Kudu

Camping 300 feet away from other Patrols is the monthly ADVENTURE that creates the demand for the practical skills (how to orient a map and use a compass) necessary to make the Patrol journeys taught in Hillcourt's six month Patrol Leader course cited above. ( http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm ) Hillcourt's Patrol Leader adventure formula was 1. Be a Leader [physically in the lead] 2. Be a Friend 3. Be Ahead [in Scoutcraft knowledge]. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

And what red-blooded American boy does not want to be a "manager of learning"?

Maybe the clever formula that what y'all are looking for is "DCSD": Before the BSA's top national training committee of Wood Badge experts used EDGE to "explain" the "Patrol Method" to new Scoutmasters without "Explaining" what a Patrol is or what a Patrol Leader does, they used "Directing, Coaching, Supporting, and Delegating" to define the "Patrol Method" without ever mentioning the Patrol Method. Note that the "Patrol Method" means adults "directing" random Scouts without even pretending to work through a Patrol Leader: "Directing--that is, giving clear guidelines. Telling Scouts, 'Have the members of your patrol use buckets of water to put out the campfire, and then we can remove any traces that it was here,' is one example of directing." This "modern evolution" of the Patrol Method (adults not even pretending to work through a Patrol Leader), is also our Chief Scout Executive's brand of "leadership" when he promotes Wood Badge: "Our goal is not to teach someone to rub two sticks together and make a fire. But when you rub two sticks together and make a fire side by side with an adult of good character, you're going to learn about who you are and go on to lead men...You can teach a kid about character and leadership using aerospace and computers. The secret is to get them side by side with adults of character. We run the risk of becoming irrelevant if we don't adapt to things that attract kids today... We recognize the evolving science of leadership. We've had CEOs on our board say they want to send their people to Wood Badge, our adult leader training program, because we use state-of-the-art techniques" (Chief Scout Executive Robert Mazzuca) http://inquiry.net/leadership/sitting_side_by_side_with_adults.htm I hope that helps Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

Beavah writes: Maybe the learner is ADHD and won't sit still for Explain or Demonstrate Baden-Powell designed Scouting with the assumption that all boys are ADHD It's all about doing stuff with your hands. Remember that the BSA's top EDGE experts do not Explain or Demonstrate the Patrol Method in the Patrol Method session of Scoutmaster training either. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

You will be disappointed with the still photographs from a video camera, especially in low light underwater conditions! The advantage of mucho megapixels is that you can crop severely after shooting with the wide angle lens you need underwater. I took photographs of two Troops earning Scuba Diving Merit Badge this week. Click on "Georgia Scout Troops: 994 Woodstock, 75 Atlanta" at: http://inquiry.net/scuba_diving_merit_badge/index.htm Cropped photos are indicated by a "-" after the file number. For these photos I used a Canon S90 in an Ikelite case. Canon has replaced the S90 with the S95 model which includes HQ video. Both Canon models have an "aquarium" setting that bumps up the red to counteract the blue shift underwater (see above photographs to judge the effect). For more exact skin tones they can also shoot in RAW. Try that with a video camera I've never had a problem with the case leaking, so I would not limit my choice of cameras for that reason. I do use "Moisture Munchers" that signal by turning from dark blue to white if the humidity inside the case should ever rise. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

The BSA's "method" was to spend six months teaching the most gifted leader in a Patrol how to take his Scouts on Patrol Hikes without adult supervision. After he proved his competency, the adventure multiplied to extended Patrol Hikes call Patrol Overnights. Here is the whole six month course, which includes teaching Patrol Leaders how to teach Scout skills while out on adventure: http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm

Old_OX_Eagle83 writes: Eagle 92, James Wests policy was superceeded by a new policy in 1972 The new policy was to drop the Uniform as a "Method of Scouting" in 1972, no doubt just to twist the knife in Bill Hillcourt's back after destroying his highly successful program of Scoutcraft, The Patrol Method, and Wood Badge. Turning the neckerchief into a dress designer's under-the-collar fashion accessory was Oscar de la Renta's 1980 contribution to the downward spiral. It was James West who introduced the Patrol Method on September 21, 1923. A History of the Methods of Scouting: http://inquiry.net/adult/methods/index.htm Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

All this angst over teaching Scouts how to teach Scoutcraft only dates back to when Wood Badge declared that Scoutcraft and Patrol Leaders are not important: In general, Patrol Leader training should concentrate on leadership skills rather than on Scoutcraft Skills. The Patrol will not rise and fall on the Patrol Leader's ability to cook, follow a map, or do first aid, but it very definitely depends on his leadership skill. http://inquiry.net/leadership/index.htm Our goal is not to teach someone to rub two sticks together and make a fire. But when you rub two sticks together and make a fire side by side with an adult of good character, you're going to learn about who you are and go on to lead men...You can teach a kid about character and leadership using aerospace and computers. The secret is to get them side by side with adults of character. We run the risk of becoming irrelevant if we don't adapt to things that attract kids today... We recognize the evolving science of leadership. We've had CEOs on our board say they want to send their people to Wood Badge, our adult leader training program, because we use state-of-the-art techniques http://inquiry.net/leadership/sitting_side_by_side_with_adults.htm Wood Badge finally won its 45 year war against Scoutcraft and Patrol Leaders during the centenial when (according to popular wisdom) we finally outlawed Patrol overnights. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

Chrispy-chip wrote: I took the trainers edge course a while back, and one topic "effective teaching" I believe was made by bela banathy, although he calls it something else, i know that he has written articles in teaching journals although most deal with teaching a foriegn language with using a systems approach (he was an instructor at the defense language institute and I think a psychologist). Welcome to the forums, Chrispy-chip. When we switched from William Hillcourt's highly popular Scoutcraft Patrol Method to Bela Banathy's White Stag method, two million Boy Scouts quit Scouting. Maybe that is the kind of methods study that qwazse is looking for. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

perdidochas writes: Nice dodge Kudu, but you didn't answer the question other than with silly remarks. A "dodge," perdidochas? You will certainly fit in well at Wood Badge. Do you really not understand? Beavah proposed doing away with "Explain" and "Demonstrate" altogether and to see what happens if a Troop Guide shows new Scouts how to set tents up without talking at all: I always laugh when someone tries to explain how to set up a tent. Just do it. In fact, next campout challenge your TG to set up tents with new scouts without talking at all, and see if it makes it better or worse. To satisfy qwazse's apparent desire to find a scientific basis for EDGE, I proposed comparing new Scouts who get "taught to" by someone like you, against new Scouts who simply help someone set up tents in complete silence: test Beavah's example: Study new Scouts who have been forced to listen to an EDGE presentation on how to set up a tent, and test them against new Scouts who have spent the same amount of time using their hands to help someone set up tents in complete silence. What part of a scientific comparison between your approach, and that of a "just do it" French mime camping enthusiast, don't you understand, perdidochas? Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

Yeah, what desertrat77 said

perdidochas writes: Please explain how that is not using their hands and eyes to learn how to set up a tent? Perhaps naively, qwazse assumed that "experts" in "Instructional Design" tested EDGE scientifically before forcing our very youngest Boy Scouts to learn it for Tenderfoot. I hope that qwazse has learned that professional educators do not understand the scientific method. I propose the UNSINKABLE RUBBER DUCKY TEST: 1. Form a circle on a local field comprised of the nation's best 100 Wood Badge Staffers with advanced degrees in education. 2. Inside the circle, divide 16 new Scouts into two Patrols, and tell them they will sleep in the tents they set up. Patrol A will have setting up tents "Explained" and "Demonstrated" and then be "Guided" through and "Enabled" by the nation's foremost Wood Badge Instructional Design expert. Patrol B will just set up a bunch of tents while working with a hard-core camper French mime who does not speak a word of English and has never heard of EDGE. 3. After they have spent an equal amount of time, the two Patrols of new Scouts then test their ability to set up their own tents for the night without the presence of either of the two adult clowns. 4. I submit that Patrol B will set up their tents faster than Patrol A because EDGE is a bad thing. 5. The interesting part of the test comes next: After 100 Wood Badge Staffers witnessed the French mime trounce the national Wood Badge expert, every one of the 100 Wood Badge Staffers must write down which Patrol was faster, the EDGE Patrol or the French mime Patrol. 6. Then we allow the 100 Wood Badge Staffers do what Wood Badge Staffers do best, drink coffee and sit around talking about their unsinkable rubber duckies. 7. I submit that within a few hours, all 100 Wood Badge Staffers will agree that the French mime used the EDGE method. That is what Beavah means by "Our brains are wired to find patterns and fill in da blanks." Rubber Duckies at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

We often hear now that the Boy Scout program is too early to introduce adventure, that boys should wait until Venturing before doing the kinds of things that once made Scouting so incredibly popular. When you present Scouting as the kind of Scoutcraft adventure described in our 1916 Charter, 70% of sixth-grade boys will (in front of their peers!) sign a list asking you to call their parents so they can be a Boy Scout. Of the total audience, 28% have parents that will let them register with the BSA just to go camping (without ANY promise of office "leadership" theory, homework citizenship, or Eagle on their business resume). For me that 28% translated to about 15 new registered Boy Scouts per year. I wonder how it would work with 14 year-olds? http://inquiry.net/adult/recruiting.htm Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

qwazse writes: But, all of that would not speak to the environment where it's explicitly required to be implemented. EDGE is specifically required to be implemented in the Patrol Method presentation of Scoutmaster Specific Training, isn't it? Really, isn't it? Therefore the Patrol Method presentation is the perfect place to study its effectiveness. Easy and straight-forward: Measure the participants understanding of the Patrol Method before and after learning EDGE in the session EDGE experts fraudulently present as the "Patrol Method." After you have studied what EDGE does to adults, THEN test Beavah's example: Study new Scouts who have been forced to listen to an EDGE presentation on how to set up a tent, and test them against new Scouts who have spent the same amount of time using their hands to help someone set up tents in complete silence. My guess is that the EDGE kids will be significantly slower than the kids who learned with their hands and eyes. qwazse writes: We need to know its impact on youth as it pertains to teaching a scouting skill. No, a scholarly study would also measure the BIG PICTURE, what it ACTUALLY does (its impact on adult volunteers), not merely the purpose told by "leadership" experts who dismiss Scoutcraft as "trenching tents" or knowing how to help with a runaway horse. In other words, people who hate Scoutcraft present EDGE as a way to teach Scoutcraft, but Scoutcraft (and the Patrol Method) is EXACTLY what Leadership Development was designed to replace: In general, Patrol Leader training should concentrate on leadership skills rather than on Scoutcraft Skills. The Patrol will not rise and fall on the Patrol Leader's ability to cook, follow a map, or do first aid, but it very definitely depends on his leadership skill http://inquiry.net/leadership/index.htm Face it, qwazse: If you want a scholarly article on EDGE you must write it yourself. That is how all human progress begins: by recognizing a need. Just don't limit yourself to testing only the stated aims of "leadership" snake oil gurus. Test also what the venom does to those who administer it Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net (This message has been edited by Kudu)

qwazse writes: but this is anecdotal evidence. What I'd really like to see is some trial Easy enough to do: Study the presentation in which EDGE theory itself is taught to Scoutmasters and Assistant Scoutmasters: the Patrol Method presentation of Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmaster Specific Training. 1) Before the presentation, test the participants' knowledge of the function of a Patrol Leader and a Patrol. 2) Monitor the presentation to verify that the staffer presents only the official course content. 3) Directly after the presentation, again test the participants' knowledge of the function of a Patrol Leader and a Patrol. If EDGE theory was applied according to the specifications of the national training committee (the BSA's highest authority on EDGE theory), then the participants will NOT have learned a SINGLE THING about the Patrol Method. Not a single thing. That is the purpose of EDGE theory (and the purpose of all Leadership Development): to replace the "Real" Patrol Method with snake oil concepts such as "innovation," "thinking outside the box," and "21st century thinking." So a real "scholarly" study of EDGE would measure the participants' susceptibility to fraud and cult thinking before and after they spend 20 minutes learning about EDGE theory in a presentation fraudulently presented as "The Patrol Method." Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

Maybe the leadership enthusiasts have a valid point. The vast majority of 21st century Americans think of "camping" in terms of a recreational vehicle or a cabin with electricity. Microwaves are standard fare, having replaced gas stoves decades ago. Mom cooks the meals. Cooking should be a 21st century leadership opportunity: Explain to your mommy that you are hungry. Demonstrate that you are in a bad mood because you have not eaten. Guide your mommy to the kitchen. Enable her to cook your meal. The object of cooking is to eat, right? People who want to return to standards of the last century will insist that not requiring the Scout to microwave his own meals weakens the program, but at one time, the practice was to dig a trench around a tent - we no longer do that. Is not trenching a tent weakening the program? Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

Beavah writes: I wonder if they'll revamp EDGE as part of da process of converting over to da Maxwell stuff? According to the Website it will, at least in SM Specific Training where EDGE replaced Patrol Leaders and Patrols in the Patrol Method presentation. For the purposes of training in the new program, a Patrol Leader will be known as "Leader 101," ASPL as "Leader 201," SPL as "Leader 301," and JASM as "Leader 401," so as to standardize leadership roles in Boy Scouts, Varsity Scouts, and Venturers. Following the precedent established in SM Specific Training of presenting the word "Patrol" as synonymous with any generic subunit, it will now be known as a "Maxwell." Beavah writes: Also looks like the new ULS materials are goin' to continue the TLT tradition of being all-indoors stuff. Indoor training is more clean and modern, which can only strengthen our program. At one time, the practice was to dig a trench around a tent - we no longer do that. Is not trenching a tent weakening the program? Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

BSA training experts replaced with EDGE the Patrol Leader and any "Explanation" or "Description" of a working Patrol in the Patrol Method presentation of Scoutmaster Training. Maybe they can also replace the glow of an evening campfire with the magic of EDGE! Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

themaelane writes: My grandma said she asked the local people if they wanted, and they said no...I hate it when old historic items get lost. The best way to keep them from getting lost is to give the slides to a Scout History Website such as mine or another with the clear understanding that he or she will convert them to jpg files and make them available to everyone. That way future local people including Troop Historians (boys who change jobs every six months) can find them via Google and quickly download them in a usable format. Far more important than one Troop Historian is everyone else in the world (including real historians) who Google with an interest not in the Troop number, but the universal historical subject matter of the photographs themselves. Any Scouting historian will tell you that most of the millions and millions of Scouting photographs taken over the last century have ended up in landfills after spending a few decades in the drawers of well-meaning people. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu Scout History http://kudu.net

The best possible example of EDGE in action is the Patrol Method presentation of Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmaster Specific Training. What a perfect way to introduce a scholarly article on EDGE. Indeed, our nation's topmost experts on EDGE theory never EXPLAIN what the Patrol Method is, in fact they never mention a Patrol Leader once. These EDGE experts never DEMONSTRATE a working Patrol. So if the Patrol Method does not include Patrol Leaders and working Patrols, on what do these EDGE experts spend the entire 20 minute presentation EPLAINING and DEMONSTRATING? Adult Association and the EDGE Method! How utterly destructive. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://inquiry.net/leadership/index.htm

Traditional neckerchiefs: http://inquiry.net/uniforms/neckerchief/index.htm

I use my sleeve pocket for band-aids and bandages. Bloody legs are always in style. We plan to use the pockets for their intended purpose, to carry our MP3 players on our April backpacking trip in the Green Swamp. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://www.inquiry.net/scuba_diving_merit_badge/index.htm

Beavah writes: Yah, BrentAllen, that's a lot of stuff about one or two more methods that yeh seem to have interest in...But there's not a thing there about Aims, eh? In a "radical" Outdoor Method Troop like Brent's, the Aims take care of themselves. That is how Scouting is supposed to work. Beavah writes: We all have to be careful not to confuse Methods for Aims, eh? Character's an inward thing, as are fitness and citizenship. Scouting is no longer popular because we now presume to measure that which can not be measured (the Scouts' "inward things"), and we dumb down to the Den Leader level that which we SHOULD measure (Physical Distance -- The "Game" of Scouting is based on Physical Distance). If a Scoutmaster makes a radical Outdoor Patrol Method his ONLY aim, the "Three Aims" will follow: BrentAllen might disagree with the following because he probably believes that the "Eight Methods" all have equal value, but I believe there is a practical reason why he seems to concentrate on the Outdoor Method: Character: When a Patrol or Troop ventures away from the comforts of Webelos Den Leader camping and into the wilderness, it is the raw forces of nature which mold character. A small comment from an adult or older Scout goes a long way. Fitness: Well, duh. Scouting was designed around challenging Journeys and Expeditions, not indoor chin-ups. Citizenship: Baden-Powell's "Citizenship" is about the sweaty, small-team cooperation that a "radical" outdoor program demands. Green Bar Bill referred to this backwoods-cooperation as "A Real Patrol." Just like the "Three Aims," the Six Fake Methods of Scouting are all really just the natural outcomes of a radical Outdoor Patrol Method: Uniform: It is usually the indoor boys who object to the Uniform. In a High Adventure Troop the Uniform is simply an expectation. It is a non-issue in the same way that the uniform is a non-issue in Little League teams that concentrate on the basics. Adult Association: An adult's advice carries a whole lot more weight at the end of an exhausting day of backpacking or paddling because he walks the walk. Adult Association is a natural product of a "radical" outdoor program. Ideals: The Ideals are designed to be practiced in the backwoods where they are practical, not "idealistic." Advancement: In Baden-Powell's program, the last requirement of every rank is a significant backwoods "Journey" or "Expedition" of increasing difficulty. Each and every requirement for each and every badge is either an outdoor skill or a public service skill. The BSA's schoolwork badges, justified by focusing on the so-called "Three Aims" of Scouting (being judged by other boys' parents, chin ups, and the three branches of government), are what B-P defined as the very opposite of Scouting's method. Perhaps Green Bar Bill's big discovery was that if you offer a "radical" Outdoor Patrol Method, some Scouts will do schoolwork. Personal Growth: Well-meaning progressive crap from the 1970s. Personal Growth is a natural outcome of a good program. There is NO specific "Personal Growth" technique that can not be classified under one of the other "Methods." Leadership Development: In a "radical" Outdoor Patrol Method Troop, Scouts take elections more seriously. They vote for their real outdoor leaders. Beavah writes: stuff like independent patrol outings? I am curious about that as well. Independent Patrol Outings are central to the Patrol Method as defined in Hillcourt's 3rd edition of the Handbook for Scoutmasters. If not Independent Patrol Outings, why not at least Baden-Powell's 300 feet between Patrols (if only as an experiment)? Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://inquiry.net/outdoor/games/index.htm (This message has been edited by Kudu)

My initial thought is that if these scouts like BP, they may not attend other campouts, so if we do this every 3-4 months, it would require that they attend 50% of the preceeding 4 months of troop outings in order to participate, and have SPL or SM approval. You are over-thinking this

Troll.