John-in-KC

One place where the unit is getting creative: The Eagle Advisor holding back on sending out the letters to the references. You, not son, contact District Advancement Chair. Explain the release of Eagle reference forms to your sons references is being withheld by the Committee Chair and the Eagle Advisor. Ask him for the formats used. Then have your son deliver those to his selected references. Ask him to hold them in confidence until either he or the Eagle Advisor gives a "send to" address. If the Troop goes forward, he's given them a jump start, and the clock is ticking. If the Troop denies, your son asks the District Advancement Chair if he will receive them. I assume yes. Then, your son gives the DAC's address to the references.

For regulars here who have a presence on FB, I just created a FB group for us. It's called: The Scouter dot Com Facebook Group Only one rule: Kudu cannot rail about leadership development.

Uhhhh.... Mr Roberts needs to call his DE and ask for a copy of his ScoutNet record. He'll find YP listed... after all, the online course originates in MyScouting, which in turn is a component of the ScoutNet domain.

A bunch of stuff comes in a 9 x 12 envelope from National to the local Council: - Credit Card Credential for the Eagle Scout - Eagle Scout Certificate - Letter from the Chief Scout Executive and the President of BSA - Invitation to NESA - GTFA advertising (you too can record your service hours). Someone in the Troop goes to Council and signs for it. Most Troops I know rather quickly give the package to the new Eagle administratively... that way, if it's lost, it's out of their hands. BTW, his credentials and certificate are dated as of his EBOR date. In the Troop and Crew I served, we'd say: While the paperwork has to flow to and from Texas, you are, as of now, an Eagle. When you get your packet, you'll be able to wear the Eagle Patch.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Hal, COOL. Good Link Ms Summer, here's an Eagle App for your son to download.

ESPN RADIO NEWSFLASH: Cutler went to DA BEARS! http://www.bradenton.com/breakingsports/story/1340903.html

Fill out the application. Sadly, it's a dead link at the National website at the moment. Hopefully, someone here has a good link to a copy of it, or has a copy they can PM with you for email addresses and such (no, don't give it out online). Work with the Eagle Advisor on his references and his goals and ambitions and everything else. He needs that stuff when he enters the Troop Committee Room. Your son should call that guy tonight. He needs to show the committee he's a mature, responsible young man ready for Eagle.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Has your son completed his Eagle Scout Application yet? Has he listed this counselor as one of his references? Does your Council have the youth hand over a blank form so the reference can fill it out? If yes to all these, there is no need for the counselor to be there. His reference will stand for itself. So ... a question for you, Ms Summer: Where exactly is your son in doing: - His Eagle Scout application? (As I write this, the link to the online app at NESA is DEAD...grr) - Collecting his references? - In other words, having all his work together to go to the EBOR?

Thanks click Just as a note: If at any point in the appeal process, the rank is awarded, the process is instantly complete. Units have no right of appeal. Those words are also in ACP&P. Department of Rhetorical Questions: All this could have been solved with some quiet "in the field" SM conferences about the incident and a "Gee, I'm sorry Mr Brown." Gotta wonder why the SM has let it fester...????

Withdrawn.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

An Eagle app takes two stops at Council: The first is before the EBOR. The SM has signed it, the Comittee Chair has signed it, and it's cleared for EBOR by the Professional designated the Advancement Adviser as well as the Registrar. IF the SM/Committee refuse to sign off, THEN that is an appealable event. Contact the District Advancement Chair. The second is after the EBOR. The Committee Chair signs off, and the SCOUT EXECUTIVE signs off that all is in accordance with procedure. Then the app goes to National for final screening, processing and issuance of the Eagle credentials. IF the EBOR refuses to sign off, THEN that is an appealable event. Again, contact the District Advancement Chair. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Again, will someone chek me on this against ACP&P?: Even if the SM refuses and the Committee refuses to in due course give an EBOR, the Scout can insist on one, and the Committee must grant. IIRC what few cases I've heard of that go that path, the unit level EBOR usually votes to deny the Eagle. Again, that triggers an appeal process. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I hate to say this, but there is at least one good thing moving here: There should be no surprises at an EBOR. You, and your son, know for certain that he is pushing this task against negative recommendations. Use this for a learning opportunity with him, that sometimes, as Don Schollander once said "The Triumph is worth the Struggle."

Again, I am 1100 miles west of my copy of Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures. Would another regular on the board check me, please? I believe ACP&P, when the SM refuses his signoff on the Eagle app, allows the Committee Chair to sign off for him, in the case of a unit appeal. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Certainly, when a formal appeal is started, the DAC has the resources to find folks to cover both the Conference and the BOR. When you start the formal process, I'd tell the DAC quietly that your son is not quite an "aging out" crisis case, but the clock is on the short cycle.

My take: IIRC most teachers are mandatory reporters in their own right, in quite a few States. Let him operate under his school districts' policy.

OK, Ms Summer, we're on track. I think your sons apology to Mr SM is probably in the box of being a gentleman. We're at the point of what's done is done there. I take back some of my last post. Do email Mr SM. Do carbon copy the committee chair. BUT, your separate email to the Committee Chair should be: Mr SM has refused my son his Eagle SM Conference and the signature on his Eagle app. I believe my son has already contacted you, and you will visit with him on this issue. As I understand Scouting policy, the conference must be done before he turns 18. I trust you will visit with him promptly, and give him a decision promptly. If your decision is NO, I trust you will give him and us the reasons so we can either work the issue, or start the formal appeals process. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ When I was a committee chair, one of my tasks was to have the back of my SM. Good units have good working relationships between the SM (the program guy) and the committee chair (the support guy). If their partnership and working relationship is good, do not be surprised if your son does not get a SM signature by the Committee in lieu of the SM on his Eagle app.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

OK, Ms Summer, son has done his share of the lifting. I think it's time for you to write the SM. Make it short and sweet: My son has asked for a Scoutmaster Conference from you. You seem unwilling to give him a conference or explain the reasons why. We have the email records. Explaining why you're unwilling to give him a Conference is not difficult. If you are unwilling to give him one, either give him and I the reasons today, or I call the Mr xxx, our District Director, and Mr Xyz, our District Commissioner tomorrow. Further, my son will call Mr Yxz, the District Advancement Chairman. Send a carbon copy to the Troop Committee Chairman. Follow up to him with: I would rather work as a reasonable parent, but if Billybob Jumpback the Scoutmaster is going to be a pedant, I will do what is in the best interests of my children. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I've not read a lot of the history. Usually in these cases there's a lot of emotion, and often rightly so. I give this caution: Scout Spirit is defined as living the Boy Scout Oath and Law in your daily life. I trust your son, being 17, is approaching adulthood in a mature and sane manner, and that he is an honorable young man.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Scouter Cleary, WRONG ANSWER. Go take the Recharter -45 days orientation offered by your District Executive and Commissioner Staff. With Scoutnet internet recharter, you do not need a new app for Scouters, ON THE BOOKS, who are changing assignments within the current unit structure. If they're moving up from Cubbing to Boy, yeah, they need an app. If they're initially enrolling during recharter, yeah, they need an app. If they're changing position, no, they do not need an app. ScoutNet will guide you about exactly whose app must be part of the recharter packet.

If I didn't know shortridge lives in DE, and I in Flyover Country, I'd swear we were in the same Council. We're a 300 series Council: Big, but not quite as big as Houston TX or Chicago. Underneath our SE, we have two guys: Director of Field Services: He supervises all the unit serving Professionals Two Field Directors report to him: Each of them manage six District teams. Now, the # of professionals working a district depends on the number of units in it. Our Council seems to have a target of one professional for every 40 units. Thus, some districts have a single DE. Some have professional teams. Mine is one of those. We have a DD, a Sr DE and a wet behind the ears DE. Confused? Good. BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE!!!! The Director of Support Services owns: - The Comptroller - The Endowment Director (an attorney), who goes after the philanthropy. - The Finance Directors (one guy year round works FOS, the other popcorn, they share the golf tournament and the sporting clays tournament). - The Program Director, Scout Reservation A, and its Ranger and Asst Ranger. - The Program Director, Scout Reservation B, and its Ranger and Ranger staff (10 guys... it IS out in the boonies). - The Registrar and her shop. Thank God Supply Corporation runs the Scout Shop.

"A Lamb Goes Uncomplaining Forth" by Paul Gerhardt, 1607-1676 A Lamb goes uncomplaining forth, The guilt of all men bearing; And laden with the sins of earth, None else the burden sharing! Goes patient on, grow weak and faint, To slaughter led without complaint, That spotless life to offer; Bears shame and stripes, and wounds and death, Anguish and mockery, and saith, "Willing all this I suffer." This Lamb is Christ, the soul's great Friend, The Lamb of God, our Savior; Him God the Father chose to send To gain for us His favor. "Go forth, My Son," the Father saith, "And free men from the fear of death, From guilt and condemnation. The wrath and stripes are hard to bear, But by Thy Passion men shall share The fruit of Thy salvation." "Yea, Father, yea, most willingly I'll bear what Thou commandest; My will conforms to Thy decree, I do what Thou demandest." O wondrous Love, what hast Thou done! The Father offers up His Son! The Son, content, descendeth! O Love, how strong Thou art to save! Thou beddest Him within the grave Whose word the mountains rendeth. From morn till eve my theme shall be Thy mercy's wondrous measure; To sacrifice myself for Thee Shall be my aim and pleasure. My stream of life shall ever be A current flowing ceaselessly, Thy constant praise outpouring. I'll treasure in my memory, O Lord, all Thou hast done for me, Thy gracious love adoring. Of death I am no more afraid, New life from Thee is flowing; Thy cross affords me cooling shade When noonday's sun is glowing. When by my grief I am opprest, On Thee my weary soul shall rest Serenely as on pillows. Thou art my Anchor when by woe My bark is driven to and fro On trouble's surging billows. And when Thy glory I shall see And taste Thy kingdom's pleasure, Thy blood my royal robe shall be, My joy beyond all measure. When I appear before Thy throne, Thy righteousness shall be my crown,- With these I need not hide me. And there, in garments richly wrought As Thine own bride, I shall be brought To stand in joy beside Thee. The Lutheran Hymnal Hymn #142 Text: Is. 53: 7 Author: Paul Gerhardt, 1648, cento Translated by: composite Titled: Ein Laemmlein geht Tune: An Wasserfluessen Babylon 1st Published in: "Deutsch Kirchenamt" Town: Strassburg, 1525

From my experience, the very best Troops don't have to RECRUIT Webelos. They've had a constant presence through Den Chiefs at least since Bear year, and with a little luck, all the way up from Tiger Cubs. H Roe Bartle, for many years the Scout Executive for the Kansas City Area Council, and later Mayor of Kansas City, put it so well: If you give them great program, they will come.

If they've decided the thing which happen in Troops and Crews are for them, they are going to stick around. If they decide they're done, holding Eagle to 18 ain't gonna help. As a policy, it's a crock of smelly old %%%%, and it stinks. I'D RATHER SEE A PARENT DO WINGS FOR WINGS than this.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Thanks to you, shortridge, for explaining CC. Infoscouter is right. A District Director is a unit-serving Professional, with some experience, who supervises other professionals (my DD has a Sr DE and a DE on his team, but the team has 120 total units to attend to). I like your sons' letter, Ms Summer. I agree with the others, it's time to find a different unit for #2 son. Life may get really difficult for him. Finally, I do recommend you and your husband join us volunteers in Boy Scouting. We do have a lot of fun together, and we get to raise up great young men

Wow. Let's take a deep breath here, Ms Summer. There's some time, let's use it wisely. 1) Have your son do exactly what Beavah says. Apply to the SM for his SM conference. Verbally, if necessary in writing. Build the audit trail. 2) IF the Scoutmaster refuses to give him the SM Conference, we've hit the first trigger for an appeal of advancement denied. Have your son ask the Scoutmaster to state the reasons, and then deliver them in writing. Since I'm 1100 miles west of my copy of Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures, I'm not 100% sure, but I believe when the SM denies a conference, he must state his reasons. 3) Next step is for Scout to inform the CC of Eagle SM Conference denied, and ask the Committee to revisit that situation. If they do, and someone else at unit level gives the conference, and we move to the EBOR, problem solved. IF THEY DO NOT REVISIT, then your son asks them for their reasons, in writing. 4) Now you're ready: Contact these people, in order: - District Executive (DE) : Obtain the phone number of the DISTRICT ADVANCEMENT CHAIRMAN (DAC). - Have your son call the DAC. Ask to visit with him/her at his earliest convenience. State very clearly he has been denied an Eagle Scoutmaster Conference. Have him state you will be at the meeting, but let him do the talking. - At the visit, bring: His advancement record to this date, his Eagle Leadership Service Project workbook, and his notes (or correspondence from the SM/CC on reasons for denial), and his Eagle application completed save SM/Committee signatures. Make sure his references are ready. 5) Have your son make sure his uniform looks great. 6) At the meeting, let your son do the talking, up to the very end. Most DACs I know will understand an appeal is starting. They'll very clearly say that. If yours does not, then at the end, the words you or Dad say are: On behalf of our son, we appeal his Eagle denied. Finally, allow a moment of bluntness: Be prepared for bad feelings from the Troop, and perhaps to lose some adult friendships. An Eagle appeal is most often very divisive.

The best three practices I've seen along the trail so far: - Troop deploys good young men as DEN CHIEFS. In fact, one troop I know relieves these young men from quite a few Troop DUTIES, whilst letting them participate in the FUN. Den Chiefs, in addition to showing what Boy Scouts could do, also listened for needs of the Pack, and looked for where the Pack could help the Troop (Scouting for Food comes to mind). - Troop deploys an ASM to be a mentor and observer of Den Chiefs, and to coordinate program support between units. This has to be a 2-way street, though. Troops cannot give program without getting some support back, imo. - Troop provides resources to support various Web 1/Web 2 activities. Readyman? Well, the Owl Patrol is working on Emergency Prepardness. Owls, as part of their learning and growth, provide help to the Web 1 Den.

If Mr Cubmaster balks at moving the kids along, I'd have your COR have a friendly cup of coffee with their COR and ask this simple question: "Why won't you AOL these kids and get them to the age-appropriate program before we lose them from Scouting for lack of interest?" I'd also have your UC talk to their UC, and have the UC have a friendly cup of coffee with the CM.

That FB national page is a great place to tweak the National IT weenies about things that aren't working right on the National website...