John-in-KC

He is the program guy. The buck stops with the Scoutmaster on all program issues. He keeps the flame on the Aims and Methods of Scouting for the Troop. He's a supervisor. The ASM's work for him. He's the mentor, adviser, and trainer of the PLC. He cannot delegate this. He knows every single youth member. He's the one who has the joy of talking to them about the Oath and the Law. He's the one who assigns them Merit Badge Counselors. He's the one whose quiet word of encouragement will send a young man soaring ... and whose quiet word of discipline should bring a young man back to hard reality. None of this last is delegatable. At least, that's what Mr Weiss, Mr Wright, and Mr Warden were to me... ... 40-odd years ago.

Susan, I hope someone has backbriefed your COR and obtained approval for youth members to be buying personal equipment from their portion of the Troop account. The Chartered Partner is the licensee of record from your Council for your unit. Your operating practices reflect on them.

He didn't make any effort to recruit, talk, interact, call, any of the Webelos boys eligible to cross-over. Who trained him to recruit? Recruiting has skillsets in public speaking and in sales. Part of mentorship is to ensure the youth receives that training. I'm with eisely that evaluation of POR is a Scoutmaster in Nature obligation. It's part of the same mentorship that has the SM doing conferences, assigning youth merit badge counselors... The SM is mentor to all in a broad way, and mentor to youth leadership in a very specific way. It's his joy to interact with the youth. Anything that detracts from that statement should be avoided.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Two comments: I've seen Packs really do great recruiting on "Welcome Back Night." In my neck of the woods, that's the night before school when the families come in, kids find their rooms and meet their teachers. Having Pack leadership manning a table, having Pack Cubs come to that night in uniform and then having Cub Scouting FUN, is an invaluable recruiting tool. Even better, bring the pinewood track; aslo even better, if the principal will let you run a few Dutchs out back, make cobbler. The BSA national websire for Cub Scouting is actually pretty strong. There are program helps, all manner of info ... and that's not counting training at MyScouting. Finally, there is help. New Den Leaders who cannot get to training might ask, through the Cubmaster, for their Unit Commissioner to pay them a visit. A good UC (I know...) can provide another wealth of information and a store of insights.

Welcome, Jon M. No, it's not supposed to be like this. I can't tell you how or why it got there, but it sounds like this Den and this Pack aren't really on the rails. Lisa asks a bunch of good rhetorical questions to you. I think you should ponder your answers. They'll help you make a decision that's best for your family. To me, that's why the exploration phase ... seeking out the Pack ... is so important. You're trusting that the other parents ... your fellow volunteers ... will be helping make a better life for your young son. If you see things that don't look and feel right, they probably aren't. Go to Scouting.org. Take Fast Start for Cub Scouting (it's in My Scouting, under training). Take some time and look at these web pages. They don't substitute for position specific training, but they'll give you an idea of what the model is... http://www.scouting.org/sitecore/content/Home/CubScouts.aspx http://www.scouting.org/sitecore/content/Home/CubScouts/Parents/FamilyProgram.aspx http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/CubScouts/AboutCubScouts/ThePack.aspx (each piece of the chart drills you down for "who does what for whom") http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/CubScouts/Leaders/NewLeaderResource.aspx Then, you'll be able to decide if what your Pack is doing looks anywhere near right. Assuming you decide this Pack is not for you... 1) Before you transfer your son, look at the new Pack as well. Make sure it appears to be doing things right... including family involvement. 2) Take the time to tell the Pack Committee Chair and the Chartered Organization Representative why you're leaving. Feedback is a gift, and a Pack cannot improve if they think all is well, and you're just disaffected. Let us know how you decide on this.

Stosh, looking at your last, I think it's time to have that friendly cup of coffee with your District Advancement Chair or Council Advancement Chair. We can advise, but only from afar. You're at the point where talking with your locals and asking why is this so? questions is the right thing to do. The Eagle app has been republished about once a year for the past several years. At one point, the Scoutmaster was an automatic reference. It's not on the current printing. I know that in my Council, the EBOR will either get hardcopy from the Scoutmaster, or he will be called into the room. Is it right? Dunno. 98% of all youth who go to Eagle are no-brainers. The other 2%, for whatever the reason, are not. One thing which you can do: You can notify parties concerned that you no can no longer in good faith endorse his application for Eagle. If you do that, you have created an appealable event for him. The responsibility is lifted from your shoulders. My personal thought is have that cup of coffee with the advancement folks and discuss the matter of the Scoutmaster reference with them. They're on your local ground; we are not. Good luck.

Long, long ago, my troop would go to Camp Whitsett each fall (hey Trev, ya listenin'?) for a service project weekend. Camp was already COLD (as in into the teens) when we'd go up, even though other parts of Southern California were still quite nice. Since we did live in Southern California, warmer clime gear was good enough. The Troop was assigned quarters in the camp commissary building. Even boy scouts sometimes can sleep in a warehouse.

Communicate, communicate, communicate, Stosh... All it takes is your COR or one of the Advancement volunteers having a bad day, and no matter how honorable your reasons are, their value will be -nil- . Having these folks as allies will forestall a challenge.

Hold it, Lisa... When did mind-reading go on the curriculum of Scoutmaster Fundamentals or Wood Badge???

Stosh, I would suggest a friendly cup of coffee with you, the DAC, and the Council Advancement Chair. Bring them into the loop. It might even be worth it to have one with the Professional in charge of advancement. If they perceive you playing a headgame, rather than legitimately trying to work growth and development, a unfilled levy on you for your recommendation ... well, it can be taken as "he has an animus against the boy; let's contact the Chartered Partner and deal with this." I know that if my DAC pereives someone is urinating and defecating on a youth member, he won't wait a minute to contact the Chartered Partner, and the Key 3, and withdraw the boys' advancement from the unit. Trust me, I've seen him do it. You don't need that headache.

Just got this on my District list serv, passed along for all others... The Registration Packet referred to below? http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/philmont/2011PhilmontRegistrationPkt.pdf ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Registration requests for 2011 Expeditions for Philmont Scout Ranch will be made on the internet beginning November 1 thru December 5, 2009. Please see the 2011 Philmont Registration Packet(pdf) for additional information. Unit representatives will log into a special website during the week that corresponds to their BSA region, or during the open week. Week One: Northeast Region Nov 1 -7 Week Two: Western Region Nov 8 14 Week Three: Southern Region Nov 15 21 Week Four: Central Region Nov 22 28 Week Five: Open Week Nov 29 Dec 5 Once the registration request process is completed, the computer will randomly select units to receive reservations. When 2011 reaches capacity, groups will be placed on a waiting list for 2011 in the event of cancellations. Please see the 2011 Philmont Registration Packet (pdf) for additional information. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Good luck and good hunting to Troops and Venturing Crews seeking slots.

Actually, that idea of tents inside a warehouse-like facility isn't half bad...

Yeah, BadenP, Like shortridge, I want to hear this, especially since my youth member MB sash includes what was then Atomic Energy MB...

As I've said before, I have a real problem with quite a few young adults ... they've not had their "oh, ####" moment in life yet (young police/fire and military being obvious exceptions). Sharing the "oh, ####" effect is an empowerment ... you can put up with whatever MickeyMouse anyone else throws your way, and that includes the artificially enduced time pressure in WB. People who've had the oh #### moment tend to get through or even bypass storming in group dynamics.

Note that the purpose is "To explore how sub-groups in a larger team can balance their desire to win more as a sub-group with their desire to win as a team". This, to me, is the point that is too often lost or not clear in the de-brief. There is a significant breakdown between other groups and Scouting right here. In Scouting, we're trying to emphasize the bonds of the Patrol. We create a miniature representative democracy, and empower the PL to represent the other 7 at PLC meetings. There, the PL is looking somewhat out for the interests of the Troop, but must balance the Troop decision with what is good for his Patrol. Only the SPL and ASPLs among elected leaders of the Troop are looking out for the troop as a whole. That's where dilemma games like this break down for Scouting. The best of the order is not necessarily what the good of the subunit needs. Frankly, a lot of the time a "satisficing" position is as good as it gets (that's a win some lose some/win some lose some result set). The game supports neither the structure nor the dynamic of a healthy, functioning Troop.

No clue, but if they're near ready, get them there and move them out downrange. It's hard to change something that's already in play, and even if that happens, there's a lesson for the boys to learn from dealing with change.

Part of the lesson of the game was to try to get across that each 'patrol' (could be any subgroup in any organization) is just part of a larger organization. When the different groups within a larger org are competing with one another (or in-fighting) the WHOLE org loses. Which is the root problem of the game. The game comes at the end of 2 days of pushing the major importance of the sub-unit (in this case, Patrol) on the learners. Then, on a dime, without preparation, and under some degree of tiredness, the focus of the learners is changed without warning. Heck, right before WAUC is Scouting Jeopardy, which IS an inter-patrol competition. I've done an awful lot of leadership psych and team-building in the past 30 years. Multi-echelon training and team-building is one of the harder skillsets for a trainer to master. It involves being able to take the whole apart and look at the contribution of each element to the whole. It also involves making sure each element knows how the others contribute to its own success. That's what I see missing from WAUC: No one has the rose to make sure each element knows how the others contribute to its own success, and this "game" is a bloody failure of an attempt. That we hear anecdotes of failure is enough for me to say... discard this piece of excrement from the curriculum!

I'm a volunteer. We have a few professionals here (SecretDE is active, Eagle92 and BadenP are former members), but most of us are volunteers. We do the things we do as part of that 168- another hour a week for Scouting. We love the program, we do what we can. If you don't like what is happening in your District Roundtable, volunteer for staff. You'll work with other great volunteers. You'll have your heart handed to you now and again (it's really frustrating to prepare for class and have no one show). Sometimes you'll get that "thank you" that makes all the difference in the world. You can help make change happen, or you can gripe. Your choice. I cose helping make change happen. I changed positions on staff at the first of the year, and I'm having a blast now. YIS.

I tend to agree with Beavah, but I'd recommend having a brief sit-down with your son and then sending him forth to ask questions of those who he asked for references. The object lesson you're trying to teach is perservearance...

We've been here before, and I asked for the collective wisdom at the time. If I never said thank you then, I certainly do now. BTW, the young man aged out. http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=159897

I think the best way out is find a different set of cabins...

Since you don't mention they are Webelos... Remember these bold-faced keypoints from G2SS: Overnight camping by Tiger, Wolf, and Bear Cub Scout dens as dens is not approved and certificates of liability insurance will not be provided by the Boy Scouts of America. Tiger Cubs may participate in boy-parent excursions, day camps, pack overnighters, or council-organized family camping. Pack Overnighters These are pack-organized overnight events involving more than one family from a single pack, focused on age-appropriate Cub Scout activities and conducted at council-approved locations (councils use Pack Overnighter Site Approval Form, No. 13-508). If nonmembers (siblings) participate, the event must be structured accordingly to accommodate them. BSA health and safety and youth protection guidelines apply. In most cases, each youth member will be under the supervision of a parent or guardian. In all cases, each youth participant is responsible to a specific adult. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ It needs to be a Pack event. It needs to be family based. If family based, the family must have the privacy of their facility.

MKE: You missed the key sentence... This means that Venturing youth who are Crew members and not registered adult leaders may now attend WB. That means there are YP issues involving youth members of the Boy Scouts of America. The last time I checked, a Venturer under 21 is a youth program member. In fact, Venturing YP protection training discusses some of the issues, including coed housing, in detail.

As I recall, the game is presented later in the evening on Day 2. Folks are tired, and the added value of the game, as we've seen anecdotally, can go South really fast. It's an easy game to lose control of... as we've heard in other threads, to the point of having participants consider leaving the course ... is this game really worth the learning value?

SR540Beaver, Thank you. Now we have a baseline documentation point for our musings and ramblngs on training. I'll take a little time to let this sink in before thoughts.