John-in-KC

Guy, What you describe is inter-denominational. Interfaith is when you try to blend Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, ad infinitum...

Oak Tree, I can live with a discussion around the campfire. Just end it with nothing more than asking folks to quietly pray in their own tradition.

Why aren't Troops meeting over the summer? That's my bigger question. Summer was when SMs had undivided attention from the kids who were in town. Summertime is Scout Camp, hiking, bicycling, and canoeing time. What's the advantage to shutting down? I would hope that if any Troop does shut down, that if they suspend POR clocks, they talk about it very clearly with youth and parents. To me, this is an incredibly bad idea... to shut a Troop down for the summer. If EagleSon were still a youth member, and I found out his troop was locking up, I'd be looking for a new Troop for him.

We're human, and BSA is not a machine stamping out standard replacement parts. Each unit is a franchise. Each franchise, within the limits of standard, has some latitude in how things get done. Frankly, I'd look at the Patrol Method, the Outdoors Method, the Adult Association Method, and the Ideals method. If those are square, advancement is probably in order. If you hear folks describing the troop using B-P's classic "It's a game with a purpose", you're probably ok. If you see MBs being taught at Troop meetings, if you see the Troop going to outings which have MBs tied off to them regularly, if you discover the Troop is doing more than one "merit badge day" a year... advancement probably has some challenges. My thoughts.

Wens, I hope the boy will buy in. Always have a Plan B. What's your Plan B if he does not buy in? I'd recommend that conversation be between SM, CC and UC. BTW, who is talking to his parents to get them on your side of this?

For now, I simply ask your prayers for the families of the fallen. Who, how, and why will have to wait for the dust to settle a bit. Fog of war surrounds these first reports.

That's part of it. The other part is I shall not prosletise or evagelize in the Scouting context. That's a two-way street. If I refrain from proclaiming my God in environments where I do not know the full nature of the audience, for Scouting's sake ... please reciprocate the kindness: Refrain from proclaiming your God to me. What has happened in too many of these service is folks who do not understand Scripture go far and wide to make it acceptable to everyone. It's not, it cannot be. I'll gladly sit across the campfire, you with a Quran, me with a Bible, and we can talk Islam and Christianity. I'll gladly sit across that same campfire, you with Torah, me with a Bible, and we can talk about Law and Gospel. I will even go with Scouts to synagogue, as I do annually in helping them earn their religious emblem, that they might see how another faith community worships. Please just don't Mixmaster it.

Make it not be worship. Period. Share tenets of our faith. Share "scripture show and tell" -- this passage is important to me and why... Share what's our worship day back in the city... Say "You may now pray in your own fashion." The instant you say "let us pray", I will get up and walk away. ChaiAdventure, I think, got it in the other thread. His faith does not declare Jesus as Messiah. For me to say "let us worship the Christ" in a Scouting context is for me to directly, overtly insult his faith. Equally, should he say "Torah is what matters", he's doen the same to me. Any interfaith service has the potential to do that. In my denomination, after the 9/11 Yankee Stadium interfaith worship, there were folks who wanted to tar and feather a certain Pastor and District President for having participated. In the Scouting context, at the unit level, our job is to support families of youth members in this. At the District and Council levels, there are common things faithful men and women can do in the Scouting context to serve our churches and synagogues--that we better support Scouting.

oldsm, Yes, the OT, the Law, has prophecy and foreshadowing to NT. That's a pretty advanced topic in apologetics for an 11 year old. He needs to be hearing basics "I Am the Way, the truth, and the life...", clearly and simply. So, I ask again: How does this service serve, rather than confuse, the Christian Boy Scout?

Reading through this again, one thought keeps coming to mind... Who was watching this kid, week in, week out ... and not having a quiet word with him about his POR? Ed's right... A SM can call a SM conference anytime for any reason. The Committee, equally, can convene a BOR anytime to look into a youths' growth and development. Right about now, I'm thinking the best thing for this Troop is to invite its UC and the District Advancement Chair in for a couple of all-adult training evenings, to talk about leadership and advancement. They'll have a lot better feel for the ground than we do here...

Greaves, You served everyone but the Christian in that. Your list mentions nothing to the New Testament. How did this service serve the Christian?

Other tough questions, and the SPL probably should not be a part of these... Who has responsibility to provide training in the POR (what do I do, how do I do it)? Who has responsibility for 1st line supervision of the POR as it's done? Does the supervisor have responsibility to show/approve critical events where the POR is done (OATR has chapter meetings and Lodge/chapter events, and needs to report back to PLC as one example)? Who is the first adult keeping an distant yet attentive eye on the POR holder and his 1st line supervision? If the position requires external support (transportation to a district meeting, such as OA chapter), who provides the logistics? If Mom or Dad, which unit serving Scouter backs up the boy and explains that transportation is required for him to fulfill the POR? If the answers to questions like these are complete, then there seem to be clear expectations, and why was the Scout signed off? OTOH, if the answers are incomplete or incoherent, then the leadership supervision of youth officers lacks a brick or two, and training of adults is in order. If a troop sets the standard that "wearing the patch is POR completion", then that's what they'll get. If the Troop sets a higher bar, it'll be achieved. The principal program officer is the guy who sets the tone for the bar to be higher.... your ball, Mr SM.

At our major Council Camp (H Roe Bartle), we have: - Christian Protestant for each 500 man camp (3 of them) - Catholic for the Reservation - Episcopal/Anglican for the Reservation - Community of Christ for the Reservation. Jewish Troops provide their own coverage (but coordinate when more than 1 troop is in camp in a session). Jewish Troops IIRC do concede the Saturday Sabbath issue. I don't know if any of the area Islamic Centers charter a Troop at all. Does that help?

When I was a CC, SM brought SPL to report PLC's decisions. We did it for same reason boomer does. SM had things he needed to report on independently as well, that were not youth member in nature. Nike described many of those.

What a can of worms. First, why are not the CC and the SM sharing a common vision for the Troop? They need to have each others back. They need to cross-communicate, regularly ... and often away from the youth members. If a Scout requests a BOR over the lack of recommendation of the SM, four people need to know about it, in advance: - The youth himself. - The CC. - The youths' parents - The Committee Advancement guy. This is where Stosh's policy of delegating POR signoffs comes home to roost. I'm glad this is not Stosh's troop. If you read various statements online, if a Scout is doing a poor job of executing his POR, one of the sad duties of the SM is to remove him before the clock tolls completion. If the Scout is allowed to complete his POR, if there isn't an audit trail about training and performance, the Troop will lose. Is there an audit trail? Was he removed for poor performance during his tenure? Who signed off on the POR service as acceptable? If it was anyone other than the SM, why? Not passing an Advancement Board of Review is denial of advancement, according to ACP&P #33088. The Committee is obligated to do several things: - They have to be able to share exactly why they are denying advancement. - They have to share with him an improvement plan. He has to accept it. - If he does not accept their improvement plan, they have to tell him about how he or his parents can challenge advancement with the District. Most District Advancement Chairs I know are going to be really upset about dealing with an appeal below Eagle. Your Chartered Partner is going to get more "franchisor help from above" than you can deal with. I know at least one DE who will tell the IH/COR that he expects them to assert their ownership of the unit; he expects that the unit serving Scouters will smile as correct methods are rammed up where the sun does not shine. Reading what we have here, to me, it sounds like the BOR needs to talk not about this boy with Mr SM, but needs to have a business discussion about leadership training and supervision during a boys' tenure. Now, if the boy has the correct training (unit JLT, council NYLT, a previous track record of success), then that's a different story, and upon the boy. That this Scout will not advance today should be a surprise to no one in the unit. If it was a surprise, there are deep, systemic challenges between the committee and the program, and between the Scouters and the Scouts. ETA: Shortridge, I agree with you that the SPL/ASPL should have been talking about quality of POR service with Mr SM all the way through, but at the end of the day, as Barry says "The Scoutmaster keeps the flame." He should be the one who signs off on the POR as acceptable.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

SR540Beaver, Not true in the particular case of my school district. Uniform fee is dry clean it twice during the season. Instrument rental fee is $50 a year.

I need to edit my own statement: I just ask they don't ask to to explicitly worship their God in a Scouting context, as I do not get to ask them to worship my God in a Scouting context. Should read... I just ask they don't ask me to explicitly worship their God in a Scouting context, as I do not get to ask them to worship my God in a Scouting context. We're all allowed to worship our God. That's part of the DRP and the Charter Agreement. We're not allowed to evangelize/prosletyze, and we do not have to follow other peoples worship methods, especially outside our major faith community. Within Christendom, this can extend to the Roman Catholic who is obligated to attend Mass faithfully.

boomer, You are certainly right. There are districts across the nation that are simply eliminating athletics and the lively arts from the curriculum, period. They cost money. I'm lucky that my state and school district have not done that. IIRC there's a district in California that schwacked the entire athletic PE program and is selling off what gear it can.

"My loose thought so far is that it doesn't do enough to relieve American businesses and manufacturing of the health care costs that are crippling our industry in da worldwide competitive marketplace. Wish da Republicans would get on about that rather than bein' the "party of No." All the "gotta keep employer coverage" folks are forgettin' about that aspect. Yeh don't get to keep your employer coverage when your employer goes under or cuts it, eh? And losin' more American businesses and jobs hurts us in da long run quite probably hurts us more than a public option for health care." Actually, Beavah, my Congresscritter is the vice Chair and ranking minority member of the House Small Business Committee. He reports he has a working relationship and friendship with his Chairwoman. They've taken proposed legislation on the small business issues ... stuff they both agreed on ... to the House leadership. They've been told to pound sand. 218+51+1. The Democrats have way more than that, and they're not stopping this Juggernaut for any conservative ideas, good, bad or indifferent.

Trev, I follow what Pastor Gordon Gross, Philmont Chaplain, taught me seven years ago: If it's interfaith, and it's a discussion sans worship, I attend. If it's interfaith worship, no. That said, I counsel God and Church for the God and Country (now PRAY) program. I take Scouts, every year, to the local conservative synagogue. I want them to see how other faith communities worship. I want them to experience what "outside of Christendom, outside of their comfort zone" feels like. I believe there is tremendous value in know how other peoples faiths work themselves out. We all have to live on this rock together. I just ask they don't ask to to explicitly worship their God in a Scouting context, as I do not get to ask them to worship my God in a Scouting context. Does that make sense?

At the practical level, Pack 57, it sounds to me like you need your DE and the Unit Commissioner to pay their annual support call on the Chartered Partner. I assume you are the CC, and you probably should be there too. Even if it means takig time from your day job, you should be there too! Otherwise, I support what Al and Sherminator said

I really, really like Barry's "The Scoutmaster is the Keeper of the Flame" comment. The Scoutmaster is the "older cousin" or the stepdad of every youth in the Troop. He has to be. He's their mentor, to use the overused buzzword. He's to know them, get in their heads, know what makes them tick, and be able to bring out the best for them. The Scoutmaster establishes his bar along the way, setting standards. Brent and I debated that in a uniform thread, but Brent's right: As Scoutmaster, he gets to create the positive culture around Scouting that is a Troop. When he does that well, the Troop, and its youth, can reach for the stars. The time to be inculcating standards in kids is not the Eagle SM conference. It's the hundreds of contact opportunities before, where carriage, deportment, a kind smile, and an observant eye combine to guide the kids subtly in the direction of good choices. Are youth going to make bad calls? Heck yes. EagleSon is 20 now; last night at 1AM we were working through a bad call he'd made. The idea is to turn the bad call into something that gives growth and can be laughed about a couple years from now. That takes discernment and wisdom. Just simply cutting the hair on the Sword of Damocles takes a snip of a scissors (or tongue). By far, drawing growth from an incident is far more difficult of the the two. The Scoutmaster keeps the flame. He, and he alone gets to make the first call on how high the bar is going to be.

Actually, it's easy. If the Scoutmaster has a good relationship with the Scout, then it's a calm, quiet, but tough love SM conference. It might even be a good idea if it's done away from the distractions of the regular meeting, but under the broad rules of no 1/1 contact. Now, if the Scoutmaster lacks that relationship, he can simply choose to deny a youth an Eagle Scoutmaster Conference, or decline to sign off on the conference or the app. He has the right to do those things. Even so, the Scoutmaster needs to understand he has created an appealable event under National advancement policy. At that point, the Scoutmaster has to accept he/the Troop may come out on the short end, and the Scout be awarded Eagle. The Scoutmaster has a bunch of competing interests to weigh, and the two that should drive him are: What's best for the Troop as a whole, what's best for this boy? I would think most Scoutmasters would be willing to visit with the CC, UC and COR when they have such a conundrum youth...

No, Sir, they are not. Excepting Battle Hymn, which is accetped in Christendom as a National hymn of invocation, they are secular. For the Christian to sing them in worship is anathema. If you want verses from Holy Scripture on what God proclaims in Word, they can be given I really, really like what Pastor Gordon Gross, one of the Philmont staff chaplains, taught me in 2003: As long as the community claims itself all to be Christian, have worship. If the community leaves the boundaries of one faith family, move to a lesson on the absolute morality on the Scout Law or Oath, and then offer folks private time to privately pray in their tradition. Ken, (Narraticong), you around to help on this? BTW, we've been here before on the matter of interfaith and Scout's Own. Fred Goodwin, again, thank you for the research you do for us as a collective. I don't have to agree, but nearly always not when you weigh in (as indeed with an awful lot of regulars here...) http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=193506&p=1(This message has been edited by John-in-Kc)(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Much as I love Peter, Paul, and Mary, and mourn Mary Travers passing, "If I Had a Hammer" is completely secular in nature. It does speak to temporal moral righteousness, but not to the Eternal. Glory Glory Hallelujah (Mine Eyes have seen the glory) does speak to this...