John-in-KC

Lisa hit on something important. There are 24 hours in a day, no more, no less. The sun rises in the east, and sets in the west. Each of us has a limited stock of emotional resources. Joy tends to fill that stock, sorrow, worry, and exhaustion deplete it. Jobs, families, chores, our own training and education, all compete for time with our Scouting choices. Sometimes, we have to make a choice about what we are going to fight for actively, and what we will fight for simply with our own example ... or perhaps even decide to bypass because we know where we are with our resources.

Slightly confused... Co-Scoutmaster with who? I share duties in another task in a different part of the world. We spent quite a bit of time sharing vision, goals and tasks before we actually stepped up to the plate. One ironclad rule: If one says it, the other must endorse it. You cannot allow members to run around Mr Smith to get you to overturn a decision.

Greenbar, Welcome to the Forums! During our interim month from 1st to 2d weekend, our TG was at 2 of our 4 meetings. One of his commitments to us, since he was the Troop for us at that point, was if he''d be straight and true in giving us answers to questions. I''m glad he was my TG, he was easy to work with in developing the items and then in validating them across the months.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Of all the (very few) things I kept from before my wedding day, my MB sash is one of the most cherished items. In a way, it''s a talisman now, a touchstone from me as a provider of the BSA program to youth, to the me who was once a Scout. Eagle Son converted his BSA shirt to adult knots this summer as he passed 18. I will make sure his MB sash stays for him to remember how he got to be a superb young adult.

At Tenderfoot, and 2d Class BORs, a sash may or may not be needed. Some kids are ready for Star as soon as they make 1st Class, though, save their POR, service hours, and tenure. A sash might be useful to the BOR then... it helps them and him focus on the future. At Star, Life, and Eagle, it simply should not be optional, save certain economic situations which SM and CC know about, imo.

I also like both Oak Tree''s and Lisa''s comments. I especially like that this forum is here. If some of the systems of Scouting (Commissioner''s Service) worked as well as they are supposed to, we''d be able to put much of what we say here to the back burner. They don''t, so we ask for help and give help in return. The people here are pretty generally good people.

This thread has been pole vaulting over a mouse turd far too long. To my youth brethren: Let''s apply the KISS Method to the problem. Lodge Chiefs, ask your Advisers and Staff Advisers to go to the Supreme Chief of the Fire (your friendly SE). Ask permission to mint a temporary patch for the right shirt pocket which becomes your LEC member patch. If you really want to get fancy, ask a local MOM with a sewing machine to embroider the word CHIEF on the patch. Buy enough that LECs 5-7 years from now can have patches, and make the production economical from a budget POV. Option B: Push this noodle uphill through the Sections and Regions so the National Officers and the National OA committee can make a decision. Option C: Do nothing. Other possibilities: Has anyone ever thought of the Lodge T-shirt with an LEC member overprint? Has anyone ever thought of a polypro vest with LEC on it to wear over the de la Renta Parlour Scouts shirt? There's more than one way to skin this cat, quit pole vaulting over the mouse turd and get on with doing it! John who once was under 21, isn't anymore, and who prefers "getting it done" to "talking about it" anymore... Edited to add: PS, be careful of what you ask for with option B. You may get a permanent decision you won't like. That's called a second order consequence!(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Lee, Welcome to adulthood. Congratulations on being Lodge Secretary. I think this is properly an LEC decision. Going with just your basic unit shirt, and red tabs, would sure save all of you the expense of setting up a de la Renta shirt to use only at your Lodge functions. Let us know how your LEC decides ICS

Welcome to the Forums! A point of clarity: By our Congressional Charter, we (boy scouting) are not to uniform as the Armed Forces. Even there, we have an exception for the Navy to assist in providing dungaree style utilities to Sea Scouting (Eamonn, do I have that right?). Young boys costuming on Halloween as future military, on a "just this once" basis, feels perfectly OK to this old worn out soldier. I would look at safety though. Early dark nights of Halloween mean dark clothes don''t show up well We want the little ghouls back for their next den meeting after all Of course, one option is to celebrate Oct 31 for its other historic date: Reformation Day, the day Martin Luther hung the 95 Theses on the church door in Wittenburg.

kb6jra, Given where you are, ABSOLUTELY AGREE WITH YOU. I grew up a couple of valleys over, and the Sierra Nevada has backpacking trails to die for... and so far as I recall, there was NEVER A "DRY" CAMP!! Philmont has some magic to it, certainly, but CA, OR, WA, AZ, NE, and ID council camps and local HA opportunities have some truly world class times. For Gern, most of my vacations the last few years seem to involve time at Scout Reservations. Ditto Eagle Sons''(of course, that also includes employment time for him). The young man I saw 3 years ago moving out to his workday for the Tribe of Mic-o-Say was but a momentary glimpse of the young man he''s turning out to be There are worse things in life

Tony, The best two tools in your toolbox: A SMILE on your face (even when you really want to frown). The Cub Scout Sign held high, whilst you stand quietly. Please, please, teach your young men that when you do the sign, they are to come quiet and focus on the person raising the sign. As much as you can, make the sign a prelude to something FUN, be it the game, the project, or the snack. AT THE SAME TIME, please teach other leaders around you not to yell "SIGNS UP!!!!" The screamers really do violate the MIF of KISMIF.

OTOH from Ed, SALES is about business, profit, and rewards. Top salespeople get all manner of bragging rights in the grown-up world. Whether you decide prize or no prize depends in part on what the kids are being offered as a consequence of their sales: BSA popcorn has a pretty good premium catalog. Some Christmas wreath companies only offer money to the unit. You may want to ask your Chartered Partner for input as well. Make sure you''re not violating any policies they have in force. I think this decision belongs to the Pack Committee, with input from the CM and the DLs.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Scoutldr, Considering (per head): Tickets 400 RT (est) 2 hotel nights (even 4 to a room) 50 10 meals - 50 Bus Albuquerque to Philmont - 50 a head Whitewater side trip - 200 (lowball probably)... You''re not getting by too badly. Every one of those add-ons has to make a profit.

Don''t even get me started on "Quality" metrics... Hunt''s right. The Uniform Method relies on voluntary compliance. Anyone and everyone here can say all they want on both sides of the issue, at the end of the day: To any one given Pack or Troop out there... it''s simply moving air. Some units believe in full and proper uniforming. Others, for whatever reason, choose not to. As I said waaaayy up front in this thread: I've seen young men wear their uniforms with pride, and allow themselves to have their photgraph where everyone can see it. Recently, a Scouter beloved in our Council passed on: In his memory many, many young men wore their honor society coup thongs (a part of official/field/A and activity/B uniforms in our Council by Executive Board decision) to school on the day of his funeral. Together Everybody Achieves More Using TEAM can promote good wearing of the uniform... OTOH: Supply Corporation needs to finish the job they started with Switchbacks: High durability, high field utility, lower cost items that meet the woods test and the COH test. The de la Renta uniform is perfect... for PARLOUR SCOUTS.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

It''s me... Regarding the other 7 patrols being food, The Ranger isn''t going to like that, Yogi... (in my best Boo-Boo Bear voice)...(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

$1800 a pop? What is your transportation factor??? Where is your home Council? What opportunities are there not locally, but in your region?

Lisa, I tend to agree with you, but when I''m counseling one of the Citizenships, I have to be careful. My job as Counselor is not to sell my political POV, it''s to inspire the Scout to think for himself.

Lisa, You''ve been given lots of thoughts here. FWIW, my two cents: 1) You''re up north there, and the colder weather is coming. HOT soups and drinks will be a blessing, even at a sandbar mid-afternoon break. Dehydrated soups with canned/pouched meats added in for protein will go a long way. Hot cocoa (or something I discovered making a ham recipe recently... warm milk with maple syrup) put smiles on faces. 2) Gorp, gorp, and more gorp for in the canoes during the travel. 3) The downside of the D.O. anarchist recommends is IF that canoe tips, THEN say goodbye to the D.O. 4) Nothing like a hot dog or a brat over coals ... 5) Foil dinners, using stew meats rather than burgers, can make a meal. I often go a potato, half an onion, 6 oz of meat, two tomatoes, a cup of corn, and 3-4 oz of broth (helps steam the food). 6) A good time to teach kids to make biscuit mix biscuits.

Very, very cool. Enjoy the opportunities Let us share in the joy of the trail, and when you complete! John I used to be an Owl C-40-05

What LisaBob said. Our obligation as Scouters is to report, no more, no less. The Professional Service (Council Scout Executive and his/her District Executives) has statutory responsibilities in most States to formally report child endangerment events. In some States, that responsibility includes risks. Law Enforcement has the resources and the duties to follow up on reports. To my way of thinking, the decision to exclude an adult from unit participation belongs to 3-4 Scouters at the most: The Program Officer (and here I include Den Leaders in Cubbing as well as unit principals), the Committee Chair, and the Chartered Organization Representative. A decision to take a stern measure such as this merits contact with your SE/DE. Reason for edit: Beavah's post (This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

There is an exception to what ScoutNut said. Bears in a 1/1 environment, may participate in council-operated family camps: Wolf and Bear Cub Scouts and Webelos Scouts may participate in a resident overnight camping program operating under BSA National Camping School-trained leadership and managed by the council. (Boldface denotes BSA policy) http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/gss03.html#aa Between Scott and ScoutNut, you have the right training mix. I will suggest attending your District Roundtable, it''s designed to give you a months'' head start on the program. I will also suggest attending a supplemental training either called Pow-Wow or University of Scouting, put on by your Council. It''s an opportunity to receive specific skill training on lots of activities Cubs do! Finally, the six letters of Cub Activities K eep I t S imple M ake I t F un!

I have to wonder if anyone has actually measured how much of out tax dollars, State by State, go into the buildings where our kids go to school (Principal, teachers, and support services)... How much goes into District level overhead ... and what the value added of each bit of overhead really is... and how much goes into State and Federal bureaucracies (sp?) overseeing education, and what (if any) the added value of each bit of THAT overhead really is.

I will simply say that back in the day (1964-67), Mom and Dad refused me permission to work on electives until I had the basic rank in hand. Do the work, then have the fun. Remember that until Webelos, Mom and Dad are the ultimate Akela.

CM Fred: If you want a challenging backpacking trail operated by a local Council, I suggest Western Los Angeles Council''s Camp Whitsett (www.whitsett.org) and their Silver Knapsack Trail. I did it for the first time as a 12 year old! Beyond that, Starr''s Guide to the John Muir Trail is an excellent way to discover the High Sierra on the Pacific Crest Trail. It should be available at any number of book dealers including all the usual online places.

OGO, When you can tell me EVERY SCOUT in your Troop has met First Class Requirement 4a: 4a. Help plan a patrol menu for one campout that includes at least one breakfast, one lunch, and one dinner, and that requires cooking at least two of the meals. Tell how the menu includes the foods from the food pyramid and meets nutritional needs. Source url: http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/32215/firstclass.html THEN AND ONLY THEN would I encourage any form of cooking competition at the full patrol level. Support advancement first. What you''ve done for a 2d Class Scout going to 1st Class is cause him to forfeit an opportunity to do this. Have you thought of having individual cooks register for a competition? Edited in: This is a very hot button issue with me. Five years ago, we had a campout on the far side of the state just before our LT camp for the year. Only about 10 Scouts wanted to go; PLC agreed to consolidate to a single patrol. Eagle Son (then 2d Class) volunteered to be the cook. He had a BBQ-Mac as dinner, dutch oven biscuits for breakfast, and on and on. Good menu, and he'd practiced the tasks at home. PLC overrode him to just mac and cheese. An ASM later tried to chew his butt... SM and I pointed ASM to the SPL (who wasn't on the campout). So now, I'm a bulldog when it comes to protecting menu planning and cooking for 2d class Scouts seeking First Class! (This message has been edited by John-in-KC)