John-in-KC

Semantics, SN, semantics. That's all it is. All professionals are members of the BSA professional service. They may be specifically hired, fired and paid by local Councils, but they all report, at the end of the day, to Mr Mazzuca. Very simply, there's a backdoor to a national standard of mandatory training. It's called pin the rose on the local council. The effect, in those councils which have mandates, is the same. No training=no renewal of membership in the specified position. I guess SE's are willing to lose units over this issue. Sooner or later, a unit is going to replace a key leader near recharter time, and he's not going to be trained.

Hey folks, let's be careful about the "not mandatory." Yes, NATIONAL does not have a mandate. Increasingly, LOCAL COUNCILS are setting "conditions of recharter." CNYScouter, a regular here, has shared what his Council does (I think Hizzoner the Judge, nldscouter, is in that same Council). My Council, this fall, will not accept a principal program officer (CM, SM, Varsity Coach, CA), on recharter if he/she is not fully trained at the Basic level for the position. The intent is over the next 3 years to push that mandate down to all direct contact leaders. Yes, our Exec Board and the CORs in annual meeting bought in. I'll let others debate right/wrong/indifferent. I'm reporting a local reality.

OK, I was really the duty commissioner at our Scout Reservation Cub Family overnight program. We really had a severe thunderstorm come through. Ranger got ahold of the Camp Director and PD, and we pushed the families down to the maintenance building. Then we took headcount. We were 2 parent/child groups short. One of the assistant rangers and I spent the next two hours in an active severe thunderstorm looking for parents/children. We were wet and tired when we were done. After the storm, we had to down some broken branches before we could let the participants back to the tentsites. I think I got to bed after 2AM. BTW: The missing families? They had never checked in; our Camp Director hadn't done all his bean counting 14 hours earlier! Sigh. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Severe weather happens. It's reality in Flyover Country. Take the reality, take the paranoid hoverfather and turn it into a win-win! Talk the PLC into taking Storm Spotter training. SM and ASMs take it; insist the helicopter parents do too... Do a little bit of thinking ahead. Suppose a severe storm comes (they're far more likely at any one site than a twister)? Is the tentsite such that tents will be more hazard than shelter? If you decide to go to low ground, how low (flash floods are not exactly uncommon)? Where will youth and adults gather? Who has the rose for bean counting (should be PLs to SPL to SM, and a designated adult to SM). BE PREPARED. A little bit of thinking ahead goes a long way. A walking PLC, where SM/SPL/PLs chalk talk what to do, goes are very long way. BTW, you just might get some kids thinking about Emergency Prep or Weather MBs. Then sit back, relax, grill some chicken over the campfire while the youth members have beanieweenies, and enjoy God's good air

I like what Beavah said. When I was Advancement Guy or CC, my first comment to the Scout was: "The next time we see you, it won't be 'just us' seeing you. There'll be someone from District, who you may or may not know. There'll be someone from the community, who you may or may not know. This is our last chance to share with you the basics of Scouting." And off we'd go. No, no retest. I despise the BOR questions "what are the elements of the Boy Scout Badge?" I want to know what was fun, what was challenging, what activity was important to him, what was make-work. I want his thoughts on what he saw done well, and what he saw done not-so-well. I want to get feedback from his heart on the gut-check values of Scouting: How he interprets the Oath, Law, motto and slogan. HTH.

Gunny and I are in absolute agreement. JoeBob, I like your 3d suggestion. The question of patience by range staff cannot be negotiable. A Scouting range has to have redundancy, so people can slip away for 15 minutes and decompress before doing it all again. When you're range staff inside the range gate, your mind absolutely must be on task ... and that means at least the analytic level of knowledge. Observe, assess, decide, act, followup... cycle again. There's no room to "lose it." Period.

Let's all line up and sing the Barney Song!!!

We'll leave that part be. A range, is a range, is a range. It's a place where we learn how to shoot and shoot safely, it's a place to compete. Depending on whether it's a range season for a unit, or a Basic Training event, the age of ths shooters can run 17-22 or so, or anywhere from 17-50. That's different from Cub or Boy Scouting. We're talking 8-18 year olds, who've not learned discipline. In fact, one of the side benefits of a range is the discipline of following tower or line commands precisely. I remember my first rangemaster, at Camp Whitsett back in the summer of 1968. We had two full days of time off the range before we got to fire. Learned about the components of a .22 rifle. Learned how to use a borebrush, cleaning solvent, and lube. Learned what a good sight picture was. Learned the basics of safety. When we were ready, we went onto the range. I was I think Second Class, but I might have still been a Tenderfoot. Even so, I earned my NRA Pro Marksman award that week. Someplace along the way, since 1968, BSA and NRA moved away from each other. I'm glad we're moving back. When I got to basic training, I learned a whole array of small arms, from the M-16 to the LAW. Ranges are places of training and safety. Inculcate a healthy respect that a pistol, rifle, grenade launcher, hand grenade, machine gun, LAW, tank main gun, or artillery piece has a simple mission: To reach out and kill something. Firearms KILL. Even an old flintlock pistol can KILL. We have to teach the kids to have a healthy respect for the piece of iron they hold in their hands. That doesn't mean in your face yelling. That means teaching. It means expecting, yea demanding, absolute obedience to the line commands from the tower. It means learning that when Tower commands Range, Cease Firing! unexpectedly, the firer comes off position, unlocks the bolt and extracts the round. It means learning to wait patiently while range staff and Tower hustle wherever the need is and sort out the problem. Gunny, what say you? (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

I think Gunny and I agree with you, for the most part, Beavah. 80% of the time, what happens on a range is best dealt with using reasonable voices, calm commands, and lots of extra eyes. The more folks are looking for safe practices and procedures, including the ones on the firing line, the safer everyone is going to be. Sometimes, though, bad things happen. Someone goes forward of the firing when the range is not clear. An animal enters downrange. A weapon hangfires or misfires. An inbore accident happens. A weapon gets pointed not downrange, but at Bobby. Those are the times when a rangemaster has to simultaneously stop all other action on his or her range, as well as get resources onto the unsafe activity. At that point, I may not be (and usually should not be) in the face of whoever's having the problem, but the full depth of my command voice, to include moving air from my diaphragm, not my larnyx, comes to the fore. I want all other action on the range stopped, and I want my staff solving the problem. It's the "control" part of "command and control"... getting the situation back to rights after it has gone south for whatever reason. Rangework demands attention to detail by the support folks. Constant vigilance.

Yeah, Right, Sure... Headline: President Obama forces GM boss Rick Wagoner to step down URL: http://www.nydailynews.com/money/2009/03/29/2009-03-29_president_obama_forces_gm_boss_rick_wago.html

IF the Scout concerned, especially in Cub and Boy Scouting, has a special emotional or mental challenges, then there are procedures to keep him in a program as long as he needs to be there. However, there are upper limits on each BSA program if a child is inside the "normal" range. Contact your District or Council Special Needs coordinator for details.

I come from the Armed Forces range management school. I've been range officer from .45cal pistol to 8" howitzer direct fire. My biggest firing incident ever was when one of my gun chiefs had a 155mm round, charge 2 green bag, be a sticker in the tube. You've never seen men unass a howitzer faster! I have great and good friends who are NRA range officer/range safety officer qualified. They are also Scouters, and understand ages and stages. They easily balance safety, learning, and fun on the range. If a rangemaster understands he's a Scouter always and a rangemaster first, he'll do OK. If he's a pedant first, a rangemaster always, and just a Scouter, there's gonna be a problem. The secret is good people selection when it comes to staff hiring.

Firekat, if your Council routinely turns down unit fundraising apps (chili suppers, car washes, wreath sales, and the like)... then have your COR go to Council Board meetings and have a serious discussion with them. What I'm talking about are unsolicited donations to your unit: Route them through your Chartered Partner. The monkey from Council is then off your back. The IH can look your DE/SE in the eye and say "Excuse me? Are you telling me how to run my non-profit? Let me call the local paper..." How a church chooses to spend money coming into its coffers is up to the church... or the church and the donor if the donation is a designated gift. Yes, Council, as Lisa said, can and does jealously guard the Community and Family FOS campaigns.

I just costed a little league uniform online. If you want decent quality, the floor price is $50 for pants and jerseys. Decent cap is $12. Shoes are $50. A glove is $70. That's $182. The cost argument doesn't wash, especially since Supply Corporation is actually trying to do the right thing with quality, fit and finish of the new garments that are purpose designed for the outdoors.

There were boys both ahead and behind him who'd been held back on entering the public school system, so there was nothing too unusual.

tagguy: That means your Tenderfeet are typically not eligible to do this for their 2d Class Service Hour, correct?

Shortridge, Sadly, I think a PLC letter would get a "bedbug" letter, at the very best, back. Remember also that letter is a hypothetical pipe dream to Scouting mag. There is NWIH they'd ever publish something like that.

It's too bloody bad the editor at Scouter Magazine would never take this question for Front-Line Stuff: My Council Scout Camp is a merit badge mill. The youth staff is unqualified to train MBs, the area Directors and Assistant Directors literally rubber stamp MB apps, and our youth learn not a damned thing. The Reservation Director and the SE only care about the money. How can we get the attention of our Council Camping Committee and Advancement Committee that their program is damaging to youth?---SM J, somewhere in the US Where is Secret DE when we need him? ETA: When I was Advancement Chair of my Troop, it was pretty easy to see that while our Scout Camp was a MB school, the badges were not gifts. I came home with a stack of partials each year that was about a third the size of the completed piles.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Eagle90... Wrong answer, Sir!! You, who are near the Chicago Area Council, should understand the challenges of getting the money right more than most. Do not put your Chartered Partner at risk. Federal/State charitable/non-profit status doesn't mean they avoid the tax radar, it means they don't pay on the parts of their operations so designatred. Do not put your own BSA membership at risk. I've seen Councils strip membership for less. Do the right things, because they are the right things. The added advantage is you eliminate the risk to your Chartered Partner and your own membership. I'm glad my Dad was a CPA.

Follow-on to Lisa: A legitimate way for folks to earmark monies to units is to have a business meeting with the Chartered Partner. Offer the donation to them, to be earmarked for and passed along to the Scout unit. The money stops in the non-profit enroute the unit.

Let's be careful with our terminology: JOINING Cub Scouts is a different matter from CONTINUING in membership (rechartering) in Cub Scouts. His mother and I held EagleSon back at K. It was an ages/stages thing for when he would be older. Had we not done this, he'd have graduated HS in 2007. Instead, he graduated 2008. We had no problem whatsover keeping him a Web 2 and moving him through the program as an 11 year old. He was 11 years, 9 months when he bridged over.

Remember that the new uniforms have the flag and the strip as rubberized bondo stuff, not a separate sew-on.

1) Uniform is not a method of Venturing 2) Youth members may choose whatever works for a uniform. 3) Supply Corporation would like it if Crews bought the complete gray pants/green shirt uniform from them. 4) Those of EagleSons' Crew who do camp staff this summer will buy the BSA standard gray shorts. That is a condition of employment, but they'll get a 25% discount from retail. 5) The Crews' stated uniform gives latitude for Cabela's, Bass Pro, Columbia or REI pants/shorts at other times.

From what the local state highway department engineer tells me, he calls the Gendarmerie if there are younger than 15 year olds working AAH. Considering that the two-lane roads do not have shoulders, his judgment that it's a safety issue may be founded. Point is this: Check with your State Department of Transportation and the local Polizei before putting youth members on the shoulders.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

What Lisa and Barry said. First, don't worry about pushing this kid up the line. He's 16, and should have some idea of who he is. We're talking different ages and stages for him. Have a LONG Scoutmaster conference with him, perhaps even offsite. A breakfast with him and one of his friends may well be in order. Find out what makes him tick. Help him get as much personal growth as he can while these young people are all together. Tell him it's OK not to go for Eagle, but that if he truly wants to push and challenge himself, you'll support him. KNOW that because of the timing, he will be a near aging out Eagle to begin with. Once you understand what makes him tick, you can help him along the trail to take advantage of Scouting even while he approaches adulthood. If you know his HS teachers are Scouters and MB counselors, you might try to leverage whatever he's doing for due course recognition.

The Venturing model, if you follow BSA's literature, emphasizes finding your youth first, then organizing a Crew around them. In the original thread, both Buffalo Skipper and emb021 advocate it's ok to organize first, then find the youth. I'm a parent of a university freshman. EagleSon has been a busy young man. Studies, band, lessons, barbershop music (he does that too), church, THAT youth group, THAT choir, and his Crew all compete for his attention. I noticed, last year as a HS senior, he picked an opportunity because he'd be there to help get it off the ground. He had FUN, and so did the rest of the original group, getting things started. He does fall in on things... witness church. I guess my question is: If it'a bunch of us old farts going out and hunting down the potential youth members, how do we get above the noise level that represents a HS junior/senior/college freshman?