scouts. This unScout-like form of personal attack is called "projection:" to accuse other people of our own secret passions, to which we are blind. Personal attacks always say more about person who makes them than the person being "bashed." Kudu

GaHillBilly writes: "Thanks to Kudu, I'm aware that B-P never said "scouting is a game with a purpose." But, he did say something similar if less succinct and memorable." I always read GaHillBilly's articulate posts with great interest. No aphorism has done more damage to American Scouting than "Scouting is a Game with a Purpose." It is ALWAYS the justification for making Scouting a dreadful BORE for boys: Even though Baden-Powell wrote time and time again that Scouting is the OPPOSITE OF SCHOOL, the phrase always justifies model-based logic like: "Fitness is an Aim of Scouting? OK, how about achieving that Aim with Tenderfoot pull-ups just like SCHOOL?" "Citizenship is an Aim of Scouting? Well how about we make Scouts sit through three boring Citizenship Merit Badges, just like SCHOOL?" Likewise (as Baden-Powell warns), it is the OPPOSITE of Scouting to short-circuit it into SUNDAY SCHOOL! The actual author of "Scouting is a Game with a Purpose" is not Baden-Powell, it is William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt. The whole quote is as follows: "Yes, to a boy Scouting is a game--a wonderful game, full of play and full of laughter, keeping him busy, keeping him happy. Scouting is 'learning by doing' things that are enjoyable--exciting things! That's the strength of Scouting! A boy becomes a Scout for the sheer joy there is in it. To you and me Scouting is a game, also--but it is more than game of fun. To us, it is a game with a purpose--the purpose of helping boys to become men by training them for citizenship" [bold type emphasis in original]. See: http://inquiry.net/ideals/scouting_game_purpose.htm What is NOT generally understood is that the Traditional "SIX Methods of Scouting" changed in 1972 when Green Bar Bill's program was completely rejected by the Leadership Development and urban Scouting crowds. Before then the FIRST METHOD OF SCOUTING was: "The Scout Way (1. A Game, NOT a Science)" [emphasis in original]. See: http://inquiry.net/adult/methods/index.htm Green Bar Bill borrowed the phrase "A Game, NOT a Science" from Baden-Powell. Note that in the "Scouting is a Game with a Purpose" passage he uses Baden-Powell's SINGLE aim of Scouting ("training them for citizenship"), rather than the BSA's TWO Aims of Scouting at that time, or the BSA's current THREE Aims of Scouting. Since both the number of BSA "Aims of Scouting" and the number of "Methods of Scouting" have changed over the years, it should be easy to understand that they are only a THEORY, something tacked onto Scouting by committees. So this is my answer, GaHillBilly: Scouting is a Game. Period. Forget the "Purpose." "Purpose" is like "Meaning." There is no inherent "Purpose" or "Meaning" of Scouting. To look for such a "Purpose" is to turn the GAME into a SCIENCE. It is a GAME! The "Purpose" of Scouting is what you BRING to it. Like it or not, only YOU can become the expert on the question you have posed because it is YOU that has framed the question. The only way to answer it is for YOU to get out in front and show some leadership. To do so, simply: 1) FORGET ALL THE THEORY, 2) Get your son's Patrol out in the woods, 3) Observe your interaction with his Patrol with fresh eyes. Are you an outdoorsman? Do you have enough charisma to inspire Scouts to take command in an outdoor situation? If so, then I suggest that you and another adult strap on your backpacks and take your son's Patrol backpacking on a regular basis with the goal of having them take control. The distance is not important: A quarter of a mile at a Scout camp is fine at first. If you want to hike further, wait until the Scouts come up with that idea themselves someday. Real Scouting also depends on Service for Others projects. For what it is worth, Baden-Powell did NOT count service hours for what Americans call "Advancement." Service is done without thought for repayment in Traditional Scouting because IT IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO. But first and foremost: Central to Baden-Powell's Scouting is the idea that the BACKWOODS is a special place. We can debate the theory if you wish, but theory is secondary to the actual experience. The general idea is that if you spend enough time in the backwoods with the Scouts in the LEAD, then something about the simplicity of the natural environment will reveal to a sharp eye the character of your Scouts and give you ample opportunities to influence them as far as the level of your talent and the clarity of your insight allows. Real Scouting is all about jumping into the FLOW of the GAME. Kudu (This message has been edited by kudu)

Gold Winger writes: 'What do you mean "before PORs"?' The term "Position of Responsibility" was invented to refer to the practice of requiring a Scout to hold a specific office for a specific length of time to get credit for Advancement after First Class. Before then a Scout volunteered for service because it was the RIGHT THING TO DO and he was the right guy to do it, just like YOU volunteer for service as an adult, Gold Winger. When Scouting was a POPULAR program with teenagers, it took six months to train a good Patrol Leader how to hold Patrol Meetings and take his Patrol on unsupervised hikes and overnights. This six-month training investment made sense because a Patrol Leader remained Patrol Leader for as long as he was the best Scout for the job. What a radical idea, huh? Now the BSA encourages elections every six months so that with a rapid turn-over every "POR" can be trained with the same business manager work-group theory. As a result Patrols do not go on unsupervised Patrol Hikes any more, let alone Patrol overnights! Instead they come back from NYLT with notebooks full of "team-building exercises." You are or were a coach or umpire of some kind weren't you? How quickly would ANY sport turn into Cub Scouts if you held elections after every game so that every boy had a chance to be pitcher, quarterback, etc. so that you could teach EVERY position on the team the SAME business manager work-group theory hyped as "leadership"? Forget specialized training, instead you lead lame "team-building exercises" like "trust falls" and "Game of Life." Dumbing down Patrols so that you can keep your teenage Patrol Leaders barefoot and stupid, camped in the corner of a small campsite is NO different than forcing teenagers to play T-Ball because you want to teach business manager work-group theory rather than how to play ball. Kudu

PORs are inherently evil. They were invented after the retirement of William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt (the father of the American Patrol Method) and used to forever destroy the BSA's status as most popular youth organization in the United States by replacing Hillcourt's Patrol Leader Training with business manager work-group theory. Before PORs, if your son was a talented Patrol Leader he would remain in that role as long as he was the Patrol's best leader. The idea was to have a mature Patrol Leader take his Patrol out for Patrol hikes to work on Advancement and having fun, all without adult supervision. The BSA now suggests that Troops hold elections every six months. The "modern" idea is dumb Patrol activities down to adult-supervised Cub camping so everyone has a chance to learn business work-group theory. If you have only been with the Troop for a short time, why not find a better one? Kudu

A trial date has been set in the federal district court case in which Youthscouts will defend the right of independent scouting groups to exist in the United States and use the terms "scout" and "scouting" to describe programs based on Robert Baden-Powell's original program. http://www.youthscouts.org/news.html The Youthscouts case is NOT just about the BSA's membership polices. The BSA's current monopoly allows it to literally DEFINE what words like "Scout" and "Scouting" mean. The object of BSA training is to systematically destroy Robert Baden-Powell's original program based on the Patrol System, and it is place establish work-group manager theory as the meaning of the "Patrol Method." To get an idea of what American Wood Badge trainers actually teach new Scouters about the Patrol Method these days: 1) Purchase a copy of the course outline of "BSA Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmaster Training" for $12.99: http://tinyurl.com/3lmmmr 2) Turn to the "Patrol Method" session. 3) Look for ANY reference to the "Patrol Method." Except for the fake Baden-Powell quote at the very beginning, the Patrol Method is NEVER mentioned, is it? 4) Look for ANY reference to a "Patrol Leader." There is NO reference to a Patrol Leader, is there? 5) Look for ANY reference to a Patrol of Scouts. There is NO example of a Patrol of Scouts, is there? 6) In fact the "Patrol Method" session is all about the relationship of "adult leadership styles" to the "needs of the group," isn't it? The "Patrol Method" session gives the example of an adult telling a group of Scouts to extinguish the campfire. The adult does NOT work through their Patrol Leader because bypassing Patrol Leaders is the appropriate BSA "adult leadership style" to use with the "needs" of new Scouts. Before Wood Badge fell in love with the work-group theories of Bla H. Bnthy and Kenneth H. Blanchard, all red-blooded American boys loved Scouting. But Scouting has been dumbed-down to the Cub Scout level so that boys can practice work-group theory for their POR rather than leading what the BSA once called a "Real Patrol." The intentional destruction of the Patrol Method by golden parachute experts is a dirty shame. The BSA will be motivated to return to its traditional roots only if it faces competition in the marketplace by YouthScouts, Baden-Powell Scouts, etc. If not then real Scouting will just migrate to these other Scouting associations and leave BSA executives and Wood Badge Course Directors to move boys inside to "sit in front of computer screens side by side with adults of character." Kudu

nolesrule writes: "don't you think it's a bit unscout-like to accuse someone of malicious intent in regards to what may have been simply an incorrect attribution without any shred of evidence?" No. If this thread was about a Scout who cheated on a BSA indoor classroom Merit Badge, it would inspire pages of rants about the values of Scouting. The point here is NOT the "malicious intent" of Birkby. After a while I stopped trying to correct the fake Baden-Powell quotes in printed BSA literature. In fact I LOVE those fake quotes now because they prove my central point: ALL of the BSA executives at National, ALL of the National Committees, and ALL Wood Badge Staffers HATE SCOUTING... ...if you define "Scouting" as the BSA program back when all red-blooded American boys LOVED Scouting. Let me repeat that: Fake Baden-Powell quotes prove that ALL BSA executives, National policy committees, and ALL of the Wood Badge hacks who pawn these national policies off on local volunteers HATE SCOUTING, if you define "Scouting" as the BSA program back when all red-blooded American boys LOVED Scouting. The Scouting that American boys loved was destroyed shortly after Green Bar Bill's retirement when it was dumbed down to the Cub Scout level by adding Position of Responsibility (POR) requirements so that Wood Badge hacks could teach business manager skills to "Junior Leaders," instead of Green Bar Bill's "Patrol Leader Training" course that taught Patrol Leaders how to take their Patrols on hikes and overnights without adult supervision. If even ONE BSA millionaire in Irving Texas had even a PASSING interest in Scouting, he would wonder why Scouting was so popular when Green Bar Bill wrote the Scoutmaster handbooks, and he would curl up with one of Hillcourt's books to see how he did it. The correct quotes are featured PROMINENTLY in these old handbooks. They are impossible to miss. Anyone who reads the old books should recognize the fake Baden-Powell quotes in Birkby's books as being wrong. But BSA millionaires and their Wood Badge Course Directors don't read books from when Scouting was popular. That would be OLD FASHIONED! Old Scouting books don't say anything about business manager skills, now do they? BSA millionaires and Wood Badge hacks don't read Traditional Scouting books, they read business manager books! If an official BSA publication included a fake business manager quote like: You cant talk your way out of what youve behaved yourself into. -- Kenneth H. Blanchard The phones at BSA HQ would ring off the walls!!!! With thousands of Wood Badge Staffers desperately calling to correct the false quote. Because business theory hyped as "leadership" is IMPORTANT! Baden-Powell and Green Bar Bill are NOT important! To a BSA executive (and his Wood Badge Course Directors), Baden-Powell is only good for three things: 1) His Scout Law can be interpreted as moral absolutes (you do NOT need outdoor skills to understand moral absolutes!). 2) A "Patrol" seems similar to a business work-group (business work-group theory is IMPORTANT!) 3) His "we bait our hooks" quote can be used to justify the "future of Scouting" as luring boys indoors to sit in front of computers "side by side with adults of character" Oh, and "Back to Gilwell" is a catchy tune that proves Gilwell was a business work-group camp. You know, TRADITION! The opposite of fake Baden-Powell quotes is the fundamental idea of Traditional Scouting: Rugged outdoor skills used in a Patrol without adult supervision TEACHES VALUES that can NOT be taught in indoor Scout school classrooms or monthly Boy Scout Cub camp. Kudu (This message has been edited by Kudu)

The real problem is that most required BSA Merit Badges are the OPPOSITE of real Scouting, as defined by Baden-Powell (you know, the guy who invented Scouting). His fundamental message is that Scouting a GAME, NOT a game with a "purpose," but a GAME! A game is the OPPOSITE of what he labeled "INSTRUCTION:" Indoor classroom school work. Dyslexia, because it is so common in BOYS, is the PERFECT canary in a coalmine: If a dyslexic boy has problems with a Merit Badge, then it is BAD SCOUTING. Rather than adapting bad Scouting through audio books, we should get rid of the bad Scouting: Merit Badges like Citizenship, Environmental Science, Personal Management, you know: The boring stuff that every red-blooded American boy hates. Because (according to Baden-Powell), a boy is DESIGNED to HATE BORING stuff. And that is how the game of REAL Scouting is designed to work! Kudu

Gold Winger writes: Aren't all positions "made up"?' As opposed to "essential." The Traditional Patrol Method requires the Scoutmaster to train the Patrol's most responsible Scout how to take his Patrol hiking without adult supervision. Patrol overnights are the ultimate "Patrol Hike" (if only 300 feet from the nearest adult on a regular Troop campout). As such a good Patrol Leader is the land equivalent of a "life guard" and far too rare to waste in the position of ASPL or JASM. Kudu

When our very best Eagle Scouts no longer want to be SPL, I encourage them to pick a couple buddies and become a Patrol Leader for the younger Scouts. We encourage our very best Patrol Leaders not to think about POR requirements, but to serve as long as they are their Patrol's best leader. ASPL and JASM are just made-up positions, not used in Baden-Powell's Traditional Scouting because they are a waste of talent in a small Troop. As such they are the perfect face-saving promotion for a useless SPL or Patrol Leader when the Scouts realize the horrible downside of popularity contests Kudu(This message has been edited by Kudu)

Eagle92 writes: "In reference to Green Bar Bill, how do you know he made incorrect quotes?" Green Bar Bill's quotes are correct. He (not Baden-Powell) was the guy who wrote "Scouting is a Game with a Purpose," and he correctly credits Roland Phillips as the author of "The Patrol Method is not ONE method in which Scouting can be carried on. It is the ONLY method!" It was only AFTER the BSA turned its back on Green Bar Bill and replaced his "how to plan and lead a Patrol Hike" with junk leadership formulas like "Understanding the Characteristics and Needs of the Group and Its Members" that BSA authors started pretending that they had read Baden-Powell. About 12 years ago I started alerting every BSA executive I met about the errors, but it was always somebody else's job. They usually gave me that "somebody else's" phone number, but my follow-up calls were never returned. The director of the historical records department at national headquarters actually asked me who "Baden-Powell" was! Kudu

nolesrule writes: 'So, the BSA does have a solid case involving "scouts" as a youth organization.' As I understand it, the YouthScouts' point is that OTHER American youth organizations based on Baden-Powell's program were ALREADY using the generic term "Scouts" BEFORE the BSA was invented. The BSA's interpretation (the Charter does not actually specify a monopoly on the word "Scout") is like saying that Congress can decide which cab company is the best cab company and then grant it a monopoly on generic words such as "Taxi" and "Cab" already in common use. Kudu

GaHillBilly writes: "Kudu, do you have documentation of the faked quotes?" You should purchase a copy of the two-volume third edition of the Handbook for Scoutmasters. Aphorisms falsely attributed to Baden-Powell such as "Scouting is a Game with a Purpose" (William Hillcourt) and "The Patrol Method is not ONE method in which Scouting can be carried on. It is the ONLY method!" (Roland Phillips) are featured prominently in the third edition, impossible to miss if Bob Birkby, or anyone else at BSA HQ (or any Wood Badge Course Director) had ever skimmed through the BSA's own publications. Baden-Powell never used the term "Patrol Method." Scans of the origin of "A Game with a Purpose" can be found at The Inquiry Net: http://inquiry.net/ideals/scouting_game_purpose.htm William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt's third edition of Handbook for Scoutmasters is the most comprehensive book about Scouting ever written. It is 944 pages longer than the current watered-down edition! This is the book to buy if you want to understand American Scouting. You can find used copies for less than $10 per volume at AddAll. See: http://tinyurl.com/5sjvz3 IMPORTANT: To find the correct edition, look for "Volume 1" or "Volume 2" in the description, starting on "page 2" at the above URL! The later 1940s printings of the 3rd edition include the Patrol Leader Training course, "Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol": http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm Kudu

"If nothing else, take some books to have autographed" Yeah, maybe Bob Birkby will forge B-P's signature under the fake Baden-Powell quotes that he made up for his official BSA publications. Ask him if young Boy Scouts should follow his example on their term papers by making up phony quotes to give readers the false impression that they actually read the material. "Bob was, I believe, also the author of the staff guide for 21st Century Wood Badge...and may have been author of NYLT staff guide." So the same guy who sets the example for young Boy Scouts on how to lie and cheat LITERALLY "wrote the book" on how to destroy the Patrol Method by removing leadership based on outdoor skills from Wood Badge and Patrol Leader training and replacing it with pop "state-of-the-art one minute manger" techniques that glorify the golden parachute crowd by hyping millionaire CEOs as great "leaders." "We've had CEOs on our board say they want to send their people to Wood Badge, our adult leader training program, because we use state-of-the-art techniques...You can teach a kid about character and leadership using aerospace and computers. The secret is to get them side by side with adults of character" (Robert Mazzuca, Chief Scout Executive). Kudu

BulldogBlitz writes: "swimming with concrete shoes is just as an important skill to learn as tomahawk throwing, maybe that should be a side by side event." "Important skill"? Scouting is a GAME! A game for red-blooded American boys who (despite the claims of modernists) are excited by exactly the same things that excited their great-grandfathers: the untamed wild, fire, knives, guns, archery, outdoor cooking, and learning how to be a hero. Few of the things that attract boys to Scouting were "important skills" in 1908, just as swinging clubs and throwing balls in other boys' games are not "important skills" in today's world either. Tomahawk throwing was taught by the BSA's founders long before the BSA was incorporated; before indoor classroom Merit Badges were introduced; before "one minute manger" skills replaced Scoutcraft skills as the basis of Patrol leadership; and before the fake Baden-Powell quote "Scouting is a Game with a Purpose" was invented to justify the continued dumbing down of Scouting since 1972. Kudu

rdcrisco writes: "I know this is a broad topic, but I really want to get training and also provide information to other leaders to become more educated on scouting and outside adventures (Camping, Hiking)." The most comprehensive book about Scouting ever written is William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt's third edition of Handbook for Scoutmasters. The book is 944 pages longer than the current watered-down edition! This is still the book to buy if you want to understand how the BSA expected Scoutmasters to train Patrol Leaders how to run what the BSA defined as a "Real Patrol" using outdoor hiking and camping Scoutcraft adventure skills rather than "one minute manger" business formulas. You can find used copies for less than $10 per volume at AddAll. See: http://tinyurl.com/5sjvz3 IMPORTANT: To find the correct edition, look for "Volume 1" or "Volume 2" in the description, starting on "page 2" of the above URL! The later 1940s printings of the 3rd edition include the Patrol Leader Training course, "Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol": http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm Kudu

When Baden-Powell first wrote Scouting for Boys in 1908, his program was designed to be distributed freely for use by existing youth organizations like the YMCA and the Boys' Brigade. By 1910 a half-dozen such organizations were already taking steps to establish national Scouting associations in the United States, including William R. Hearst's "American Boy Scout" (later the "United States Boy Scout"); the National Highway Protection Association's "Boy Scouts of the United States;" "The Peace Scouts of California;" the "National Scouts of America," formed by a military school in Manlius, NY; and "The YMCA Scouts" Thus words such as "Scouts," "Scouting," "Tenderfoot," "Second Class," "First Class," etc. that had first appeared in Scouting for Boys were already in the public domain and commonly used in the context of Scouting by other American Scouting associations BEFORE the BSA first discovered them. On the other hand, terms such as "Star," "Life," "Eagle," etc. invented by the BSA after 1910 are understood by the YouthScouts and other competitors to be protected trademarks. The YouthScout's challenge is to the interpretation of the BSA's Congressional Charter, which is commonly believed to protect the BSA's program against competition in the marketplace by international groups like the UK's Baden-Powell Scouts Association that seek to establish an American Scouting program based on Baden-Powell's significantly more demanding program. The BSA did attempt to sue the GSUSA to prevent girls from using the term "Scouts," but apparently abandoned this effort. See: http://www.inquiry.net/adult/bsa_vs_gsusa.htm For those who are interested in the history of the interpretation of the BSA's Congressional Charter (beyond the moralistic reasoning that is typical of Internet discussions such as these), some of the pdf files at the following YouthScouts URL contain a surprisingly detailed history of Scouting in the United States: http://www.youthscouts.org/districtcourt.html Kudu

Just call your Council's office and ask which professional is the contact person for this District event. After you satisfy yourself and your Troop's Committee that Traditional Scouting ax throwing contests do NOT violate any BSA policy, a complete "how to do it" guide (including how to make traditional targets) by Dan Beard himself can be found at The Inquiry Net: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/skills/beard/throw_tomahawk.htm Another guide by Peter McLaren (distributed by the Plumb Company) includes an early photograph of the "Bury the Axe in the War Post Ceremony" at Dan Beard's camp. This guide can also be found at The Inquiry Net: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/skills/axe/axe_throwing.htm Get used to the fact that for every Traditional Scouting activity that once made Boy Scouting a challenging adventure and a pure delight for red-blooded American boys, there is a committee of adults somewhere that tries to use "safety" to turn Boy Scouts into Cub Scouts! Kudu(This message has been edited by kudu)

jtswestark writes: "So who is supposed to buy the tents then?" Older Scouts who have caught the backpacking bug usually purchase more expensive tents with the money they earn from part-time jobs and Troop fund-raisers (after they have raised enough to pay for summer camp). The parents, grandparents, aunts, or uncles often buy tents for the youngest Scouts as presents, or just give them a tent that has been gathering dust for years. Under our optional equipment list (which we labeled "Wish List for Birthdays, Christmas") we included: "___ SMALL '3 MAN' DOME TENT -- WE NEED THEM! (When buying new, the outer rain cover should come all the way down to the ground. Costs about $50 on sale)" We recruit our Scouts in the local public school in September, by which time tents are deeply discounted and relatives are already thinking of Christmas presents. Tents as gifts are surprisingly popular with very poor families in which a boy might be embarrassed to invite his friends from school to his house in the projects. A tent is a Scout's home away from home. It may be the only part of his life over which he has control. Pride of ownership is THE natural way to teach responsibility, far sweeter to a Scout than the customary bellowing and guilt-tripping over "values" that so often accompanies the imposed socialism in Troops that do not allow Patrols to use their own tents. An extra advantage of any $50 Coleman or Ozark Trails tent is that the "bathtub" bottom keeps an inexperienced Scout much drier than a Eureka Timberline. Inexpensive dome tents also shed snow well. If you are careful, even cheap poles will not snap while setting them up in below-zero weather. We have a dozen Troop-owned Eureka Timberlines available if needed, but most of our Patrols end up with a pile of unused personal tents stacked up like firewood after they find a remote Patrol area on Friday night and decide how many tents they want to set up. Kudu

"That's my pet peeve and my scouts often hear me bellowing on a campout 'OPEN BOTH ZIPPERS!!!'." Yeah, ADULT bellowing. If not over Eureka TROOP tent zippers, then ADULT bellowing over TROOP tents not cleaned out, or ADULT bellowing over TROOP tents taken home not aired out, or ADULT bellowing over TROOP tents taken home and not brought back, or ADULT bellowing over TROOP tents brought back with broken parts not reported. The cost of TROOP tents gives a Committee of ADULTS a sense of purpose in drafting TROOP by-laws to protect the TROOP's investment, and usually ADULT rules against Scouts using their own tents for various ADULTY reasons. TROOP tents also offer unlimited opportunities for ADULT moralizing over "values" like "responsibility," be it that of individual Scouts or of the TROOP Quartermaster. TROOP tents offer a powerful justification for sub-par Patrols: ADULTS must keep the TROOP close together so that ADULTS can keep an ADULT eye on the TROOP tents and bellow over the head of any six-month-wonder Patrol Leader in time to protect the TROOP investment. And doesn't a TROOP look really nice to other ADULTS when the identical tents of the TROOP'S sub-par Patrols are laid out neatly in a nice tight ADULT-pleasing grid? :-/ Nothing bellows TROOP METHOD louder than TROOP tents. Kudu