Kudu

Troop camping supplemented by a couple Patrol hikes every month? No boring Eagle (schoolwork) Merit Badges? A program of "fun" (hardcore camping) badges? You know...(at least for outdoor boys)...a program designed to make Scouts "completely happy." Sounds like Baden-Powell's program. Just sayin'

packsaddle writes: Kudu too, except sometimes seems a bit obsessed with trying to change what the organization has done to scouting...(my hat's off to Don Quixote, I hope he is successful). Me? Return Scouting to camping by debating "leadership skills" believers on the Internet? Not to worry: I'm just gathering material for a more practical project.

Um, that's Rick Parry: Parry with an "A" for America! http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/394434/august-11-2011/super-pac-ad---rick-perry

Basementdweller writes: guess kudu missed his meds yesterday "Contrary to Wood Badge propaganda" was just a throw-away line: So self-evident that it never occurred to me that anyone would object. If I had it to do over again I would follow your advice and snip it. But all the resulting Wood Badge fury raises the obvious question: What are the implications of the popularity of National Forests to "21st Century Scouting"? Back when I recruited in public schools at the beginning of a school year (always six months after our Council had given Webelos to Scout Crossover their best shot), I was usually able to register an additional 28% of the sixth-grade boys by presenting our program as the kind of "National Forest" adventure described in our National Charter ("Scoutcraft"). http://inquiry.net/adult/recruiting.htm My target audience was all the boys who had dropped out of Cub Scouts (or never joined). If we assume that 5% of the audience were already Boy Scouts, then 33% of the remaining parents registered their sons as Boy Scouts in my Troop without any promise of schoolwork badges, indoor citizenship, corporate "leadership skills," or "Eagle Scout" on a business resume. You know: The kind of stuff that Baden-Powell told us boys hate, have always hated, and will continue to hate until the end of time. If the Scouts in this "neighborhood in transition" were typical, then (using shortridge's figures) an additional two million (2,000,000) boys (now where have we seen that number before?) would become Boy Scouts if Scouting was about National Forests rather than indoor "leadership skills." See TAY %: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=286532 The obvious question is what would a flood of two million (2,000,000) outdoor "National Forest" Boy Scouts do to the program? Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

Then that same someone waits in the wings to lob ad hominem attacks against any who present counterpoints. No, 83Eagle, an ad hominem response to you would center on your choice of "83Eagle." It would speculate that "Once an Eagle, Always an Eagle" is anti-Scouting (in B-P's annual retesting of outdoor skills sense of the word) in the same way as post-Hillcourt Wood Badge (Larson destroyed GBB's ultra-popular life's work); Cub Scouts (For 20 years James West "resisted the creation of a Cub Scouting program for younger boys, feeling that they would take focus away from the main program, Boy Scouts"); and Webelos III camping (none [zero] of the 20 nights of Webelos III camping required for Eagle would count in B-P's program because they are not Patrol Camping, Journeys, or Expeditions).

US Forest Service Visitors Report released: People love their National Forests Written on August 12, 2011 by Sarah McIntyre in News This week, the US Forest Service released their National Visitor Use Monitoring report, illustrating the value that our national forests provide to both recreational visitors and the economic impact they have on nearby communities. In the past year, our national forests attracted 170.8 million visitors, sustained 223,000 jobs in rural communities, and helped to contribute $14.5 billion to the US economy. About the report, Forest Service Chief Tom Tidwell says, This data shows once again just what a boon our forests are to local economies. Because of forest activities, thousands of jobs are supported in hundreds of rural communities. We are proud of helping to put a paycheck into the pockets of so many hardworking Americans. As the land of many uses, national forests not only contribute to our economy, but also provide economic relief for visitors. Less than half of the 17,000 Forest Services developed sites charge a fee to visitors. Last year, the Forest Service interviewed 44,700 visitors to national forests, and found that approximately 94% of those surveyed were happy with their experience of the national forests. Thats probably not a surprise to many, as the national forests provide a place where we can enjoy our favorite outdoor activities, whether it be hiking, skiing, camping, or backpacking. Other facts gleaned from the report: Recreation activities help to sustain 223,000 jobs in the rural communities within 50 miles of the national forests and grasslands, thanks to visitors that purchase goods and services. Visitors spend $13 billion directly in those communities within 50 miles of the national forests and grasslands. For those that do have to pay fees to access national forest lands, approximately 83% are content with the value received. Almost 95 million visitors (over 55%) visit a national forest to engage in an recreational activity. http://www.dailyhiker.com/news/forest-service-visitors-report-released-people-love-their-national-forests/

sherminator505 writes: I confess myself a bit confused. Here Kudu has resurrected this thread by tossing out a quote from Mr. Boyce with neither preface nor explanation. I was wondering how hard it would be to bump 100 threads in which someone attributes the decline of the BSA to the propaganda that Americans don't like camping. sherminator505 writes: What might we do to get back to our initial focus? Simply return Scouting to camping: US Forest Service Visitors Report released: People love their National Forests Written on August 12, 2011 by Sarah McIntyre in News This week, the US Forest Service released their National Visitor Use Monitoring report, illustrating the value that our national forests provide to both recreational visitors and the economic impact they have on nearby communities. In the past year, our national forests attracted 170.8 million visitors, sustained 223,000 jobs in rural communities, and helped to contribute $14.5 billion to the US economy. About the report, Forest Service Chief Tom Tidwell says, This data shows once again just what a boon our forests are to local economies. Because of forest activities, thousands of jobs are supported in hundreds of rural communities. We are proud of helping to put a paycheck into the pockets of so many hardworking Americans. As the land of many uses, national forests not only contribute to our economy, but also provide economic relief for visitors. Less than half of the 17,000 Forest Services developed sites charge a fee to visitors. Last year, the Forest Service interviewed 44,700 visitors to national forests, and found that approximately 94% of those surveyed were happy with their experience of the national forests. Thats probably not a surprise to many, as the national forests provide a place where we can enjoy our favorite outdoor activities, whether it be hiking, skiing, camping, or backpacking. Other facts gleaned from the report: Recreation activities help to sustain 223,000 jobs in the rural communities within 50 miles of the national forests and grasslands, thanks to visitors that purchase goods and services. Visitors spend $13 billion directly in those communities within 50 miles of the national forests and grasslands. For those that do have to pay fees to access national forest lands, approximately 83% are content with the value received. Almost 95 million visitors (over 55%) visit a national forest to engage in an recreational activity. http://www.dailyhiker.com/news/forest-service-visitors-report-released-people-love-their-national-forests/

CalicoPenn, yes silly you.

It is refreshing to see Eagles openly defend Webelos III.

170.8 million people visited the National Forests to learn "leadership skills"?

I wonder if we could find a hundred (100) threads in which the decline in BSA membership is attributed to the belief that Americans no longer go camping? We lost two million (2,000,000) Boy Scouts when Wood Badge stopped training Scoutmasters how to think like outdoorsmen: Dr. John W. Larson, by now Director of Boy Scout Leader Training for the National Council, adapted the White Stag leadership development competencies and wrote the first syllabus for the adult Wood Badge program. Shifting from teaching primarily Scoutcraft skills to leadership competencies was a paradigm shift, changing the assumptions, concepts, practices, and values underlying how adults were trained in the skills of Scouting. Some members were very resistant to the idea of changing the focus of Wood Badge from training leaders in Scoutcraft to leadership skills. Among them was Bill Hillcourt, who had been the first United States Wood Badge Course Director in 1948. Although he had officially retired on August 1, 1965, his opinion was still sought after and respected. Larson later reported, "He fought us all the way... He had a vested interest in what had been and resisted every change. I just told him to settle down, everything was going to be all right." http://www.whitestag.org/history/history.html

Prairie_Scouter writes: At the time Scouting was started in the U.S., we were still primarily a rural country, although this was already changing. People were used to doing things outside, and building a program around outdoors activities fit in with this pretty well. Now, we are primarily an urban society. Things like camping are still popular, but more of a niche activity, I think.

Mr. Boyce writes: I'm not sure the BSA has lost its purpose. There's been a 25% decline in camping since the 1980s. . . I think generally the idea of going outside, camping and hiking, knowing about the natural world around us, just doesn't have much vibrancy with most youth.

Pack212Scouter writes: 1) Getting outdoors isn't a priority for alot of the nation anymore. If they live in a city, they see going to the park as getting outdoors. Most people seem to want to go and see "things". Museums, concerts, going to the beach, etc. When I was growing up you took a trip to see national parks and the like. US Forest Service Visitors Report released: People love their National Forests Written on August 12, 2011 by Sarah McIntyre in News This week, the US Forest Service released their National Visitor Use Monitoring report, illustrating the value that our national forests provide to both recreational visitors and the economic impact they have on nearby communities. In the past year, our national forests attracted 170.8 million visitors, sustained 223,000 jobs in rural communities, and helped to contribute $14.5 billion to the US economy. About the report, Forest Service Chief Tom Tidwell says, This data shows once again just what a boon our forests are to local economies. Because of forest activities, thousands of jobs are supported in hundreds of rural communities. We are proud of helping to put a paycheck into the pockets of so many hardworking Americans. As the land of many uses, national forests not only contribute to our economy, but also provide economic relief for visitors. Less than half of the 17,000 Forest Services developed sites charge a fee to visitors. Last year, the Forest Service interviewed 44,700 visitors to national forests, and found that approximately 94% of those surveyed were happy with their experience of the national forests. Thats probably not a surprise to many, as the national forests provide a place where we can enjoy our favorite outdoor activities, whether it be hiking, skiing, camping, or backpacking. Other facts gleaned from the report: Recreation activities help to sustain 223,000 jobs in the rural communities within 50 miles of the national forests and grasslands, thanks to visitors that purchase goods and services. Visitors spend $13 billion directly in those communities within 50 miles of the national forests and grasslands. For those that do have to pay fees to access national forest lands, approximately 83% are content with the value received. Almost 95 million visitors (over 55%) visit a national forest to engage in an recreational activity. http://www.dailyhiker.com/news/forest-service-visitors-report-released-people-love-their-national-forests/

Contrary to Wood Badge propaganda: US Forest Service Visitors Report released: People love their National Forests Written on August 12, 2011 by Sarah McIntyre in News This week, the US Forest Service released their National Visitor Use Monitoring report, illustrating the value that our national forests provide to both recreational visitors and the economic impact they have on nearby communities. In the past year, our national forests attracted 170.8 million visitors, sustained 223,000 jobs in rural communities, and helped to contribute $14.5 billion to the US economy. About the report, Forest Service Chief Tom Tidwell says, This data shows once again just what a boon our forests are to local economies. Because of forest activities, thousands of jobs are supported in hundreds of rural communities. We are proud of helping to put a paycheck into the pockets of so many hardworking Americans. As the land of many uses, national forests not only contribute to our economy, but also provide economic relief for visitors. Less than half of the 17,000 Forest Services developed sites charge a fee to visitors. Last year, the Forest Service interviewed 44,700 visitors to national forests, and found that approximately 94% of those surveyed were happy with their experience of the national forests. Thats probably not a surprise to many, as the national forests provide a place where we can enjoy our favorite outdoor activities, whether it be hiking, skiing, camping, or backpacking. Other facts gleaned from the report: Recreation activities help to sustain 223,000 jobs in the rural communities within 50 miles of the national forests and grasslands, thanks to visitors that purchase goods and services. Visitors spend $13 billion directly in those communities within 50 miles of the national forests and grasslands. For those that do have to pay fees to access national forest lands, approximately 83% are content with the value received. Almost 95 million visitors (over 55%) visit a national forest to engage in an recreational activity. http://www.dailyhiker.com/news/forest-service-visitors-report-released-people-love-their-national-forests/

dkurtenbach writes: I'm asking WHY BOTHER? Because Scouting is entertainment. That is why I am against justifying the "value" of Scouting in terms of practical skills that sometimes come in handy. Nobody ever says that kind of stuff about sports! The BSA millionaires want to switch from camping to soccer, but what's the point of soccer? WHY BOTHER? For instance, what's with that 300 foot rule? Soccer is just as bad as American football in that regard. Why should any game be based on something as arbitrary as a distance of 100 yards? The way to move a ball is to get rid of those "old-fashioned" 300-feet-between-endzones rules (like we did to the Patrol Method), and teach teams to work together with corporate team-building exercises. You know, the modern stuff we learn at Wood Badge and NYLT (it would not be a Kudu post if I didn't explain why Wood Badge sucks). All entertainment is excitement over impractical skills and arbitrary rules. That's right, the purpose of Baden-Powell's Wood Badge and Green Bar Bill's Wood Badge and Patrol Leader Training was to inculcate a passion for mastering skills that were already impractical a hundred years ago! Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

Eagledad writes: I see the solution is either force scouts to use the same equipment I used back in the 70s, or create new scout craft skills such as the proper use of bungee cords and duct tape. I admit I never learned the proper use of bungee cords. The only thing I know about them is that when I find tents and sleeping bags along the trail, they always belong to a Scout using bungee cords. In my retirement I volunteer for a Troop that includes Eagle Scouts who literally have never walked into the woods with a pack on their backs--they only camp in venues where they can use their wheeled suitcases! Who am I to "Add to the Requirements"? As I "reinvent" Scouting for their more adventurous friends, I have put everything (and I do mean "everything") on the table. Lashings are a tough sell, but when our youngest Scout refused to do the "first year program" at summer camp and took Climbing Merit Badge instead, I was surprised at how many of the basic knots (often in a modified form) he was required to learn and bet his life on. Now 96% of the Troop wants to follow his example and earn Climbing Merit Badge, so I think I finally have knots covered as a practical program element. Recently I also discovered that even the lowly bowline is required. Not for climbing, but 30 feet below the surface for Advanced Open Water SCUBA certification (as it is taught at our local dive shop)! I find most Patrol competitions to be artificial, but we now use the bowline in underwater lift-bag Patrol competitions. dkurtenbach writes: That doesn't mean in any way that the tautline hitch is outdated or no longer useful; it only means that there are fewer ordinary camping situations in which the tautline hitch can demonstrate its usefulness -- unless we create those situations. Dan, be sure to check out "Prusik" at the following URL! http://troop452.com/climbing/merit_badge/index.htm Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

dkurtenbach writes: In other words, under BSA's current Boy Scout advancement requirements and procedures, a badge is awarded for what a Scout has done, and has no relationship to what he is actually _able_ to do. That in a nutshell is the difference between the BSA program and Baden-Powell's Scouting: BSA "Merit Badges" vs. "Proficiency Badges." "Merit" means a praiseworthy moral quality or virtue, or character deserving honor or esteem. In other words an Eagle Scout's "First Aid Merit Badge" means only that his character is forever worthy of our praise and esteem because he once earned the badge, not that he can still actually save a life. This dumbing down by design is celebrated in "Trained Adult" slogans such as "No Retesting!" and "Once an Eagle, Always an Eagle!" Baden-Powell's first aid "Proficiency Badge" on the other hand, means that the Scout has been certified as "proficient" in first aid by an outside agency sometime in the past twelve months. In Baden-Powell's version of Scouting ALL badges (including First Class, etc.) are "Proficiency Badges" indicating that the Scout's "Qualifying Badges" have been retested every 12-18 months. "Qualifying Badges" are similar to our "Required Badges" except that they are all based on advanced outdoor skills or public service skills (no school subjects). See: http://www.inquiry.net/traditional/por/proficiency_badges.htm Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

The Boy Scout program must be dumbed down so that the adults can speed through ITOLS (Spanish for "How to Sign It Off") in a single weekend, just like their Scouts get through "90%" of the "First Year Program" in 5 half-days of summer camp (read 2.5 days: a single weekend). Why the rush? First Class in a Weekend makes Wood Badge available to teach corporate "leadership" theory! It's all about "inclusiveness:" To spend a week teaching Boy Scout leaders how to think like outdoorsmen rather than CEO wannabes would be offensive to "urban youth" (1970s), Den Mothers (WB21), Hispanics (2010 Centennial), and LNT (the Paper Eagles "established campground" Patrol Method). Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

It depends on who you ask, how you ask, and what you want the answer to be It doesn't hurt to be a training staffer and/or FOS presenter, but sometimes you need only know the name of the Camp Ranger's dog. Talk in terms of "backpacking" destinations, even if you plan to hike less than a half-mile. All pre-1972 Boy Scout camps are dotted with abandoned old campsites that can satisfy the "established" requirements of Leave No Trace fundamentalism. They always include a fire ring if you are so inclined. Look for rotting old lean-tos around which the Patrols can pitch their tents. Former summer camps are treasure troves, as well as camps that once had aspirations of becoming summer camps but ran out of money. One such camp (Scouthaven) has an artificial lake at the top of the highest hill where we built shelters in the surrounding woods. In the winter and/or in threatening weather we sometimes rented a good lean-to, and camped our Patrols in the woods around it. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

The prohibition on laser tag is to protect Boy Scouts from thinking bad thoughts. Nothing revitalizes a Troop faster than Baden-Powell's "Bad Thoughts" Wide Games (not yet specified in the Den Mothers & Paper Eagles' Guide to Safe Scouting): http://inquiry.net/outdoor/games/laser_alternatives.htm "Man Hunt" is a whole category of Wide Games. We use red laser pointers to keep these Man Hunt games interesting. Usually the quarry (a pair of older Scouts), is required to point one of their two lasers near the pursuing Scouts every five or ten minutes to show they are being observed. By splitting up, the pair can use strategy to confuse the pursuers. http://inquiry.net/outdoor/games/wide/index.htm Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

Renting a "Troop site" for each Patrol is not necessary unless you are committed to heavy Patrol boxes and therefore need "street access" to unload them. Most Council camps have "primitive areas" where Patrols with lightweight equipment (and/or backpacks) can spread out, if you know who to ask.

Jet, In Baden-Powell's Patrol System, the Patrols were spaced 300 feet apart in a large circle, with the social campfire near the Scoutmaster's site in the center hub. I agree that Council camps are a great resource for Baden-Powell's Troop Camping, if adults can can think outside the box (Patrol Box). Lightweight Camping: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/equipment/lightweight_camping.htm Eamonn, So no Troop has ever used Baden-Powell's 300 foot Troop formation at Gilwell Park? I don't use it at crowded American theme parks either. Brownsea was an experiment. B-P's last word on "How to Play the Game of Scouting for Boys" came 30 years later, and he stuck to the 50-100 yard formation. Roland Philipps used it as well. It was Philipps who actually wrote the famous fake Baden-Powell quote we Americans learn in training: The Patrol Method is not ONE method in which Scouting can be carried on. It is the ONLY method! Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

We have not been discussing Green Bar Bill's "Real" Patrol Method (camping without adult supervision). Supposedly Real Patrols are against the "21st century" rules. That's what happens when we replace nuts-and-bolts how-to training with generic "leadership" formulas: "Trained" indoor people on safety committees have never heard of what the BSA once called a "Real" Patrol. Camping Patrols 300 feet apart is a good approximation. Try it sometime. Scouts who buy their own equipment are always free to camp with their friends, some of whom might be Scouts. That's how my mixed Patrol did it during Green Bar Bill's golden era. It never occurred to us to ask a Scoutmaster for "permission" to camp without adults. Nuts-and-bolts how-to training: http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm

In the Patrol System, 300 feet is the distance Patrols are separated when camping as a Troop. Backpacking "one Patrol at a time" is a Patrol Outing.