Kudu

Eamonn writes: Doing hikes at night with check points and activities along the way. Here are 43 Night Activity Games to play along the way: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/night/index.htm These games are very traditional, so be sure to pack a copy of Corporate Leadership's Guide to Safe Scouting! Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

Traditional Outdoor Skills Instruction and Testing Games: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/games/mackenzie/index.htm (This message has been edited by Kudu)

neil_b writes: Of these I think only signaling has lost much practical value in our modern world. You can say the same thing about baseball. Swinging a club has not had a "practical value" since the Stone Age. If "practical value" was the criterion for signalling requirements, then why were the Indian and deaf sign languages added as additional alternatives in later years? Indian sign language had a "practical value"? Conversely, did we eliminate the deaf sign language signaling requirement because deaf people have less "practical value" than "urban youth"? Back when "Scouting" was popular it was based on an English activity called "scouting" (similar to what Americans call "playing army"). The basic idea is to learn how to "scout" behind "enemy lines" so as to improve a boy's powers of observation and deduction. In common with tracking skills and Kim's Game; Morse, semaphore, Indian and deaf sign require the ability to "observe" and the ability to deduce meaning (with the added natural appeal that "secret languages" have for boys). Presumably the learned ability to concentrate the mind lost its "practical value" with the invention of Ritalin. neil_b writes: Today it seems that first aid is mostly taught at summer camp and/or at merit badge clinics, depending on the troop. Baden-Powell's version of Scouting is based on the principle of "Current Proficiency." The difference between his "Proficiency Badges" and the BSA's "Merit Badges" is that Proficiency Badges indicate current proficiency. The key badges for each rank, called "Qualifying Badges," must be retested every 12-18 months depending on each badge's importance. The idea that a Boy Scout's ability to save lives should be recertified by an outside agency every year is the very opposite of "Once an Eagle, always an Eagle." Given your interest in Traditional Scouting Skills, you might some day like to learn how Baden-Powell's program works (his "PO&R"). His technical Rules on How to Play the Game of Scouting for Boys, Chapter 12 is the best place to start: http://inquiry.net/traditional/por/proficiency_badges.htm neil_b writes: Map and compass are still important, but I would think seldom receive year-round attention. Baden-Powell's program is based on physical distance: A series of required "Journeys" and "Expeditions" in which a boy's Scoutcraft Skills are tested (without adult supervision) against significant backcountry ordeals of increasing difficulty for every rank after Tenderfoot. The "practical value" of these skills is that they are then used for regular fortnight or monthly Patrol Outings: Boy-run adventures in which what we call "Advancement" is mastered without adult supervision. So in B-P's program "Map and Compass" is not just something that some adult initials in your handbook, nor does it involve a "Scoutmaster Conference" or a "Board of Review." At one time the BSA program did include a simple First Class Journey and the "Real" Patrol Method. Here is a summary of B-P's system of Journeys and Expeditions: http://inquiry.net/advancement/traditional/journey_requirements.htm neil_b writes: I'd like to hear about how other troops include traditional scout skills in their programs. When Scouting was popular, the whole point of learning "Scout Skills" was to play games. Wide Games still rule! See: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/games/wide/index.htm The trick is to read them yourself and then explain your "four new favorites" at every PLC meeting. The basic idea of most Wide Games is to "scout" behind "enemy lines." Treasure Hunt Wide Games lend themselves to GPS units (a Patrol protecting its treasure can "kill" the Patrol with the GPS). A Man Hunt game will move faster if the human quarry must tag with a laser beam a tree near the hunters every couple of minutes. Our Scouts use a strategy based on two older Scouts (each with his own laser) confusing the younger hunters. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

Back in the 1990s some Wood Badge Troops would remove the collars with seam rippers.

MacScouter has some free backpacking cookbooks: Young Backpackers Food Hints and Recipes Gourmet Backpacker Menus More Backpacking Recipes http://www.macscouter.com/Cooking/ We tried a few of these recipes a decade ago, including "Mexican Fiesta" in the Gourmet collection. None of them were memorable. While you are in MacScouter's cookbook section, however, be sure to download the The Geezer Cookbook, by Dwayne Pritchett, and The Dutch Oven Cookbook, by Mike Audleman. Many of these recipes have been "borrowed" and appear in other Boy Scout cookbooks, but they are of uneven quality. So like all recipes, make sure you try them out yourself first when expanding the horizons of Webelos III Scouts! That being said, Audleman's "Pizza Hot Dish" is as effective at getting Boy Scouts addicted to Dutch Oven Cooking on regular campouts, as the Conners' Piute Mountain Pizza is at getting them to cook over a backpacking stove. Dutch Oven Pizza Hot Dish 2 pkg Crescent rolls 8 oz Shredded Cheddar Cheese 1 jar Pizza Sauce 8 oz Shredded Mozzarella Cheese 1-1/2 lb Ground Beef Brown ground beef, drain. Line Dutch oven with 1 pkg of crescent rolls. Spread pizza sauce on dough. Add browned beef, the cheeses and use second pkg of rolls to form a top crust. Bake 30 min. at 350. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

A number of silent movie clips are used in "Scouts! The Rise of the World Scout Movement" (1984) Canada; Using archival footage from Bettmann Archive, British Movietone, EMI Pathe, William Hillcourt, and the Library of Congress, the film traces the rise of Scouting as a world movement in the 20th century and the life of Scouting founder Robert Baden-Powell. Includes interviews with two of the original participants in Baden-Powell's 1907 Brownsea Island Scout camp and his son and daughter, along with footage of the 15th World Scout Jamboree held in Canada in 1983. I wonder what's involved in converting my VHS copy to digital. Some discussion of "Scouting in Popular Culture" can be found at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scouting_in_popular_culture

Consider investing a mere $10.85 for the best backpacking cookbook on earth for Scouts: The Conners' Lipsmackin' Backpackin' See: http://tinyurl.com/4ygv3mt The book is like a candy store, my Scouts go crazy for this stuff. It can be hard to get boys to read cookbooks. I find it works best of you as an adult leader try each recipe at home, then introduce it yourself the first time. To start off, use the Scouter.Com search box to look up their addictive "Appalachian Trail Jerky," a meal in itself. I have used their "Piute Mountain Pizza" (below) to get Scouts hooked on backpacking, although to be an effective recruiting tool you should make up a "rule" forbidding them to make it for regular campouts or at home, as our Troop's "Backcountry Trekkers" do with alarming regularity The recipe works well because of the Boboli brand pizza sauce. If you are unfamiliar with it, the sauce is packaged in backpack-friendly plastic pouches, each supposedly enough for a large pizza. You pack this sauce and the cheese into a pita shell, fry it on one side, then flip it over and fry it on the other. Piute Mountain Pizza Total servings: 1 1 (5-ounce) bag Boboli Pizza Sauce 2 pitas 1 ounce cheese 1 tablespoon oil I cup water Other toppings (optional) Cut cheese into small pieces. Heat oil in frying pan. Cut a 3-inch slice into the side of each whole pita, enough to cause the inside to separate. Cut a small hole in the corner of the bag and shoot the sauce into the holes of each pita. Stuff your cheese into the pita along with anything else you'd like to add. Place in the hot frying pan over medium heat and cook both sides. You can cover the pan, but make sure the pitas don't burn. When cheese is melted, it's ready. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

SeattlePioneer writes: I'm sorta surprised the other adults let a subversive influence like Kudu get his nose in their tents, or whatever they camp in. In "real life" I keep my opinions to myself and so (believe it or not) I'm very easy to get along with. SeattlePioneer writes: Congratulations on a noble effort, Kudu! Thank you SeattlePioneer! Scoutfish writes: "The Green Swamp" of Brunswick and Columbus Counties NC? No, the 110,000 acre "Green Swamp Wilderness Preserve" of Florida: http://www.swfwmd.state.fl.us/recreation/areas/greenswamp.html Scoutfish writes: "But isn't that the mosquito Mecca of the eastern seaboard? In addition to the common mosquito, there was a very large, dark brown species that left a significant blood spatter when hit. They were a "thorn" for many of the younger Scouts' in Sunday's "Thorns & Roses" session, until one of the natural leaders bragged that he was born and raised in Florida so he was used to them and would have been swatting them that weekend no matter where he was. moosetracker writes: You may have planted a seed for which that unit will benefit from. Nah, "seed" is the wrong metaphor, Moosetracker. It implies a slow, nurturing process. When you pick the natural leaders, ditch the indoor boys, and present Scouting as physical distance, the boy-led process "mushrooms" overnight. It's obvious. They understand it right away. That is why before 1972, "leadership" training was all about hands-on, how-to-lead-your-Patrol-into-the-woods Scoutcraft: http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm http://inquiry.net/traditional/wood_badge/index.htm Recently my two "natural leaders" (now the SPL & ASPL) took it upon themselves to plan a weekend 50 mile bike trip. First thing they did was leave the Troop trailer home! They separated the Patrols as far as the campground would allow, and (despite some initial adult objections), they used our "backcountry" model to form their own faster, higher-mileage crew based on ability, overthrowing last year's Cub Scout rule that they had to wait at every intersection for the very slowest Scouts (and I do mean slow) to catch up. Oak Tree writes: I'm getting the impression he didn't go in there and say "You're doing this all wrong. Let me establish a sub-group within your troop that does things the right way." First thing I did when I moved to town was join the local training committee with the intention of taking over all the Patrol and Troop presentations of Scoutmaster specific training. When this Troop's former Scoutmaster moved on, and the current Scoutmaster (and his influential wife) came in for training, my surprise "E" for "Enable" ending of the notorious EDGE Patrol Method presentation was to hand a copy of the Patrol Leader Handbook, Senior Patrol Leader Handbook, Scoutmaster Handbook, and Guide to Safe Scouting to the participants and have each in turn read the same, exact, (at the time) identical passage: "Most patrol activities take place within the framework of the troop. However, patrols also may set out on day hikes, service projects, and overnighters independent of the troop and free of adult leadership...." That was the first time the participants from my unit had heard me talk about the Patrol Method. It made for a very animated discussion Oak Tree writes: Looks like a great job of managing the troop's adults as well as the Scouts. I have always found that if you plan true adventure, the outdoor dads (who consider Scouting to be the mom's job) come out of the woodwork. The adults who like our backcountry treks, the 50 and 80 mile bike trips, the SCUBA dives, and (hopefully soon) the canoe trips are not the same parents who show up every month for regular campouts. True Boy Scout Adventure is all about physical distance. The pure physics of moving outdoor boys through physical distance has its own logic which in turn usually syncs the practical mindset of those adults and older Scouts without a whole lot of discussion. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

I said I'd report back on our first electronics backcountry trip: At 40+ Scouts, the unit down the street from my house is a "mega-Troop" by rural southern standards. It is the largest Troop in the county, completely adult-run, and focused like a laser-beam on advancement to Eagle. Some of the Life Scouts do not own packs and arrive at campouts with wheeled suitcases: Literally the classic "Eagle Scouts who have never walked into the woods with a pack on their backs" (as is their right under the BSA's "ethical choices" mission for the 21st century)! In other words, the opposite of everything I stood for back in my Scoutmaster days. However in my retirement I decided to let go of the Patrol Method and see how the "other half" (90%?) lives. As it turns out the Troop was glad to have me. The Scoutmaster allowed me to establish an ad hoc group of "backcountry trekkers" (I never call it "backpacking"), over which I have complete control. None of the Scouts in the Troop had ever camped away from the Troop trailer so I started with 1/2 mile treks open to everybody in the Troop, with mixed results. On one trip someone slashed open half of the water jugs with his knife, but for some of the Scouts the ability to camp using only the things they carry on their backs was a life-changing event. After the very first 1/2 mile "backcountry fishing trek," one of the two "natural leaders" signed up for Philmont (his dad says he now loves the 20+ mile Philmont conditioning treks, except for the adults who won't allow them to listen to mp3 players on the trail). The other natural leader bought a small backpacking tent and started making small treks from his family's cabin on the Appalachian Trail. He even refused to buy candy at summer camp because he was saving for a backpacking stove! This weekend I introduced electronics. My only rule was that iPods were only to be used on the trail and in their tents at night. It turned out to be a non-issue. Most of the Scouts listened to their mp3 players on the drive to "The Green Swamp," but it wasn't until I got home and looked at the videos that I noticed that only one of the 14 Scouts was listening to his mp3 as they departed Saturday morning from the McNeil campground to Gator Hole (see YouTube URLs, below). The two natural leaders put together a Patrol of the six oldest outdoor Scouts (plus the Troop's smallest Scout who wanted to hike the longer route so he could look for snakes). The distance was to be determined in stages as they progressed. Because of the heat and mosquitoes they decided on a seven-mile route. They had no adult supervision, so the only record we have of their trek is the photographs they posted to Facebook along the way with their camera phones. These received positive comments and "Likes" from their friends back home. One of Scouts even made his self-portrait at the top of a sandy hill his profile picture The seven younger Scouts took a short, direct route of less than three miles. The four adults attempted to walk at least a couple hundred yards behind them to get them used to following trail markers rather than adults, but two of them were so slow that they ended up hiking with us. The adults claimed the picnic table at Gator Hole and we set up our tents there. The small snake expert joined the younger Patrol, and the eight of them set up on the other side of a small creek, about 400 feet from the adults' camp. I visited the "Long Trekkers" campsite (about a quarter-mile away) only once to take some photographs. The Troop's most addicted texter was laying down in the middle of camp with his phone on his chest (see the "At300Feet" YouTube profile photo), but my guess is that the only difference in his texting on this backcountry trek as compared to regular campouts was not how much he texted, but the fact that he did not have to hide it. That was the only electronics I saw around Gator Hole all weekend, but whenever we asked the younger crew members where a missing Scout was, they always knew his exact location because he or "His buddy just texted me." It should be noted that our Backcountry Treks are now by invitation only, so the two Patrols were not a typical cross-section of the Troop: 1) The older Scouts went through the Troop Roster and excluded two problematic older Scouts (whom even their parents can not control). Likewise for a half-dozen small, loud, and disruptive Scouts. 2) Since the mostly older "Long Trekkers" would be hiking and camping separately from the "Direct Trekkers Patrol" I did over-ride their roster of younger Scouts to invite two "annoying" 12-year-olds in whom I saw potential. One of them (the 6'2" --yes, he is 12 years old-- Scout in the video wearing the straw hat who tells the trailing Scout to "Catch up a little bit") filled the leadership vacuum in the younger Patrol, but the other was just plain annoying. At "Thorns & Roses" his reply to the standard "What will you do differently on the next backcountry trek," was "Stay home and watch video games." 3) Although invited, all the Troop's cupcakes stayed home. 4) Perhaps significantly, the "Meds" column on the SPL's sign-in clipboard was completely empty for the first time in the Troop's history. Maybe because we had weeded out all of the out-of-control boys, we did not have any ADD meds on this outing! In summary, although many of the boys in the Troop are Boy Scouts because their parents want "Eagle" on their business resume, these 14 Scouts attended because they all like walking miles into the backcountry with everything they need on their backs. So the use of electronics on this backcountry trip was completely transparent, as might be expected with the kind of boys for whom Baden-Powell designed Scouting. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

Leadership Development surgically emasculated the Patrol Method when it ended Patrol Leader Training (a six month course on how to teach Patrol Leaders [youth] how to teach Scoutcraft to Patrol Members [youth] on Patrol Hikes). Not "inclusive" enough?

I don't understand your question FScouter. The only thing that EDGE has ever done (that anyone can measure objectively) is remove the Patrol Leader and any description of a working Patrol from the Patrol Method presentation of Scoutmaster specific training. Are you asking for a "thang" that can castrate the Patrol Method more effectively? Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

KC9DDI writes: I don't think that leadership development and Scoutcraft are mutually exclusive, But they are "mutually exclusive, aren't they? In theory Leadership Development could be introduced as a running commentary during any practical hands-on how-to course, just as OldGreyEagle did with his 4/16/2011: 7:24:44 PM EDGE annotation of Green Bar Bill's Patrol Leader Training Course. What's wrong with that? But whenever "Leadership Development" is introduced to any practical how-to Adventure course, Scoutcraft (and the "Real" Patrol Method) is excluded. Not just excluded, but excluded with contempt and extreme prejudice as my citations in this thread (or just about any thread) clearly demonstrate to anyone who reads them objectively. Here is one that I haven't quoted in the last month. It is an account from White Stag's point of view of how they successfully kicked Scoutcraft out of Wood Badge and replaced it with leadership theory. Note also the first recorded instance of the new Wood Badge using an ad hominem attack ("He had a vested interest in what had been and resisted every change") to beat down opposition to the victory of leadership skills over Scoutcraft: Some members were very resistant to the idea of changing the focus of Wood Badge from training leaders in Scoutcraft to leadership skills. Among them was Bill Hillcourt, who had been the first United States Wood Badge Course Director in 1948. Although he had officially retired on August 1, 1965, his opinion was still sought after and respected. Larson later reported, "He fought us all the way... He had a vested interest in what had been and resisted every change. I just told him to settle down, everything was going to be all right." Hillcourt presented an alternative to Larson's plan to incorporate leadership into Wood Badge. Chief Scout Brunton asked Larson to look at Hillcourt's plan, and Larson reported back that it was the same stuff, just reordered and rewritten. (See 1965) http://www.whitestag.org/history/history.html Apparently, "settle down, everything was going to be all right" is leadership jargon for "We drove two million Boy Scouts out of the BSA, but Leadership Development was here to stay." KC9DDI writes: But I would say that leadership and training are both skills that can be taught, and should be taught in the context of Scouting. Only if you define "Scouting" in terms that make Scoutcraft irrelevant to your goals, such as the schoolwork route to the "Aims of Scouting," or "Ethical Choices," or "Character and Leadership." KC9DDI writes: I would love to see National pour some of its resources into developing a model where its leadership training material clearly enhances its outdoor program, and vice-versa. Maybe to address the "leadership needs" of Cub Scout leaders if we dumb Boy Scout ItOLS down to the BALOO & OWL level? Be careful of what you wish for, KC9DDI. The tactic of EVERY new "model of leadership training" is to present the "outdoor program" as an obstacle to "inclusiveness." The introduction of White Stag theory kicked Scoutcraft out of Wood Badge because the outdoor program was not "inclusive" of "urban youth." White Stag also killed the Patrol Leader Training course (cited in OGE's commentary above) because a Patrol-based outdoor leadership program is not "inclusive" of the indoor leadership needs of Troop Librarians, Troop Historians, and the like. The introduction of Blanchard theory kicked Scoutcraft out of Wood Badge (again) because the outdoor program was not "inclusive" of the indoor leadership needs of Den Leaders. The subsequent Bruce Tuckman era has seen the CSE's media-assault on the outdoor program as not being "inclusive" of the anti-camping needs of Hispanics. Yes, KC9DDI, any "reasonable" person would agree that Leadership Development and Scoutcraft are not mutually exclusive... ...but that's not true, is it? Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

I wrote: But to offer this Adventure to boys who join the Boy Scout program looking for, um, this Adventure, we would have to kick all the time-consuming Cub Scout office management theory out of Boy Scout training, wouldn't we? SeattlePioneer writes: Sorry Kudu, I don't understand to what you might be referring. I agree, SeattlePioneer. The sentence is not clear at all. I meant ADULT Boy Scout training. OldGreyEagle had said "How about these really neat National Outdoor Badges?" To which I pointed out that the "National Outdoor Badge for Adventure" is a collection of the Adventure requirements that were removed from the sequence of ranks in Baden-Powell's regular Boy Scout Program. To put them "back," (and turn the standard Boy Scout program into actual "Adventure for boys"), the week of adult "Wood Badge" training would have to teach practical skills: Learning how to pack a pack, and then actually backpacking to a Patrol overnight location (if only a quarter mile down the trail). Likewise for packing canoes, and then actually canoeing to a remote overnight location (if only across the Scout camp swimming pond). And so on, for a week of practical Adventure training geared to pulling off legitimate Troop-level Adventure. I have never understood why "leadership" principles can not be pointed on in the context of useful hands-on training for Adventure, as for instance OldGreyEagle did with his running EDGE commentary on Hillcourt's Patrol Leader Training Course. As for the rest of your post, I agree with all of your points, especially "Getting to First Class might take two or three years depending on how motivated THE BOY was." I recently discovered in a family photo album that I was such a "motivated" Boy Scout that I wore my Uniform to my birthday parties! However, upon closer inspection of the photos, it turns out that at 11 I was a Tenderfoot, at 12 I was Second Class, and at 13 I was First Class. Contrast that with a summer camp last year, where I sat in on an Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills class that consists of adults sitting with first-year Scouts in the camp's Trail to First Class program. On the first day the course director announced to the Scouts and the adults that they will earn "90% of Tenderfoot, Second Class, and First Class" (including the five mile hike) in only one week of morning sessions! So the two or three year "Trail to First Class" has become a half-week shortcut Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

OldGreyEagle writes: the worst part of Internet Forums is going back to explain yourself when you thought you hit it out of the park I agree. Legend says Einstein never trusted a physicist who could not explain his most complex theory to a twelve-year-old. As I may have mentioned, for the next couple years my pet project is to design a process to teach twelve-year-olds why adult things like "EDGE" don't really work. That is why I spend time in this forum: Not to convince these adults of anything, but to discover catchy phrases that describe the utter failure of Leadership Development in a way that makes it easy for boys to recognize and resist. So far: Nada. In the meantime I can only say that you forgot the important final "R" in EDGE (for "Reduce to a formula"). Reduction has been the final step of all Leadership Development models since 1965 when the BSA's mission switched from outdoor adventure to indoor office management formulas. In the past I have tried to explain that these formulas (like Karl Marx's examination of capital) fail to recognize the difference between DESCRIPTION and PROSCRIPTION. In other words, what you left out is that once you "Describe" to yourself that "The whole training program is set up for the Scoutmaster to DEMONSTRATE to the Patrol Leaders how to run their Patrol," then as a loyal BSA Trainer (who follows the official course outline), we must SKIP "the whole training program in which the Scoutmaster Demonstrates to the Patrol Leaders how to run their Patrol." Instead we "Reduce" the Patrol Method for Scoutmasters to the Proscription, "The D in EDGE means Demonstrate." Likewise once you "Describe" to yourself that the Scoutmaster "GUIDES them through learning the [applied Scoutcraft] skills required," then as a BSA Trainer we must SKIP this process entirely and instead "Reduce" it to the Scoutmasters in the form of the Proscription, "The G in EDGE means Guide." Once you "Describe" to yourself that "the result being the Patrol is ENABLED to do a campout on their own," as a BSA Trainer we must do away with Patrol campouts and Reduce the Patrol Method to the Proscription, "The final E in EDGE means Enable." That is what all Leadership Development does, OGE. It replaces practical step by step, "how to apply Scoutcraft in a Patrol setting to have an adventure" with a current fad theory by which any generic leader can (in theory) manage the "stages" through which every generic group supposedly pass through. That is why the fake "Patrol Method" presentation of Scoutmaster specific training never EVER mentions a Patrol Leader! That is why Wood Badge kicked Scoutcraft out of Baden-Powell's week-long course on applied Scoutcraft. And that is why you worded the title of your thread the way you did. You say that Hillcourt's Patrol Leader Training course is "an excellent training program" but your subtitle "How do you Teach Youth to Teach" betrays the contrary position: As if it is humanly possible for anyone other than a Patrol Leader to teach Scoutcraft in any context other than a Patrol Hike. If we take six months to teach each Patrol's best natural leader the applied Scoutcraft necessary to get his Patrol out on the trail, all navel-gazing thought process theory becomes trivial. Boys learn by example. In Hillcourt's "Methods of Scouting," "Advancement" is a NOT a Method, it is merely a SUBSET of the "Activities Method." In other words, Advancement is just stuff to do while a Patrol seeks Adventure "out on patrol." The Methods of Scouting: http://inquiry.net/adult/methods/index.htm Hillcourt's Patrol Leader Training: http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

OGE, When the "National Outdoor Badge for Adventure" requirement "4. A backpacking trip lasting three or more days and covering more than 20 miles without food resupply" is added "back" to Life Scout (as in Baden-Powell's equivalent "Bushman's Cord") then a Life Scout might be a competent Life Scout by international standards. Bushman's Cord (Qualifying Venturer Badge) 2) Make a journey of at least 20 miles on foot or by boat, with not more than 3 other Scouts. http://inquiry.net/advancement/traditional/journey_requirements.htm When "National Outdoor Badge for Adventure" requirement "5. A canoeing, rowing, or sailing trip lasting three or more days and covering more than 50 miles without food resupply" is added to "back" Eagle Scout (as in Baden-Powell's equivalent "King's Scout,") then an Eagle Scout might be a competent Eagle Scout by international standards. King's Scout (Senior Explorer Badge) Take part in an expedition with not less than 3 and not more than 5 other Scouts. The expedition may be on foot, boat, or on horseback. The expedition must be planned to last at least 4 days, and at least 3 nights must be spent in tents. All necessary equipment and food must be taken and all meals prepared by members of the party... An expedition by water will cover at least 50 miles and the log will cover such points as the state of the river, conditions of banks, obstructions to navigation etc. "National Outdoor Badge for Adventure," huh? We literally took the "Adventure" out of Baden-Powell's international Outdoor Badges and offer it now "as something 'optional' or 'in addition to' the 'regular' Scouting program." But to offer this Adventure to boys who join the Boy Scout program looking for, um, this Adventure, we would have to kick all the time-consuming Cub Scout office management theory out of Boy Scout training, wouldn't we? Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net (This message has been edited by kudu)

Well put, sherminator.

"National's apparent indifference to the outdoor program," sherminator? "National's not-so-subtle indifference," desertrat? "INDIFFERENCE"???????? How many millions of dollars do you think our "leadership" experts spent on their 1970s program to deliver "no campout" Eagle badges to our nation's poor "urban youth"? That is not an exaggeration: The Leadership Development final solution to the "problem" of the outdoor program was to strip the path to Eagle of any requirements that force our nation's poor "urban youth" into a tent. Now in the same "inclusive" tradition our current chief millionaire executive's final solution to the "problem" of camping is to provide our nation's poor "Hispanic youth" with "entire-family pilot programs" that offer "leadership skill growth" alternatives with the "cultural sensitivity" not to force any poor Hispanic's "twelve-year-old son" into a tent. http://inquiry.net/leadership/sitting_side_by_side_with_adults.htm When he says that "giving traction to these programs is a major resource issue for us and one that we are willing to invest in as we go forward," the only real question is whether by "major resource issue" he means millions of dollars or tens of millions of dollars to finally solve the problem of camping. Indifferent? Leadership Development's 46 year war on Scoutcraft has NEVER been "indifferent." Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

Besides, we're only supposed to 'get mad' over in I&P, right? That's why I avoid it.

packsaddle writes: The deputy I spoke to took my information and suggested that I NOT try to intervene...I can merely promise that if such an invitation to join in a contest begins here, I will end it. Um, you are the deputy here, Packsaddle. That's why you get paid the big bucks: To intervene. You should have "ended" this already.

NJCubScouter writes: I'll ask you again, what do you mean by cupcake? "Cupcake" comes from the only pre "Wood Badge for the 21st Century" era Camping Merit Badge requirement that Baden-Powell would recognize as "camping" for the purposes of advancement: 8b: On one of these camping trips, hike 1.5 miles or more each way to and from your campsite. Pack your down gear plus your share of patrol gear and food. Of course Baden-Powell's minimum requirement was 7 miles in each direction for First Class, more than four times the standard for an Eagle Scout. The "21st century" program offered Camping Merit Badge alternatives to camping for Boy Scouts who will never walk into the woods with a pack on their back: 9b (4) Plan and carry out a float trip of at least four hours. In other words "If you don't like camping, you can float downstream on an inner tube for four hours eating cupcakes." So "cupcake" is a synecdoche for the "21st century" pastry fluff alternative to the meat and potatoes of Baden-Powell Scouting. I hope that helps Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

NJCubScouter, when have I ever made a personal attack on any individual forum member? And in what universe is an Eagle Scout who has never walked into the woods with a pack on his back not a cupcake?

In my Troops the SPL always attended Committee Meetings. The basic idea is that in a boy-run Troop, the Patrol Leaders run the program and the SPL then coordinates the Patrols' plans with the resources that the Committee is willing to offer. Remember that in Baden-Powell's Scout Program there is NO committee of kids' parents. The Patrol Leaders run everything (including the bank account) from what we call the PLC. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

The solution to the problem of Eagle Scouts not knowing basic Scouting skills isn't to just to require any training method, but the solution might be to require a training method that can be shown to actually work. The problem with Eagles is that any cupcake can be one without ever walking into the woods with a pack on his back. Since day one, the whole point of Leadership Development has been to assert that not knowing basic Scoutcraft skills is a GOOD thing: In general, Patrol Leader training should concentrate on leadership skills rather than on Scoutcraft skills. The Patrol will not rise and fall on the Patrol Leader's ability to cook, follow a map, or do first aid, but it very definitely depends on his leadership skill http://inquiry.net/leadership/index.htm Our Chief Scout Executive still never misses an opportunity to trivialize Scoutcraft skills as "rubbing two sticks together" or "catching runaway horses," so as to stress the importance of replacing Patrol Leaders with adult "character and leadership" experts: You can teach a kid about character and leadership using aerospace and computers. The secret is to get them side by side with adults of character. http://inquiry.net/leadership/sitting_side_by_side_with_adults.htm Leadership Development's ultimate denigration of Patrol Leaders occurs in the Patrol Method presentation of Scoutmaster training where the BSA's top "training" experts replace Patrol Leaders with EDGE theory. FScouter is dead-wrong when he asserts that "Kids dont instinctively know how to teach a skill." They most certainly do when a skill (any skill), leads to adventure. Most boys know a natural leader who will teach him how to have adventure. That was the whole point of Baden-Powell's "Patrol System" and Hillcourt's "Patrol Method." Leadership Development took this adventure out of Scouting and replaced it with "training methods." It finally won its long battle with applied Scoutcraft during the BSA's centennial celebration when The Guide to Safe Scouting castrated the Patrol Method with its surgical removal of Patrol Overnights. Without regular Patrol Outings, all any indoor boy needs to be an Eagle "character and leadership" expert is 20 nights of Webelos III camping. That is why we dictate EDGE. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

Have you read the course materials?