John-in-KC

Have you looked at Scouting.org searching on Varsity Scouting? (The V looks Brown to my puter screen) Have you looked at the Uniform Guide? We did a similar project (I wonder if all WB21C patrol projects are this by curriculum). We bypassed Varsity altogether, going for Cubs, Boys, Venturing, and Scouters. We rolled Varsity into Boys, since they operate under the same advancement plan and the same G2SS limits.

Thinking to adults wishing to be Scouters... Life is pretty complicated for a 8-18 year old. Do we really need to make it more so by having Ms Smith, who still has male biological parts? Or Mr Johnson, who still has C cup breasts? To me, prudence would say we ask these folk to wait until the conversion is complete. Does that make sense?

EagleinKY: In a perfect world, where all the documentation exists, what you described is what right should look like. How less a perfect world various situations will be requires a SM to use his judgment. ASM162''s follow-on indicates a near-perfect world. The boy in question will need 4 months in a POR to get it done. That also gives time for him to demonstrate good Scouting habits at Troop and great Scout Spirit away from the troop. Gunny''s comment, since I know he''s a new SM, goes to how he takes a boy from "here to there" when this situation will arise with him. Since Gunny and I have emailed offlist, I know he''s in the process of getting data management resources to help him mentor and manage the advancement method. The worst case is no book, no internal records, and just ScoutNet. SM has to make a call. Best case is book, internal records and ScoutNet confirmation: SM can determine pretty preceisely what a Scout needs for the next step.

Gunny, If you''re starting from a ScoutNet record, you as a SM and the young man are going to have to have a Scoutmaster Conference: With you mentoring, you can decide where he picks up from. If you have a Troopmaster (or other archived) record and he has his Boy Scout Handbook, you can bring the processes far closer. It may also be worth asking his peers about how he was "back then." Beyond here, I''d have a friendly talk at your next Roundtable with your District Advancement Chair and your UC and get their take on things. The DAC is the one responsible for implementing the BSA advancement program district-wide.

Hopefully your advancement coordinator has his record archived, so he can come back almost exactly where he lift off. If not, your DE can pull what you had reported complete on him, and he and the SM make a decision on how to go forward from there. The only limitation on Boy Scouting advancement system is that eligibility to advance ends on the 18th birthday. The exceptions are approved special needs and Eagle Candidates awaiting their Eagle Boards of Review.

If recharter time comes anytime soon, you will need a new CM. Internet recharter will not let you slot anyone as both CC and CM. If you are the CC, you have a default backup role of Cubmaster during any vacancy for any reason: http://www.scouting.org/cubscouts/about/thepack/pcomm.html Pack Committee Chair Qualifications: Is at least 21 years old, subscribes to the Declaration of Religious Principle, and agrees to abide by the Scout Oath or Promise and the Scout Law. Possesses the moral, educational, and emotional qualities that the Boy Scouts of America deems necessary to afford positive leadership to youth. Is appointed by the chartered organization and registered as an adult leader of the BSA. Is a person of good character, familiar with organization procedures, with a deep concern for the pack''s success. Preferably is a member of the chartered organization, respected in the community, who shows the willingness and ability to be the Cubmaster''s chief adviser. Responsibilities: The pack committee chair''s job is to (snip) If the Cubmaster is unable to serve, assume active direction of the pack until a successor is recruited and registered. (snip) TAG!! You''re it. May I suggest it''s in your best interests to go to your COR and start the recruitment, selection and training process for a new CM???(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Budget Planning!!! Current operations (current year) Capital replacement (year to year and longer term) I promise you, the day will come when that money will be sorely needed. DO seek guidance from your Chartered Partner about how to set aside funds for the future. Remember, they own the unit.

Not whine... crosstalk. You two need to understand each others visions and goals for the program and the support side. That way, you feed on each other, and set up the boys for long term program success. Knowing what your roads look like, the learning point failures of the youth in the program are just speed bumps that you''ve planned in It''s sometimes called looking out for each other''s backs...

1) Share with your Committee Chairman. A united front matters. 2) Share with your COR. A united front matters. 3) Share with your UC. A united front matters. You''re the Program Officer now, one of those basic understandings is that other adults give you deference in program decisions. Parameters of a decision, which can allow youth to fail but not to put the Troop in jeopardy, can be part of things. There are ways to accommodate an array of HA activities, not the least of which is limiting by age, rank, or qualification. If your SPL feels like he was blindsided in this (and he is one of your primary foci as SM), then something is wrong, and the decision merits revisiting. Since you''re this far down the road though, accept this truth: Someone will be upset whatever you do. Short term, you will in lose/lose. That is sad, from what you''ve written, someone has set you up for failure.

Dan, I thank you. As a unit serving Scouter, I think the right thing to do is bring the Council''s Surgeon (I don''t know of too many Councils which do not have a physician volunteer somewhere on their Executive Board) into the loop. Then there is a medical professional, who can talk with other medical professionals. Concurrently, he or she, a competent Scouter, can talk Scouting to us Scouters. Then we can do what''s in the best interests of the child, of the unit, and of Scouting.

Lisa, Email sent per your PM. I pray for success John

I''m confused now, can you good folks help here? Are we talking about children who are genetically males, and have female functions? Equally, are we talking about genetically females, and have male functions? Both of those to me sound like birth defects. How and when you deal with the corrective surgery is a big ??? to me. OR Are we talking about genetically correct boys and girls whose parents decide to change them? I''m really confused about where and why we''re here. Thanks, John(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Gern, Please do not get me wrong, it''s not all your fault. Those classes at wood badge about listening and processing info? They''re coming in useful far more often. OK, certain parents nod North and South pre-camp, and go broken and stupid when their kids bellyache. Let''s find ways to deal with that: Phone Call: "Hi Mrs Jones, I''m Billy, Jack''s Patrol Leader. I will be responsible for making sure Jack cleans his tent every day and does his share of the chores. He''s a first year camper, so he may have to learn that I''m the first judge of clean, Dave our SPL is second, and Mr Blansten our Scoutmaster is third. I hope you''re ok with this, are you?" Antoher technique is for PL (or TG) to have this same conversation before camp. When Mrs Jones calls the SM after camp, SM can say "Did Billy White, Jack''s PL, talk with you? What part did you not understand?" Funny. Granted we are a dining hall camp, but by Eagle Son''s 5th summer camp- Warrior year in Mic-o-Say - he knew his KP times, could help out a first year, and still be done faster than most.

FWIW, My hikes for hiking MB, back in the day, came from training hikes for the Silver Knapsack (Western LA Council) and the John Muir (Pacific Crest) trails, and the long one came from one of the days on the trail itself. We had adults, but they tended to hike in a different gaggle than the youth. B can be right about disagreeing. If you meet with the MBC a couple of times before the hike, and lay down the hike plan to him, then maybe you can do without any adults other than pickup and dropoff support. There is more than one way to slice this pie; just don''t get 1/1. BTW, our District Commish and Advancement Chair say meetings in a public restaurant are appropriate and provide the cover the youth need.

There are layers and layers of agendas here. Way back in AP history, Miss Harper taught us a key reason for America''s founding was access to religious freedom. Whether we speak of Pilgrims, Jews, Lutherans, what have you... faith in God was a key component of people''s lives. At the Second Continental Congress, the introduction to our Declaration of Independence itself demonstrates the Founders wanted faith in God as part of the character of life. If you jump to the Federalist papers, you find the Framers believed freedom TO WORSHIP was essential, and that it was not Government''s business how you and I interacted with God. Fast forward to 1947 and Justice Douglas. That''s the trouble point. Now, both sides of the equation, and I admit to being conservative and Christian, are polarized in positions. Last night I heard Pat Buchanan discussing the Balkanization of America as regards the language used in the Presidential debates. Language and immigration are not the only issues where our salad bowl nation is Balkanizing. I have said my peace here. May you go in peace.

I paid for my training myself. I also added it to my miscellaneous deductions on my taxes. So far the IRS has not questioned it.

Welcome to the Forums. There are resources available, but DL Mom has to accept and use them. If not, then with courtesy and tact, you may well have to tell this woman she and her son are done. Ed forgot to mention, I hope: Have your CM and CC contact the Chartered Partner. Deliberately dropping a boy is rarely a good thing in the short term. When the Cubmaster or Committee Chair contact the Unit Commissioner (volunteer) and/or the District Executive (Professional Staff), ask for directions to the District Special Needs resource person. If there is not one, ask for Council level assistance. BTW, asking area Troops for not one but TWO Den Chiefs to cover this Den would be a good thing. One Den Chief works with the den as a whole, the other rides herd on the young man. One other alternative is to ask Mom to step back to being assistant Den Leader and supervising her son, and asking someone else to step up to be the Den Leader.

I respectfully disagree with both Ed and Pete: "They would have left anyway." We don''t grow young men by saying "Don''t let the door hit you in the butt on the way out." That may not have been how the post was meant to say, that''s the message I processed. Feedback IS a gift To Gern: To me, there IS a hard limit to "Scout Run." Adults have to tell other adults how the troop does business. That''s especially true during the transition months of AOL to 1st year LT camp. Yes, the Adult (TG Advisor, SM, whoever) can have a youth do the talking, but the Adult has to be there to say to the new parents: "This is how it is." Paper can be a backup, but conversation is essential. What sort of conversations with New Scout parents do your unit leaders have before that first LT camp?

NO ONE ON ONE CONTACT, except for parent and own child. That''s a fundamental rule of YP. Protects the youth, protects the grown-up too. So you''re planning a 10 mile course for the youth. Have you thought of route design so they almost cannot get lost? Have you thought of how well trained they are on map and compass work? With google maps and topozone, I have far better tools to look at a piece of trail than I ever did with a single 1:62,500 quad in the Low Sierra. If you''re going to hike with them, the ideal option is 4 adults: Two can peel off to support any emergency, and the activity continues. One option in designing the 10 milers is to do an "out-and-back" 5 mile course.

I work on an active Army post. I know the Cubmaster for Pack 1. The Pack has a long history, and has subdivided in such a way that the boys are in reasonable size units, but still get to wear that ONE on their shoulder. He''s a retired Major. His CC is a retired Sergeant Major. Parents including serving members of all ranks, Sergeant to Colonel. Away from work, there''s a lot of collegiality in the unit. Mr Anderson, there''s a dynamic in your unit that''s flat dab unhealthy. I''m glad you''re at the point where kids can earn AOLs and be on their way to Boy Scouting. They''ll be better off to be away from this Pack. Further, military chain of command breaks down, and more so in the Cubbing model. The Den Leaders have first line, weekly contact with the youth. From the BSA website, here are the duties of the CM. You might have the CC print this off and hand it to the CM and remind the CM that the CM reports to the CC and the COR. You can read his whole laundry list at http://www.scouting.org/cubscouts/about/thepack/cmast.html Responsibilities: The Cubmaster''s responsibilities are to -Conduct a pack program according to the policies of the BSA. -Complete Cubmaster Fast Start Training and position-specific Basic Leader Training. Attend monthly roundtables. -Plan and help carry out the Cub Scout program in the pack. This includes leading the monthly pack meeting, with the help of other leaders. -Help the pack committee with a year-round recruitment plan for recruiting boys into Tiger Cubs, Cub Scouting, and Webelos Scouting. -Know about and use the appropriate and available literature, including Boys'' Life and Scouting magazines, Cub Scout Program Helps, and the Webelos Leader Guide. -See that the pack program, leaders, and Cub Scouts positively reflect the interests and objectives of the chartered organization and the BSA. -Work with the pack committee on (1) program ideas, (2) selecting and recruiting adult leaders, and (3) establishing a budget plan. Guide and support den leaders. See that they receive the required training for their positions. -Help organize Webelos dens and encourage graduation into a Boy Scout troop. -Help establish and maintain good relationships with Boy Scout troops. -Maintain good relationships with parents and guardians. Seek their support and include them in activities. Involve male relatives such as uncles and grandfathers so that Cub Scouts will have additional male role models. -See that Tiger Cubs, Cub Scouts, and Webelos Scouts receive a quality, year-round program filled with fun and activities that qualify the dens and pack for the National Summertime Pack Award. -Guide Cub Scouts in goodwill and conservation projects. -See that the responsibilities specified for the assistant Cubmaster are carried out. -Help the pack committee chair conduct the annual pack program planning conference and the monthly pack leaders'' meetings. Work as a team with the pack committee chair to cultivate, educate, and motivate all pack leaders and parents or guardians in Cub Scouting. -Take part in the charter review meeting and annual charter presentation ceremony. -Request den chiefs for all dens and, after selection, see that they are trained. Recognize the den chiefs at pack meetings. -Conduct an impressive graduation ceremony for Tiger Cubs. -Meet with the unit commissioner, Webelos den leader, and Scoutmaster to establish plans for the Webelos Scouts'' transition to Boy Scouting. -Help plan and conduct impressive Webelos graduation ceremonies involving parents and guardians, the Scoutmaster, the Webelos den chief, the Webelos den leader, and the troop junior leaders. -Conduct impressive Arrow of Light Award ceremonies. -Encourage high advancement standards for all Cub Scouts. -Help bring families together at joint activities for Webelos dens (or packs) and Boy Scout troops. -Support the policies of the BSA. As Web DL, you can point him to that "Conduct impressive AOL ceremonies." Pin the rose on him to do his job.

Is the B/G going to feature foilpack dinners and Dutch oven goodies? Congratulations and His blessings on the forthcoming nuptials

Allangr, Welcome to the Forums What FScouter said. That said, I''m in similar circumstance as you. 2003, died 2006. It''s good, FOR THE BOYS, to see you re-take the entire course, if you can afford the time. It''s gives some of the youth reasons to "be better than that old guy."

E, Absolutely concur. Scouting is as good a place for adults to congregate as Rotary, Kiwanis or even Masonic. When we say "serve the youth," we have to remember youth need a safety net, and that''s our job. Now, getting folks to getting bit by the Scouting bug... well, that''s where some of the primae and side activities of Councils... Wood Badge, various specialty training opportunities, maintenance days at the camps, golf tournaments, sporting clays tournaments, all come into play. Making it fun CAN apply to the adults as well. If it''s all scut work, it may be rewarding, but lots of folks won''t come back.

US Army Corps of Engineers, as Part of Truman Lake, operates several superb campgrounds. One such is Talley Bend, located just a few miles from the GREAT H ROE BARTLE BOY SCOUT RESERVATION and Scott''s Iconium Store, home of the world famous Nehi Peach Float: http://www.nwk.usace.army.mil/harryst/camping.htm#Talley_Bend Talley Bend (Corps of Engineers) Talley Bend is located on the Osage Arm of Truman Reservoir approximately 7 miles east of Lowry City, Missouri. Facilities include a boat launching ramp and campground. The campground contains 175 campsites (many with electrical hookups), shower and laundry facilities, and childrens playground equipment. The Talley Bend area has a reputation for excellent blue and flathead catfishing. Paddlefish are often caught in the spring of the year. Directions: From Lowry City, Missouri 7 miles east on State Road C. (Note: Lowry City is on Missouri 13 between Springfield and Clinton.

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