Kudu

Traditional Scouting is a game designed for boys. Once adults set it up, it is intuitive for them to carry out. The easiest way to prove that for yourself is simply plan a campout in which the Patrol Leaders separate their Patrols by Baden-Powell's minimum standard of 300 feet apart, and see what happens. The Winter 1997 issue of Scouter.Com's print publication, Scouter Magazine, includes articles by and about a 12 year-old Scout from my Troop who had organized his own Indian Lore "Boy Scout Troop" by buying up old Traditional Scouting library discards. The issue includes material based on interviews of the Scout by Scouter Terry and "Big Ed" Henderson. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

I suppose you support merit badge universities too. In a perfect world our Chief Scout Executive would be engaged in a national media blitz to promote a "21st century program" in which Scouts get all the required schoolwork badges signed off in a single weekend. Why? Because Hispanic families prefer that their children learn citizenship by organizing Patrol Outings. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

In this case trained parents can extract undeserved respect because the YMCA structured the BSA monopoly to comply with their school-based, adult-run "camp" program. Baden-Powell designed Scouting as the mastery of OBJECTIVE backwoods standards judged by trained outdoorsmen: Life Scout required a 20 mile backwoods Journey through difficult country without adult supervision. Calvin's Board of Review was designed to demonstrate his compliance with SUBJECTIVE indoor standards as judged by trivial mommies and daddies. My solution would be to require everyone to hike alone through 20 miles of "stiff" wilderness just to participate in his BOR, preferably on top of some mountain. Those who survived would be more likely to have opinions worthy of a Scout's respect Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

moosetracker writes: Kudu - ... you told him to rebel disrespectfully.. (all but your last comment, to sew the stupid patch back on.) Yeah, just to be clear, Calvin: Those people intend to do you harm, and the "Scout Spirit" wild card is designed to do that. So now that you know that you are right and they are wrong, it is up to you to be the "adult" in this situation and just sew the stupid patch back on Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

MapleScouter writes: Would you consider my plans unethical and harmful to the democratic process? Yeah, if you click my "Posts: 1535" number link under "Kudu" (on the left of your screen), you will see why I think parents already have too much power in American Boy Scout Troops. Encouraging your "parent committee" to overrule the PLC is a bad precedent, especially in a Troop where "not even the troop scribe has managed to gain access" to Troop records. If the majority of the Troop wants to go to summer camp B, have you tried one-on-one negotiations with the three Patrol Leaders who favor summer camp A? Everybody wants something, so the art of the deal is finding out what each "something" is. Therefore the reasons why different Patrols think different camps are "superior" might be more relevant to your question here in this forum than the abstract "whole ends justifying means dilemma." Also, some large Troops go to two different summer camps every year. MapleScouter writes: To encourage scouts, I'm planning to award things like patrol patch accessories...I'm going to give my subPLC cheap little scribe/insignia pins...Their jobs rival those of the PL's of smaller troops given the work involved. I'd want all incentives to be related to the program and not something random like ice cream. You might consider creative Position of Responsibility (PoR) credits toward advancement. For instance, there is no rule that limits a unit's number of Troop Scribes and Troop Quartermasters. If your Patrol Scribe and Patrol Quartermaster have responsibilities that rival those of a Patrol Leader, then you might work with your Scoutmaster to get them Troop-level PoR credit (and therefore the official patches). Another possibility for PoR credits (but no patches) are "Scoutmaster-assigned leadership projects." MapleScouter writes: Without trying to sound elitist, I feel that I'm more trained for leadership than many of my peers within my troop....I hope that I can teach this to my patrol and become a model patrol for the greater troop to follow. If you dig too far into my past posts you will find that I believe that leadership theory destroyed Scouting in the United States. Business management Wood Badge took away training for what Green Bar Bill called the "Real" Patrol Method, and replaced it with the "Troop Method" in which the primary unit of Scouting is the Troop (and therefore familiar to adults who work in office cubicles all day). Given my perspective I can't help but see the same process at work in your mega-Patrol with your "subPLC" and your "plan to have a semi-full leadership team," etc. So I agree with Moosetracker's suggestion "That is what should be concentrated on...get your patrol out.. Once a month...For day outings you can take your patrol out without any adult leadership (providing the adults dont squawk)." In other words if you want to make a meaningful impact on the lives of your younger Scouts, place less emphasis on "I'm quite tech savvy, being on my school-issue laptop about 8 hours every day for business or pleasure, and am planning to use googledocs..." and get your Patrol outdoors for a backwoods Patrol Adventure at least once a month, preferably without any adult supervision. The best "how to" reference for that is the old two-volume third edition of the Handbook for Scoutmasters, available for about $20 per volume. See: http://tinyurl.com/3vc7cen If money is a consideration, the "Real" Patrol Method (including Patrol Outings) is explained in great detail in Volume 1. A much cheaper alternative is a copy of Green Bar Bill's Patrol Leader Handbook published PRIOR to 1970 (the Patrol Method was destroyed in 1972): http://tinyurl.com/6kbrfa8 But given your intellectual nature, you might find the adult Scoutmaster version more challenging. In the meantime your Patrol is big enough to hold your own "Wide Games" on Patrol Outings. See my Website: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/games/wide/index.htm Finally (as you have already experienced), given your unorthodox style you will be subjected to all kinds of personal attacks in Scouting forums. It is the only way that some adult leaders know how to respond to views that contradict their Wood Badge training. In fact the last time that I included here on Scouter.Com the URL for the Wikipedia reference on ad hominem, somebody actually edited the Wikipedia article to say that ad hominem attacks are a good thing! So try not to be intimated... Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net Edited to Add: Don't cut your Patrol in half just because "trained" adults tell you to. A big Patrol can have its own advantages, not the least of which is more fun. Oh, and in the summer some Patrols even arrange weekly outings (just don't burn out). If it is too hot during the day, consider Night Games: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/night/index.htm (This message has been edited by kudu)

moosetracker writes: You scoff at anyone advancing to Eagle rank. False: I only "scoff" at indoor Eagles. Perhaps you think I "scoff at anyone advancing to Eagle" because you just assume that "indoor Eagle" is redundant! So Calvin, if you are an indoor Scout then I hereby "scoff" at you. moosetracker writes: Confusing a youth who is going for star, because you don't agree with this part of the program, is cruel. He is going for Life. What is "cruel" and "confusing" is all the adults who will pile on him (here and in his Troop) to explain his experience in terms of how his "Scout Spirit" sucks. For instance: "but the issue is YOUR ATTITUDE, then YOU returning with some SMUG statement and demand, will not help YOUR CASE. I now HAVE TO question if the badge is a tangent example of an overall ATTITUDE within your Troop. And the postponement for the board is really due to SCOUT SPIRIT, due to an "IN YOUR FACE" ATTITUDE, or and "I DON"T CARE" ATTITUDE...Is this the ICE TIP of other DISPLAYS of not caring, or CHALLENGING others.. " Heaven forbid a Boy Scout who dares "not to care" about a Star badge that falls off the last 20 minutes that he ever wears it, huh? moosetracker writes: BP's program was a game with a purpose as you say, but within that game was also a lesson about teaching scouts character.. It was not about teaching scouts to be disrespectful, and insolent... No, B-P's lessons were about the character of a Life Scout that rings true only after he makes an extreme camping "journey of at least 20 miles on foot or by boat, with [no adult supervision and] not more than 3 other Scouts." Nowhere in Baden-Powell's program is it possible for a bunch of "disrespectful and insolent" parents to take anything away from that Scout on the grounds of their indoor understanding of "Scout Spirit." moosetracker writes: BP was in favor of the uniform The uniform makes for brotherhood, since when universally adopted it covers up all differences of class and country. Neither BP nor the BSA require a uniform for advancement. moosetracker writes: I know you will be back, to argue against me, because it is your nature. Not so much here anymore. I have given Calvin the historical context with which to understand all of the "disrespectful and insolent" crap he got at his BOR and will get on this thread when all the indoor "values experts" park themselves in front of their keyboards at work on Monday morning to practice their awesome corporate cubical leadership skills on the boss' dime In "Real Life" I would suggest that Calvin sew the stupid Star Badge back on his Uniform, but understand exactly why most red-blooded American boys hate the parent-run Webelos III program we call "Scouting." Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

I don't read big blocks of text, but I'm sure that you are trying to say: A BSA Scout Troop is Adult-Run with a Purpose. (This message has been edited by kudu)

Calvin, The simple answer is that there is no rule that a badge must be sewn to your shirt. For $8.99 the Boy Scouts of America will even sell you a "Badge Magic" Patch Adhesive Kit: "No more sewing badges! Kit contains a 12" sheet of adhesive material that is die-cut into shapes of the most popular uniform emblems, numbers, and badges. Peel off the backing and attach directly to the uniform." In fact there is no national BSA "written rule" that requires you to even wear a uniform to a BOR. You can appeal it all the way to National HQ and you WILL win. So why did a room full of adults lie right to your face? Therein lies one of those "valuable lessons" that adults so love to teach: Scouting was invented by a wise old general named Baden-Powell ("B-P"). He designed it as a "game" for boys who like extreme camping. The "purpose" was to teach outdoor boys (the kind of boys who --like him-- don't care much for homework) how to grow up to be good citizens. So in his version of Scouting there are no schoolwork badges like "Citizenship," "Personal Management," or any of the other boring stuff known collectively as "Required." You might wonder how Baden-Powell could teach citizenship without schoolwork badges. The "purpose" of B-P's "game" is to experience citizenship directly; to work together as a group of boys to accomplish a common goal: extreme camping. To that end Baden-Powell designed Scouting to be "boy-run." In his version of the game the Patrol Leaders literally run the Troop through their "Court of Honor" (what we call the PLC). In Baden-Powell Scouting there is no "committee" of non-camping mommy and daddy experts, Boards of Review, Scoutmaster Conferences, "Scout Spirit" adult wild cards, or Position of Responsibly advancement requirements to encourage the rapid turn-over of young, inexperienced Patrol Leaders (aka what "trained" adults like to call "controlled failure leadership training"). The URL below is an example of a typical B-P boy-run committee meeting. Note that the Patrol Leaders tell the adults which Scouts they have promoted in rank, and not the other way around: http://inquiry.net/patrol/court_honor/coh_session.htm So Calvin, why does a Board of Review conducted by indoor mommies and daddies think they have the power to "send you back" over something as trivial as a badge? The answer is "Monopoly." A "monopoly" is the opposite of a "free market." It's all about "citizenship" in the real world. The YMCA invented an adult-run schoolwork version of Scouting but at the time other American Boy Scout associations offered Baden-Powell's boy-run program. So the YMCA took over a failing organization called the BSA which was run by a newspaperman who was bored with his bad business investment. The YMCA got the government to grant the BSA a monopoly on the word "Scouting" so that nobody in the United States could offer Baden-Powell's boy-run version of the program. So hopefully you will learn a "valuable lesson" from all this: For the rest of your life whenever you hear the term "free market," you will remember what it is like to be treated unfairly by trivial people who impose their so-called "values" on you because they are backed by the power of a government-imposed "monopoly." But before you start reading Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged remember that the grass only seems greener on the libertarian side. The fact that you have completed all the indoor Merit Badges and "PORs" you need to be a Life Scout might indicate that you would not like Baden-Powell's extreme camping program either: Bushman's Cord (Life Scout) Venturer Badge (required): 1) Complete an adventure journey as a member of a Patrol in which you shall play a leading part. a) The journey, which may be short in length, must include at least 5 incidents such as rescues from fire or heights, compass work, and signalling over distance. b) Water incidents to be included for Sea Scout Troops. 2) Make a journey of at least 20 miles on foot or by boat, with [no adult supervision and] not more than 3 other Scouts. a) Route must be one with which the Scout is not familiar and should, if possible, include stiff country. b) Sleep out, using only the gear carried in a backpack. c) Maximum weight 31 lbs which must include food. d) The Examiner may set the candidate 1 or 2 tasks, which require a specific report but no general log of the journey is required. http://inquiry.net/advancement/traditional/journey_requirements.htm Obviously the big advantage of the BSA program is that if you simply obey a committee of other boys' mommy and daddy experts at why your "Scout Spirit" sucks, you can earn Eagle Scout without ever walking into the woods with a pack on your back. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net (This message has been edited by Kudu)

I don't understand why you are so upset, Hawkrod. We agree completely: A BSA Scout Troop is Adult-Run with a Purpose. To answer Buffalo Skipper's question in the parent thread: The purpose and function of a Troop Committee is to keep a BSA Troop run by a bunch of mommies and daddies who don't go camping. The Scoutmaster and his assistants can offer advice but they do not get a vote. In Baden-Powell's program the Troop is run by a committee of Patrol Leaders. The Scoutmaster and his assistants can offer advice but they do not get a vote. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

So call it "Adult Run, with an Explanation."

The purpose of a Troop Committee is to keep BSA Troops adult-led. In Baden-Powell's definition of "Scouting," the Patrol Leaders literally run the Troop through their "Court of Honor" (what we call the PLC). There is no "committee" of non-camping mommy and daddy experts, Boards of Review, Scoutmaster Conferences, "Scout Spirit" adult wild cards, or Position of Responsibly advancement requirements to encourage the rapid turn-over of young, inexperienced Patrol Leaders (aka the "controlled failure 'leadership' training" Troop Method). Baden-Powell's Rules on How to Play the Game of Scouting for Boys. http://inquiry.net/traditional/por/index.htm A typical boy-run committee meeting: http://inquiry.net/patrol/court_honor/coh_session.htm Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

Our camp has the SPLs sign-up to do inspections of other units' sites as part of the competition for the Baden Powell award. Somewhere in the foothills of Mount Kenya, Baden-Powell is turning over in his grave.

SeattlePioneer writes: I'm imagining an animatronic Kudu at the Scout Museum, commissioned by the Chief Scout Executive, and only making polite and supportive comments about programs coming out of the national office. Seattle, Just don't let it be "cheesy"

KC9DDI writes: yes, I know that if people would just do what GBB and BP suggest, the problem would be solved overnight. But reality, unfortunately, isn't so simple). Well, yeah it is that simple. The question is what can a 17yo Scout do to get "boy-leaders" to experience the "Patrol Method." My answer (in the links above) is simply separate the indoor boys and men from the outdoor Scouts, and get those outdoor Scouts out on the trail. The backwoods is the "Real" Patrol Method, according to "what GBB and BP suggest." The idea that he will transform indoor boys and adult helicopters by applying "leadership" theory to the TROOP SPL and the TROOP PLC is by definition the Troop Method. The BSA celebrated our centennial year by making the "Real" Patrol Method against the Guide to Safe Scouting. But even with "two-deep leadership," the kind of adults that are willing to put packs on their backs are the kind that will eventually move in the direction EagleScouter2010 is leading, if only at first with ad hoc Patrols in the backwoods. As soon as he gets those outdoor Scouts out on the trail (if only a half-mile from the Troop trailer and the Webelos III adults), the natural leaders among them will understand "Patrols" right away without any "leadership" theory. Scouting is a game. It just "clicks." And yeah, he can literally accomplish that much "overnight." Well OK, maybe 36 hours Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

EagleScouter2010 writes: My troop is currently fully run by the adults with very little exception. I will be very busy myself with planning trips and meetings because this troop has never gone backpacking....so sad. I am going to be taking my backpacking and hiking merit badges and I thought that I could get them involved as well since I have to plan and take part in many events for the badges. Yeah, I think backpacking is your hook. If you have even one adult leader who is an outdoorsman, plus a couple of Scouts who are excited about putting packs on their backs and setting out to explore the backwoods, you can even within your own Troop begin to build a future nucleus of what Green Bar Bill called "Real" Patrol Leaders. Despite all the advice you are getting about training being the answer, most "Scoutmaster Specific," "Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills," Wood Badge, and NYLT courses are built on "First Year Program" outdoor skills. The idea is that the "purpose" of Scouting is "Ethical Choices," or "The Three Aims," or "Leadership and Character," not what Baden-Powell or Green Bar Bill called "Real" Scouting. So if you want to get your Scouts out on the trail, you need to find adults who learned backwoods skills outside of BSA training. You may find out that you have outdoor dads (or moms) who never participate in your regular babysitting campouts, but who would be excited about actual backwoods adventure. If not, your Backpacking Merit Badge Counselor might know someone who would be willing to join you for your two-deep leadership (and guidance). One word of caution: Backpacking Merit Badge is a good excuse to experience "Real" Scouting, but the requirements are all about distance. If your long-term aim is to someday move your entire Troop (or -- more realistically -- just the mature Patrols) to the "Real" Patrol Method, be sure to offer once-a-year backpacking trips that cover only four (4) miles over the entire weekend so as to meet the Camping Merit Badge backpacking requirement. In fact I would start with only 1/2 mile to get the kinks out. Here are a couple of my experiments along that line: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=284757&p=3 http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=313956 And (for new readers) my suggestions in one of your own previous threads: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=308428&p=1 How big is your Troop? Adult-run Troops are often large because parents know their indoor sons can add Eagle Scout to their resumes with only a Webelos III mastery of outdoor skills. As SeattlePioneer points out in one the above threads, the advantage of large Eagle Mills is that if you offer real adventure to boys stuck there, you can build a good-sized crew of Scouts who will jump at the chance to get away from the indoor adults (once you get peer-pressure on your side). Remember also that Baden-Powell's program was all about backwoods adventure. He always offered the alternative of canoe trips for those who seek adventure but don't care for backpacking. You will find additional adults in that direction too. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

Yeah, with fake Green Bar Bill quotes extolling the virtues of learning "leadership" by sitting indoors, side by side with adults of character!

what is "green bar" about? The position patch for Patrol Leaders was simply two green bars. BadenP: GBB was allowed to sprinkle a few outdoor requirements back into the "modern" program, but he was never allowed to fix the Patrol Method. Leadership Development took Green Bar Bill's Patrol Leader Training away from the Patrol Leaders and replaced it with Troop Method training. See "Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol:" http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm James West deserves credit for taking a stand against leadership theory and replacing it with the Patrol Method on September 21, 1923. Presumably "modern" Scoutmaster training (then as now) had so effectively stamped out B-P's Patrol System in the United States that he had to hire a European to implement it. If Boy Scouts studied Green Bar Bill they would quickly see that the fake Baden-Powell quotes their parents learn in Wood Badge come from Green Bar Bill. See "Scouting is a Game with a Purpose," for instance: http://inquiry.net/ideals/scouting_game_purpose.htm West also took a pro-Baden-Powell stand against Seton and Beard, both of whom corrupted the Patrol Adventure meaning of "Scouting" so as to claim credit for it. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

He is excluded from the Scouting Heritage Merit Badge as well.

Trabucchi writes: Our troop runs a TLT training each year for the boys that need training for their positions. One topic that seems to brush by all the scouts every year is the need for a patrols to consider having patrol meetings/activities outside the normal troop meetings. Anyone know of any games/activities that demonstrate the value of working in smaller groups (patrol) vs larger (troop) to demonstrate the value of the patrol method? So, do you want to "teach the value of working in smaller groups," or do you want them to experience the actual Patrol Method? If it is the later, Shortridge nailed it: "TLT can be whatever you want it to be. If you want practical, hands-on, field work, do a campout with patrols doing their own thing and call it 'training' for the leaders. If you want to run a standard TLT program, have the campout as the 'capstone'." To that I would add, separate the Patrols by Baden-Powell's minimum standard of 300 feet. If you have never tried B-P's minimum standard, your yearly training course might be a good place to start. You will be surprised at quickly the Patrol Method clicks not only for the Scouts but for the adults as well. If too many of your Scouts are too immature for you to trust their Patrol Leaders' abilities at 300 feet, you can do what I did recently: A "back-country fishing trip" (AKA backpacking trip). I selected the Troop's most mature Scouts, and let them form an ad-hoc Patrol of friends whom they felt they could control in the back-country without adult supervision. I then formed a second ad-hoc Patrol of younger Scouts who are gung-ho about the backwoods, but not mature enough to run wild. The older Scouts picked their own route to Gator Hole. The younger Scouts marched ahead of the adults (or at least that was the plan). At Gator Hole, the younger Scouts camped about a football field away from the adults. The older Scouts camped much further. A couple of videos of the hike: http://www.youtube.com/user/At300Feet Consider Wide Games, the original team-building exercise: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/games/wide/index.htm Our Scouts play a laser version of manhunt in which the Scouts being hunted must every so many minutes tag a tree near Scouts pursuing them to show they are still in the game. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

Gary_Miller writes: It seems that some units are placing way too much emphasis ... on Community Service and not on scouting skills and getting out in the woods doing scouting. Some units, Gary? For the next five or six years Community Service will be the theme of our CSE's newest national anti-Scoutcraft campaign: "Prepared. For Life:" As we move into this second century we have the opportunity to insure that America's young people are indeed, now get these words because starting today--because I'm announcing it in Philadelphia--our new theme going forward for at least the next five or six years will be Prepared--period--For Life. When you think about it from a marketing and public relations point of view you have all kinds of potential. But we have the opportunity to insure that America's young people are indeed Prepared. For Life... Did you know that there was a time when to be a First Class Scout--you guys didn't know this I bet--did you guys have to learn how to catch a runaway horse to be a First Class Scout? When was the last time you saw a runaway horse? [audience response: "Tuesday"] Tuesday? Whoa! OK. Oh, that's right! This is Amish country, isn't it? [but then without missing a beat he returns to his anti-Scouting skills theme] So what do we mean by being Prepared For Life: Obviously we don't have to learn how to catch a runaway horse anymore. That's not an important skill! Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

CricketEagle writes: I openly admit I come from the perspective of the old school. ... Wasnt that part of BPs original method? Part of the confusion results from using the term "Patrol Method" when we really mean "Troop Method." Key indicators are discussions limited to Troop concepts like "PLC," "Boy-Led Troop," and "Yearly Planning." In "B-P's original method" when a Patrol "planned" an outing it was more along the lines of: "Want to hike to the old mill on Saturday?" "OK, do you want to take sandwiches or cook a hot meal?" That is the Patrol Method: A boy-sized group in which eight friends have boy-sized adventures. Adventures that included cooked food required more "planning" but it was still on a boy-scale. If you do "come from the perspective of the 'old school'" and want to run things more along "B-P's original method," you might want to read how his PLC sessions actually work: http://inquiry.net/patrol/court_honor/coh_session.htm Note that the Patrol Leaders are highly competent at organizing their own monthly hikes but when they plan a whole-Troop campout, they decide on the general theme and then delegate the details to the adult leaders! OMG! Maybe that has implications for your "young" Troop's PLC? As for the actual Patrol-based Patrol Method, you can scale it down to 21st century standards by using Baden-Powell's rule that Patrols be no closer than 300 feet apart when camping with other Patrols. You will be surprised at how quickly Scouts grow when given just that little taste of what the BSA once called the "Real" Patrol Method! I second Eagle92's suggestion that you read the Two-Volume 3rd edition of the Handbook for Scoutmasters. It includes a Troop training course for Patrol Leaders using the "Real" Patrol Method. They are available for about $20 per volume at the following URL. To be sure you have the right edition, look for the word "Volume" in the description: http://tinyurl.com/3vc7cen Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

moosetracker writes: You kind of took it out of context. No, the "context" to which I refer is Baden-Powell's Boy Scout program. To his understanding of Scouting, NONE of our Camping Merit Badge "camping" requirements would count as "camping" for the purposes of what we Americans call "advancement." In fact he defines organized summer camps ("canvas towns") as the very opposite of Scouting. moosetracker writes: Could be done with car-style camping rather then backpack-style camping Exactly: "While on a Webelos III campout, drive to a mall and repel 30 feet down a climbing wall" (or drive to a 1,000 foot hill and climb it). But I wonder how many malls allow cupcakes to just repel down without first climbing up the wall. What we refer to as "car-camping" is known in Baden-Powell's program "static camping," where Patrols set up 300 feet apart so as to teach younger Scouts the skills they will need to participate in what Bill Hillcourt called a "Real" Patrol. But the only "nights of camping" that count as "camping" in Baden-Powell's program are Real Patrol outings. moosetracker writes: The only one that is Backpack is if they choose one of the 3 options in option #2.. "Backpack." My point exactly. To Baden-Powell, "Scouting" is measured by backwoods "Journeys" and "Expeditions" starting with a 15 mile Journey for First Class, 20 for Bushman's Cord, and a 50 mile Expedition (200 by horseback) for King's Scout. See: http://inquiry.net/advancement/traditional/journey_requirements.htm That is what "Scouting" is: "scouting" through the backwoods. Mind you, these are unsupervised Journeys before the invention of backpack waist straps and lightweight equipment. moosetracker writes: But most of the ones you did not find offensive Oh? I find them all "offensive," including the 4 mile Wolf Cub trip from which Camping Merit Badge is designed to spare our tender-footed Eagle Scouts. So Camping Merit Badge does not take the "outing" out of Scouting, but (by Baden-Powell's standards) it does take the "scouting" out of Scouting. When I gain a hundred pounds and get paid a million dollars a year to be Chief Scout Executive, I promise to treat the schoolwork Merit Badges (all of which drive red-blooded American boys away from Scouting) with the same contempt with which we now treat "camping" in Camping Merit Badge: "Demonstrate to your merit badge counselor your understanding of time management, OR float downstream for four hours eating cupcakes." Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

moosetracker writes: Does anyone else have memories of merit badges that had (or have) requirements that made no sense? How about the Camping Merit Badge alternatives to, um, CAMPING: designed so that Eagle Scouts need never have walked into the woods with a pack on their backs? 3. Take a bike trip of at least 15 miles or at least four hours. 4. Take a non-motorized trip on the water of at least four hours or 5 miles. 6. Rappel down a rappel route of 30 feet or more. Try to imagine a world in which these alternatives to the backwoods were added to all of the "Turn Scouting Into School" Merit Badges like Personal Management: "Track your actual income, expenses, and savings for 13 consecutive weeks, or ride your bike around for four hours." "Explain to your merit badge counselor the concepts of simple interest and compound interest, or rappel 30 feet." "Demonstrate to your merit badge counselor your understanding of time management, or float downstream for four hours eating cupcakes." Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

KC9DDI writes: I honestly don't know: has National ever come out and said that cell phones are to be discouraged or prohibited on Scouting events? On the contrary, the whole point of our Chief Scout Executive's media blitz last year was to promote Wood Badge as the kind of "leadership" training that CEOs want for their indoor employees. The only thing that outdoor skills are good for is to get boys to sit "side by side with adults of character," and you can do that just as well if you lure them indoors in front of a computer: "Our goal is not to teach someone to rub two sticks together and make a fire. But when you rub two sticks together and make a fire side by side with an adult of good character, you're going to learn about who you are and go on to lead men...You can teach a kid about character and leadership using aerospace and computers. The secret is to get them side by side with adults of character...We've had CEOs on our board say they want to send their people to Wood Badge, our adult leader training program, because we use state-of-the-art techniques." http://inquiry.net/leadership/sitting_side_by_side_with_adults.htm So if the Chief Scout Executive has anything to say about it, the whole point of "21st century Scouting" is to get our Scouts to ditch their Patrol Leaders and text "side by side with an adult of good character!" That being said, something that I've noticed in "real life" is that it is the adults who love Cub Scout camping who object the most to cell phones and electronics. I think you can get hints of that in this thread. All the complaints about cell phone "abuse" seem to revolve around Webelos III venues. Summer camp? What does Boy Scout summer camp have to do with a "Real" Patrol? Sure, if we turn Scouting into school, then school rules about electronics make sense: Scouts should not text in the million-dollar dining hall while the staff works so hard to cook for them. Instead they should admire the salad bar and compare notes on the EDGE method. But out on the trail, who cares? I encourage electronics in the backwoods but it never seems intrusive. I only saw one cell phone on the last backpacking trip, even though the Scouts texted enough to know where all the other pairs of buddies were at any given time. Likewise, I only saw two iPods on the trail: http://www.youtube.com/user/At300Feet Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

BrentAllen writes: 3rd Edition Scoutmaster Handbook, Vol I & Vol II This is the 1930's - 1940's version of the SM HB. You have to search around to find copies, but it is worth it. Perhaps the most important thing you will learn from this forum is to take Brent Allen's advice on the 1,000+ page 3rd edition! They are available for about $20 per volume at the following URL. To make sure you have the right edition, look for the word "Volume" in the description. http://tinyurl.com/3vc7cen After you get the Troop working along the lines of the third edition, you can easily build your Troop up from eight Scouts (if you can get access to the local public school) by using my recruiting presentation: http://inquiry.net/adult/recruiting.htm Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net