Kudu

Horizon, The purpose of separating the Patrols by 300 feet is to give Webelos III Scouts (and most "Trained" adult leaders) their first fleeting glimpse of the potential of what Baden-Powell meant by the Patrol System. At 300 feet, the "natural leaders" in any Eagle Mill will grasp that right away. The whole point is to get the real Scouts away from the Paper Eagles to pursue the "adventure that the boys seek." So (even with two-deep leadership at night), a "backpacking trek of two groups of 12 going out on different trails" is what I would call a 21st century Patrol Outing, given the Guide to Safe Scouting's "Centennial Celebration" victory over the Patrol Method. Such ad hoc Patrols are a good thing. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

Tampa, Yes, "Remote Camping" is the antithesis of "campsites," or Skeptic's "campgrounds." Developed campsites = Webelos III camping. And yes, it is more achievable than it seems. Start small with "backcoutry treks" (don't call it "backpacking") of 1/4 mile. I billed my first one as a "backcountry fishing trek." You can do that on most (if not all) Boy Scout camps if you ask softly about "primitive camping areas." Talk personally to the Camp Ranger, NOT to anyone who works in a Council office unless you know that he or she is a rugged outdoorsman. Check out the National Forests in Florida, and get free copies of the "Swift Mud" Recreation Guide to Southwest Florida Water Management District Lands. http://www.swfwmd.state.fl.us/recreation/ Before arriving at the destination with your Troop, it helps to have a couple adults and natural leaders (your most rugged outdoor Scouts) visit the destination to scope out the "designated camping area" (if any) and (in most parts of Florida) to figure out where to cache the water. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu (This message has been edited by Kudu)

Skeptic, NONE of that is true for "Remote Camping" in a National Forest. With the exception of: AREAS WHERE REMOTE CAMPING IS NOT PERMITTED Anywhere in Laguna Mountain Recreation Area. Flathead Flats Morris Ranch Road near SDSU Observatory Turnouts along the Sunrise Highway Along the Pacific Crest Trail (PCT) between Burnt Rancheria Campground and Pioneer Mail Picnic Ground Picnic Grounds Private Property Noble Canyon Trailhead/Pine Creek Trailhead Filaree Meadow See: http://inquiry.net/images/Nat_Forest_So_Cal.pdf Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

Tampa Turtle writes: At a recent summer camp SM training session we were given a sample camp schedule that showed how to check off 30 T-1 requirements in ONE campout. Yeah, its called "Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills." Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

Horizon writes: The only limitation I deal with is due to my Troop's location in Southern California...Camping limitations make it difficult to get Kudu's 300 feet... That is Baden-Powell's 300 feet, or "The Patrol System in the Rest of the World's" 300 feet How about National Forests? I don't know anything about Southern California so I clicked on the southern-most National Forest I could Google (Cleveland National Forest) and called them up (858-673-6180). As is true for most National Forests, there are no such "camping limitations" so long as you camp at least 150 yards from any developed camp, road, parking lot, or other human structure. Some exceptions do apply to some specific wilderness areas in Southern California. See: http://inquiry.net/images/Nat_Forest_So_Cal.pdf Horizon writes: Backpacking is fine, but requires permits with a max of 12 hikers per permit, so we have to split up the unit (usually 2 patrols per crew), and separate. 2 deep leadership means I need more Physically Strong Scouters to lead these patrols out there. A free Visitor's Permit (AKA "Wilderness Permit") is required (just so they know you are there). There are no regulations regarding how large that group can be, but for more than 15 people you must obtain written permission from the District Ranger. There are no rules about how far apart the Patrols can camp, and (of course) no minimum adult to youth ratio (because adults are NOT required for youth to camp in a National Forest "Remote Camping" area). Your mature Patrols could hike independently during the day and meet up with the adults at night (to satisfy the Paper-Eagle Guide to Safe Scouting). "Adventure Pass" parking in the Southern California National Forests costs $5/day/per vehicle, or $30/year/per vehicle. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

Yeah, the first year program director at Camp Rainey Mountain brags that a new Scout can earn "90% of the Tenderfoot through First Class requirements" in five (5) half-days. Their "Introduction to Outdoor Leadership" course consists of adults sitting around watching eleven-year-olds earn "90% of the Tenderfoot through First Class requirements" in five (5) half-days. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

That is a moral argument. Before the invention of Leadership Development and its PORs & Paper Eagles, the purpose of training was practical preparation for Patrol Adventure.

and NYLT

OGE: In a word: Training. Follow the International Olympic Committee's example and kick the "leadership" experts out of Wood Badge.

It doesn't matter what Green Bar Bill wrote in 1928. Setting aside the insurance myth, one Green Bar Bill condition that "doesn't matter" is the Scoutmaster's permission to set off on a Patrol Overnight. As soon as you introduce lightweight camping (if only to backpack a quarter-mile from the Troop trailer) and separate the Patrols by Baden-Powell's 50-100 yards, the natural leaders will understand the Patrol Method. At that point the only leverage you have over Patrol Overnights is access Troop gear. The male instinct to accumulate tools will quickly circumvent that. Perhaps that is why so many Troop Method units forbid Scouts from using their own tents: To discourage Patrols from becoming self-aware? In 1928 most Scouts had a LOT more independence as youths than in 2010 I don't know about 1928 but in the 1960s it never occurred to us to ask the Scoutmaster's "permission" to camp in the fields behind our house when we were little, or to drive a hundred miles to the Adirondacks as we got older. Likewise as a Scoutmaster, no natural leader ever asked me for "permission" to hike and camp along old railroad land or to drive 250 miles to the Adirondacks. How many Patrols drove 500 miles round-trip in 1928? In real life, neighborhood "Patrols" have always been mixtures of Scouts and their non-BSA outdoor friends. The only "permission" that matters is parental. One thing I do differently as a result of the health & safety committee's centennial attack on the Patrol Method is that I no longer encourage mature Patrols to conduct loop overnights from a Troop basecamp. Perhaps it can be argued that we have two-deep leadership in the general area; but since I am no longer a Scoutmaster, I have the gung-ho Scouts plot their own longer day-route and then meet up with the adults and younger Scouts at a common destination, where they camp about a quarter-mile away. Another concession is that I only allow cooking on backpack stoves, and use Baden-Powell's practice of social campfires only in the central adult area, if at all. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

RR writes: I am trying hard to get a decent core of boys who can be trusted - yes, trusted - to act as independently as that. You can't beat Baden-Powell's method for sorting that out: His minimum standard of 50-100 yards between Patrols. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

bnelon44, Interesting that the wording has not been changed. I wonder if the same is true for page 22 of the new printings of The Scoutmaster Handbook RR, "and overnighters" has been removed from the same passage that appears in the Guide to Safe Scouting. William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt's Patrol Method defines a Patrol that hikes without adult supervision as a "Real Patrol," and Patrol Overnighters as extended Patrol Hikes. So the current Patrol Leader's Handbook's insistence that "Most patrol activities take place within the framework of the troop" is what critics of Leadership Development call the "Troop Method." Compare that to Green Bar Bill's Handbook for Patrol Leaders, which devotes 189 pages of instruction on how to lead "Real" Patrol Hikes and Patrol Campouts without adult supervision. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

"Most patrol activities take place within the framework of the troop. However, patrols may also set out on day hikes, service projects, and overnighters independent of the troop and free of adult leadership..." Page 28.

Radio Shack sells a really cool laser which projects a visible green beam, like a really long Star Wars light saber. That's really helpful to use as a pointer. Instead of waving your finger at the sky saying, "see there's the handle and theres the dipper part and if you trace the last two stars...." meanwhile everyone is nodding, whether they see what you're talking about or not. I bought the "Green Laser Pointer 25 mW Professional Military Astronomy Grade by Green" from Amazon for about $12. This model has since doubled in price, but $12 seems to be a common price (at times). As I understand it, the beams of green pointer lasers are all visible (unlike red lasers--which we use for Wide Games). Evidently most Scouts have never seen one before because they never fail to impress! You will notice a remarkable number of negative reviews for green lasers. When I first got mine, the awesome green beam faded away after an evening of passing it around the campfire. I replaced the factory AAA batteries with Energizer 900mAh rechargeable batteries but it had become a weak dud. However when I used Energizer Advanced Lithium batteries, the unit was again truly awesome. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

eaglenjake writes: Summer camp seems like a far better place to take camping merit badge than in the school cafeteria... That is my point: If summer camp had anything to do with "camping," we would use the Patrol Method rather than building million-dollar cafeterias eaglenjake writes: We'd hope the boys would come away with some shared knowledge from a counselor who's more their age then the troops MB counselor. I'm probably old enough to be your MB Counselor's daddy! Why not turn Camping Merit Badge into old-school adventure? http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=323858&p=3

So why do you let your Scouts take Camping Merit Badge at summer camp?

That is what "Blue Cards" are for: If your Troop has special knowledge in a subject, then offer it as special "High Adventure" outings. Why sign away permission to earn that Merit Badge elsewhere? As for x-z, it is not "adding to the requirements" if you present Wilderness Survival (or any other subject) as Adventure rather than a Merit Badge. Start small: Figure out which Scouts are the natural leaders and invite each one personally and individually to help you plan the first outing (even if they "already have the badge"). Exclude grossly immature ("annoying") Scouts until they get older. Given that Bear Grylls is UK Chief Scout, building a successful "Troop Cult" should be a no-brainer. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

Horizon writes: I enjoy Kudu's participation, and have saved many portions of his website. When he talks about 300 feet... Forever-A-Scout writes: If my sons can't complete a 14-mile round trip solo hike on their own... Eagle by 13 is about right, given what is required. Remember that none (0) of our camping requirements would count in Baden-Powell's program because his Scouting is based on nights of Patrol Camping (at least 150-300 feet between Patrols), plus a series of "Journeys" and "Expeditions" beginning with an unsupervised 8 mile day-Journey for Second Class. See: http://inquiry.net/advancement/traditional/journey_requirements.htm In my retirement I now volunteer for a local "advancement-oriented" Troop. It is a whole new world for me: We have Eagle Scouts who have literally never walked into the woods with a pack on their backs (they camp only in venues that accommodate wheeled suitcases). However, as Seattle has pointed out in the past: Yes, an Eagle Mill attracts a large number of parents who force and/or bribe their sons to earn Eagle, but the resulting mega-Troop includes a surprising number of Scouts whom itch for real adventure. Given that our local unit is an adult-run Troop: I simply introduced my own High Adventure program. My first proposal for a "Backcountry Fishing Trip" did not survive the popular vote, but I held it anyway. I started with quarter-mile backpacking trips. This neatly excluded all the indoor boys who had voted against it. I appointed the Troop's two older natural leaders plus two younger natural leaders, and then separated the two ad hoc Patrols by 300 feet. Camping away from the Troop trailer for the first time in their lives opened their eyes to a whole new world. One of the natural leaders signed up for Philmont right away, and the other started making short trips on the Appalachian Trail near his family's vacation home. The way our treks work is the older Scouts have total control over who joins their ad hoc Patrol. This excludes any Scout whom they consider "annoying," including most (but not all) of the younger Scouts plus two older ("An F-150 upon earning Eagle") Scouts whom they can not control. This Patrol hikes a longer route without any supervision, and then usually camps about a quarter-mile from the adults. The ad hoc younger Patrol is also by invitation only (mine). I currently exclude two grossly immature Scouts and the two F-150s from treks over a mile. This Patrol hikes ahead of the adults and then camps about 300 feet from us, but any failure what-so-ever to obey the younger natural leaders parks the offender and his buddy near the adult Patrol. Contrary to the general Troop policy, both groups are free to use electronics in the backwoods. Here are videos of the two Patrols setting off on our last "Backwoods Trek:" http://www.youtube.com/user/At300Feet?blend=1&ob=5 One of the older natural leaders served as the Canoe Merit Badge counselor for six weeks at summer camp and is starting a Troop backwoods canoe program. Two of our dads have started a SCUBA program. Our very smallest cross-over skipped the first year program at summer camp and took Climbing Merit Badge instead. This has sparked interest in a climbing program (using camp towers & staff), among Scouts who had previously thought only in terms of COPE. These two programs are not Patrol-based. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

Has anyone seen the new edition? Does it include the national "health & safety" committee's new anti-Patrol Method policy? Kudu Back from Woodruff

11yo Boy Scout with the two species mentioned in the article: A couple rat snakes, plus a copperhead found at summer camp: "Ryan's Snake Pit" http://www.troop452.com/ryans_snake_pit/index.htm

A collection of games designed for special needs Boy Scouts and Cubs: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/games/disabled/index.htm

The term "Charter Night" is common in units sponsored by Masons, Rotarians, and Lions. In Traditional Scouting it is known as "Old Scouts Night" or "Alumni Night." It dates back to a by-gone era when Scouting was based on the passing on of traditions, rather than the ethics of disposability and pop management fads. "Alumni Activities "Troops that have an Old-timers group organized usually bring them together at a dinner once a year. At this dinner they discuss old times and hear about the progress the Troop is making. At another time Old-timers are invited to visit the Troop meeting or a special Reunion Hike may be arranged for them..." (Green Bar Bill). For more information, see: http://inquiry.net/adult/scout_alumni_for_troop.htm Some Troops conduct a yearly "Reunion Hike" or "Old Timers' Hike," limited to adults and "Senior Scouts:" "Preliminary: Many Troops have established the tradition of an Old Timers' Hike on the last Saturday or Sunday of the year, when previous members are home for the Christmas holidays. An adequate attendance promotion is required and a suitable program may be developed. Old Timers and Senior Scouts of the Troop (i.e. boys at least 15 years of age) take part...." For more information, see: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/hikes/reunion_old_timers_hike.htm "Old Scouts" were integrated into Baden-Powell's program: See "274E" and follow rule references from there: http://inquiry.net/traditional/por/groups.htm Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

Eagledad writes: I dont see how we could ever go back to the good old days of the 90s much less of the 50s when the majority of the scout leaders today know little more about scouting than the youth they are leading. Its one thing to have been a youth who camped 100 yards away from the adults and understand the feeling of independence, its something different when the adult has no outdoor or scouting experience and thinks that all kids want to do is poke fires with sticks and chase each other round like Lord of the Flies. 100 yards is a science fiction fantasy. Scouting for Boys was a "science fiction fantasy" when it was published. It described an alien world of outdoor skills and unsupervised independence. Then as now, boys were an indoor species. Scouting for Boys was based on Baden-Powell's success in training his "pasty white" English "parlour boys" how to outmaneuver the superior "chestnut hewed" outdoor Dutch Boers at Mafeking ("Boer" is Dutch for "farmer"). Scout leaders a hundred years ago knew little more about Scouting than the youth they were leading. No adult had Scouting experience, and no doubt they thought that all kids wanted to do was poke fire with a stick and chase each other around like Baden-Powell suggested in Scouting for Boys. Then as now, no "hands-on" training existed to teach Patrol Leaders how to lead a Patrol into the woods. The 50-100 yard guideline was Baden-Powell's do-it-yourself Patrol System standard long before he invented Wood Badge. It takes the same Scoutcraft skills to set Patrols up three feet apart as it does to set them up 300 feet apart. So the real variable is leadership. In other words, the Beaver Patrol might by pure chance elect a mature natural leader, but six months from now when it is somebody else's "turn" to be Patrol Leader, the new PL's incompetence might cause injury in the absence of close adult supervision. As one practical person pointed out recently: The use of Traditional Methods is not a suicide pact! If a Patrol makes bad choices, there is NO reason that you (or the PLC) must allow them to camp at the same distance from the adults as a mature Patrol. If you actually try Baden-Powell's minimum standard (MINIMUM standard) of "at least" 50-100 yards between Patrols, you will find that many anticipated "problems" are self-correcting. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

Yeah, pick up a couple dozen "Dragon Drenchers," and learn how to program our infrared home entertainment remotes to simulate laser tag frequencies. We should be good for a couple of years: Until the "health & safety" PC Police get back up to speed! Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

BadenP writes: While your debate has been interesting it has now deteriorated into a debate of minutia. I agree, and if anything such minutia only discourages Scouters from just taking the experimental plunge of separating their Patrols by Baden-Powell's 50-100 yards. Thanks for stepping in. I assumed that the only people actually still reading where the moderators Yours at 300 feet, Kudu