John-in-KC

Having been a CC when young men were coming up for Eagle... IF I got a packet with four bad letters of reference, I'd immediately adjourn and defer subject to recall the EBOR without even interviewing the boy. It's time to do some serious question asking. That's all the more true if the reference do not square with what I know of the Scout. Next, I'd ask the SM to convene a SM conference with the Scout: "Is there anything we should know about which would cause any of your references to be negative about you?" I'm not a policeman, but if my picture of the Scout is that distorted from his references, I have to get some ground truth. Only after I was convinced of the picture I'd seen would I reconvene the EBOR. At that point, there'd be an executive session, to make sure we were on the same sheet of music: This is probably an EBOR where the Scout will not advance. And then it begins. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Now, if the references CONFIRM what I know of the Scout (he's not a good actor), I may also adjourn the EBOR subject to reconvening, but after I do... - I call the DAC forthwith, and let him know there's an ugly one coming his way. I want him in my court for any appeals. - Ditto my DE, COR, and UC/DC. - I ask the SM to sit down with the Scout and ask the same question as above: I leverage the SM to work the "no surprise" angle "You understand you may not be elevated to Eagle, don't you?" WHEN we reconvene the EBOR, there will be an extensive executive session. Then bring in the Scout, and let him have his say. Will he be elevated? Probably not, but I'll have done my share of the lifting.

I have a good friend who is a UMC COR. I will ask him. In return, may we ask why you're asking the question. It might help us focus our efforts... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ETA: Just talked to him. He's also a UC in our District. - Parish and Troop have good working relationship. - Parish meets obligations of charter agreement to provide facilities and leadership management. IH/COR are involved in unit leader selection and oversight. - Parish does not fund unit operations. - Parish has not required an audit of the Troop books in this man's knowledge. HTH.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Shortridge, The problem is our youth member brothers are being blown off by SMs in Troop Meetings when they come to run an election. What makes you think they'll be listened to by the same Scoutmasters at RT? No, this is a time for the Chapter Adviser to step in and do his imitation of an authoritative adult laying down the law, imo.

Actually, there's a group in California who wants to get California out of the marriage business. The governmental institution of joining anyone will be called Civil Union. Those who choose to have the ceremony solemnized in a church will have a wedding. Their proposal is to have the state do a "search and replace:" Wherever law or regulation says marriage, it will be changed to read civil union. They're in the process of gathering signatures for an initiative now. I wish them well, it's something I can live with. Get Government out of the marriage business.

If cleaning the kybo is given out for an offense not related to dirtying the kybo, then yes, it can be perceived as a punishment. Now, if Billy took a dump on the floor of the kybo, instead of using the hole, then yes, cleaning the kybo is his basic responsibility, not punishment. In giving out Article 15 non-judicial punishment in the military, we gave out "Extra Duty" (taking away free time of Troopers) as one of the punishments. Cleaning the latrine was a common task given to Troopers under punishment. Why? Because cleaning the latrine was usually totally unrelated to the offense in the first place. My take.

They'd known each other since Cubs. Several were teammates on football; he and other were in band together. Here's a compromise to get the Troop inside the basic church, vice the rental: TWO ECOHs. Strip that cost right out. BTW, if the Troop wants 7 at once, and the kids/families not necessarily don't, then parents look CC in they eye and say "that's not OUR bill, Mr Stuckee. You're imposing that burden on us." That'll get his attention!

1) Mr Scoutmaster, YOU are the program officer. YOU sit down with the CC someplace offsite and have a friendly cup of coffee. You establish the program standards within the broad context of Scouting guidelines. You'll find them in the Scoutmaster Handbook. 2) No, there is no prohibition against parents signing off on their kids. Wise leaders don't most of the time, because that helps set a higher bar for the rest. 3) When you and the CC are on the grid together, you have a friendly visit with your COR and make sure your collective vision and goals conform with your Chartered Partner. 4) Then... the rest of the parents can sign up, or move along. For those that move along, that's the sound of helicopters leaving the area... 5) On the Eagle candidate... look at the BSA requirements objectively. Visit with your UC on the young man. If you cannot in good faith sign his Eagle app, speak with him, immediately follow it up in writing, and tell him how to improve or how to go to the next step. Then, if a District or Council appeal board decides otherwise, you've done what you need to do in good faith. Just don't play headgames with the Scout

And, oh by the way, the values of society are not the values of God. Besides, to quote the song from Dr Demento... I owe a lot... to Iowa Pot... Iowa grown and grand I never knew Such beautiful boo Grew in this groovy land I was born in And I am indebted indeed To Magical weed Iowa grown and grand, OH... I owe a lot to Iowa pot and that's not just Iowa Corn... I owe a lot to Iowa pot and that's not just Iowaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa Cornnnnnnnnnnnnn... With apologies to Dr Demento and Napoleon XIV (This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

As I said, we were professional enough to recognize the fickle finger of fate for PL each day, and our collective decision was "the stuckee of the day deserves our support and friendship." Wisdom = Experience gained with tears, so said my shop instructor and HR teacher in Jr High 40 years ago. Yeah, he was right, we'd all been there, and our collective decision was we wanted to have FUN. You should have seen our menu for weekend 2. WE ATE GOOD! We divvied our labor up for the patrol project. Couple guys had good carpentry skills, one had access to a plotter, one was great at research, and one was a speechwriter. So, we put it all together, and around the crackerbarrel, finished the job.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

ABSOLUTELY agree with shortridge. SM opportunity to influence election ends when he delivers his list of qualified Scouts to the E-team. That said, when E-team asks if there is anyone who thinks they were omitted from the list, SM does have the right to take any Scout who raises his hand aside into a SM conference. Now, THAT SAID, we're back to "No surprises." If a Scoutmaster deems a Scout ineligible to stand for OA election, he should have already had THAT SM conference with the young man. May I recommend an Adviser Letter to every SM, and some training at RT between CA and SMs on election procedures? Sigh.

I apologize Ms Summer... In a perfect world, your son's SM approval would have been a given. Over 95% of all Eagle candidates never have a problem. Your son is in the 5%. What Ed and I and Vicki are debating here, and it's a distraction to you and your son, is that the Eagle SM conference, unlike other conferences, has a P/F significance: The SM approves the candidacy by personally signing the app. We're past that phase with your son. The SM won't. We've been advising you on the next steps, so we can try to get him to an EBOR. Your son's EBOR will almost certainly be the consequence of an appeal process. Most likely, the District Advancement Chair will have another SM give him his conference. Most likely, the District Advancement Chair will have three of his most experienced people give the EBOR. Let's keep you, and him, focused on the tasks at hand

V, YES. EXACTLY. The Scoutmaster has an "I approve" in Eagle Candidacy. It's not just a participation requirement. Thanks for watching my back Ed, Please go back and review ACP&P. The Council Advancement Committee has some discretion in how they implement National policy. One of them is how a Life Scout makes his final approach to Eagle. The Council can, and in this case does, apparently set a policy that the Scout (or unit) will deliver a shell to the reference, and the reference fills it out and returns it. The key point I read is that the Scout is not supposed to handle the references after they are completed.

With the exception of a 20 year old wet behind the ears college junior who couldn't find his common sense with a map, a Magellan GPS, and a navigator on a good day (in other words, he'd have yet to have his first real AW, S@@@ moment in life) ... NO. Useless. Every member of my patrol had 20+ years in the workforce, most of us in professional positions. We normed real quickly (we want to cooperate and graduate, we want to have our own fun in doing this), and with the exception of Bozo the Munificent (let me tell you what I really think...), we didn't storm. The twerp had the unmitigated gall to tell us that we needed to think of this as 11 year olds again. BULL **** . Been there, done that, and been through Basic Training to boot. The last thing our patrol needed was someone trying to play the time pressure game on us, as as substitute for "not having had the opportunity to learn new skills" yet. Yeah, we stormed, on him. We humiliated the sonofagun. He proved worthless in weekend 2 (forgot the stuff he had promised to deliver as his share of the campout, fortunately, we all had "something" in our packs for such an emergency)... and he was the one person in our course who never finished his ticket. No, the self-assessments were useless. They came at an hour of the day when we were naturally tired, and the best thing which would have helped us was another 30 minutes of sleep. They don't pass the so-what, who cares test. Oh, yeah: We told our Course Director, and the SE of the host Council, as well... Next.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

SSScout, If that be the case, then you need to have each adult run their BSA leader app and get on with it. For a while, my Troop did what you said... then we realized that the noises we were hearing were those of the helicopters.

Shortridge, in the context of not wanting the Scout to look like a lawyered-up smart-aleck. Precisely. This Troop, from what we read, already has an animus against this Scout. Fuel on the fire just won't be helpful to his case.

I was CC for a year after EagleSon moved up from Cub to Boy Scouting. I know lots of Packs, Troops, and Crews where a non-parent is part of the leadership. Scouter membership, YPT, 2-deep, no 1-1 contact, appropriately trained for his position? NO PROBLEM. IMNSHO.

Sounds to me like some CD had one or more recalictrant participants, so he stuck the PD (SPL) with the heavy lifting. I'm trying to figure out the circumstances where the course leadership would have to remove a participant form patrol leadership in the first place...

No, Ms Summer, YOU keep ACP&P. It is not a youth program item. Him having it may well be throwing nitro-methane on this fire! It's OK for you to have it prominently displayed though.

CC serving as Treasurer? I'd do what Beavah says... visit with your COR.

uz2bnowl, I agree with your very last but remember an 8-18 year old Scout is not a 45 year old man with experience and judgment ... and hopefully as a shooter a lifetime of following tower commands. Even so, there's no excuse to humiliate that 8-18 year old Scout. We can do the needed retraining without the humiliation.

uz2bnowl, I agree with your very last but remember an 8-18 year old Scout is not a 45 year old man with experience and judgment ... and hopefully as a shooter a lifetime of following tower commands. Even so, there's no excuse to humiliate that 8-18 year old Scout. We can do the needed retraining without the humiliation.

Ms Summer, Hang in there. Offer to buy the District Advancement Chair and the District Director a cup of coffee somewhere, and visit on what you know. Make certain you understand what your son needs to provide to them. The advice about MB cards and rank cards is a good idea at this point. Ask the District Director to bring a copy of your sons ScoutNet advancement record. Ed, Please go back and review the current Eagle app. The Scoutmasters' approval is required by personal signature, before the pre-EBOR council processing.. Also go back and review ACP&P #33088. The method for providing Eagle reference info is spelled out, to include the option for the Council Advancement Committee to have the Scout deliver shells of reference forms (and mail-in envelopes).

EagleSon was part of 6 at once Part of it is economies of scale. Invitations, congratulatory letters, programs, ... There can be a LOT of work in an ECOH, and the young men, while they can and will be helpful, have school and still their Troop or Crew. Congratulations to these seven

I love Tatoo, as a musical piece. http://bands.army.mil/music/bugle/calls/tattoo.mp3 http://bands.army.mil/music/bugle/tattoo.asp I lived in the historic buildings at Fort Riley in my first duty assignment; one of the Main Post loudspeakers for bugle calls was less than 100 meters away. It was something special every night as I drifted off to sleep. Even so, the history of Tatoo is: Tattoo originated during the Thirty Years War, 1618-1648, and in German was called "Zapfenstreich." At 9:00 P.M., as the call was sounded, all bungs (zapfen) had to be replaced in their barrels, signifying the end of nightly drinking. The provost guard then drew a chalk line (streich) across the bung so that it could not be reopened without evidence of tampering. Tattoo is the longest U.S. Army call, consisting of twenty- eight measures. The first eight are from the French call "Extinction de Feux" and the last twenty measures are from the British "First Post" - in turn adapted from an old Neapolitan Cavalry call "Il Silencio". http://www.kmialumni.org/bugle_calls.html I'd much rather see a Boy Scout Troop using "Call to Quarters" http://bands.army.mil/music/bugle/calls/CallToQuarters.mp3 http://bands.army.mil/music/bugle/calltoquarters.asp It "signals all personnel not authorized to be absent to their quarters for the night."

gwd the Scoutmaster doesn't look bad either