Kudu

Brent, That is my point: Boys do take pride in their baseball uniforms.

The purpose of the word "rant" is to get others to dismiss an idea without thinking about it. This thread is not about uniforms, it is about metaphors. Stosh poses the "Methods of Scouting" as "Tools of the Trade." Everyone so far just assumes that "eight" Methods are valid "tools." But the very idea of "Methods" as a vehicle to some more important goal undercuts competency, as in "Baseball is only ONE of the 'eight methods' of Little League." Sports teams don't need a "Uniform Method" because they concentrate on competency: What boys take pride in. Any indoor boy can become an Eagle Scout without ever walking into the woods with a pack on his back BECAUSE we have the Aims & Methods. Tools at 300 feet, Kudu Scuba Diving Merit Badge: http://www.inquiry.net/scuba_diving_merit_badge/index.htm (This message has been edited by kudu)

But the point is to build a house, not to be good with tools. That's why most American boys hate Scouting. They would rather learn how to be "good with tools" so they stick with stuff they can do with their hands, such as sports. The so-called "Aims and Methods" is only a theory: A theory by which adults substitute chin-ups for Patrol Hikes, in the name building the house of "Fitness." A theory by which adults substitute the three branches of government for the natural pecking order of backwoods competency, in the name of building the house of "Citizenship." A theory by which adults substitute their indoor value judgements for what a boy should learn by walking into the woods with a pack on his back, in the name of building the house of "Character." It is interesting to note that the office experts who introduced the fake Methods of Leadership Development and Personal Growth in 1972, removed the Uniform Method for a decade and forever dumbed the Patrol Method and Outdoor Method down to the Cub Scout level. The Methods are eight rotten rungs on a ladder used to build the Three Aims house of homework and office cubicles. And we wonder why they leave. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu History of the Methods of Scouting: http://inquiry.net/adult/methods/index.htm

EagleScouter2010 writes: Kudu, I like your overall idea of weeding out the "indoor" scouts, but I still have the problem with my SPL. I feel that I should not do things over his head but I also feel that he is not motivated anymore and will not listen to my suggestions or ideas. We had the same problem. One of the reasons we started back-country fishing trips was that our SPL boasted about how he did not like camping. He is one of those Life Scouts who packs his camping gear in a suitcase with wheels. When the Tenderfoot Scouts would try to start a campfire using spark tools and natural tinder, he would say, "No! Use THIS!" and pull a chemical log out of his dad's car. I simply announced the back-country trip as something outside the regular program. I never used the term "backpacking," but everybody knew it would involve moving their personal equipment through space. So the SPL and the other indoor Scouts simply did not sign up, no hard feelings. EagleScouter2010 writes: I really wish that there were four obvious natural leaders in my troop! I think it was Eagledad who said that about 5% of the population are natural leaders. That has been my experience too: For every 20 Scouts, one of them is a natural leader. If you don't let him lead then he's usually the guy at the back of the room causing all the trouble. If you can't figure out who it is, it is not that big a deal. The Scouts will figure it out. The whole point of the Patrol Method was that in small outdoor groups, boy leaders emerge naturally. It's the guy who starts suggesting stuff when nobody knows what to do. Our two older Scouts landed on their feet. They had never backpacked before, but by the end of the first weekend, one of them was making plans to hike part of the Appalachian trail near his family's cabin in Georgia (which he did), and now the other is headed off to Philmont this summer. Really, if you yourself like backpacking, do yourself a favor and try it out. Letting the Scouts figure out "Boy-Led" in the backwoods is a whole lot easier than agonizing over personalities, indoor meeting plans, team-building exercises, and stuff like "PLC, SPL, ASPL, PLs, TG, SM, ASM, JASM, NYLT, POR (Position of Responsibility, btw), etc., etc.," as you are doing now. The leaders will emerge if you get them a half-mile from the parking lot. As SeattlePioneer writes, you can accomplish that in a Boy Scout camp (if you are willing to hike out with packs). When it came time for me to hand off to the Scouts responsibility for scheduling the next backcounty trip, recruiting the adult leaders, calling for reservations, making menus, figuring out water logistics, etc., Philmont Scout made excuses "I have too much homework," so Appalachian Scout stepped up. Then the Scouts voted him in as SPL. Then Philmont Scout surprised everyone and organized a 50 mile bike trip. Well, in a few short hours our Troop is off to the Florida Keys for a week of Boy Scout SCUBA diving. See you all down the trail. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu SCUBA Diving Merit Badge: http://www.inquiry.net/scuba_diving_merit_badge/index.htm

The Patrol Method is an Outdoor Method. I currently work with an adult-led Troop of about 50 Scouts. The way I got the Patrol Method started was to take the gung-ho outdoorsmen on short "backwoods fishing trips" (about a half-mile the first couple times because none of them had ever camped away from a Troop trailer). The indoor Scouts, indoor Eagles, and the indoor adult leaders all stayed home. That left only the Scouts who really liked the outdoors (ages 11 - 17), and the only three adult leaders who had been Scouts when they were boys. I picked the four obvious natural leaders, then had the Scouts pick buddies of two or threes, then had the groups of buddies separate themselves into two ad hoc Patrols of friends. Then I told the two pairs of leaders to find interesting Patrol sites "about a football field apart." At first we all cooked together because they had never used my gas backpacking stoves before, but after the first outing everything "clicked" and they began to buy their own. If you can physically separate (as far as possible) Patrols of outdoor boys under their most competent natural leaders, then everything begins to make sense without much talking (except to solve practical problems). With this core of "Real" Scouts, we then began to separate the Patrols on whole-Troop campouts according to the competency of their elected leaders. If you think of the Patrol Method in terms of physical distance and keeping friends together in the great outdoors, everything else will eventually fall into place. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://inquiry.net/patrol/index.htm

My point exactly: The cutting edge BSA "leadership" theory of the day took away what Baden-Powell called "real responsibility" (unsupervised Patrol Hikes and Overnights), and replaced it with "elected leaders" on a very short leash. (This message has been edited by Kudu)

Tahawk, I am involved in another Scouting project now so I must limit my Scouter.Com involvement to non-controversial informational posts. But, yes, I would like at a later date to debate your seven points. Especially the difference between the three "Purposes" of Scouting (a statute), and the so-called "Methods of Scouting" (a changing theory). A history of Scouting method theory can be found at: http://inquiry.net/adult/methods/index.htm In the meantime I would be interested in your insights into the "1968 Wood Badge Training Notebook" cited in the "Traditional Wood Badge" thread: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=301440'>http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=301440 I can't find any mention of Thursday's program. The notes were not only required, but reviewed by a Staffer. So either the participant did not date Thursday's notes (on Monday the Staffer reviewing his Notebook wrote: "It would be helpful to you if you put a date on the pages"); OR Thursday was a day of "practical hands-on" activities (such as the Wood Badge Patrol Hike and Patrol Overnight). If I read your post correctly, you at least "witnessed" your local Wood Badge course in the 1960s. I did not. So if you can solve the Thursday mystery and comment in the following thread, I would be grateful: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=301440 Yours at 300 feet, Kudu Scuba Diving Merit Badge: http://inquiry.net/scuba_diving_merit_badge/index.htm

Here is an article on using lightweight equipment for regular campouts that do not involve backpacking to a remote location: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/equipment/lightweight_camping.htm Most Boy Scout camps have "primitive" camping areas where you can spread out as much as you want. Ask the camps' rangers. One advantage of lightweight equipment is that can use these areas to experiment with separating your Patrols by Baden-Powell's minimum distance of 300 feet. I currently work with a local adult-run Troop. As soon as we separated the ad hoc Patrols "a football field apart" on campouts limited to the mature Scouts, their natural leadership instincts emerged. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu Scuba Diving Merit Badge: http://inquiry.net/scuba_diving_merit_badge/index.htm

Understand that within months of the retirement of BSA Wood Badge's first Course Director, our corporation's millionaires converted Wood Badge from Baden-Powell's "Religion of the Woods" to the "Religion of the Corporate Cubical."

Proud Eagle writes: First, is the EDGE method really the best method for teaching all things to all people? To see the true effectiveness of EDGE in the hands of the world's top EDGE training experts, purchase a copy of the course outline of "Scoutmaster and Assistant Specific Training." Turn to the "Patrol Method" presentation. Note that ALL references to a Patrol Leader, and ALL examples of a working Patrol have been removed and replaced with ... Wait for it ... Wait for it ... EDGE! That is correct: The county's top EDGE experts removed the PATROL and the PATROL LEADER from the PATROL METHOD presentation of Scoutmaster training and replaced them with EDGE. That is the awesome power of EDGE. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

Fake fairness, WAKWIB. If the moderators did their job, you would not see personal attacks on Scouter.Com. For people like me who deplore the BSA's move from adventure to formulas, EDGE theory is the perfect icon. It is stupid beyond all comprehension. Really. How could any national Wood Badge expert remove the Patrol Leader and any description of a working Patrol from the PATROL METHOD presentation of SM - Specific Training, and replace them with EDGE? It is something that apparently no adult volunteer or professional will defend, except with personal attacks against those of us who oppose it.

Packsaddle, Do you mean the "Mystic" of Wood Badge? "In the summer of 1898 Baden-Powell took a trip to Kashmir which convinced him that the outdoor life, enjoyed purely for its own sake without any military objective, was immensely valuable. Before setting out, he paid considerable attention to his equipment.On this trip he adopted clothes that he would occasionally claim as the inspiration for the Boy Scout uniform; these included the Stetson he had worn in Rhodesia and a flannel shirt, but not the famous shorts. Yet in spite of all the planning, Baden-Powell viewed camping and walking in wild places as an experience which transcended practical considerations. Going over these immense hills - especially when alone - and looking almost sheer down into the deep valleys between - one feels like a parasite on the shoulders of the world. There is such a bigness about it all, that opens and freshens up the mind. It's as good as a cold tub for the soul. "With a collapsible bath in this luggage, Stephe was equipped to cleanse his body as well as his soul. His father's pantheistic book, The Order of Nature was a significant influence upon him, as a sub-heading in Rovering to Success makes plain 'Nature Knowledge as a Step Towards Realizing God'. Baden-Powell also used to quote Bacon's aphorism: 'The study of the Book of Nature is the true key to that of Revelation.' In a bizarre way he managed to combine camping equipment, adventure, and religious sensations in a remarkable synthesis. "In his published Matabele Campaign he described his camping impedimenta as his 'toys' and then went on: 'May it not be that our toys are the various media adapted to individual tastes through which men may know their God?' Quite literally Stephe worshipped what he called the 'flannel shirt life' and everything that went with it. 'Not being able to go to my usual church (the jungle) on Sunday, I went to the garrison church instead,' he wrote to Ellen Turner, more in earnest than tongue in cheek [Jeal, page 203]. "Katharine Furse described [b-P] with more than a hint of tongue-in-cheek as 'the inspired mystic of Scouting', but this was actually how he was seen by millions. This image owed much to his growing tendency to represent Scouting as a form of religion. 'Scouting is nothing less than applied Christianity,' he had written in the introduction to a pamphlet entitled "Scouting and Christianity" in 1917. In 1921, he wrote an article entitled 'The Religion of the Woods', in which he argued that observing the beauties of nature was the best way in which to apprehend God and that no one religion held a monopoly of truth. This made him very unpopular with churchmen [Jeal, pg. 515]. Baden-Powell: The Inspired Mystic of Wood Badge: http://inquiry.net/ideals/beads.htm "The Religion of the Woods:" http://inquiry.net/ideals/b-p/backwoods.htm The Order of Nature: http://inquiry.net/ideals/order_nature/index.htm References to Pantheism in The Order of Nature: http://inquiry.net/ideals/order_nature/pantheism.htm Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net (This message has been edited by Kudu)

Psychological projection or projection bias is a psychological defense mechanism where a person unconsciously denies his or her own attributes, thoughts, and emotions, which are then ascribed to the outside world, such as to other people. Thus, projection involves imagining or projecting the belief that others have those feelings. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

Psychological projection or projection bias is a psychological defense mechanism where a person unconsciously denies his or her own attributes, thoughts, and emotions, which are then ascribed to the outside world, such as to other people. Thus, projection involves imagining or projecting the belief that others have those feelings. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

So much for the honeymoon. SeattlePioneer writes: Kudu has polished his hateful and sarcastic style and repeats it often, with relish. SeattlePioneer's behavior is called "Psychological Projection:" "Psychological projection or projection bias is a psychological defense mechanism where a person unconsciously denies his or her own attributes, thoughts, and emotions, which are then ascribed to the outside world, such as to other people. Thus, projection involves imagining or projecting the belief that others have those feelings." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection SeattlePioneer's personal attacks are the natural consequence of a program that replaces objective standards that can be measured (outdoor skills, leadership that can move a Patrol through physical space), with purely subjective and judgemental evaluation standards ("Leadership and Character"). SeattlePioneer writes: Frankly, if I were moderating these forums I would delete such posts and warn the persons responsible not to repeat them. If they were repeated regularly, I would ban the person from posting. You are already moderating these forums, SeattlePioneer! As a moderator, you already have the power to delete my posts. Yes, YOU have the power to ban me from posting! First let me offend you with my hateful and sarcastic style: For people like me who deplore the BSA's move from adventure to formulas, EDGE theory is the perfect icon. It is stupid beyond all comprehension. Really. How could any national Wood Badge expert remove the Patrol Leader and any description of a working Patrol from the PATROL METHOD presentation of SM - Specific Training, and replace them with EDGE? It is something that apparently no adult volunteer or professional will defend, except with personal attacks against those of us who oppose it. Now I must "repeat my hateful and sarcastic style often and with relish:" For people like me who deplore the BSA's move from adventure to formulas, EDGE theory is the perfect icon. It is stupid beyond all comprehension. Really. How could any national Wood Badge expert remove the Patrol Leader and any description of a working Patrol from the PATROL METHOD presentation of SM - Specific Training, and replace them with EDGE? It is something that apparently no adult volunteer or professional will defend, except with personal attacks against those of us who oppose it. Just for good measure let me throw in a racist attack against your hero Robert Mazucca: Hispanic boys like camping just as much as white boys do. If as District Membership Chair, you use my Recruiting Presentation in a mixed-race audience, you can register 28% of those sixth graders. 28% TAY! That is 28% TAY in addition to your District's current crossover! What is your District's current TAY, SeattlePioneer? 2%? 4%? 8%? What is it, SeattlePioneer? Why won't you tell us? That bad, huh? All the more reason to just try it. Really, what do you have to lose? Now I must "repeat my hateful and sarcastic style often and with relish:" Hispanic boys like camping just as much as white boys do. If as District Membership Chair, you use my Recruiting Presentation in a mixed-race audience, you can register 28% of those sixth graders. 28% TAY! That is 28% TAY in addition to your District's current crossover! What is your District's current TAY, SeattlePioneer? 2%? 4%? 8%? What is it, SeattlePioneer? Why won't you tell us? That bad, huh? All the more reason to just try it. Really, what do you have to lose? OK, Here is how you moderate these forums, SeattlePioneer! Here is how you delete my posts. In two easy steps you can ban me from posting! 1) Locate the column to the left of this post with the heading "Kudu." 2) At the bottom of the column, click on the hyperlink: "Ignore this User." *Poof* Kudu is gone. SeattlePioneer can not read this. His life is pure bliss now, because he lives in a world without Kudu! Yours without Kudu, Kudu Hispanic Recruiting: http://kudu.net/adult/recruiting.htm

Twocubdad writes: Your bias, Kudu, is in your selection of requirements. Bias is the whole point, isn't it? The Chief Scout Executive chose the runaway horse requirement for the national kickoff of his "Be Prepared For Life" campaign, the newest phase of his indoor "sitting side by side with adults of character" mission. He says this will be the BSA "theme" for the next "five or six years." That is his bias. And you yourself said: "There are, however, a number of new things which I think are good additions. Like using the EDGE method to teach tying a square knot." That is your bias. For people who celebrate the BSA's move from Scoutcraft Adventure (which most boys love) to formulas (which most boys hate), the runaway horse requirement is the perfect icon. Like "trenching tents," it is something that presumably no adult volunteer would ever defend. The CSE thought it would get a good laugh. But the laugh was on him. Literally. Still he went on, "So what do we mean by being Prepared For Life: Obviously we don't have to learn how to catch a runaway horse anymore. That's not an important skill!" That is cognitive dissonance. For people like me who deplore the BSA's move from adventure to formulas, EDGE theory is the perfect icon. It is stupid beyond all comprehension. Really. How could any national Wood Badge expert remove the Patrol Leader and any description of a working Patrol from the PATROL METHOD presentation of SM - Specific Training, and replace them with EDGE? It is something that apparently no adult volunteer or professional will defend, except with personal attacks against those of us who oppose it. So asking Scouts which they would rather do, learn how to help with a runaway horse, or learn how to use EDGE to teach a square knot -- can teach them a valuable lesson about the difference between Scoutcraft and formulas. It is interesting to note that EDGE has even been pushed into the Scoutcraft section of the new handbook. Twocubdad writes: Why not make the choice between learning to resuscitate someone by rolling them over a barrel versus by learning how to use an AED? That is perfect Wood Badge Logic: Use the barrel PROCEDURE to prove that the 1911 "demonstrate artificial respiration" REQUIREMENT is not valid. Boys would have fun with both of them, because they are physical things they can do with their hands. So, to prove a point I might ask a medical history enthusiast to spend an evening teaching the Scouts how to preform a hundred years worth of resuscitation procedures, with explanations of what each procedure actually does to a human body. The surprise ending might be that the newest CPR theory recommends compressing the chest only, and skipping resuscitation completely. Twocubdad writes: I can teach that in a church basement using PowerPoint and bore the dickens out of you. My point exactly. Leadership experts can make anything boring. Twocubdad writes: You ignored my question about the Eagle Scout who never walked in the woods with a back pack, which was really to the crux of my point. In this thread? I can't find it. Twocubdad writes: You take the 1910 written program and hold it up as if all 1910 units delivered that program perfectly. You are just making stuff up. Twocubdad writes: I suppose in theory a Scout could make Eagle and never use a back pack, but is that really a problem? Does anyone know of such a Scout? Um, yeah: I have written a great deal about two such adult Eagle Scouts, and how they formed the perfect bookends to my tenure as an adult volunteer in the north. In cool weather my first Eagle Scoutmaster always rented Girl Scout cabins with central heating (a thermostat is necessary to make sure a cabin does not get chilly during the night), microwaves (plural--you need at least two), cable TV, and a VCR. During the rest of the year he cancelled campouts if the forecast predicted that the temperature might possibly fall below 50 degrees during the night. BrentAllen and I found our first common ground over that one. Twocubdad writes: I've built a couple log cabins and done a fair bit of historic restorations over the years. I'm not following the analogy, but here is a treasure trove of old log structure plans: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/shelter/index.htm Twocubdad writes: When I compare the 1911 and 2011 requirements, I'm struck by how similar they are. OK, I have highlighted in red the omissions: http://inquiry.net/advancement/tf-1st_require_1911.htm Some of the significant categories: Observation & Deduction (including signaling): Not fair to boys with ADD. Scouts Pace: Not fair to fat boys. First Class Journey: Not fair to indoor boys. The most significant of these is the First Class Journey because the purpose of Tenderfoot through First Class Scoutcraft is preparation for an exciting adult-free Journey. Without the Journey the purpose of advancement becomes the book: Just getting the stuff signed off. Twocubdad writes: Truth is, there is nothing in the early requirements a Scout, patrol or troop can't do now if they choose to...If two Scouts want to go on a 14 mile trek, they have the option to do so...that doesn't mean you can still do it. That is the Girl Scout Defence. Many girls can't wait until they are 14 so they can join BSA Venturing. Why? Because most Girl Scout Troops do not go camping. Why? Because it is not required. The Girl Scout defence is "Well, we don't have any rules against it." The Requirements ARE the Program. It is what adults feel obligated to learn and spend time on. If we restored the First Class Journey, or Patrol Leader Training (How to take your Patrol on a hike without adult supervision), advancement would have a real-world purpose. But it would not be fair to Cub Scout leaders who want Boy Scout leaders to use Wood Badge to study indoor office theory. From day one (in 1965), Leadership Development has been at war with Scoutcraft. I don't see why Wood Badge can't apply leadership theory to camping Patrols 300 feet apart. Why don't people who like "leadership" find that a fun challenge? Really, why not? I don't see why Wood Badge can't restore the Hillcourt Patrol Leader Training course it took away from Boy Scouts in 1972. If it was part of the program again, Wood Badgers would take pride in applying their formulas and getting it to work. Wouldn't they? Really, wouldn't they? Twocubdad writes: Seems to me the requirements which were dropped, like stopping horses and signaling, have gone the way of buggy whips anyway. The purpose of signaling is to exercise observation: A very important goal of Baden-Powell's Program. It also appeals to boys' natural curiosity about secret codes. The buggy whip "practical modern skills" mentality that is universal among leadership modernists is false because we added Deaf Sign Language and Indian Sign Language in later years. If the purpose of signaling was to be "modern," why add Indian Sign Language? Twocubdad writes: and the ones to visit a civic leader and to participate in a short service project, is very simply to acknowledge in the early ranks the role of leadership, service and citizenship in the program. These public service requirements (in common with the POR requirements) teach Scouts to extract compensation for good deeds. If they are such a good idea, why not pay your kids to go to church? Twocubdad writes: But as both a parent and leader I want more than that for my sons and the Scouts in my troop. All of those things were once the natural outcome of outdoor adventure, in the same way that the natural outcome of sports is teamwork. We could do the same thing to Little League by bringing the boys indoors to learn corporate "team building" exercises. Why not turn sports into something that boys hate as much as Scouting? Twocubdad writes: I want my Scouts to learn leadership skills, even if it is just some basic managerial techniques. Why take away real leadership, the position-specific Patrol Leader Training required to move a Patrol through physical space without direct adult supervision? The answer is that "leadership skills" do not work in the "Real" Patrol Method, do they? So you must dumb the Boy Scout program down to the Webelos III level. Twocubdad writes: I want the chubby, couch-potato kid to be able to participate, advance and thrive in the program, even if he can't or won't participate in all the physically demanding activities the other guys can. Exactly! Dumb Scoutcraft Adventure down to the double-chin level. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

All 24 Feats of Mumbly Peg: http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/games/beard/mumbly_peg.htm

My impression is the opposite of moosetracker's: Youth RUN would be the program as Baden-Powell designed it: The youth actually RUN the Troop. That means NO "Troop Committee" of mommies and daddies in control, therefore No Boards of Review, No Scoutmaster Conferences, No adult "Scout Spirit" wild cards, No Position of Responsibility advancement requirements (therefore a Patrol's best leader remains Patrol Leader as long as he is the Patrol's best leader), no adult treasurer in control of funds, Patrol Leader Council issues "Blue Cards" to Scouts who pitch in to help. Patrol Leaders are responsible for Patrol Hikes without adult supervision, preferably every "fortnight" but at least once a month. The Scouters only find out which Scouts have been promoted to Tenderfoot, Second Class, and First Class when they attend a PLC. Although Patrol Leaders plan and run Patrol Hikes and Patrol Overnights, the flip side is that responsibility for planning the details of whole-Troop campouts can be delegated to the Scouters by the Patrol Leaders after they have decided on a general theme. A typical example of such a PLC (called a "Court of Honour"), can be found at: http://inquiry.net/patrol/court_honor/coh_session.htm Baden-Powell's actual rules and regulations can be found at: http://inquiry.net/traditional/por/index.htm "Youth LED" would be the Leadership Development idea that the "Patrol" is a little learning laboratory designed to "teach everybody how to be a leader." Therefore "Patrol Method" means short-term Patrol Leaders "learning leadership" by planning whole-Troop activities in a PLC, and then practicing management formulas while cooking and washing the dishes. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

Ernest Seton's Indian Water Games can be found at: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/games/seton/index.htm

"I never said that!" Yeah, I edited out the emoticon (I never said that! ) before I posted. The exclamation point still indicates hyperbole when followed with "I said that if we could move Cub Scouting over to Little League, then red-blooded American Boys would grow up hating baseball instead of Scouting." 83Eagle writes: But apparently he would have been better served just waiting around until 6th grade for someone to come to talk to him about Boy Scouts. Not to worry. If Wood Badge trained Little League dads, then in the sixth grade we would recruit him for "T-Ball for Teenagers," where he gets "LLWS" on his business resume by earning hat pins for homework citizenship and EDGE theory, without ever walking onto a field with a bat on his shoulder. Modernists do have a point: Why bother learning how to swing bat? That skill became old-fashioned in the iron age. Its just a bunch of useless and arcane trivia that you'll never need. When was the last time you used a club to kill your dinner? Oh, last Tuesday? I agree with most of SeattlePioneer's points, but especially: Perhaps Kudu's program IS more suitable for those 6th and 7th graders than for boys not yet out of 5th grade. The minimum age for Boy Scouts was once 12. I found that when I recruited sixth-graders in May (at the end of the school year when they were mostly 12 years old), they were much more mature than sixth-graders recruited in September. They took to the Old School Patrol Method right away. Significantly, if they did not go to summer camp because of the short notice, they stuck with the program (in the summer we played Wide Games in the forests because the school gym was closed). I think you will find that 5th grade Webelos crossovers do NOT usually stick around if they skip summer camp the first year. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu 84 Boy Scout Wide Games: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/games/wide/index.htm

83Eagle writes: Kudu has posted about his difficulty or inability to recruit outgoing Webelos When was that? In my retirement I no longer want to be a Scoutmaster, so I volunteer at the adult-run Troop down the street: At about 50 Scouts it is the biggest unit in the country, a mega-Troop by rural southern standards! So now I get to see from the inside the kind of Troop that Cub Scout parents flock to because everything is just so nice and orderly Cub Scouts is a filter. I have my days free now, so I run the "outdoor" sessions of the Webelos program at the local Cub Scout camp. One day last summer it was time to head to the pool but I was missing 3 Webelos Scouts. I found them sitting at a table staring defiantly at their plates. A Den Mother told me that if they wanted to earn their swimming badge, they had to eat their crusts! Three of them had refused to do it! How about that? After five years of Cub Scouts, these three boys still had their balls! And we wonder why they leave. In my former life as a Traditional Scoutmaster, the only problem I had recruiting Webelos was the one time I tried to use my public school presentation at a Crossover. I ended up scaring them all away with the promise of bears and rattlesnakes So I talked to each one individually and got all but one of them to crossover into my Troop. That was NOT appreciated by most of the Cub Scout moms who had for a year been announcing with glee that their sons had "decided" to end at Arrow of Light and not crossover into Boy Scouts. In the end they won by keeping them away from summer camp the first year because (according to their dads) the moms decided they were "too young to be away from home." When our "Feeder Pack" folded, I returned to recruiting in the Public Schools. No matter how much you hate Kudu, the objective truth is that the overwhelming, vast majority of sixth grade boys have either already dropped out of Cub Scouts, did not crossover, or knew better than to join Cub Scouts in the first place. The dirty little secret that you will never learn from the BSA is that when you present Scouting as the kind of Scoutcraft adventure described in our 1916 Charter, 70% of these sixth-grade boys will (in front of their peers!) sign a list asking you to call their parents so they can be a Boy Scout. Of the total audience, 28% have parents that will let them register with the BSA just to go camping (without ANY promise of office leadership theory, homework citizenship, or Eagle on their business resume). For me that 28% translated to about 15 new registered Boy Scouts per year. So Scouting could be just as popular NOW as it was before the introduction of Leadership Development. But to BSA millionaires and militant Webelos III dads, the two million Boy Scouts who left the BSA when we changed our mission from Scoutcraft to indoor office leadership theory were simply "not the right kind." Simply Put: Two million Boy Scouts did not see as role-models, men who sit in office cubicles and fancy themselves to be "leadership" experts. They refused to eat their crusts! Ask ANY Wood Badge enthusiast: Bill Hillcourt's Scoutcraft program, which made boys WANT to join Scouting (and STILL makes boys WANT to join Scouting) is "never coming back" no matter what the cost is to membership numbers, so stop whining! 83Eagle writes: But then he couples that with what a good idea it would be if Cub Scouting wouldn't exist I never said that! I said that if we could move Cub Scouting over to Little League, then red-blooded American Boys would grow up hating baseball instead of Scouting. Win-Win! Yours at 300 feet, Kudu Want to recruit an extra 15 Boy Scouts per year with the Promise of Adventure? http://inquiry.net/adult/recruiting.htm

Our Wood Badge Patrols were spaced about an eighth mile apart, with the Beaver Patrol located on the top of a hill perhaps a mile from Gillwell Field. The course also included a Patrol Overnight in which the Patrols were scattered to the far-flung corners of a very large Scout camp. If it wasn't for these adult training experiences, I would not be... Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://inquiry.net/patrol/traditional/100_yards.htm

1/ How skilled in Scout-Craft were you before you took the course? I had learned backpacking (the skill upon which B-P's program is based) in the 1960s from a friend who grew up in the Adirondack Mountains, 8.3 miles from the nearest motor vehicles. 2/ What skills did you learn on /from the course. a) Contact method for making small kindling from hardwood logs. As a boy, we cooked on our own Svea stoves so we never carried a hatchet or made fires while backpacking. b) I was already teaching the Nine Skills of Leadership. It was a Scout version of the Eleven Skills: http://inquiry.net/leadership/9skills.htm c) It was in Wood Badge that I first realized that a leadership formula is the same as the Creative Problem Solving formula (which I had studied under Dr. Sidney J. Parnes): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_Problem_Solving_Process They both are OK "descriptive" summaries of a mysterious process but do not as a "proscriptive" tool make up for a lack of natural talent. d) Most important thing I learned in Wood Badge is that "Real" Patrol Leadership is based on moving a Patrol through physical space. 3/How much time was spent cooking meals and clearing up each day? A couple of hours. We cooked all our meals on fires, but used propane stoves to heat dishwater. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu Traditional Wood Badge Notebook (Required before 1972): http://inquiry.net/traditional/wood_badge/index.htm

My question is the same question that Robert Mazucca posed to the audience, isn't it? Do you want to learn how to help with a runaway horse, or do you want to be "Prepared For Life"? He then goes on to describe "Prepared For Life" as citizenship stuff: Learning Scout Law indoors "in church basements and community halls and Scout huts [where] young people gather up with adults of good character." Twocubdad writes: Why not present the question as, "do you want to learn more useless and arcane Scout trivia that you'll never need, or do you want to learn some leadership skills you can use to help your patrol be more sucessful?" Not the same thing, is it? My question is a fair description of both the 1911 requirement and the 2011 requirement: What do you want to do tonight? Would you rather learn how to stop a runaway horse, or learn how to use the EDGE method to teach the square knot?" Your question only warns the Scouts of your emotional reaction to something you are not telling them ("useless and arcane Scout trivia"). So why not put THAT to a test? Word it this way: "Do you want to learn how to help with a runaway horse, useless and arcane Scout trivia that you'll never need; or do you want to learn some leadership skills you can use to help your patrol be more successful?" My guess is that (except in Troops where Webelos III dads teach "Character" by sanctioning the Scouts' opinions with Scout Spirit requirements), most red-blooded American boys will still pick the runaway horses. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu Useless and Arcane Scout Trivia: http://inquiry.net/advancement/tf-1st_require_1911.htm

SeattlePioneer writes: And that's a major ande chronic weakness of Kudu's line of argument, which I've now seen repeated many times. It's the error of false alternatives. False alternatives? Ask your SPL to put it to a vote: "What do you want to do tonight: Learn how to help with a runaway horse, or learn how to use EDGE theory to teach a square knot?" If runaway horses are "old-fashioned" and EDGE is "modern," then clearly by Wood Badge Logic, Boy Scouts will vote for EDGE! Test it yourself. What do you have to lose? When Wood Badge switched from Scoutcraft (runaway horses) to formulas (EDGE), two million boys JOINED the BSA! Oh, wait. Two million Boy Scouts LEFT the BSA. I guess they found a "false alternative!" The runaway horse requirement is often used to express the common Wood Badge contempt for timeless Scoutcraft, and the Tenderfoot EDGE requirement is a perfect example of why most boys hate Scouting. Remember, EDGE theory replaced Patrol Leaders in the Patrol Method presentation of SM Specific Training. So you can't find a more perfect example than EDGE of exactly what is wrong with modern Scouting. SeattlePioneer writes: Perhaps if you have an experienced cowboy or animal trainer available to talk about runaway horses, it might be a good topic for a talk. But for the typical person who has no experience dealing with runaway horses, encouraging them to talk about something they know nothing about is just blowing smoke. OK, so you never discuss rattlesnake bites without an experienced cowboy on staff? SeattlePioneer writes: You need a Scoutmaster and other program people with enough experience to discuss the program intelligently, and illustrate it out of their own experience. That's the kind of thing that will command the respect of boys, or anyone. "Illustrate it out of their own experience," huh? For those who are perplexed by SeattlePioneer's anger, it is because I have "enough experience to discuss" recruiting Hispanic Scouts by treating them the same as white boys: http://inquiry.net/adult/recruiting.htm Anybody (including District Membership Chair SeattlePioneer) who uses my presentation can register 28% of a mixed-race six-grade audience by selling old-fashioned Scoutcraft. That is 28% IN ADDITION to your local Council's best efforts at Crossover. SeattlePioneer writes: Baden Powell's idea of "Scouting" came from his military experience and the military experience of elite infantry scouts of the day. Baden-Powell's program was welcomed because the Siege of Mafeking (which coincided with the publication of his Aids to Scouting) was such rare good headline news in a war (in which B-P observed) that the "pale and doughy" indoor English boys had their modern parlour butts handed to them by the "chestnut-hued" Dutch farm boys (boer means "farmer"). Boy Scouting was not (as Leadership Development advocates insist) an attempt to teach the cutting edge technology of the day. No, it was designed to get boys away from the conveniences of "modern" life and into the primitive woods on a regular basis. As such, the requirements of 1911 work just as well now as they did a hundred years ago. First aid methods (CPR, for instance) seem to change every year, so it is not a contradiction to apply modern procedures to the actual 1916 requirements themselves. SeattlePioneer writes: Infantry methods and skills have evolved since 1910, but Kudu's ideas of scoutcraft have not. Oh, you mean if the BSA was serious about "combating obesity," we would reinstate Patrol Hikes and the 14 mile First Class Journey? Not allow cupcakes to collect Eagle badges without ever walking into the woods with packs on their backs? Is that what you mean by "Kudu's ideas of Scoutcraft"? OK then, guilty as charged. By the way, I would not rule out the attraction of the Young Marines, an organization which is presumably based on the "infantry methods and skills that have evolved since 1910," but Baden-Powell was very precise in defining military drill (along with homework Merit Badges) as precisely the exact opposite of Boy Scouting. SeattlePioneer writes: He is stuck in the past with the idea that scoutcraft must remain eternally fixed on such concept as stopping a charging horse. That is "runaway horse," not charging horse. SeattlePioneer writes: The military has adapted to changing times. Kudu has not. And that's the weakness of his argument. That is not my "argument," is it? It is your straw-man. SeattlePioneer writes: But the idea that Scouting must or should remain mired in the Scoutcraft of 1910 or 1916 or whatever is absurd. SeattlePioneer is a troll because no matter how many reasoned replies I make to his "mired absurd" characterization of my position, he just reboots and spews again. His hero the "Hispanics Hate Camping" CSE, trivializes Scoutcraft as "rubbing two sticks together" or "when is the last time you saw a runaway horse, oh last Tuesday?" because to "produce" so many Eagle Scouts, we have lowered our "Eagle" Scoutcraft standards to those of a 1916 Second Class Scout. My position is that Scouting would be more popular if we offered a challenging outdoor program such as the 1916 requirements for First Class. By the way, 1916 is just the standard specified in our Congressional Charter. As I have stated many times, my own preference for "Traditional Scouting" would be Baden-Powell's 1938 international program, or William Hillcourt's 1964 BSA program. Such minimum standards do not rule out "modern stuff." I have introduced Wide Games based on GPS and lasers. My local backpacking program will experiment with MP3 players in April. As some of you old-timers know, I was attacked in Scouting forums for years for advocating a breathable nylon "zip-off" Boy Scout uniform in the 1990s. SeattlePioneer himself attacked me for my support of the BSA Scuba Diving Merit Badge, as if modern adventure somehow contradicts the Scoutcraft standards of 1916. My Scoutcraft website serves 10,000 to 15,000 page hits a day. Many of us believe that a return to the high standards of 1916 or 1964 would increase the BSA's market-share back to its levels before the introduction of Leadership Development in 1972. Anyone can prove or disprove the timeless attraction of Scoutcraft on the retail level by testing my recruiting presentation. Really, what do you have to lose? Yours at 300 feet, Kudu My very first Webpage: http://inquiry.net/uniforms/bdu.htm (This message has been edited by Kudu)