John-in-KC

Brotherhood: I do think we should challenge assertions. One of my challenges is the parental permission of ACP&P. I've seen it abused. I've seen gift MBs from Mommy and Daddy. I think we dilute the Adult Association Method when we routinely let Mommy and Daddy be the MBC.

It became "In, With, and Under." It's a Lutheran thing

You just have to love bloody fools who believe in training to time, not to standard! eghiglie, I'm afraid my responses to your training director would have been not friendly, not courteous, and not kind. Scathingly sarcastic, telling him where he blow the smoke would have been more like it. That man is an epic example of why too much training in BSA is garbage. OH!!! Thank you as well for doing the training, although there be but 3 there.

But there is nothing to vote upon. Maybe the Committee Chairman would like a pack Committee Member to find and plan a large overnight experience- i.e. spening the night in a museum or naval ship museum. The Committee Member should do it. Period. No vote. Actually, NO. The CUBMASTER, as the Program person, identifies to the Pack Committee the need to do a Pack Family Overnight. The Committee, in plenary session, should determine a weekend that fits the Pack calendar. Then, the Chair asks his Activity coordinator (a MC) to find a volunteers to arrange/coordinate this event. THEN, the chair follows up, with encouragement and smiles and fresh hot coffee or cocoa. There's a lot of ASKING in Scouting, followed by a lot of ENCOURAGING. Committees need to be collegial and run on consensus.

Welcome to the campfire. Contact your friendly District Executive. He's the one who can help you with this.

Agree with Stosh and GKlose on this one. EagleSon's project required NO money, just time, and he was able to get parking passes for the folks who donated labor on work days.

Lisa, First, where in the Sam Hill is your District Advancement Chairperson?? Recruiting Counselors, ensuring they are trained, and working a Counselor list are his jobs by ACP&P! Sigh. I find it a little hard that there is ONE Railroading counselor in all of Michigan. It seems to me that one good alternative here is to sign up the staff and docents of such places as the Steam Railroad Institute in Owosso. As far as programs go, railroading thankfully has lots of DO requirements away from the counselor. There are some things which should be done with a Counselors help, but can be done with a little initiative by the boy. The key issues is there is stuff for individual examination in the badge. One Counselor cannot do it by himself. I'm not working our MB Day this year (work requirements trump Scouting time), but when I did, I leveraged my parents to review with kids the work they brought in from the house. I FOUND A WAY to make the personal examination happen. Yes, Railroading is one I counsel btw

couldn't agree with you more, and, as an advancement coordinator, I WISH I knew more about the counselors outside my son's troop ... but for the most part I don't. Attend Roundtable. Get to know the other Scouters in your District!!! That's how you get to know the other MB Counselors. How many of us are MBCs as one of our Scouting hats? If we had gone the standard route, SM would have issued five separate blue cards with the name of a MBC and taken a week to get each one to my son. No he wouldn't. And if he did, so what? I'm agreeing with Ed here... No, if a boy has a MBC drop out of the system on him, a quick call to the SM, at his home, should do it. Heck, how many times did I sleep over with a friend in my Troop, whose Dad was SM? We don't have to make this too hard. Once Mr SM knows Billy's working a MB, the change should be a matter of a phone call or even a text. (This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Hi, E and thanks!!! Yep, I speak Californian in Missouri, dude... IF everything worked consistently right, it wouldn't matter that Mom or Dad was MBC for 1 or two badges. Scoutmasters would have depth charts of qualfied people in their units. T'ain't NEVER happened that way, folks I can remember as a youth wanting to earn Railroading MB so bad I could taste it, and there was never a Counselor for it in the San Fernando Valley Council. One time I was so excited to see a name... I called him that afternoon, to see if he was around: "Sorry, son, Council goofed. I've never done Railroading." So... I never earned railroading If there is one thing these boards in particular have taught me, it's that the adult side of Scouting clicks when we all work together. Unlike he who is of a WB PAtrol whose name tastes like Chicken , I do think we should challenge assertions. Scroll through the tales here of Billy coming to Mr SMith and saying "Here's my blue card, I earned ZZZ MB." Scoutmasters, as the program guys for their units, accept a tremendous burden in love... to help raise our young charges. How can the SM do what he needs to do if he doesn't know Billy is out earning a MB? How can he steer Billy away from Mr Jackguy, who gives the MB away? How can he steer Billy away from Mr Blacksmith, who has his own requirements for Metalworking MB? So, yes, I say the Scoutmaster is the gatekeeper... the standards he sets in program help quality happen.

CRW, Thanks for the update. This is where a good Advancement Coordinator helps. by having a good idea of what the Scout is doing, and keeping it in one of the established databases (such as Troopmaster), a Scout sho is thinking he is ready to advance may just be... wait for it... THINKING HE is ready to advance. The SM, among others, know otherwise.

lneubs51, I have received and responded to your PMs. You need to bring your SM and COR into the same room at the same time for a friendly talk. If you three are on the same page, all should come out well. If you are not, then your unit has bigger problems than one ASM.

No, not tyrant! Collegial. Consensus. Cubmaster and Den Leaders are responsible for the PROGRAM. They use the tools provided by National (Committee/chartered partner guidance, Boys Life, program helps, Scouter, annual set of themes, Pow-Wow help books, ad infinitum) to provide activities for the boys throughout the program year. Cubmaster helps the DLs and runs the 3 ring circus called the Pack Meeting. Cubmaster is ex officio on the Committee. He reports on what's happening, furnishes support needs, and solicits calendar/program inputs. Committee supports the Cubmaster: Finances, Advancement, Activities Support, calendar coordination. In particular, the Chair coordinates with the Cubmaster and the COR, to make sure all have similar vision and goals. In a well-trained Pack, there should be very little voting and much more consensus on the needed decisions. At least that's how I read the Cub Scout Leader's Guide and the Troop Commitee Handbooks...

You're the Scoutmaster. You're the guy who assigns Scouts to Merit Badge Counselors. Your signature, on the "Application for Merit Badge" portion, signifies you have agreed with Billy that taking SCUBA is appropriate for him. It also means you've assigned him a Counselor and written in the contact data on the back side. Now, when the badge comes back, there are two places for adult info: - On the application part, there are initials for your Advancement Person. When I was a unit advancement coordinator, that was for when I put the badge into Troopmaster and printed off an advancement report. - On the middle part, there's a signature of counselor and signature of unit leader. The Counselor's signature signs off on completion. The Unit Leader's signature is a promise to the Scout that the badge will be processed forthwith. When we follow the system, when Scoutmasters do their part by knowing the folks in the District and properly assigning Counselors, the signatures are visible symbols of our participation in the process. Sorry for the long-winded answer... yes, you are not only Dad, you are his Scoutmaster. You may sign. If he needs some space from you, then you may choose to ask an ASM to do those things for you for him.

Which goes back to one of my points: The Armed Forces want a spirit of obedience in their socialization: When it comes time to take that hill, a commander wants his soldiers to obey orders. When it comes time for Fleet aciton, a Captain wants his sailors to do what they are supposed to to fight the ship. In the military, suppressing the human reaction to flee danger is part of the essential training. The whole military judicial system is built on conformance: The basis of criminal law in the military is "Conduct to the prejuidice of good military order and discipline." That's why the military can and does use coercive measures as part of its leadership dynamic. Scouting is not the military. In terms of program materials and people, Scouting invests relatively little into uniforms after they're sold. There are certainly fewer resources for uniforming than there are for Advancement, Leadership, or the Outdoors. Yes, uniforming is A Method... one of eight. Now, returning to the Flag patch: General Pete Schoomaker, God love him, was the Chief of Staff who brought that innovation to the Army. He was trying to create a symbol for the Army being an expeditionary force. That's why he spent lots of budget dollars to replace all the flag patches Chief Canton to its own right with flag patches Chief Canton marching forward. Originally he insisted we'd go into harm's way with the red white and blue patch. IIRC it took some medical wound data showing the patch was a target for him to fall off colors and go subdued.

DING DONG THE BELT LOOPS ARE DEAD...THE BELT LOOPS ARE DEAD...THE BELT LOOPS ARE DEAD!!!!! By 1972, I had graduated to Explorer Post 7, Reseda, CA, and had no more of such stupid bling. National took a perfectly fine Boy Scout handbook (it had worked for over a decade) and had this Good Idea ... NOT. This is one of those times where Rick (Kudu) is right ... National really screwed up the program in the 70s.

Again, what Frank said: We are the school districts. WE elect the Boards, the Boards give guidance to the professional staff (and receive recommendations from them). Boards of Education are not Scouting, where the professionals have more power than the volunteers. It's the other way around. Volunteers, sitting Boards of Education, can hire and fire. If you don't like what's going on, run for your School Board and be part of the solution.

IIRC there is a paragraph in the Insignia guide that proscribes articles meant solely for youth members of the program: Merit Badges and sashes, patrol patches, youth POR, and rank ... from being worn by adults. That paragraph quickly takes the OP's, mine, and EagleSon's MB sashes all out of play as uniform items. While at 20, EagleSon is still a youth Venturer, it'd look rather wierd at this point wearing a MB sash.

At the same time, Stosh, you need to be prepared for the moment where you're going to have to raise the BALONEY flag on the District?/Council? Advancement Chair on this. Even if the kid figures it out, some adults are not willing to say they were wrong in dealing with a youth member. (This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Yep, fact. Back in 1970!!! These days, the Scouts' interest and maturity should drive the MB process. Now, there are some Merit Badges (the forthcoming SCUBA may be one of them) where there's a floor age. Where I got my dive certificate, you had to be 15, or the licensing agency wouldn't grant. Period. I agree with Lisa, shortridge, and kbandit. Let's let the young man explore.

I am "old skool." I turned 11 in October 1967. Just before my birthday I received my Arrow of Light. For several reasons, I was not in a Troop until January 1968. From my perspective, there is nothing wrong with a youth moving from Cubs to Boys on the schedule his parents want, so long as he meets membership guidelines. If the Arrow of Light does not pass the "so-what" test, it might be the parents have decided the program isn't meeting the need. We've made a lot of hoopla in recent years about the move from Cub to Boy. Want to know something? My PL, at my first COH (about a month after joining, led me in front of youth and family in the Oath and Law. Then,Mr Weiss (my SM) welcomed me, Mom, and Dad to the Troop. Concentrate on the needs of the youth, not an artificial timeline. That may mean they don't join in one batch. Scoutmasters and WDLs alike need to remember it's about the youths' growth and development, not our convenience.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Interesting comment on the pressures of modern American society: "In an achievement-oriented society, more and more boys are joining scouting and a greater number are sticking with the program long enough to earn the Eagle Scout rank, organization leaders say." Check. They're wearing blue jeans. At least they're uniformly wearing blue jeans. The comment above to me is far more important, as it focuses on why many youth serving activities are seeing pressures on kids to do things.

OK, B, you jumped in, Sir, WHAT ABOUT TORT REFORM FOR MALPRACTICE??? 1- Loser pays ... attorneys fees, court costs, witness fees, the whole shooting match. 2- Plaintiff must try, cannot settle. 3- Obvious malpractices (wrong leg operated on, sponge left in, &c) move to the front of the line for trial. 4- Automatic administrative penalty on malpractices of error: Doc/hospital pay the "make whole" surgery and recovery... How will your peers of the ambulance chasing (heck, these days, coffee spilling) variety deal with these kinds of proposed changes???

shortridge, I'll get you the resource numbers tonight. One is a restricted use bin item (ever hear of that) printed for use by folks on the trail at PSR or at PTC. The other is the same thing, less the Philmont specific stuff, but a SALE item by Supply Corporation.

Agreed, congratulations to your son!!!

Harsh? Nahhhhhhhhhhhhh. Educational.