John-in-KC

Ms Summer, Like Neal, good hunting to your son tonight. Know he'll be in my prayers, as will the Committee and SM. Let us know what results, please!

I serve as RT staff in my District. We occasionally have events which are specifically structured for SPL attendance: Camporee planning (where we want their input), SM/SPL symposium (are the youth leaders running the Troop), ... But as a general rule, unless the SPL is coming for his own Eagle Project or to OA chapter because he's an Arrowman, no.

I do know a couple of people who've made sure the base of their staff will allow a rubber foot from a medical crutch to be slid on. The rubber does help if you are more on rocks than on dirt.

Individual Councils are implementing training mandates as conditions of folks rechartering. I can look you in the eye and tell you my Council will not accept new principals for the 2010 charter cycle who are not fully trained for their position (CM, SM, Coach, Advisor). Check with your UC, DC, or DE to find out what your Council is doing.

GoldFox, Use all your resources. That's one of the key tenets of Wood Badge. In this case, don't be the one to take the bullet. Your District Commissioner can help. Within your Council, there is certainly one priest who is a Scouter. There may also be a guy like a good friend I have ... Vigil Honor, Silver Beaver, Knight of Columbus ... and a great believer that we grownups are here to serve the boys first. Ask someone like these guys to be the heavy for you, and have the friendly cup of coffee (or maybe visit in the confessional) with your "friend." If he's being a pain, the best thing to do is find a way to bypass him. Then you can get back to the important stuff of the weekend, including the best way to deal with the worship hour Neil ... will PM you. That conversation is better done off-list.

Agree with most of what you said. As I've stated before, I had some long talks, both in the classroom and on the Greensward of PTC with the NLAS President-Elect, our Pastoral Advisor, and the ELCA Pastoral representative to Scouting. Ken (Narraticong) was there for much of those conversations. I do have to admit he and I come from a denomination where ecuminism in Divine Worship (read communion services) within Christendom is looked askance, and, well, we had a tremendous how-do-you-do after 9-11, where one of our District Presidents took it upon himself to be at the Yankee Stadium memorial, and worship on the same altar as Hebrews, Muslims, Buddhists... There are ways to deal with this. Most protestant Christianity can be lumped into one mixmaster for a weekend devotional, if need be. The theologians may not like it, but Jesus is King of Kings and Lord of Lords cuts through to bone mighty fast. Catholicism takes care of itself. I wish more LDS units could get dispensation from stake presidents to worship in the field Sunday morning. To me, dealing with the matter by faith groupings, letting Council furnish demographic data, is one workable solution. Another solution is simply block an hour for worship, let units do it at unit level, and if a unit wants to host a denomination-specific service, go for it. Part of the reason for my stridency on this issue is what I've endured in WB Scouts Own ... I almost walked away from the course over that, and at least one badly done interfaith at a Council function. Should I read the Bhagavad-Gita or Q'uran? Yes, there's some good wisdom in them. Should I say yes when it's held to me in worship as a sacred writing on par with the Bible? I think not. Yes, both have happened to me.

Heard this at my first LT camp (1968,Whitsett), it's been in my repertoire ever since: Rub a Dub dub, Thanks for the grub. YAY!, God.

Ahh, Neil, you refer to the service we diced to a fare-thee-well in this thread: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=193506&p=1 I posted a link to that thread in my initial post. The problem is, the BSA school solution approaches anathema, as I said a year ago. To quote the last portion of my post a year ago: I know BSA means well, but it should stick to its premise that the family is the responsible agency for faith. This is of eternal importance. As a Scouter, I cannot and will not prosletyze. As a Christian, God calls His people to proclaim the Word as written in Scripture. The tipping point is, within the Scouting community, to allow each to worship in his own way. My thoughts on this matter. Let's look at a fundamental difference: Do you propose to put two Scouts in the same worship service, where one comes from the practice of ... "There is no God but One, and His name is Allah." ... and the other comes from ... "I Am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but by Me." BSA's proper role in matters of faith is defined by the DRP: Its policy is that the home and organization or group with which a member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life. That's Article IX, Section 1, Clause 1 of the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America. (as quoted in ACP&P #33088). Not program guidancy, not policy, but a rule and regulation ... governance stuff. Being absolutely nonsectarian, to me, means enabling your Chartered Partners who are in the faith business, and not getting in the writing of matters faith business yourself. Peace be with you, Blessed Easter, John

Vicki, that's a good point: Most of the time, everything runs like clockwork. It's when a Scouter loses the bubble that this is about the kids growth and development that things go goofy... whether it's ego, lack of /obsolete training, or whatever. Because boards like these are resources for "what right should look like", we see more problems than 98% of units ever will.

That is a very cool outcome. Sometimes we read enough tough love situations that it's good to hear that the friendly cup of coffee really worked! I wish all of you Godspeed and good Scouting.

What does the requirement say? A point of Scouting is that we don't have discretion in modifying the requirements. If you think the catapault meets the requirement, and the kids did it after they began their Web 1 year, good enough. I agree with imasoonerfan. When I was an ACM, we don't let kids double/triple/quadruple dip either.

What Neil said, But here's a resource on the trail ... because CC positions do not change that much between the 3 youth programs. http://www.scouting.org/cubscouts/aboutcubscouts/thepack/pcomm.aspx Pack Committee Chair Qualifications: Is at least 21 years old, subscribes to the Declaration of Religious Principle, and agrees to abide by the Scout Oath or Promise and the Scout Law. Possesses the moral, educational, and emotional qualities that the Boy Scouts of America deems necessary to afford positive leadership to youth. Is appointed by the chartered organization and registered as an adult leader of the BSA. Is a person of good character, familiar with organization procedures, with a deep concern for the pack's success. Preferably is a member of the chartered organization, respected in the community, who shows the willingness and ability to be the Cubmaster's chief adviser. Responsibilities: The pack committee chair's job is to * Maintain a close relationship with the chartered organization representative, keeping this key person informed of the needs of the pack that must be brought to the attention of the organization or the district. * Report to the chartered organization to cultivate harmonious relations. * Confer with the Cubmaster on policy matters relating to Cub Scouting and the chartered organization. * Supervise pack committee operation by 1. Calling and presiding at pack leaders' meetings. 2. Assigning duties to committee members. 3. Planning for pack charter review, roundup, and reregistration. 4. Approving bills before payment by the pack treasurer. * Conduct the annual pack program planning conference and pack leaders' meetings. * Complete pack committee Fast Start Training and Basic Leader Training for the position. * Ask the committee to assist with recommendations for Cubmaster, assistant Cubmasters, Tiger Cub den leaders, Cub Scout den leaders, and Webelos den leaders, as needed. * Recognize the need for more dens, and see that new dens are formed as needed. * Work with the chartered organization representative to provide adequate and safe facilities for pack meetings. * Cooperate with the Cubmaster on council-approved money-earning projects so the pack can earn money for materials and equipment. * Manage finances through adequate financial records. * Maintain adequate pack records and take care of pack property. * If the Cubmaster is unable to serve, assume active direction of the pack until a successor is recruited and registered. * Appoint a committee member or other registered adult to be responsible for Youth Protection training. * Provide a training program for adult family members. * Develop and maintain strong pack-troop relationships, sharing with the troop committee the need for graduations into the troop. * Work closely with the unit commissioner and other pack and troop leaders in bringing about a smooth transition of Webelos Scouts into the troop. * Help bring families together at joint activities for Webelos dens (or packs) and Boy Scout troops. * Support the policies of the BSA.

I agree with Scouter760, right up to the point (that we see in another thread) where a SM decides to play fast and loose with the rules, and runs roughshod over the E-team. If the youth are allowed to fail, a bad election happened. The adult accompanying the E-team needs to know when to step in with the SM and keep the election from being bogus. As I've said elsewhere, I've seen SMs run roughshod over the Chapter Chief at RT, and it takes the Chapter Adviser being the "hammer of God."

Our family didn't like the traditional bedtime limerick... so.... Now I lay me down to sleep I pray the Lord my soul to keep Guide me safely through the night And wake me with Your morning light. Amen

Beavah makes a good point. You do have the option of confronting them first. If they listen, repent, and demonstrate change, it's dealt with. There's another part of Matthew 18, though. If they are unrepentant, you move to the next step. I just never hope I have a leader who has a midnight emergency to get a youth member out of a camp, for any number of reasons ... and that leader gets nailed with DWI.

Faith's role in Scouting is central and pivotal: The first commitment of a Boy Scout in the Oath is "to God." The last proactive commitment in the Law is Reverent. Those are the bookends inside which you find everything else. When we speak of the District or the Council, their most vital purpose is to provide support under Charter Agreements to Packs, Troops, Teams and Crews. Who does the predominance of chartering Nationwide? Churches, synagogues, temples and mosques. It matters not if the chartered partner is Buddhist, Hindu, Ba'hai, Lutheran, Methodist, Catholic, LDS, or a non-religious actor. Our duty, when we speak of Scouting beyond the unit, is to furnish support to the unit and the chartered partner. We obligate youth and their families joining the program to the DRP. We like to talk a lot about Chartered Partners holding up their end of the bargain. Well, this is a case where Scouting gets to hold up its end of the bargain. And if that means revisiting how we structure worship opportunities at District and Council events, so be it.

My advice stands, except bypass the COR. Go to the Executive Officer of your Chartered Partner. You had charge of youth program members. No alcohol. Report this to your SE.

1) Find a new Troop for your son. This is bright line territory to me. 2) Contact the Chartered Organization Representative. Explain to him why you're leaving. 3) This is imo a yp reportable incident. Call your Scout Executive. http://www.scouting.org/YouthProtection.aspx Member responsibilities. All members of the Boy Scouts of America are expected to conduct themselves in accordance with the principles set forth in the Scout Oath and Law. Physical violence, hazing, bullying, theft, verbal insults, drugs, and alcohol have no place in the Scouting program (emphasis added) and may result in the revocation of a Scout's membership in the unit. http://www.scouting.org/healthandsafety/gss/gss04.aspx The Boy Scouts of America prohibits the use of alcoholic beverages and controlled substances at encampments or activities on property owned and/or operated by the Boy Scouts of America, or at any activity involving participation of youth members. (boldface denotes policy in this paragraph)(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

RememberSchiff... Look at the list you posted. Notice something. Unlike Boy Scouting, where our expectation is the 12 points 24/7... In Cubbing each point of development is worked on at a discrete moment in time. Cubs have yet to put it all together. As I've said earlier, I do believe there is room for the CM to encourage the body. I also believe this incident was in the context of the school, not the Scouting experience. It's not our job to re-assess and re-award consequences

You made me do it: From the DRP: Its policy is that the home and organization or group with which a member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life. Since the DRP is part of the Rules and Regulations of BSA, our mission is to provide support to the families that enroll in us, and the Chartered Partners who contract with us for our program. Scouting itself is nonsectarian. Its legitimate place is to enable faith, not to be a substitute for faith. When we do generic namby pamby mix and match Scouts' Owns that try to combine faiths, we're crossing the bright line to being a substitute.

Welcome. There's no rule against it, but since the SM and the CC usually both can sign checks for the unit, it's not a good operating practice. Real world, non Scouting example: A few years back, a good friend was President of my church. By his office, he's on the staff evaluation and compensation committee. His wife is our director of music, and she's on the payroll. He did the right thing: Stepped out of the room for those discussions. To me, the right thing is there's plenty of work to be done in a Troop, no need for H/W to carry the full burden of principal unit leadership.

Trev, Maybe yes. After all, the State requires us to get a license before we marry. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Now, as to whether or not BSA will change: Go look at the 1000lb silent gorilla in the room: Our largest Chartered Partner, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. IMO, BSA changes, they're gone, and that's a LOT of $$$$$ support gone to the National Council. From a perspective of smaller chartered partners, we'd see the Roman Catholics gone instantly. We'd see the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod gone. We'd see a lot of postmodern independent evangelical churches gone. For all of them, the position is simple: God doesn't change. Just because we think we can change, God doesn't change. If we change, that'll be their reason for hitting the exits. I would not count on change anytime soon.

Agree with Lisa and Eamonn. If my child had been the victim, there'd be some long talks with the school district. Hotdesk, Lisa's right... This is Cubbing. The Promise and the Law of the Pack are mere shadows of the Boy Scout Oath and Law. There are no requirements to demonstrate spirit in daily life. And I agree with Ed on the fudge

Having spent a lot of time, as did Narraticong, talking this issue at PTC last summer... If a faith-based Chartered Partner desires to run a denomination-specific service during "church hour" of your event, help them to make it happen. Talking with Pastors who are no less than District Commish in their Scouting lives, folks with MDivs if not Doctorates, the order of desirable options is always from the specific (better) to the general (not as good). Generic interfaith is the least desirable form of worship service, because the theology is watered down to the point it's just not acceptable across the bright lines of faith groupings. In your specific case, may I suggest your DC and DE have a quiet talk with the one groups' COR, to find out the objections? It seems to me by offering them up as an alternative to the generic service, you can kill this monkey easily. Another alternative is to simply make units responsible for their own worship.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

To the Old Hundredth... Be present at our table, Lord Be here and everywhere adored These mercies pass and grant that we May feast in Paradise with thee. Amen. If within the Christian community, Luther's table prayer is short, sweet and to the point Come Lord Jesus, be our guest And let these gifts to us be blessed. Amen