Kudu

Tahawk writes: I suppose it could be that I called it a "fantasy version" of SFB. I did so because it is so different in so many ways from BP's work that is seems silly to use the same title. I am sure you could list dozens of differences. Dozens? Really? So please share with us just your Top Ten List of B-P's values-based Scouting for Boys content missing from a contemporary Green Bar Bill's "World Brotherhood Edition." Just the items significant enough to warrant your use of, um, "values-based" pejoratives such as "fantasy version of SFB," and "seems silly to use the same title." Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

1) I agree with Eagledad, treat the two "15 year olds as 35 year olds." Act as if they are ASMs, and they will grow to meet your expectations. Include them in your Scouter meetings. 2) B-P considered an SPL to be optional (a small Troop needs good Patrol Leaders, it does not need an SPL). Avoid the temptation to move either of the older Scouts into an SPL position for at least the first year or two. Let the younger Scouts see what it is like to be in a Patrol run by a competent older boy. When your Troop gets above the 12-16 member mark, consider splitting into two Patrols, each led by one of the older Scouts (or a promising younger Scout if the older Scouts want to stick together). One of them can also serve as an "acting" SPL when needed ("SPL" at Camporee cracker barrels, chair of PLC, etc.). 3) As qwazse suggests, keep the Patrol separated from the adults by Baden-Powell's 100 yards. You will quickly see the wisdom of #2 :-) Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

If you have a version of Scouting for Boys written by Baden Powell, as opposed to the fantasy "World Brotherhood Edition" written by Hillcourt, in which there is a material difference, please let us know. There, that kind of attitude is precisely why there are no "Scout Spirit" requirements, Scoutmaster Conferences, or Boards of Review in Baden-Powell's Scouting. Advancement in his program is based on the mastery of hands-on physical skills, not forced "values-based" word game contests with adults.

Tahawk writes: First, BP expressly provided in Scouting for Boys that a Scout who did not follow Scouting's values -- who "breaks his word of honor, or otherwise disgraces himself" -- should be removed from Scouting. That would be the enforcement of values. I believe that the "or otherwise disgraces himself" wildcard appears only in the 1908 edition. At any rate Scout Law states that only when a Scout has been put on notice before the fact, can he lose his membership badge: 1) Where a Scout provides sworn testimony: "If a scout says 'On my honour it is so,' that means that it is so, just as if he had taken a most solemn oath." 2) Where a Scout is charged on his honor to carry out a specific duty: "Similarly, if a scout officer says to a scout, 'I trust you on your honour to do this,' the scout is bound to carry out the order to the very best of his ability, and to let nothing interfere with his doing so." http://inquiry.net/ideals/scout_law/chart.htm So only if a Scout then breaks his honor by telling a lie under oath, or by not carrying out an order exactly when trusted on his honor to do so, would he then "lose his life" as a Scout. That sentence would be decided by the Patrol Leaders in their Court of Honor, not by the Scoutmaster or a committee of parents. That is the opposite of "Scout Spirit" requirements where the Scoutmaster is provided with an after the fact subjective wildcard to judge a Scout's "attitude" as a final hurdle to every "rank" badge. Tahawk writes: As to value-based tests for advancement, that too is traditional. BP said several times that it was effort, not actual proficiency, that should determine if a "proficiency badge" was awarded by a Scoutmaster: Proficiency Badges were not awarded by Scoutmasters, so they did not have any leverage there. Tenderfoot through First Class was handled by the Patrol Leader. More advanced badges were determined by outside Examiners. See 405 (i) & (ii): http://inquiry.net/traditional/por/proficiency_badges.htm Tahawk quotes B-P: ""Moreover, there is only one standard by which a boy is judged as qualified for a badge, and that is the amount of effort he puts into his work." Several times? As far as I know, Baden-Powell wrote that only once, in his autobiography (Lessons from the Varsity of Life,) late in life, in 1933 when he was 76 years old. In the next sentence he writes "This gives direct encouragement to the dull or backward boy..." That sentiment does not appear five years later in his last "Rules on how to play the game of Scouting for Boys except for a few specific exceptions designed for the "dull or backward boy:" "406. Special tests for physically or mentally defective boys are available on application to I.H.Q., through the D.C. "430. (1) Swimming. Swim 50 yards. If a doctor certifies that bathing is dangerous to the boy's health he must, instead of this, pass one of the following badges... "9) Journey. Go on foot or row a boat, alone or with another Scout, for a total distance of fourteen miles... In abnormal circumstances the Local Association may give permission for the paragraph to be made easier to exceptional cases." Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

Some of our Scouts built pioneering models first: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/skills/b-p/models.htm

In the "Real" Patrol Method at 300 feet (or out in the backwoods), a good Patrol Quartermaster can be as important as a Patrol Leader. Therefore, we always promoted good Patrol Quartermasters to the office of Troop Quartermaster so they could get PoR credit and a patch. The ideal in this Patrol Method is one Troop Quartermaster per Patrol. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

Green Bar Bill wrote: "A certain amount of drill is necessary for getting the Troop and Patrols into position for various activities and for moving the Troop with a semblance of order and smartness. "For this Scouting does not resort to military drill, but has developed its own technique, easily learned and considered by the boys as a game rather than a drill." See Silent Scout Signals: http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/skills/drill.htm

Tahawk writes: However, even in as narrow a context as Scouting, it is clearly humanly possible for Scoutcraft to be learned other than from a Patrol Leader and other than on an (adult-free) Patrol hike. Likewise it is humanly possible for a high school quarterback to get the ball into the end zone by throwing it to helpful spectators on the sidelines. That game is still "football" in the same way that replacing Hillcourt's Patrol Leader Training with program-neutral "leadership" formulas is still "Scouting." Tahawk writes: Even your prescription of "300 feet," allows for months of training of the Patrol Leaders in Scoutcraft and leadership skills Scoutcraft only. If you limit participation to gung-ho campers led by their natural leaders, then everything else is the enjoyment of outdoor personalities and practical problems. Tahawk writes: I am not sure if you regard the military as an "adventure" program," but they are quite satisfied that leadership training produces greater success than simply putting a squad or section off on their own and hoping that "nature takes its course." The difference is that the military appoints our natural leaders. If Wood Badge ran the military we would recruit Hispanic pacifists, modernize basic training to address the needs of Cub Scout Leaders, replace war games with "program-neutral" EDGE, hold unit elections every six months, and expand diversity training to include Pashto so as to better communicate with our new masters. Tahawk writes: Of course, they have downsides in mind that are much worse than burnt eggs. My point exactly. Leadership Development took away Patrol Leader Training (how to lead your Scouts into the woods without adult supervision): We replaced Adventure with Webelos III "controlled failure" so as to preclude any downsides worse than burnt eggs. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net (This message has been edited by Kudu)

Tahawk, Thank you for your brevity and civility. Tahawk writes: "CAMPFIRE YARN. - No. 12. [No. 9 is solely about nature.] Yes, it is Yarn 12 in the 1908 edition. The standard in Traditional Scouting is the "Memorial Edition" (1942), or the more commonly available "World Brotherhood Edition" edited by Green Bar Bill. Tahawk quotes B-P: "CAMP ORDERS . . . "Such orders might point out that each patrol will camp separately from the others...." Tahawk writes: Respectfully, is it not the separateness that is more important than the actual distance? To an adult, perhaps. A specific distance is more common in games: Every boy understands "Set up your Patrols a football field apart." Apparently the "each patrol will camp separately from the others" guideline of the 1908 edition was not specific enough, because the standard distance (50 to 100 or more yards) was added to all of the later editions of Scouting for Boys (including Hillcourt's American edition). The same specific distance between Patrols also appears in the international "how-to" texts including The Patrol System, by Roland Philipps, and Boy Scouts, by Gilcraft. I would think that every leadership enthusiast would be eager to test his or her modern theories against Baden-Powell's international standard. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://www.youtube.com/user/At300Feet

I wrote: No, but I would like to be proven wrong. bnelon44 wrote: OK, so it was not an official policy of B-P's but a suggestion that you found useful. I was talking about the BSA program, which replaced his Patrol System with leadership theory (history repeats itself). bnelon44 writes: Also, I realize B-P suggested 100 yards in an Outlook article. Did he put it down as a "rule" in any of his handbooks? Baden-Powell wrote only one Boy Scout handbook, Scouting for Boys, which has sold 100 to 150 million copies since 1908. I haven't found the 100 yards guideline in the 1908 printing, but to all of the later editions he added the following as the first sentence of "Making Camp" (Yarn 9: Camping): "In Scout camps the tents are not pitched in lines and streets as in military camps, but are dotted about in Patrol units, fifty or a hundred yards apart or more, in a big circle round the Scoutmaster's tent, which, with the flag and camp fire, is generally in the centre." So now that you know that in all his millions of handbooks around the world, B-P specified specific distances between Patrols, what exciting new training possibilities does that bring to mind? Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net(This message has been edited by kudu)

Bnelon44 writes: Again, it may be a good idea, and it may not (depending on how independent and mature the patrol and Scouts are), but to say it is a fundamental institution of Scouting? Um, the "Fundamental Institution of Scouting" is the Patrol Hike under the sole leadership of the Patrol Leader. At the very least every Patrol Leader should be planning and leading (without adults, SPLs, Troop Guides, etc.) on a regular basis all the "five mile hikes" that his Scouts will ever need for Second Class. The goal of Patrol Hikes is to qualify for Patrol Camping. According to Green Bar Bill, this process is what defines a "Real" Patrol. That is what all those pretty words are about: All those Baden-Powell and Green Bar Bill quotes that modern "leadership" enthusiasts so love to sprinkle around without ever driving home that they refer to the most fundamental experience of Scouting, unsupervised Patrol Hikes and unsupervised Patrol Campouts. Bnelon44 writes: I think I would have so see more evidence that this was ever the case. Why not stick to Patrol Hikes and Patrol Campouts? I'm sure that you are familiar enough with chapters six and seven of Green Bar Bill's Handbook for Patrol Leaders, to know what a "Real" Patrol is. Likewise in his Handbook for Scoutmasters, GBB said to get those Patrols out camping without adult supervision as soon as possible. If a Patrol and its Scouts are not "independent and mature enough" to camp miles from the nearest adult, then it is not a "Real" Patrol. So what difference does the "official policy of B-P's" make then? Baden-Powell's 100 yard guideline is really the Troop Method: Just a simulation of the Patrol System within the safety of an adult-supervised Troop Campout. Those who object to something so simple have never tried it. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu So it results that Scouts' camps should be small -- not more than one Troop camped together; and even then each Patrol should have its own separate tent at some distance (at least 100 yards) from the others. This latter is with a view to developing the responsibility of the Patrol Leader for his distinct unit. Baden-Powell http://inquiry.net/patrol/traditional/100_yards.htm

You might check the early Wood Badge staff books for suggestions on how far apart to space the Wood Badge Patrols. It was common practice to assign each Patrol its own Troop campsite.(This message has been edited by kudu)

No, but I would like to be proven wrong Presumably Baden-Powell's minimum standard was not compatible with the BSA's first "leadership" theory, The Six Principles of Boy Work: "Care should be taken by the Scout Master that the patrol leaders do not have too great authority in the supervision of their patrols." http://inquiry.net/adult/methods/1st/index.htm Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

Scout books are often cheaper at AddAll. Three copies of William Hillcourt's "World Brotherhood Edition" are available this morning for $1.99 each: http://tinyurl.com/6g5djv7 To find editions with almost 400 pages of Green Bar Bill's Patrol Method, look for keywords BSA or William Hillcourt and a date before 1972. Presumably the next edition of The Patrol Leader Handbook will reflect the highpoint of the BSA's centennial year celebration for leadership enthusiasts: The end of Green Bar Bill's "Real" Patrol Method. Look for its elimination from page 28 (bold-face, below): Most patrol activities take place within the framework of the troop. However, patrols may also set out on day hikes, service projects, and overnighters independent of the troop and free of adult leadership... Bnelon44, weren't you involved in the "Request of Clarification" that alerted our national "health and safety" helicopters to the true nature of the Patrol Method? Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

Basementdweller, it is the CSE who makes race an issue by asserting that Hispanic 12 year-olds should not sleep in tents away from their families. A "Trail to Eagle" Soccer Camp would be as bad for Scouting as Citizenship Merit Badges. I have already provided the relevant URLs. You will have to read them yourself. You do understand the meaning of "In a perfect world," don't you? As in: In a perfect world our Chief Scout Executive would assert that Hispanic families prefer that their children learn citizenship by organizing their own Patrol Outings Yours at 300 feet, Kudu Some recruiting stats (my Troop was at times 20% Hispanic): http://inquiry.net/adult/recruiting_boy_scouts_public_schools.htm (This message has been edited by kudu)

Eagle92 writes: Schools are not doing their jobs of educating our kids in civics, hence the need for the Citizenships. The answer to that is always: "Why not Little League?" If only we could convince sports leagues to switch from offering the things that boys love to do, to the BSA model of required schoolwork (which Baden-Powell warned us against)! Then boys would hate sports as much as they hate Scouting and we could compete on a level playing field, so to speak. And we wonder why they leave. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net (This message has been edited by kudu)

In the rest of the world, "Traditional Scouting" is a technical term that refers to Baden-Powell's program as it existed in some arbitrary but specific year (usually 1965 or 1938). As such it is a game similar to Vintage "Base Ball." For the sake of the informal way in which the term is used in this thread, no reader needs to struggle with these endless debates to understand "Traditional Scouting." Simply plan a campout in which your Patrol Leaders set up their Patrols "a football field apart," and by Sunday morning you will understand everything you need to know about Troop-based "Traditional Scouting." In other words, you can skip the rest of this technical post (plus all of the usual rebuttals) and not miss a thing TAHAWK writes: Scouting has traditionally been values-based, Clearly Baden-Powell based what we call "advancement" solely on the mastery of objective Scoutcraft and Public Service skills. That means no "values" tests: No Boards of Review, No Scoutmaster Conferences, No wildcard Scout Spirit requirements. http://inquiry.net/traditional/por/proficiency_badges.htm TAHAWK writes: I guess that makes Scouting's values the "result" of Scouts associating with adults. For Baden-Powell only in the sense that a coach can profoundly influence a young athlete's character without holding all of the boy's game stats hostage to moral character Boards of Review by his teammates' parents. TAHAWK writes: poor choices made by the corporation, especially in the early 1970's. Conceding that behavior trumps words, BSA says in 2011 that the outdoor program is Scouting's most important method. Despite what the "BSA says," the "CSE says" the same race card stuff as in the 1970s: It is "insensitive" to expect 12-year-old Hispanic boys to sleep in a tent away from their families: http://inquiry.net/leadership/sitting_side_by_side_with_adults.htm TAHAWK writes: It is good, Rick, to see you list "citizenship" as an aim of "traditional" scouting. You have, in the past on this forum, contended that scouting was never about citizenship development. Only if I failed to make clear Baden-Powell's distinction between schoolwork "three branches of government" citizenship (BSA Merit Badges), and his version of hands-on citizenship training: Organizing regular Patrol outings without adult supervision. TAHAWK writes: Certainly, BSA has never gone as far towards patrol autonomy as did BP in his early early writings. Neither has Scouting in the U.K followed that vision after its very earliest years. So we have labored on for over a century not doing it in what you call the "traditional" way. Baden-Powell's Patrol System was in effect at least until the 1966 Advance Party Report, and Green Bar Bill's Patrol Leader Training continued until 1972. Remarkably what he called the "Real" Patrol Method was technically possible until the Guide to Safe Scouting killed it for the BSA's centennial celebration. If I remember correctly, when you were a Scout your Scoutmaster ignored Hillcourt's National "Patrol Leader Training" course (How to lead your Patrol into the woods without adult supervision), and when you became a Scoutmaster you did the same, using a local Council "leadership skills" program instead. So it is no wonder that you conclude that Hillcourt's "Real" Patrol Method did not exist. http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm TAHAWK writes: And Rick, in all my Scouting I was never with a unit that had adults appoint the Scout leaders as you have advocated. That is because (if I remember correctly) you have never been with a unit that allowed Scout Patrols to camp without adult supervision. TAHAWK writes: As to "extreme camping," that has never been part of Scouting, Rick, except by accident. Not traditional at all. By "extreme camping" I mean the ONLY nights of camping that Baden-Powell counted toward what we call "advancement:" Unsupervised Patrol Camping, and unsupervised Journeys and Expeditions. I suspect that by the BSA's current Webelos III "nights of camping" standards, we can all agree that a Baden-Powell unsupervised 200 mile "Eagle Project" horseback Expedition through wild country would qualify as "extreme camping." http://inquiry.net/advancement/traditional/journey_requirements.htm The BSA program once included a version Baden-Powell's unsupervised 14 mile First Class Journey, and as recently as last year allowed unsupervised Patrol camping. TAHAWK writes: Defining the Uniform as merely a part of the outdoor program thus is not traditional. I define the Uniform as a practical outdoor method: small "m." In retrospect Hillcourt's invention of the "Aims and Methods" was what destroyed his life's work, because it reduced BSA Scouting to a formal formula of Methods (capital "M") that could be changed and then used against him: http://kudu.net/adult/methods/index.htm Troop 238 camps in campaign hats and the long-sleeved Centennial Uniform. For what it's worth I consider that to be "Traditional" and worthy of our admiration. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

From 1972 to 2011 the beauty of BSA millionaires using the race card to justify their indoor Scouting programs has been that white people can be shamed into remaining silent as millions of Scouts leave the BSA. My "extreme camping" recruiting presentation appealed to Hispanic boys in the same percentages (or higher) as white boys. Contrary to the CSE's convictions, none of these Hispanic Scouts ever expressed an interest in staying home with their grandmothers and baby sisters. "Trail to Eagle Camp"? Baden-Powell's Scouting was based on the observation that all boys share the same disdain for the school-based learning that these "required" Merit Badges represent. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu "Trail Away from Summer School Eagle Camp" Recruiting Presentation: http://inquiry.net/adult/recruiting.htm (This message has been edited by kudu)

Eamonn writes: Aren't we still the value based organization that we have always been? "Values-Based" Scouting: "Values" are a result of "Adult Association," which boils down to formal sessions in which Scouts' "advancement" is held hostage to character judgement by indoor adults. Values "experts" judge extreme camping to be an "old-fashioned" remnant of America's agrarian past. The only value of camping is to get boys to "sit side by side with adults of character." Therefore, switching to computers, aerospace, and soccer is still "Scouting." Presumably "values-based" Scouting is convinced that the attraction of "soccer" will not diminish as quickly as "camping" when soccer players are forced to endure formal character judgement sessions where parents (who don't play soccer) decide if a boy's "values" are good enough for the Board of Review to count the goals he scored out on the field. "Traditional Scouting:" The single aim of citizenship is learned by working together to plan and carry out Scouts' own backwoods single-Patrol adventures. Character is a by-product of extreme camping, in part the result of human struggle to cope with the raw forces of nature, and in part the non-structured influence of adults who can recognize an informal "teachable moment." Anybody can experience the effect that Traditional Scouting has on "21st century boys" by simply holding a campout in which the Patrol Leaders space their Patrols Baden-Powell's minimum 300 feet apart. Eamonn writes: Is "A Philosophy of Traditional Scouting" About dressing up in vintage Scout uniforms? "Values-Based" Scouting: The uniform is a symbol of "Scouting's deeply-held values," therefore only worn indoors. "Traditional Scouting:" The uniform is an outdoor method. Eamonn: As a Wood Badge course director, do you publicly insult your participants for "dressing up" in EXACTLY THE SAME "vintage Scout uniform" as Troop 238? Yours at 300 feet, Kudu (This message has been edited by kudu)

Basementdweller writes: Please site the source for your statement about hispanics Um, sure Basementdweller. As soon as the CSE cites the source for his statement that Hispanics hate camping. "Camping is not necessarily a big thing with them, as a matter of fact in some cases it is not big at all...is it more important that we get them in a tent next week?...when we say 'we want to take your twelve-year-old son but you can't come' we're making a mistake there." http://inquiry.net/leadership/sitting_side_by_side_with_adults.htm

Chug: Wrenn v. Boy Scouts of America

Fort Worth (BPSA-USA) was the second wave of Baden-Powell Scouting in the United States. I organized its Tenderfoot-First Class program based on 1965 UK Scouting. BPSA-USA delayed its national program launch until the outcome of Wrenn v. Boy Scouts of America, and then apparently bailed as a result of the unfavorable ruling. A younger generation's third wave BPSA is based on the 1938 Policy, Organization, and Rules (Baden-Powell's last PO&R). They maintain a Web-presence at http://bpsa-us.org/ and Facebook. Scouts238.Com includes a number of references to my Website and they may introduce those elements of BPSA Scouting for the fun of it, but they appear to be a Traditional Scouting unit working within current BSA guidelines. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu The BPSA's old first wave American program: http://inquiry.net/traditional/handbook/index.htm Baden-Powell's 1938 "Rules on How to Play the Game of Scouting for Boys.: http://www.inquiry.net/traditional/por/index.htm

Has anyone found an Email address on their site? Domain lookup lists the only contact as Amphion Communications.

The "1.609 Kilometer Swim," eh?

Friends who have been there tell me that program area staff will help Scouts with BSA requirements, but there are no American-style school schedule classes.