Kudu

BadenP, Why don't you reword your censored post and try again? Kudu

The most detailed explanation that I have ever read is William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt's "Troop Meetings," see: http://inquiry.net/patrol/troop/index.htm This has dozens of "new ideas" that you will not find in any of the materials mentioned so far. Kudu

SHIRTS 1 Centennial short sleeve 1 Centennial long sleeve 1 BSA nylon "Action" short sleeve 3 100% cotton Oscar de la Renta short sleeve 1 100% cotton Oscar de la Renta long sleeve 3 poly-blend Oscar de la Renta short sleeve 1 poly-blend Oscar de la Renta long sleeve The above shirts mostly have only Council strip, unit number, position patch, and epaulet tabs, following the "less is more" advice of the BSA senior executive in charge of Boy Scout Training (prompted by my wearing one of my "prototype" breathable nylon Uniforms to a week long national training event in 1997). All have been converted to the new color patches (praise be to BSA Supply Division that they found a loop hole around the national Uniform Committee and FINALLY got the red out). 3 "prototype Centennial" uniform shirts (off-the-shelf tan outdoor shirts to which I sewed BSA buttons and patches) to show how I thought the BSA Uniform should be designed for use in high adventure activities. The shirt that I wore in 1997 was a nicely designed REI breathable nylon model with 20" X 8" of vent mesh across the back between the shoulders, covered by a flap. 1 short sleeve Troop "Class B" 1 long sleeve Troop "Class B" 6 (approximately) assorted beat-up old poly-blend Oscar de la Renta shirts that I mistakenly left up north in storage. Since I "got religion" from that senior BSA executive, I now believe that these have WAY too many patches, but unfortunately being bad at sewing I glued them in place so I could sew them on without them moving, so the patches now cover glue stains. I use old shirts for regular camping and even for cooking and service projects because the whole point of the old-school Uniform Method is that the design of the full "Class A" uniform should be such that adults can wear it AT ALL TIMES (including high adventure), with no excuses. The Troop I now serve wears "Class B" Troop Shirts to three weekly meetings a month and on campouts, etc. I did that the first calendar year, but I have started wearing "Class A" shirts. Last night I noticed that one of the other Scouters wore his too. PANTS 1 new pair Switchbacks 1 old-style first generation Switchbacks which, like SR540Beaver, I hate with a passion (but wore faithfully because I had campaigned for them for more than a decade). 3 pair Oscar de la Renta vintage cargo pocket shorts 3 pair Oscar de la Renta vintage cargo pocket long pants, including two pairs never hemmed or worn. The later were purchased just before my Scouts convinced me that my strict Wood Badge "official BSA pants only" policy was misguided, and I never wore official BSA pants again (until our side won with the introduction of the Switchbacks) 18 pair (approximately) "prototype Switchbacks" of all brands and materials from the very early high end EMS and REI models to the cheapest pairs that my Scouts could find at budget department stores. A couple of our Troop's choices back in the 1990s can be found at my Website's very first page: http://inquiry.net/uniforms/bdu.htm Kudu

GKlose writes: "So, with this opportunity you have -- is this as an new adult leader in that troop, or is it as a UC or something like that?" I am an Assistant Scoutmaster now, and a training Commissioner. GKlose writes: "How will you, or do you, help steer the ingrained culture in the right direction?" I don't have any practical advice for you. I have been with my new Troop for a calendar year but beyond positive feedback when appropriate (they do cook by Patrols, for instance), I just waited for an opportunity to bring up the topic. Finally, before the thorns and roses session at the campout this weekend one of the visiting "old-school" dads asked me why the Scouts all camp together rather than in separate Patrol areas. Patrol meals are at the heart of the Patrol Method. You do not find the Patrol Method at most summer camps because of dining halls. Likewise in our case the physical weight of our Patrol boxes dictates that they be set up a few feet from the Troop trailer, so the Scouts tend to group their tents around the Troop trailer. Responding to the dad's earlier question, I suggested to the group that because we now have more Patrols than Patrol boxes, perhaps we should buy a few $5 plastic tote bins and a good table, and allow an "Honor Patrol" (a Patrol that proves to be the most mature), to camp a little further from the rest of the Troop, at least in good weather. I can tell you how a Scoutmaster can make a game out getting to the Patrol Method no matter from where he is starting, but the Scoutmaster has to consider it a priority. As a ASM my job is to do what the SM wants done in the way he wants me to do it. He put me in charge of the first year program which I enjoy a lot, and now I'm also heading up the Troop's first backpacking trip since most of the current boys have been Scouts. As point man on the backpacking trip I might be able to facilitate some of those "small, subtle steps in moving the troop in the right direction" by arranging the Patrols around my backpacking stoves rather than a central cooking area. GKlose writes: "But, Kudu, I think you hit the key phrase: "if the adults can stand it"...what if the adults don't know any better, or in fact are rather unwitting in interfering in the process." How are they supposed to learn? This Troop takes training seriously, they require it of all Scouters, and even the key Committee Members take the Scoutmaster training in addition to Committee training. However, when the last three of our Scouters attended Scoutmaster/ASM-specific training, I Staffed the Patrol Method session and unfortunately I always do Council-level training strictly by the book. I do regret that now. As you may know, Patrols and Patrol Leaders have been cut from the Patrol Method session. That is why many adults are unwitting about what the Patrol Method is and how it is supposed to work on a practical level even though they HAVE been to training. Kudu

ozemu writes: "In our case getting Scouts has never really been a problem. It's always been about adults. The few who take to it with enthusiasm end up exhausted because they do not get assistants who will take any responsibility. I am sure this is quite common." Yes. Some parents are usually willing to hang out during weekly indoor meetings, but sometimes even finding two-deep leadership on campouts while resurrecting a "Troop in Trouble" can be a significant problem. The best source I found was in the retired military veteran uncles or grandfathers of fatherless boys with discipline problems at school. I would ask the mother if she had such a family member (or other significant role model) who would be willing to step in one weekend a month to make a difference in her son's life. Ex-military usually have the necessary outdoor skills and can easily grasp the idea of a "chain of command" with the SPL ("Troop Leader") in charge IF indeed you have appointed or guided the Troop to select their most competent "top dog" boy leader. On the other hand, they can have little patience if the SPL is a bumbling popularity contest winner and everything is out of control. Kudu

"Anyone have a good news story about Troops coming back from the grave? Need a bit of encouragement right now." I brought a few back from the grave. Up here finding Scouts is easy if you know someone in a local school that can hook you up with an auditorium during school hours and then bring all of the sixth grade boys in from their physical education classes. See: http://inquiry.net/adult/recruiting.htm I don't know how things work down-under, but this is also the way to find all of the boys who dropped out of Cub Scouts because it is so boring. Usually 2/3 of them want to join Boy Scouts if you describe Scouting the way Baden-Powell did. Unfortunately most of their parents will not allow them to join. You could probably overcome parental resistance if you sold them on stuff that boys really hate, like indoor Eagle Scout, business manager theory, and learning how to make "ethical choices." But then you are stuck with those parents So out of 60 sixth-graders, 45 will sign up and 15 actually register. This does not include the boys who are already Boy Scouts, of course. Kudu

I have that "opportunity" now with the Scout Troop in my new neighborhood: a highly successful "mega-Troop" with good older-boy retention, but adult-run. The Patrol Method depends on some kind of ADVENTURE because form follows function. Patrol Hikes (Hike Themes as entertainment) are a place to start. If the adults can stand it, separate the Patrols from each other on monthly Troop campouts as Baden-Powell recommended. Kudu

Because kittle may want to have something to read, so as to learn in great depth about the Boy Scout program with her spare time if the resource camp program is boy-led. What do you have to gain by discouraging her from that? Kudu

SR540Beaver writes: "Yes kittle, the volume Kudu mentions is an excellent resource for a Scoutmaster if that is the training you are seeking...geared specifically towards training Scoutmasters to run a troop." I doubt if kittle wants to be a Scoutmaster. The two volumes are very useful to ANYONE connected with the Boy Scout program in ANY way, including members of Troop and Council committees who make decisions about money. They explain how the Patrol Method works when every American boy actually wants to be a Boy Scout. Because the purpose of the Patrol Method is to offer inexpensive ADVENTURE on a monthly basis. This will become very important in the coming years as the BSA encourages Scout camps to "reinvent Scouting" by investing hundreds of thousands of dollars per Council to build "family camping centers," as in the demonstration project at Camp Thunder, Georgia. Does Scouting really need those massive family tent platforms with wrap-around porches, complete with rocking chairs? I'm sure that "leadership experts" will be easily convinced, but not those who understand how the Patrol Method is supposed to work. Kudu

Once again I stand corrected by Brent I really spaced on that one, since in the past I have pointed out that Patrol elections were a legacy of the period when the BSA instructed Scoutmasters not to allow Patrol Leaders to make decisions. When Hillcourt was a Patrol Leader and then a Scoutmaster in Denmark he would not have experienced Patrol elections because they were not part of Baden-Powell's Scouting. I should have written that it was books about Baden-Powell's program in the rest of the world that did not force regular elections on Patrols. For those like Brent who like to verify, here is the 1938 Canadian version of Baden-Powell's Policy, Organisation, & Rules (PO&R): http://www.scoutscan.com/history/scoutbook_150dpi.pdf We never had regular elections when I was a Scout, nor in our Troop when I was a Scoutmaster up north. When a Patrol Leader burns out or can not camp because of sports, the Patrol just picks a new one. When a Patrol Leader has real responsibilities, he usually does not try to cling to the position just to save face. I used to find out about a Patrol election only when a Scout told me that he needed a Patrol Leader patch. In Troops like Brent's where Patrols use the Patrol Method at summer camp and participate in high adventure activities, Patrol Leaders serve an actual function. Such Patrols tend to pick more wisely, especially if the adult leaders stress that the priority is NOT rapid six month turn-over for the sake of allowing others to get POR "credit." In the "old books" that Mafaking cites, the business of a Patrol was Patrol Hikes (these were entertainment, with each one based on what were called "hike themes") and Patrol Overnights. Controlled risk. Kudu

kittle writes: "He also wants me to attend as an adult leader for our Troop." If you plan to someday attend Wood Badge to train for the Boy Scout program, consider buying a copy of the third edition of Handbook for Scoutmasters to read this summer. At more than 1,100 pages it is the most comprehensive guide to the Boy Scout program ever written. When you eventually do attend Wood Badge, you will be more knowledgeable on the Patrol Method and other Scouting subjects than the Staffers and the course director. Take the time to read Green Bar Bill. His Scoutmaster handbooks were once the envy of the world. You can find used copies of the third edition for less than $10 per volume at AddAll. See: http://tinyurl.com/5sjvz3 IMPORTANT: To find the correct edition, look for "Volume 1" or "Volume 2" in the description, starting on "page 2" of the above URL! Kudu

BDPT00 writes: I'll share one of my biggest pet peeves. I've seen far too often, Scouts leading a flag ceremony in a church, and they say, "Please remove all non-Scouting hats." Why in the world would someone be wearing a hat in a church? Why aren't we instead just teaching our Scouts (and our adults) to remove their hats when they enter a building? Because manners are entirely arbitrary and change over time even within the same culture. The basic function of manners is to avoid offending other people, not to use them as an excuse to be a jerk as for instance in most summer camp dinning halls these days (which should serve as an incentive for Scouts to use the Patrol Method at summer camp and not have adults do their cooking). Clearly from the drawings and photographs in the older BSA handbooks back when our culture was FAR more conservative than now, Scouts were expected to wear Scout hats in churches, not just for formal ceremonies as the current insignia guide nitwits seem to think. Kudu Scout hats indoors: http://inquiry.net/uniforms/hats/inside.htm

Mafaking writes: "They way the old books are written it seems that all you had to do was give the scouts a patrol flag, and a place to camp and the patrol method magically happened. Now its seems to be one of the hardest parts of the program to develop." The problem is not ad hoc Patrols. The problem is ad hoc Patrol LEADERS. We act as if replacing Patrol Leaders on a regular basis is normal. Mafaking writes: "Its appears forced on the youths by the adults. The concept is foreign by today's practices." The old books do not force regular elections on Patrols. The idea was to find the Patrol's BEST leader and to stick with HIM. You will not find regular elections in the old books. Mafaking writes: "Train: we train" That is not true. We did away with position-specific Patrol Leader Training in 1972. THIS is position-specific Patrol Leader Training: http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm Mafaking writes: "Provide opportunities: We provide opportunities. Give them room to lead: OK we do that" No we don't. In the old books, "room to lead" was physical room. Patrol Leader Training taught Patrol Leaders how to run Patrol Hikes and Patrol Overnights (which were defined as extended Patrol Hikes) without adult supervision. Physical room is measured in distance. Given the "realities of today's society" (real or not) the easiest way to do that is to physically separate the Patrols 30 to 300 feet on monthly Troop campouts, with the actual distance from the adults determined by the competency of the Patrols. When you separate the Patrols from each other, everything else follows. This is NOT about keeping adults out of the way, it is about adding simple and inexpensive ADVENTURE to routine monthly Troop campouts. Yes, separate Patrol Campsites is "adventure," especially after dark! Mafaking writes: "Still, the patrol method is just not biting into the road." We no longer teach the Patrol Method, we just use the words. Get a copy of the Scoutmaster/ASM specific training course outline and take the time to actually read the Patrol Method session. See if you find any mention of the Patrol Method. The entire session insists that there is NO difference between a Patrol and a Troop, and it NEVER mentions a Patrol Leader. BrentAllen writes: "I bust on Kudu from time to time, mainly because of his derogatory tone, but I will give him credit for turning me onto the 3rd edition of the SM HB. I have attended WB and staffed it twice, but I have learned much more about Patrol Method from reading these two volumes." I agree with Brent, the Patrol Method is not that hard. It is a boy's game. Once he sees an actual example of it, a good Patrol Leader will grasp the idea right away. You only need one good Patrol Leader at first. The other Patrols will get the idea from watching his Patrol and try to compete. Take the time to read Green Bar Bill. His Scoutmaster handbooks were once the envy of the world. You can find used copies of the third edition for less than $10 per volume at AddAll. See: http://tinyurl.com/5sjvz3 IMPORTANT: To find the correct edition, look for "Volume 1" or "Volume 2" in the description, starting on "page 2" of the above URL! BrentAllen writes: "I picked up a 1952 copy of Boy Scout Games recently. I showed it to my son and some of the other Scouts. I didn't think I was going to get it back. They love the games described in that book!" Have they discovered Wide Games beyond "Manhunt" yet? Some of them are great for building anticipation of Patrol competition for the next campout. In Troops where Scouts do not read try picking a few games in advance and at a PLC meeting explain how they work. Like adults, most Scouts do NOT read. http://inquiry.net/outdoor/games/wide/index.htm Kudu (This message has been edited by kudu)

Here is my collection of 35 photographs and drawings from official Boy Scouts of America handbooks showing Scouts wearing hats indoors, back in the days when society was a lot more formal: http://inquiry.net/uniforms/hats/inside.htm Kudu

jblake47 writes: "I have been practicing the policy of patrol QM's, Patrol Instructors, Patrol Scribes, etc. getting credit for the job being done on a patrol level. The boys in the Troop Officer Corps obviously get credit for POR, but in my estimation of the work being done, so do the patrol POR's. At this point the only boys not getting POR credit are the APL, the patrol Treasurer, Hikemaster, Grubmaster, etc. Those where there is nothing specifically defined in the literature. I have often thought that with the amount of work the Grubmaster does for his patrol, it's a shame he gets no credit for it. But then one's gotta eat either way. What's your take on this practice? " Stosh, I see "credit" for PORs as the second most destructive force in American Scouting, so I try not to talk about it with my Scouts. The MOST destructive force, of course, is the emphasis on earning Eagle. Because it is an indoor award I try not to talk about that either. So in our Troop the only Scouts who were concerned with earning Eagle were the 1) natural leaders, and 2) former Cub Scouts who happen to cross over into our Troop (our "feeder pack" folded as the neighborhood changed). The natural leaders are usually gifted with above average IQs and adult verbal skills. Eagle is easy for them because Eagle Scout is all about homework Merit Badges, "leadership," and the "values" of the adult leaders that Scouts happen to get stuck with. Because they are natural leaders, POR credit is never an issue: They continue to serve as Patrol Leader year after year after year, because that (rather than sports, band, or part time jobs) is what they WANT to do for fun, serving is their PRIORITY in life. In that they are similar to good adult Scouters. Our Eagle-bound former Cub Scouts (who stuck with the scissors and paste long enough to earn Arrow of Light) are often motivated by pressure from their parents. They usually value sports, band, martial arts, etc. higher than Scouts. So these are the only boys for whom "POR credit" is an issue. With them I use Scoutmaster Conferences to figure out what their schedules are like for the next six months and together we figure out where their particular talents would be most useful to the others. This can be any "Troop Method" position such as Instructor, Guide, etc. Because I view POR "credit" as evil, I do not place a higher value on useful PORs if a Scout is only qualified for mostly bogus positions such as Chaplain Aid, Librarian, Bugler, etc. (Jazz band members can make VERY entertaining Troop Buglers!). Because the Troop is so old, we have had Historians perform valuable service by digitalizing all the old photos, newspaper clippings, interesting historical records, etc. So I go by personality rather than the usual assumption that most "positions" are all that important. For instance, if a bad leader manages to get elected as Patrol Leader, then the SPL can get the Patrol out of their mess by promoting the bad PL to the basically useless position of ASPL after the Patrol agrees with the SPL on a good PL. In Baden-Powell's understanding of Scouting, a Scout had to keep proficient at his "Proficiency Badges" to continue to wear them. "Positions" like Quartermaster could be filled by whoever felt like acting as Quartermaster any given month. The Patrol Leaders in Council generally approved the equivalent of "blue cards" only when a Scout contributed more to other Scouts' advancement than to his own. Regarding Patrol Positions: 1) Patrol Grubmasters: In our Troop they were mostly fat latchkey kids who tended to be VERY good cooks. That was their passion. They were seldom interested in advancing beyond First Class except for cherry-picking the fun parts of OUTDOOR Merit Badges, which I DO encourage them to do. 2) Patrol Scribes: Patrol Leaders usually handled the money and kept notes when needed. If they wanted to delegate they could, but it never became a POR issue. 3) Patrol Hikemaster: This is a very important function in old-school Scouting because the whole point of Scouting is that Patrol Hikes are ENTERTAINMENT. The emphasis is NOT on the distance, but on the THEME. Most of our hikes took place on monthly campouts so this kind of thing was batted around by the Patrol Leaders in PLC Meetings. 4) Assistant Patrol Leader: Usually the APL is the second most responsible Scout in the Patrol, so he often takes on other responsibilities as well: Patrol Scribe, Patrol Quartermaster, etc. 5) Patrol Cheermaster: Scouting is ENTERTAINMENT. Period. Like Hikemaster and Grubmaster, no Scouts contribute more to Troop retention numbers than good class clowns! On one backpacking trip our District Commissioner had the Scouts rolling on the ground, drooling in the dirt at the campfire, laughing at his jokes as he read from his PDA and strummed his backpacking guitar for effect. So the next time we set off for the backwoods, when he asked me if he should bring anything extra, I told him to refresh his PDA. Well this time his act fell flat and one of the Scouts filled an awkward silence with a line from "Monty Python and the Holy Grail." Unexpectedly, another Scout continued on with the next lines from the scene. It turned out that they had both memorized long 20 minute sections from the movie, and the campfire turned into extended Campfire Stunt dialogues (in Scouting, a "stunt" is an extended "skit," but based more on plays than on puns and put-down humor). Not to be outdone, it turned out that some of our socially conservative Scouts had memorized lonnngggg stretches of redneck HBO comedy specials, which turned into extended campfire monologues with new Scouts jumping in to out-do the others. Who knew that "modern 21st century boys" memorize stuff? So to answer your original question, if POR "credit" is ever an issue for a Scout who does not have an official Troop Method position, you can ALWAYS work out a "Scoutmaster-assigned leadership project," which is a basically a wild-card that CONVERTS ANY SERVICE into officially acceptable POR credit. Kudu (This message has been edited by kudu)

"Funny until you come to the realization that Kudu never passes up an opportunity to denegrate the BSA, the current program or Wood Badge" By definition the "current program" is just a phase, and Wood Badge is a fickle follower of fashion. To put things in perspective, only twelve years ago Wood Badge Internet readers used to call my Council's office to report that our Troop wore nylon zip-off cargo pants, experimented with breathable nylon Scout shirts, and recommended that we eliminate clown-colored patches! Holders of the new "one minute manager" Wood Badge are so lazy in comparison. Maybe its all that dining hall food they eat now, rather than cooking like real Patrols! Kudu

Scouter760 writes: "We have a cabin camp out next weekend. The webelos crossed over sooner than originally expected and put our numbers over what we were allowed in the cabin. So, it's the first time I can remember us having to limit a camp-out. We are not a huge troop though. Boys need opportunities for camping, and I would hate to have to limit it every month. That just doesn't make sense to me." We always made an adventure out of February crossovers by having the brand-new Scouts get their Tenderfoot tent camping requirement out of the way in the snow. We required them each to bring two (2) closed-cell camper mats ($7 each at Walmart) plus a couple of extra blankets each. They kept everything in the warm cabin until bedtime, when we helped them layer the mats on the tent floors. They slept in loose warm clothing plus a dry hat and a hoodie, at least three to each tent with the smallest Scout in the middle. Depending on how far below freezing the conditions are, one to six of the blankets can be draped over ALL THREE (3) sleeping bags. Our lazy but rugged Patrols preferred to sleep in lean-tos rather than inside a crowded cabin with the adults, thereby eliminating the hassel of tents. Everybody cooked and ate in the cabin. Kudu

SR540Beaver, It is YOU that should take your personal attacks and your hatred of Scouting's traditional values elsewhere. There was absolutely nothing constructive in your comment. Kudu

Wood Badge, the Uniform Police of Leadership Development, really should do more to honor camp kitchen staffs, without whom it would be impossible to lure Scouts indoors away from the Patrol Method to sit side by side over meals cooked by adults of character. Kudu

Welcome to the forums, True Believer! Your nickname is the perfect embodiment of the two-edged sword of "Boy Led." On one edge of the sword, if you want to get to a place where your Scouts never hear an adult voice at weekly meetings from 7 PM until the Scoutmaster Minute at 8:25, then you MUST be a "True Believer" when everyone around you says that your particular group of boys is NOT really capable of running the Troop. BUT There is NOTHING SWEETER than pulling into a Camporee and watching all the yelling adults in the surrounding campsites steal glances at your Junior Leaders as they themselves set up the campsite while their quiet adult leaders sit and drink coffee. Nothing sweeter! ON THE OTHER HAND, the term "True Believer" sometimes describes a person who ignores his own experience because he believes in some official theory that is just not true. That is the other edge of the sword. For instance, the "Patrol System" of Baden-Powell and the "Patrol Method" of the BSA's "Green Bar Bill" did NOT include regular elections! The central idea in both systems was to stick with the Patrol Leaders who had the most talent. If you are honest with yourself, I think you will agree that boys who could actually run your Troop are probably as rare as a good Little League pitcher. Think back to when you were a kid. What a wonderful world it was if your pitcher could strike out most of an opposing team (and if your best relief pitcher did not stink too bad). If your team had TWO great pitchers, then you were going to be on national TV in August! Roughly the same ratio exists in Boy Scout Troops. If you are lucky you have ONE really gifted Boy Leader. The trick is to find him. In an adult-run Troop, he is usually one of the trouble-makers, so most adults will do everything in their power to discourage him. But as Baden-Powell wrote: "One of our methods in the Scout movement for taming a hooligan is to appoint him head of a Patrol. He has all the necessary initiative, the spirit and the magnetism for leadership, and when responsibility is thus put upon him it gives him the outlet he needs for his exuberance of activity, but gives it in a right direction." I look for 1) Above average IQ, 2) A love of camping to the point of arranging his other interests so they do not conflict with monthly campouts, 3) A natural sense of fairness that can be described as Scout Law, 4) a bearing that discourages other Scouts from intimidating him when adults are not around. The trick is to follow Baden-Powell and Green Bar Bill's advice and find a way to get him into a Patrol Leader position. Once you have ONE real leader in the position of Patrol Leader in an adult-led Troop, and then you start to defer to him as much as possible. The other Patrol Leaders will notice and start to compete with him and you will have some REAL Patrols. Scouting is not as complicated as some people think it is. Boys figure it out right away if they have one example to follow. To move from Boy Led Troop to Boy Led Patrols, you must physically spread those Patrols apart at monthly campouts, with the most competent Patrols camping the furthest away from the adults. You will hear many different and opposing "True Believer" theories here because you can get to different flavors of "Boy Led" through a number of different paths. As an "old-school" true believer, I recommend the most comprehensive book about Scouting ever written: William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt's third edition of Handbook for Scoutmasters. The book is 944 pages longer than the current watered-down edition! This is the book to buy if you want to understand how the BSA expected Scoutmasters to train Patrol Leaders how to run what the BSA defined as a "Real Patrol" using outdoor hiking and camping Scoutcraft adventure skills rather than "one minute manger" business formulas. You can find used copies for less than $10 per volume at AddAll. See: http://tinyurl.com/5sjvz3 IMPORTANT: To find the correct edition, look for "Volume 1" or "Volume 2" in the description, starting on "page 2" of the above URL! The later 1940s printings of the 3rd edition include the Patrol Leader Training course, "Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol": http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm

The BSA has NO official rule ANYWHERE that prohibits multiple Troop Quartermasters, just as the BSA does not prohibit multiple Assistant SPLs (ASPL). If you actually use the Patrol Method the way that Green Bar Bill and Baden-Powell practiced it, then you know that a good Patrol Quartermaster works as hard as the Patrol Leader before, during, and AFTER a campout. Such QMs should be granted Troop Quartermaster status with a patch and POR credit. Remember that the Troop Method, in which only TROOP positions earn POR credit, was designed by office management experts who most likely never actually used the Patrol Method. The BSA has not changed the OFFICIAL RULES to prohibit the "Creative" adaptation of their "21st century" theory to the Patrol Method of previous official BSA publications printed before PORs were invented. Kudu

LisaBob writes: "You know that "train them, trust them, let them lead" phrase? What do you do when you have adults who just don't seem willing to follow through on the 2nd and 3rd parts of it?" Well Lisa, you have gotten lax about prefacing your threads with the disclaimer that you do not want to hear about Scouting when it actually WAS boy-led, so let me point out the OBVIOUS The aphorism "Train em, Trust em, Let em Lead!" is attributed to William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt. When he says "Train 'em" he is talking about HIS training. You know, his PATROL LEADER TRAINING course which was destroyed when Leadership Development was invented in 1972. So the OBVIOUS answer to your question is that if you limit your Patrol Leaders to the official training, then you have NOT trained your Patrol Leaders to the standard of the man who invented the phrase that you quote. The first part of the equation is missing! The GOAL of his "Patrol Leader Training" is to train Patrol Leaders how to take their Patrol on Patrol Hikes WITHOUT adult supervision. BUT the goal of "Troop Leader Training" is to teach generic "Troop Leaders" how to "make ethical and moral choices." The METHOD of his "Patrol Leader Training" is to plan a Patrol Hike and then go on a Patrol Hike with the Scoutmaster, plan a Patrol Overnight (an extended Patrol Hike) and then GO on a Patrol Overnight with the Scoutmaster. Then take it home to your Patrol and YOU, the Patrol Leader, act like your Scoutmaster did. BUT the method of "Troop Leader Training" is to teach junk manager theory like "Explain, Demonstrate, Guide, Enable." That is why the fake solution to every problem with adults is to "Ask him or her to share a cup of coffee." Scouting sounds complicated only because we have boldly substituted values and abstract ideas for REAL leadership based on SCOUTCRAFT SKILLS. A Scout should be trained BEFORE you "trust 'em." And I mean trained old-school. The same goes for adult training, of course. The "PATROL METHOD" SESSION of Scoutmaster & ASM position-specific training does not even MENTION a Patrol Leader, and it never mentions a Patrol without the constant drumbeat that a Patrol is the SAME as a Troop and/or any other group, as in "patrol/troop/group." So really your question should be, "What do you do when you have adults who just don't seem willing to follow through on the first part of "Train em, Trust em, Let em Lead?" You COULD start with the Patrol Leader Training Course that the "Train 'em" refers to: http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm BUT if you don't want to bother spending six months training the disposable Patrol Leaders that you are going to get rid of in six months anyway, then one work-around for making the transition from adult-led to boy-led is: 1) Divide the Patrol or Patrols into pairs of buddies (or in challenging territory, groups of four members), according to their walking speed. 2) The first pair MUST include the Scout with the best SCOUTCRAFT SKILLS (which in an adult-led Troop is usually NOT a Patrol Leader). 3) This lead Scout and his buddy waits at every fork in the trail until the next group arrives before proceeding down the correct trail, then the second group waits for the third before taking off, and so on. Each fork is a good place to have the preceding group challenge the next group to find their actual position on the map and point out the direction they should go. 4) The fastest adults find some way to walk at their own pace BUT stay AWAY from the Scouts on the trail. The slowest adults (like me now in my old age) act as "sweep" and remain 300 feet behind the slowest Scouts. 5) Adults camp separately from the Scouts. Baden-Powell's 300 feet is far enough when making the transition from adult-run to Scout-run. In challenging deep wilderness areas, we sometimes use radios WITH EAR BUDS, with the admonition to transmit only in an emergency. Remember that Leadership Development has ALWAYS been the enemy of the skills-based position-specific training of "Train em, Trust em, Let em Lead," as in: In general, Patrol Leader training should concentrate on leadership skills rather than on Scoutcraft Skills. The Patrol will not rise and fall on the Patrol Leader's ability to cook, follow a map, or do first aid, but it very definitely depends on his leadership skill (Scoutmaster's Handbook [1972], page 155).

Any relation to Dwayne Pritchett, the "Medicine Man"? One of my jobs is to sell the Patrols in my newly adopted Troop on using Dutch oven cooking to fulfill First Class requirements. They used my copies of The Geezer Cookbook for the first time last Monday. At first the older Scouts resented the idea of not just opening a jar of spaghetti sauce, but then at the same time I overheard the same refrain from two of the Patrols: "No, wait, LOOK. This is EASY!" Kudu

From an English sample Court of Honor (PLC) transcript for training Patrol Leaders: Troop Leader (TL=SPL): Any other business? O.K. then. Skipper, you said you wanted to have the last word; what's it about this time? SM: Smoking, for a change. I expect I'm old-fashioned but I still think Patrol Leaders in uniform puffing cigarettes in camp sets a bad example to the rest of the Troop. I would like to ask that you put a ban on it and, if it would help, the ASM and I are willing to give up smoking during the Troop weekend camp. PL Cuckoos: Well that will save you a lot of money, Skipper. SM: How many of you smoke regularly? Rather hesitatingly the TL and the PL Pigeons put up their hands. SM: Mind you, I don't think this is the sort of thing we can make rules about, but I am concerned about the example we set to the younger fellows in the Troop. I think we ought to try to avoid smoking in their presence. TL: O.K., I'm willing to play ball with this one. Skipper is right and we do seem to have got a bit slack about it. I suggest that at the weekend camp we really do make an effort to pull ourselves together, about this and one or two other things, Any other business? No? Then I declare the meeting closed. Next meeting a month from tonight. http://inquiry.net/patrol/court_honor/coh_session.htm(This message has been edited by kudu)

SeaGull, My advice is the most pragmatic and practical, precisely because it IS over-the-top! Rather than all this psychological mush, frame the issue in purely practical terms: Your son downloaded and memorized the Troop Leadership Training (TLT) PowerPoint Presentation (PPP) from the course that he missed. That gives everyone a chance to save face. If he has a flair for the dramatic, have him propose a game show contest in which he pits himself against the ENTIRE Troop, answering questions from the TLT PPP. NONE of the Scouts who attended TLT will still remember any of that stuff three weeks later, because it has absolutely NO value to any REAL boy. Kudu