John-in-KC

Heart of America is a 300 series Council. 19K Cubs 11K Boys 2K Venturers 10K LFL 1K Explorers 19K Scouters 980 Packs, Troops and Teams; (I'm wary of the Crew #). Professional Staff is SE + 36 15 Districts +LFL 7 Districts are multi-exec. Two Reservations. Reservation Directors, Rangers, and Assistant Rangers are all FT Professionals. The H Roe Bartle Scout Reservation also has 6-8 maintenance craftspeople FT on the payroll.

Gonzo my friend, 1 + year on, can you give us some feedback?

The CC should not be the one to issue the removal to a unit serving volunteer. The COR approves unit serving volunteer apps for the licensee of Scouting, the chartered organization. Letting him or her be the heavy is often a good thing.

So much for fun... What's your military service, Stosh? When I was a FIST chief straight out of my initial training at Sill, the troopers in my battery loved to ride the BC on morning PT. When we had Battalion Runs, CSM made sure each battery got a chance to ride the Old Man. Why? BECAUSE IT WAS FUN, AND IT BUILT TEAMWORK AND ESPRIT. I've known units whose commanders could not take jokes, and whose cadence calling was as uninspired as left on the left foot, period. One of them was the Big Red One's Division Artillery commander (Colonel) back in the summer of 1979. Division CG relieved him for cause, because he had lost the confidence of his command. There's more to it than not calling jodies, but that was one of the nails. Gunny, I like your ideas. Marine recruiters probably are starting to work on the FY09 mission about now; I'll bet they'd move some to get the Corps in front of some impressionable 11-13 year olds.

It's not outside when: - It requires approval to proceed from the youth member's Scoutmaster, Advisor, or Skipper. (ACP&P p 27, rh column, 2d paragraph.) - It requires approval to proceed from the youth member's unit Committee.(ACP&P p 27, rh column, 2d paragraph.) - It requires approval to proceed from the District or Council Advancement Committee.(ACP&P p 27, rh column, 2d paragraph.) - It requires approval of the finished project from the Eagle Board of Review.(ACP&P p 28, lh column, 1st paragraph.) Do the writer-editors at Irving need to clean up the language? Yes! As Beavah has stated, more than once, the writer-editors employed by National do not always cross-compare and cross-parse their words. This is an epic example. Bottom Line, to me comes from p 27, lh column, last paragraph: "Service to others is important. Work involving council property or other BSA activities is not acceptable for an Eagle Scout service project. The service project also may not be performed for a business, or be of a commercial nature, or be a fund-raiser." Like Ed, I'm done here.

I will spin a thread off on this later.

1) Absolute commitment of the Troop Guide to the process for us. I remember when we asked him some questions about the intersession, he said "For the next month, I am the Troop. I will give you direct answers to your questions, or get them in 24 hours." That's one example. Another is how he lived the idea of the Ticket. 2) The fact that the Eagles had a hunt one morning at Gilwell Field ... and shot the BobWhites. 3) One thing that got my dander up to the point I wrote the Course Director and the Scout Executive: The "Scout's Own Service." It was ANATHEMA. Denying the deity of Christ is the same for the Christian as saying "Christ has come" to the Jew, or refusing the Muslim to say "God is Allah and His prophet is Mohammed." Have a real Pastor look at your Scout's Own... look at it in the context of the religious mix of your students and staff. Anathema can happen to any faith stream. 4) To close on a humorous point (for us Owls), the CD/PD (SM/SPL) failed to gather student patrol leaders in the intersession and walk the ground of the 2d session weekend area. Our Patrol did. We knew the space we wanted for our Patrol site. Each of us had positions to stake out. When we were released to establish sites, by Golly, we OWLs got the spot we wanted. When the Beavers complained, we told them "pound sand." When the CD/PD intervened, we told them "did you break up the ground in advance? Did you release the troop by Patrols? No. Deal with it." The CD/PD had that "oh, XXXX" look on their faces, and conceded the ground to us.

The horse must not be dead yet.

(I don't have my ACP&P #33088 to hand, this is gist, someone will have to fill in page #s). IF a Scout is denied an Eagle Scoutmaster Conference (or signoff to same) or is denied Eagle at an EBOR... Then the Scout must be informed about the appeal procedures and his or his parents options to so use them. Once an appeal is lodged, the Council Advancement Committee may handle it, or they may delegate to the District Advancement Committee. The Advancement Committee with then undertake an impartial investigation of facts and circumstances. The output of the investigation include a recommendation to convene a Conference or Board of Review, or not to. If the decision is to hold a Conference or EBOR, and the Scout is successful, the process stops, he's awarded Eagle. If decision is not to, Scout retains right of appeal through the Council Advancement Committee, and ultimately to the National Advancement Committee. The National decision is final and binding. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I will say this one last time: CALL THE DISTRICT ADVANCEMENT CHAIRMAN. DO NOT LET THE SUN GO DOWN UPON THIS DAY BEFORE COMPLETING THAT TASK. He or she can be your ally ... until an appeal is filed. Then, he becomes an impartial arbiter. Beyond that, has someone talked to the COR recently? The more the pot gets stirred, the more likely the Chartered Partner's name is going to end up in the paper. That's bad news, and bad news does not improve with age. Ditto a letter to the editor from Momma saying "Legion Post 123 refused to recognize Eagle Scout Billybob by putting his name on Troop 456's plaque. Troop 456 is chartered by Post 123. Get the COR in the loop. Do the right things, as OGE has said. If you've done the right things, you can look yourself in the mirror no matter the outcome. Hey Ed, it'll probably end up as cobbler... I'm gonna try it in the Dutch!(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Let's see... Obsolete: Check. DA has stopped using woodland Camo pattern and solid green pattern.

What GW said, what FK said. Ask someone who is musical to call a cadence at 120 beats per minute. Here's one: I don't know but I've told BSA is good as gold I don't know but I heard rumors that our Scoutmaster is wearin bloomers Scoutmaster, Scoutmaster don't feel blue Committee Chair he's a wearin them too Hey Hey Scoutmaster Jack Meet me down by the campers trail with your rope in your hand We want to be pioneerin men Hey hey Scoutmaster Jack Meet me down by the campers trail with your fork in your hand We want to be chow-eatin men Hey hey Scoutmaster Jack Meet me down by the campers trail with your fork in your hand We want to be chow-eatin men Hey hey Scoutmaster Jack Meet me down by the swimmin pool with your towel in your hand We want to be swimmin men I suspect Gunny can adapt some other Jodies...

Good place to remind people that President Bush last year signed a change to the Flag Code, PL 110-181 sec 594: Veterans may render the military salute at any flag ceremony, in BSA or not: SEC. 594. CONDUCT BY MEMBERS OF THE ARMED FORCES AND VETERANS OUT OF UNIFORM DURING HOISTING, LOWERING, OR PASSING OF UNITED STATES FLAG. Section 9 of title 4, United States Code, is amended by striking ``all persons present'' and all that follows through the end of the section and inserting the following: ``all persons present in uniform should render the military salute. Members of the Armed Forces and veterans who are present but not in uniform may render the military salute. All other persons present should face the flag and stand at attention with their right hand over the heart, or if applicable, remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Citizens of other countries present should stand at attention. All such conduct toward the flag in a moving column should be rendered at the moment the flag passes.''.

Work boots, grubby pants, work gloves, and cornstarch. Bedroll. I hate the rubber-covered mattresses BSA councils use for staff beds; I keep 2 layers of mattress pads between me and the mattress. Nalgenes, flashlight and alarm clock. Safety glasses. During the colder months, layers. From there I can throw in my shaving kit, underwear, cold-wet field tops and pants, (DOD is the best gear there is when you're doing hard work in rain or wet snow; it's designed for abuse as you know ), and hit the road. In the summer, staff T-shirts, Scout shorts, and Scout sox fill in for the work gear.

The precise words are: In the ELSP workbook 18-927 (online) or 18-936 (at the Scout Center, in bin items): "Projects involving council property or other BSA activities are not acceptable." In Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures #33088 (2007), page 27: "Service to others is important. Work involving council property or other BSA activities is not acceptable for an Eagle Scout service project. The service project also may not be performed for a business, or be of a commercial nature, or be a fund-raiser." From the National website: http://www.scouting.org/BoyScouts/AdvancementandAwards/service.aspx "Eagle Scout leadership service projects involving council property or other BSA activities are not acceptable for an Eagle service project. The service project also may not be performed for a business, be of a commercial nature, or be a fund-raiser." Do these make the matter clear?

Allow me to do my Ed Mori imitation: "...Which is adding to the requirements!" Anybody ready for pie?

Heck, to this day I keep my ruck packed to go and support a need at either of our Scout reservations. No, from where I sit, having a youth bring all 10 essentials each Scout meeting means the SM, the SPL, the TGs, and the Instructors have their heads someplace else. They've not done their homework on the Patrol Meeting or the Instruction period of the Troop Meeting Plan. They've planned to fail... because they've failed to plan. The youth, having to bring a ruck every week, get the burden of covering their betters' hides and lack of planning/coordination.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

I did not see that part about a possible YP violation. If you have suspicion YP was broken, your duty is simple and direct: Contact your SE. Who, what, when, where, how to the best of your ability. Then, Sir, you are done. Think back to our YP training. Once reported, it is in the hands of statutory reporters in the several States, and we go no further. PERIOD.

Kahits, JMO... any C-Team dancing in the ceremony should be that of the Lenni Lenape. They are the nation around which the ceremonies are built.

Based on your input, The best thing is to arm yourself with Requirements #33215, Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures #33088, the various information on MB Counselors at the National website (look at my recent posts, I just did them in another thread)... Understand "what right looks like..." Then ask the SM for a friendly, off-site, non-confrontational cup of coffee. Explain your concerns, and let him give feedback. He may well say "oops" and commit to change by following the program (and perhaps getting some additional training in selected areas). If he does not understand/accept the need for change, then contemplate next steps, of having similar cups of coffee with the CC, COR, and UC. Beyond that can wait 'til we see what happens with a friendly cup of coffee.

Gotta agree with Beavah that the outside Counselor should have been asking questions before he accepted the boy for work on the MB! There may be systemic advancement weaknesses in this District. Sigh.

It was designed by Oscar de la Renta... The earlier article implies National knew about it, but made an economic decision that the fight was worse than the night. (Ducking and running)...

Of course, what a Council Camping Committee puts in the Leaders Guides and/or Program Guides for their various camps may not strictly conform to what National says. The designated staff uniform at my local Scout Reservation last weekend was: - BSA standard shorts OR - Venturing shorts (to include selected substitutes) OR - Philmont shorts OR - Reservation shorts AND - Any Scout belt AND - Staff T-shirt AND Socks appropriate to the shorts Staff saluted at Colors. The desired uniform for Campers during the program day was: - Camp T-shirt AND - Blue shorts AND - Closed toe shoes and socks. For Campfire, the desired uniform was the Cub field uniform. Were my Camp Director (an Asst Council Commish) or Reservation Director (Professional Staff) going to restrict a camper for not being in uniform? Uhhh let me think ... they're paying customers ... I think NOT.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Add nothing to the requirements. Take nothing from the requirements. Yes the above are paraphrased, but they are in both Advancement Policies and Procedures #33088 and Requirements #33215. Here's my question: If a Scout fails to bring his ruck to a Troop meeting, when it comes time for SM Conference and/or BOR, are you going to get on his case about it? If yes, how do you resolve that with National Advancement policy?

One has to look at the process in progression within the Order. The entry phase, Candidacy into Ordeal, is designed to test the mettle of the young man. He's pushed, malice aforethought (or should be). Working even during adversity is a key learning point, emphasized in the meaning of the 3 Ws. The second phase is designed to be introspective. Teaches the youth to look into his mind and his heart, and that a community must share its burdens. The phases must be taken as a whole.

jaxvol, Listen to OGE. You're way too far down in the details. What the Scout is complete/is not complete on will sort itself out. Right now, as a CC, the best thing you can do is audit your Troops procedures. Are you following the BSA advancement program? That includes selection and training of Scoutmasters, ASMs, Committee folk (you and advancement coordinator in particular) and MB Counselors? From what my District does, if there are questions about a MB, there will be questions about unit procedures. Further, the local Council folks are the decisionmakers here. You can say "I read it at scouter.com", and they'll say "Right. Now about....."? We can advise. We cannot, especially at our remove in distance, tell you you're going to be OK. What we can do is what OGE has done: "But, beyond all quibbles and questions, if you know you did the right thing, then you did, it just may take some time for others to come to the same realization " ... We can encourage you.