John-in-KC

Hello. Welcome to the United States Department of Homeland Security. In order to serve your search warrant better, your call is being monitored and your phone number has been taken down: - If you are a Veteran, press 1. - If you own a firearm, bow/arrow, or knife, press 2. - If you attend a church, synagogue, temple, or coven, press 3. We'll be right there. Am I cynical? You bet.

Duplicate post. sigh.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

My only thought: Personal Management is part of the 3 "90 day" merit badges. I don't know how many youth don't do it until they are Life Scouts, and, in some cases... with their projects in process. If I was the Chairman of whatever volunteer works with the VP for the Council Solutions Group at National, I'd change Personal Management to being required for Life Scout. Beyond that, I think all concerned need to re-visit where we are and what we do. Look at the new Eagle app. More data the young man has to collect (now we've added email addresses for the references). My thoughts only.

to HiCo... Good luck selling that position to SE's and Council Exec Boards that are setting these policies. My gut says you'll get the "bedbug" response.

First, the training... Fast Start for the Boy Scout program This is Scouting Youth Protection Training THEN, they can start reading. As regards skills, earlier editions of any manual may have skills which are no longer best practices. That's especially so in first aid and LNT outdoorsmanship. As regards values, I agree that several older tomes are better than the current stuff.

Barry, I'd be very surprised if any of us weren't that way as older teens and twenty-somethings, especially with our parents ...

Here is the definition now used by the US Army: An Army leader is anyone who by virtue of assumed role or assigned responsibility inspires and influences people to accomplish organizational goals. Army leaders motivate people both inside and outside the chain of command to pursue actions, focus thinking, and shape decisions for the greater good of the organization. - Field Manual 6-22, Leadership, October 2006 Stripping the militarese out: A leader is anyone who by virtue of assumed role or assigned responsibility inspires and influences people to accomplish organizational goals. Leaders motivate people both inside and outside their work group to pursue actions, focus thinking, and shape decisions for the greater good of the organization. The current model defines ATRRIBUTES: - Person of CHARACTER - Person with PRESENCE - Person with INTELLECTUAL CAPACITY It also defines CORE COMPETENCIES: - LEADS - DEVELOPS - ACHIEVES (gets results).

gwd, If you're worrying about if you've done the right thing or not, in my experience, you're probably smack on target! Good weather and good work to Patrick. It IS OK to remind him he's not to be doing the work, but facilitating everyone else. As for the eyeroll, EagleSon gave me one last night on Skype, and he's finishing his freshman year.

Godspeed and Good Hunting today to your son, Ms Summer.

OGE makes a tremendous point. Here's my version: If you're not willing to carry the load, why are you stirring the pot?

Training is not literature. Trianing is contacting the District Training Chairman and taking/retaking Fast Start, "This is Scouting" (actually online now), Scoutmaster Specific, Troop Committee Challenge (I find it useful for ASMs to understand clearly how the committee supports the program), Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills, and on and on. I'd have several long and friendly cups of coffee with your Unit Commissioner. Right now I see only your side of this. Someone close to hand, who can see both sides of all this, is what's needed on the ground. One last point: Choose to burn your bridges with great care. You never know when you will really need that particular bridge, and the need may not come from Scouting.

Hico, I do not know who is right here. I do not care who is right. Forcibly removing a Scoutmaster from a unit is disruptive. PERIOD. It disrupts the youth, it disrupts the adults. It is not a solution to be taken lightly. For that reason, it properly involves the Chartered Partner, through the COR. There are ... I've seen them in my District ... second and third order consequences to such a thing happening. I've seen friendships broken over this stuff. That's not good. I do believe an ASM, who is a program side direct contact leader, owes his Scoutmaster professional loyalty. The Scoutmaster is the Program Leader of the Troop. He is the one who represents the program to the Committee. If a subordinate believes his boss is no longer effective and cannot be changed, he has a limited number of choices: To me, the most honorable is to get to a position where he can voice his frustration without being disloyal to his supervisor. That measn this young man should move to the Committee side, and there voice his frustration in open forum. It also moves the frustration to a public venue, where the SM is somewhat obliged to respond. If I were still a COR, and an ASM approached me about the SM, I'd say "thank you, you are no longer an ASM of this unit. I will investigate your concerns diligently, but you're on the sidelines. I need your candor, and I cannot allow any issues of loyalty to get in the way of that candor." An IR/COR approves the SM year to year. The IH/COR should want the unit, want the SM to be successful. The IH/COR doesn't need an independent free-actor running around. Does this make sense?

As Beavah has said, you ask your friendly Professional Service DE for a copy. That said, you can find the DRP in ACP&P #33088, as well as the youth and adult apps, as well as the Manual for Chaplain's Aides... ACP&P has selected portions of R&R as regards the DRP in R&R format.

First I mis-spoke: Eight, not seven, methods of Scouting. Yes, they all work together. Others here are far more eloquent than I. I'm going to let them do the talking , I've made my point: Boys are helped by Boy Scouting on their trail to manhood and adulthood.

Let's begin at the beginning: "The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law." To do that, in the Boy Scouting program, we use seven methods: Ideals. The ideals of Boy Scouting are spelled out in the Scout Oath, the Scout Law, the Scout motto, and the Scout slogan. The Boy Scout measures himself against these ideals and continually tries to improve. The goals are high, and as he reaches for them, he has some control over what and who he becomes. Patrols. The patrol method gives Boy Scouts an experience in group living and participating citizenship. It places responsibility on young shoulders and teaches boys how to accept it. The patrol method allows Scouts to interact in small groups where members can easily relate to each other. These small groups determine troop activities through elected representatives. Outdoor Programs. Boy Scouting is designed to take place outdoors. It is in the outdoor setting that Scouts share responsibilities and learn to live with one another. In the outdoors the skills and activities practiced at troop meetings come alive with purpose. Being close to nature helps Boy Scouts gain an appreciation for the beauty of the world around us. The outdoors is the laboratory in which Boy Scouts learn ecology and practice conservation of nature's resources. Advancement. Boy Scouting provides a series of surmountable obstacles and steps in overcoming them through the advancement method. The Boy Scout plans his advancement and progresses at his own pace as he meets each challenge. The Boy Scout is rewarded for each achievement, which helps him gain self-confidence. The steps in the advancement system help a Boy Scout grow in self-reliance and in the ability to help others. Associations With Adults. Boys learn a great deal by watching how adults conduct themselves. Scout leaders can be positive role models for the members of the troop. In many cases a Scoutmaster who is willing to listen to boys, encourage them, and take a sincere interest in them can make a profound difference in their lives. Personal Growth. As Boy Scouts plan their activities and progress toward their goals, they experience personal growth. The Good Turn concept is a major part of the personal growth method of Boy Scouting. Boys grow as they participate in community service projects and do Good Turns for others. Probably no device is as successful in developing a basis for personal growth as the daily Good Turn. The religious emblems program also is a large part of the personal growth method. Frequent personal conferences with his Scoutmaster help each Boy Scout to determine his growth toward Scouting's aims. Leadership Development. The Boy Scout program encourages boys to learn and practice leadership skills. Every Boy Scout has the opportunity to participate in both shared and total leadership situations. Understanding the concepts of leadership helps a boy accept the leadership role of others and guides him toward the citizenship aim of Scouting. Uniform. The uniform makes the Boy Scout troop visible as a force for good and creates a positive youth image in the community. Boy Scouting is an action program, and wearing the uniform is an action that shows each Boy Scout's commitment to the aims and purposes of Scouting. The uniform gives the Boy Scout identity in a world brotherhood of youth who believe in the same ideals. The uniform is practical attire for Boy Scout activities and provides a way for Boy Scouts to wear the badges that show what they have accomplished. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I'm very proud of my son. I call him EagleSon here. That's to keep his own name private. - I'm proud of him because his life is taking wing. - I'm proud of him because he's learned to associate with good people. That was a direct consequence of Scouting, adult association, and having his own ideals set in bedrock...through Boy Scouting and Venturing. - I'm proud of him because he knows the work has to be done before the fun begins. That came from his being in a Patrol and being in the outdoors. - I'm proud of him because he earned his varsity letter in HS, twice, and earned a merit technical scholarship. That's due to the Advancement Method. - I'm proud of him because he's learned the tough things have a value when they are complete. That comes from his later experiences in the Outdoors in Scouting... from being on the trail at Philmont, to being a candidate for our Council honor camping society, to being a camp staffer at one of our Scout Reservations. I'm proud of my son because he works well in teams... be it his praise team choir at church, his barbershop chorus and quartet, his work in his section in university marching/pep band, and his work in his studio. That's the Patrol Method and the Ideals method coming through, for the Scout Oath and Law are touchstones in his life. - Oh, yes: I am proud that as a consequence of so many of these experiences, he was able to spend an hour seriously talking (but sometimes with great joy and laughter too) to several significant leaders in our metro area and our boy scout council. At the end of that evening, and with over five years of steady growth, he earned the right to say he was an Eagle Scout. From my perspective, let your son discover the outdoors. Let him discover cooperative work in a Patrol. Let him learn that from disorder can indeed come order. I advocate you letting him be a Boy Scout.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

I wish I knew what the Wisconsin Synod Lutherans have, if anything. At one point they were trying to start their own spinoff, but I never worried about it much. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Here's one of the challenges I have: Units under church charter are not supposed to prosletyze for the kids that come in from the street. I agree on not prosletyzing, but I think the chartered partner should be able in worship settings (in camp Sunday morning) to say "this is what we believe." Of course, that goes right along with the duty of a chartered partner to be active in the life of its units. I still remember the camping checklists of my youth: Bible, hymnal or missal were regular checkoffs. If this stuff was easy, we'd have the answers already I enjoy sharing and listening to folks here. BTW, I've said in other places, and I say so here: In the context of our shared Scouting experience, if you are something that doesn't look like my faith, that's OK. We're here to help families raise their kids. I simply ask that when I do worship, you understand that my God has His own thoughts about my beliefs

Just in case you haven't got the point yet... The collective wisdom thus far is we're asking you to think really hard about what you propose to do. BTW, if you're in smaller-city or small-town America, if you get a reputation in the community as a bloody fool in your volunteer work ... it can come back to haunt you in your day job!! I ask yet again: Are you truly certain you want to do this? I hope you perceive many of us are not sure this is a good idea.

B, Thank you for that good and true point.

Yes. It's called the Chartered Organization Representative notifies the Council that Mr A is no longer the SM of your unit. As an ASM, you work for the Scoutmaster. Loyalty. Are you sure you want to go through with this? Do you understand there can be 2d and 3d order consequences? If the ASMs are convinced that the SM must go, then you need to go to the Committee Chair with adult apps in hand... that make you Committee Members vice ASMs. That way, you're no longer tied by loyalty to your supervisor in the program: The SM. That way, also, you have a voice on the Troop Committee. THEN, you lay your case that the SM must go out in a business meeting with the CC. This is not friendly cup of coffee time. You are young bulls charging the established leadership. You need to ask the CC for time and place to have a business discussion. You have to sell him to go to the SM (and they should have each others' back BTW), and talk him into deciding that it's time to step down. If the SM won't step down of his own accord, then the CC has to be sold that it's worth investing the time and energy to go to the COR, and ask that the SM be removed from office. That's going to be humiliating. Are you really sure you want to go through with this? Have you had long cups of coffee with your Unit Commissioner, and gotten his take on your unit? Are you young Turks fully prepared to take over the Troop adult leadership. Do you all have the time it will take, and the $$$? I ask yet again: Do you really want to do this?

Nike, You didn't notice that Billybob Jumpback the W2DL is also the COR. He can make life miserable for the CC and CM for years to come...

GoldFox wrote... Maybe I misunderstood, but I never saw scouting as a religious organization. Does duty to one's religion/God play a part, yes! But it should not be the overriding factor in everything that is done, unless your CO requires that it be. It has a minor part in the Mission and Vision of the BSA as it relates to the Scout Oath and Law. However, I always saw this program as much more about helping to guide young people into being better citizens - not preparing them for a religious ministry. I always believed that one's religion is a private and personal matter. I was taught to respect other religions but also not to push mine down the throat of others. Is it asking a lot to have others do the same? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From the Declaration of Religious Principle (Article IX of R&R of BSA): Its policy is that the home and organization or group with which a member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life. BSA is supposed to be non-sectarian. It should not favor Lutherans, Muslims, Hindu, Catholics, Methodists, American Indian polytheists, Orthodox, Buddhists, Shinto, ... It should support families and churchs as they help each youth member move him along his faith trail to adulthood. That to me is vital. We're not a religion unto ourselves. OK, Scouting expects me not to prosletyze or evangelize. Got it. In turn, don't expect me to sit through watered down mixmastered "worship." I like the old-1911 explanation of the 12th point of the Scout Law (yes, Rick, thank you for your comparison page). It was the one that I learned in 1968: 12. A SCOUT is REVERENT. He is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties, and respects the convictions of others in matters of custom and religion. Respect the convictions. I'm gladly willing to sit down, at campfire, and talk about how our faiths interact. I'm equally willing to have a libation and talk about it in a comfortable setting. I'm gladly willing to sit down in Sunday School, and do ditto. I'm even willing to accept an invitation to see your worship in practice, but understand my mind is in learn mode, not worship mode. One of my bright lines is being expected to actually worship in your practices. That's for you to do. I'll gladly give you time and space so to do. I ask you give the same gift to me. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ To wrap up, there is at least one Christian denomination in the US that will not participate in Scouting because of the faith issue. It's the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod. Here's their explanation: http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?1518&cuTopic_topicID=17&cuItem_itemID=10896 "We cannot participate in Scouting because the oath or promise is a mandatory part of Scouting which cannot be omitted. This promise implies that people of any religion can do their duty to God, even apart from faith in Christ. It is clear in Scripture that we cannot do our duty to God by works and that people who do not believe in Christ cannot do works which are pleasing to God because they lack the right motive. We would not be giving a clear confession to the gospel if we participated in such a system. We cannot have a proper understanding of our duty to God if we have a confused view of the relationship of law and gospel. Scouting is an attempt to use the law without understanding the gospel. Further evidence of this is provided in the answers on Scouting in the archive section of this site. Examples follow: The Boy Scouts are among the most respected organizations in this country, and the skills, activities, and companionship which they offer could be a benefit to any child. Yet for more than 60 years the Wisconsin Synod has warned its members that their children should not participate in the scouting program. Our basic objection to scouting was that the required promise and law contain religious elements which imply that the Scout can do his duty to God regardless of what religion he belongs to. This contradicts the clear statements of Scripture that no one can perform works pleasing to God without faith in Christ." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ As a Lutheran in the LCMS, I'm glad I have the freedom to be a Scouter, to serve our youth, to prepare them for adulthood. If asked, I will share my belief. Otherwise, my faith, while an inherent part of me, is also something that is practiced in how I live my life, and my worship is within my own time, or within my own community. Sorry this is so long, but it's a passion.)(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Like Lisa, I can tell you I saw nothing like that in my course materials. I went through in 2005. Because of the multi-generation reproduction, I'm betting it comes from some AWLD SKOOL WB course somewhere. Personally, I'd take it and dump it in the trashcan. You have other products (and frankly better ones) already in hand.

This is why not to have your COR be a direct contact leader. His position trumps yours. He can say "it shall be so," and it's done. It's called the Chartered Partner owns the unit. Now, would that be taking license with his responsibility? Yeppers. Even so... we see lots of people here take license with their responsibilities. I'd have the quiet cup of coffee with the gaining SMs.

Here's the bottom line: If you're doing a pool, and your major tool is a buoyancy belt/float, a pole, or a rope, then ARC is for you. ARC PREMISE: No one does open water swimming anymore. If you're doing open water, and your major tools include GOING to the rescue, the BSA LG is for you. BSA PREMISE: We swim in open water still Gern, to be honest, have any young person who wants to work the pool do both.

Ms Summer, Good hunting round two