anarchist

Hot DOGS! now maybe the next BSA Uniform will be Woodland Camo for the east coast and digital desert for the southwest...and how bout mocha for the northwest? heck, the red jac blends in well in Vermont this time of year! anarchist

why not a bolo?...get the slide...braid any length you need... anarchist

good gosh guys, what the man said is he has "thunder thighs" and wears-out the crotch/inside of the legs on his expensive "class A's"...and would rather have some less expensive pants to throw away...next time...(been there and done that ScoutingEMT)...years of leg exercises particular to fencing (swords not chain link) gave me a weird set of thighs and lots of "friction"... try an honest-by-gosh army surplus store...BDUs in olive green make cheaper, practical, and easier to throw away alternative to trashing your "BSA-wear"...forget the uniform police... anarchist

msnowman, Talking a deep breath and a pause...(sounds better than "shut up", doesn't it?), may be a good idea. First, program-wise in many units, campouts have themes or purposes...Depending on the activity, the up coming Campout you mentioned might not necessarily be just to "knock off the advancement requirements of each scout"...For instance our next two campouts center around Service Projects (sorta weekend work details) for two different camps...and our own "inhouse" camporee training (we are running the District camporee this winter) and while there may a few momments here and there for some easier advancement activities (cooking, meal planning etc.), a map and compass hike would be a non starter for time constraints alone... Your nephew has been a scout for seven months...And you need to understand that he appears to be very close to being "on track" for the BSA "goal" of (GAG!)"First Class - First Year"...and if he went to summercamp this past summer he most likely has some first class requirements completed as well (Swimming?) Next, your Nephew (not you) needs to establish for himself (and you?)the troop's (SM's?) policy on "requirement sign-offs"...It can vary troop to troop. (Example; for new Scouts our troop has gone to a limited list of approved "signers" and it does not include PL's. This was started to insure a "truer" feeling for accomplishment and skill "mastery"...For new Scouts the SPL, the ASPL, Troop Guides and Troop instructors, ASMs and the SM are approved to sign off on Tenderfoot and Second Class requirements. Star and Life scouts in addition to the above noted personnel can sign off with The SPLs approval for First Class and Star requirements. Life requirements must be signed by the SPL, ASPL or the ASMs or SM...I might add here that this "policy" was a PLC determination (reaction?)after a rash of "problems" presented themselves with scouts who just couldn't "remember" basic skills but asked for SM conferences.) Scouting Skills can be taught by any scout with the time and the temperment...your nephew should ask his PL or SPL to suggest a scout (mentor/guide)to help him with fire building ...then your Nephew can approach the SM or an ASM or the SPL (as necessary) to demonstrate proficiency for the "sign off". I know this might bring down the boo birds on my head...but keep in mind there is a good bit of self education in scouting...if you look through the Scout Handbook...it is a self taught lesson plan, (page after page), and your Nephew can do a lot of learning before asking for or recieving the first "taught" class..And not to be "smart" ...BSA is not Baby Sitters of America, a large portion of this "game" is learning self reliance. All of this said, "Nephew" needs to be gently self-assertive and let his patrol members know he values their scouting skills and wants to be just as skilled... (if they will only help him)... And I have had this discussion with many new parents recently...Boys are not the most sensitive instructors in the world...They also expect more from each other that spoon feeding...The Scout moto "Be prepared" has real meaning to young, literal minded scouts, so be sure your nephew has read his Handbook several times...'cause if he does not "know" some of the "book learning" (theory) when he asks for 'instruction'... he may be disappointed in the results. Now for you...does the troop have a "parent" orientation package? (or series of parents classes?) (I am assuming here you are acting "in loco parentis" :as a parent) Do they have some way of telling you folks how their troop does things, what is expected of parents, what is expected of the scouts and the troop? You might check and see what they do to "educate" new parents...(We have two orientation meetings, camping classes and Next week I am teaching winter back packing 101 to new parents...it helps). If they have "nothing" in the way of handouts/information or parents meetings it would be prudent to invite yourself to the coffee pot and a meeting with the C.C. and the SM ; ask all the questions you can before the coffee runs out...Make contact with the Advancement coordinator (chair?) to see what he does to track and encourage the scouts advancement progress(In some small troops this is the SM). Just keep in mind that "adult" expectations are based on a semi well run "world" or system...a Boy Led troop borders on a bad lesson in Chaos theory..."Progress" is usually much slower than parents are used to because the boys are all learning the ropes (and their jobs) while trying to make the program "run"...like sausage making, it is not something the "weak stomached" (is that a word?)should watch... So, you get the "scoop" from the Adult Leaders and your nephew should do the same from the boys...then compare notes and set a course...try not to be too judgemental towards 13-15 year old boys star scouts)they make their share of "faux pas". Just keep encouraging your Nephew...he has lots of time; let him enjoy scouting and find his own way..."monitor" the game but only step in when (if) all else seems to fail. After a bit you may be surprised...it usually works out. Y.I.S. Anarchist

welcome home! training, training. training! ASAP! Outdoor Leader training, fundamentals... the works...If you have time, heck, try the WLOT training...I loved it! Get some resource manuals...BSA field book, old merit badge books, take a "field trip" to the best Scout Shop in your region (not necessarily council...hit the best and take your check book...lots to see and buy(?) Internet, Local library, 100 ft of hemp rope, ten staves, 100 ft of nylon rope and an open mind...as a teacher I once had said..."You don't have to know it all...you just have to learn it before you have to teach it to the kids!" great fun and excitement! Anarchist

siberfish, Wow! First, two step plan (make that three steps) 1. Don't buy any more stuff...thats nutz...Troop does not need one penny to start beyond a charter fee and membership fees (paid by scouts) equipment should come after you raise money not before...(econ 101)(and remember more trouble, both accounting and politics wise comes from the "who and whys" of reimbursing than expensing directly from the troop account!) 2. EDUCATE! EDUCATE! EDUCATE! You need to find the boo birds (and we baptists Have our fair share) and sit them down to show them what the "good works" you want to do (scouting) are going to cost and just how you are planning to raise that cash...and "gosh, you would love to hear their ideas"...Let them "see" what scouting, as part of their youth ministry/outreach, will mean to the young men as well as the commuity and the church. Let them know that you plan on supporting the church...We always try to help our COs... 3. Look for alternative sites...Across the street? next door? Heck, near the Game site!?! And LOOK at alternatives to outdoor sales...(WE even use our church fellowship "hall" to host pasta dinners as a fund raiser...) Best way to overcome resistance is to enlist them in the plan. Have the supporting members on the Deacons Council to work with you on solving this. After all they approved your program and they should help smooth the waters...good luck. (AND STOP SPENDING YOUR OWN MONEY!) anarchist

Lisabob, last post you mentioned "end of the night"...just how long are these 'suckers' you call boring? We just had a CoH (MOnday night)... only one adult on stage...(SM)... MC was a "scared" young Scout working on the communications merit badge (DID A GREAT JOB), the SPL and SM gave out the awards...SM called the names, SPL gave the packages and then both shook scouts hand. We handed out 12-15 rank advancements (one at a time-for family pictures)and 161 merit badges (many from summer camp), again one scout at a time. Had an opening, closing, Scout Masters minute andour CC gave a set of special "thank you's" (awards)for outgoing SM, CC and Troop Secretary as well as a 'roll call-thank you" for the parents who supported our activities this quarter...started at 7 finished at 8:20 PM ! boys are up and down, up and down so they have little time to get bored...if yours are longer than an hour or so something needs to be improved...unless you have a HUGH troop. One adult after another??? This (CoH) should be about and (as far as I am concerned) by the boys...not another place for adults to BS...they can do that at the coffee pot. But Heck, ask to sit in at a PLC and ask in advance for a few minutes to let them know what you are seeing...and do the same at a committee meeting or two... Anarchist

committeechair, Several things here, first I wonder if there is a "split" in the troop between the "olders and the youngers". You note the 15 yr olds "have become less active"...just wondering here, but there might be some "ill will" surfacing. Several years ago I watched the "youngers" in our troop "jamb" an "older" who had "rubbed them the wrong way"... but he felt he "deserved" to be SPL...Ahh, the wonders of democracy in action! And your comment on seeing "them through Eagle" is worrisome...it is "their" Eagle to earn...not yours to sheperd them through...If they require you to keep them in program I would be worried that something is definitely amiss and not with the 13 yr olds. Sometimes the older guys get the "we're cool - scoutings not" blues and drift in and out, and sometimes the younger boys resent it..not right...not scout like (?), but bears looking at! Perhaps, here, the older scout should also consider having a second day to give more chances for assistance?...I have always disliked single day Eagle projects. Two separate work days makes it harder to "dodge" and gives opportunity for more planning, scheduling and activities. Good news, one of the best projects I have seen in recent years, had three work days and only about half of the 55 boys in our troop worked (given three days to sign up!). But that young man scheduled family, church members, school friends and even the local volunteer fire station to help! AWESOME job! So your Eagle needs to look to other resources. He also needs to approach more Scouts one on one (its harder to say no)! And then Email each Troop parent, letting them know of his plans and his needs...some times us "oldests" just load up the "shanghi-ed" "youngers" (labor) and show up anyway! Institutionally, the committee and the SM/ASM corp (program) need to sit down over a pot of coffee and work on instilling the idea of service in these boys...to community, to friends, and family, to other scouts, and even strangers. From time to time I have been known to go on an email "rant" to "encourage" boys and families to participate... I let it be known that I am asked to sit on most of the Boards of Review, and between my "hard nose" and the Scout Masters fear that I will stop feeding him good food and great coffee...advancement is going to be very hard for boys who do not show scout spirit and become real...friendly, loyal, helpful, kind, obedient and do it cheerfully...real fast! It generally works...most of the time...but sometimes folks just have other plans...and a one day time frame just doesn't work for them...Good luck, but it sounds like some hard work needs to be done with both the "youngers" and "olders". anarchist

Lisabob, first we are talking Boy Scouts here right? not to rain down on you but... Sorry, the CoH is not a pack meeting, it isn't even a "real" troop meeting...it is an award ceremony! Hopefully put together by the boys to "honor their own"; the boys and the hard work they have done...As said by others... some CoHs are better than others...(but I wonder at your sons Eagle CoH or college graduation ...do you want someone singing the "muffin man" song?) Most of the older scouts are just finding their way in planning "serious" awards ceremoies and if they plan and execute the CoH... most of them are hating being up in front doing that "public speaking stuff"...most of the levity in our CoHs come from the adults adding a little 'spice' when the time seems right... Through the POC, you might make suggestions,but I wonder if the first "skit" offered up will result in the older guys running for the doors? More pagentry would be a nice touch if it is lacking,but these boys in most cases are trying to "grow-up" a bit not return to Cubbie land. my two cents Anarchist(This message has been edited by anarchist)

Heck, I am getting so frustrated with Summer Camp merit badge sessions, I am ready to say "no Eagle M.B.s at camp"... too many sessions are jokes, pure and simple. The boys "do the time" and get the card...without the real work, knowledge or any effort... venting Anarchist

meamemg, second Gettyburg! outstanding camp if you can get into the youth camp ground right on the battlefield it is AWESOME! FBI is great the Campsites at Quantico MCB -Lunga (the lake)recreational area are very nice. (Judy-who does the resevations is very helpful...more paperwork now though). The Marines are opening a new museum in 2006...do not know dates but you might check with them. Anteitam Battlefield is a great location. you could hike the C&O canal, see Harpers Ferry ( of John Brown and Civil War fame) and maybe see the sights from Jeffersons Rock (where the Potomac and Shenandoah rivers join at Harpers Ferry)- a view Thomas Jefferson said, "was worth a trip across the Atlantic", on the same trip! anarchist

hi folks, not to jump in on the side of an obvisously out of control "C-C",a screaming nut job, a clear case of nepollionic syndrome, who has delusions of grandure, physchotic, skitzoid, post-nasal drip, hives, PMS, and possible Republican tendancies...god, how we love to trash others on just the "say" of one poster... yes, she is out of line on the patrol vs troop cooking...but thats a normal "Mom thing" - with getting it "done and over" (calm down ladies... just a 50 year observation of Moms...) But I am not sure about the issue of first Aid "work", unless I am not reading right, she is objecting to spending troop meeting time on Merit Badge work...not first aid training...Perhaps part of what has been "working so well" from Kellyr's perpective... is the slow development of a merit badge "mill" (which some scouts like...advancement is easier) or maybe she just sees that possiblility developing...its hard to say. But Kellyr does not say she nixed a "first aid review" or even a "class" but "merit badge work some of the boys put into the planner" and I don't know that she is not "right on" in this area.... and Venividi the "tone" of the question you pose for Kellyr to ask might just be looked at as disrespectful...by a new "C-C"; perhaps a note of caution as to how one delivers a "challenge" would be a better tact than just an ..."ask her why she does not think...." heck, it could get a guy on the bad side of this demented "psycho" and she may be armed with a camp spoon or a cocoa pot! anarchist

Hey Trevorum! Ya want logic or emotion? Having both types, I can say that the internal frames are generally lighter "per cubic inch" of volumn than the external frames. (but you gotta be careful some "internals" use such heavy cloth it negates that asset) If your pack starts out lighter...you either end up lighter (with the same gear) or you can pack a little more gear...Do a lot of research, look at and 'feel' many many packs- try them on loaded! Newer internal frame packs are really incredible, many have great air flow systems, numerous daisy chain /lashing points for "hanging" extra "stuff" and if you have the dollars you can cut some serious weight out of the pack itself...and that means a "better" trek! emotion- I love my old external...I use it almost exclusively now...(stopped doing long distance treks after a bout of Lung "C" slowed me down- so its not a big deal)...but I just know that if I had to...I could lash a volkswagon to that darn frame and haul it out...go figure... Packsaddle- On your old frames...Kelty and others (if you know the 'make' of the pack... will remake pack sacks, if they still have the older patterns... I use an old cheaper frame at the beach...chairs, tarp and a small cooler get "bungied" to it, allowing "Free" hands to carry important stuff - fishing gear! And last you can use old frames to show how we used to do it "in the good old days"...after we "discontinued" using the "bedroll-pack and shoulder haversack" (and gaiters or spats). We used old G.I. pack frames, -taking a heavy duty G.I. rubber and canvas poncho (try small canvas tarp?); we placed our clothes and gear in the middle, folded the corners/edges over (making a "bag") and lashed the "bag" (mouth of bag against or "down on the frame") with a diamond hitch using old hemp rope...and saddled up! What a change! Heck, next someone will tell me we don't have to wear leather work boots! anarchist(This message has been edited by anarchist)(This message has been edited by anarchist)

Hi Y'all, I have never really liked the short sleeve shirts...the long sleeve shirt is more practical and more thrifty. I guess part of it is we do so darn much INDOORS rather than OUT-DOORS and it's a comfort thing...for most folks. From my experience the long sleeves can be neatly rolled up for warm weather wear and when out-side in the sun, if sunburn is "coming on" (pinkish arms), the sleeves are rolled down...instant sunblock and absolutely no more sun damage to the arms! (something you can't do with short sleeves.) That said...I have a red, mock turtle neck, long sleeve shirt/thin sweater that looks great under my short sleeve shirt, I also have an olive drap "insulated" long sleeve under shirt that looks pretty sharp with the s-s-shirt, in fact a white Long sleeve thermal shirt looks darn nice!...what was the question? oh yes, until you see the uniform police don't worry about it...if you are in a more formal setting, say a flag ceremony you might just pass the word to roll up the undershirt sleeves or "put it on afterwards" if you really think it matters... anarchist

scoutmom5, First I do not enter this discussion lightly...a longer post.... Using my digets, I count 5 months from June to October 2005...Sorry to say, "turning around" a troop with long standing habits (good or bad) is going to take much longer and much more work... And I would take some of the advice to slow down and be (umm)diplomatic to heart. Remember no matter how well meaning a great Scout Master is he does not run the program (at best he 'offers the BSA program and directs it implementation). The C.O. through the CC and committee run the program. If you continue to make big waves without lots of support the results could be tragic both for your family and the troop. Very few organizations 'like' change. Very few organizations like new ideas...Most of us are very comfortable -stuck in "the way it used to be". When you introduce change and new ideas it is nearly always better to do it slowly and incrementally. It is also a universal truth that if you can convince someone that the "new idea" was theirs to begin with it goes down much easier...(thusly, we nudge and suggest to our scouts not tell...). Regardless of your and your husband's good intentions, it will do little good to tear the troop apart...and with "shouting matches"... thats where you could be heading. I would like to suggest that in all future actions all the "i's and T's" be dotted and crossed and negotiated as if you were walking in a mine field. You note that your Husband (he sounds like our "RGG"-{really good guy}) sat down and planned a calendar and the boys were "thoughtful and thrilled"...it also sounds as if they we at least partly clueless and unprepared (ergo the conflicts). Planning a campout or planning the year...it matters not, there is absolutely no good reason to plan "in the dark". In our planning sessions we have the troop template, the council, the local district and the multiple school calendars all in front of us to avoid needless conflict...We have our planning meetings starting in July and finishing in August just so we can have everyones schedule...do conflict arise?...of course, sometime it just can't be helped but if you make every effort to avoid such conflicts they "go down" better. Yes, the old guys might be neanderthals and wrong, wrong, wrong...but they can make things much more difficult if they are 'vexed'. It is far better to bring them into the fold gently or at least try not to ruffle their feathers needlessly. IN the example of the "camporall", if I understand the concept, An encampment dedicated to the retention and enlistment of Webelos for Boy Scouting, is important to the entire scouting program...That said, you noted the boys "unanimously" vote to not to participate. Did all the troop or just the PLC vote? Did the PLC take the agenda to their patrols in advance? In other words was it the vote of the troop or sorta "what some of the older boys thought the troop should do?" In this area, there are many questions not the least of which was did they really understand what the event represented? I bring this up because left to the device of the Older scouts (with "them old hands" particularly- they have done it all and "it is no longer fun- more like work")the "troop" would probably always vote to "bail-out on this one", after all who wants to be saddled with little "Kids" for a weekend?!...And maybe they are (even?) right! But as we all know; in polite society there are "obligations"...This kind of event is one! (If it sounds like I have been "there, and done that"...I have , heck, I even bought the "Tee shirt") In our troop, WE "couch" this kind of obligation in terms such as "Scout Spirit" and service to the troop...and it is still like swallowing bad medicine to many older scouts. "Boy led" (note: not "boy run")does not mean that adults do not "nudge" them in certain directions...many boys would be happy to bring along their video games and vegitate at the campouts...sometimes they need to be "pushed" or "challenged" to hike in the winter...if they freeze, the training and leadership failed not the activity (winter hikes are great...) Many of our boys hate our District Klondike derbies 'cause they are cold and sometimes wet...BUT Many boys love the competition ...and if they don't try different events...none of them learn anything of the event nor of themselves. Short story: I had a pizza recently with one of our recent eagles 18 yrs old(a newly minted troop ASM) in talking about our troop activities I noted that I didn't recall he had ever travelled "down the river" with me on our annual 100+ mile canoe trip...I got a sheepish grin and he said "no one had ever pushed him" to do the trip and "water" was not his favorite place to play...after talking about several of our trips ...he then said he had probably missed something special and wished his folks or the troop leaders had 'pushed' him more to give it a try... Regardless of your methods and intentions keep in mind that in some cases the old guard is (maybe?) right...for reasons they are not even sure of...After all, it is a fifty boy troop-something did or "used to" work -right?!...(50 scouts = not bad for size -in many areas)...it pays to be on reasonable terms with them -as sometimes they can be helpful. WE found that by blending in and slowing filling the ranks with trained adults we made a smooth (mostly) transition but it was not overnight. WE tryed to work "beside" the old guard not "in front of" them. Consultation rather than confrontation... It took three years of constant work and another three years to make the changes somewhat institutional...(heck we are still working hard nine years later). But we avoided blowing the troop up and hurting the boys...in the process. WE literally took the troop over one patrol at a time. I also note here, that some troop events "may not be or are not" for every boy. Each unit should offer a program with activities that challenge and engage but sometimes- not all boys at all events. There are necessarily events that young boys can not do; or older boys don't want to do...this is where the program must be made to shine to keep the whole troop moving forward not forgetting any of the boys.... Your Zen lesson for the day: Bolos or neckerchiefs ...regardless of the topic the good work is worth it or it is not...it is easy to do or it is not...mostly it is up to you.... to roll up your sleeves and put you shoulder to the yoke or not. We found it was worth it. anarchist

My oh my, how much work are you willing to undertake? Laid back "adult approaches" usually mean troop chaos of varying degree, with weak planning and program. As well as a lack of program direction. Looks like you got a real seat of the pants operation there. Any chance to interview another troop? Oh Well, the long term approach is to register as a Committee Member and start to 'work' the program...get the committee training and start by offering suggestions and askng mild, general questions at the committee meetings...you know, "gosh, in training they said...., or "I wonder if we had a year long plan (approved by the committee)in August and "meshed" with the District calendar... we propably would not have S.F.F. conflicts again"....and "the boys could have a long range training plan to work from".... sitting with the parents can even be used to slowly train and indoctrinate them...they can become your "5th column". If you help 'work' with your nephew's patrol (a NSP?), you can educate the boys in the patrol to rise above the seat of the pants type planning and do more properly planned patrol activities as they progress... but you really need more concerned parents to help in your re-education program...it is not painless...or easy. best of luck Anarchist

msnowman, depends, on many things...First are you a registered scouter? (not that it really matters but...it does give you more "wiggle-room")at you first suggestion expect to see the CC or secretary "go for and application". Then, there is a chain of command...nothing wrong with dropping hints to the SPL...remember the Adult leaders on the program side have already been working with the boys for months now...but in many troops by October the activity calendar is set and being actively worked towards...so don't be surprised with a "maybe next year" type answer...For an addition to a planned activity with the right finness it could be great...talk it over with the troop leaders first. Within a patrol, for a patrol activity, the PL can be offered an idea or two...perhaps in this context, the hint should go to the ASM mentoring that patrol or the SPL, for him to suggest "down stream" or give the ball to your Nephew and let him run with it... (I like that best of all)...Talk with the CC and SM whenever you have an idea...but expect (as in our troop) that suggestions are not free...the cost is... you get asked to help implement them! boy led does not mean adults do nothing...but we do what we do without seeming to do it...sorta Zen like... rock on anarchist(This message has been edited by anarchist)

SMBURNS, SM-scoutmaster? not meaning to bust your chops or anything...but you shouldn't be planning the CoH..."boy led" remember? The boys should be given the job...they most likely have seen them before (unless you are a brand new troop?) You might be asked to hand out the awards but they should M.C. the event (communications merit badge anyone?), and run the show, including an opening, announcements (adults can ask for time here), awards, SM minute, a moment for your chaplain/ chaplain aide and a closing (and refreshments and cleanup-if same are planned) Take a deep breath and stand back cup of coffee in hand. anarchist

Tenting is a good thing...but like fishing rods -depending on what you want to do...is the real question. Car camping??? Back Packing??? Lots of room? two doors? lots of air flow? Have trouble bending? need height? $$$$$$$$???? food for thought.... first- is it for scouting with your troop? if so do they have tents? you might want to look at what they have ...(to keep it uniform?) -size-two man -isn't; nor is a four man. two man tents are big enough for you and your stuff and a second person better be really on good terms with you...on a long river trip, I actually enjoy having a four-man all to myself...particularly as I start 'stiffening' up after a few days of real work. -two doors can be helpful in some tent designs to avoid one person having to climb over the other at three in the morning... -floors should not have seams at the ground if possible...they should "bath-tub up" the side walls to help keep you dry...seam and sewing hole= leaks eventually. -try to avoid 'wierd' pole conectors and little "pieces"...lost or broken they could mean your tent doesn't go up...visualize how you could "field replace" any pole or connector in the woods!?! Look around! There are lots of toys! REI, Dicks, LLB, Cabellas Bass Pro- all the serious sports shops, local out-fitters, campmor, HTO, let your fingers do the walking... through the internet also... You might even check with the troop. Are they gonna make an order anytime soon?...couple of years ago, we ordered 15 tents and several parents were given the same deal by the supplier when we made the order...sweet! For a good, solid tent value, I really like the Eureka XTs (2 and 4 man)...there are nicer (more $$$) tents but it is pretty hard to find a better value...can be backpacked if you only have one...course like fishing rods they tend to accumulate... good luck! anarchist

Hottik, Rank is earned the date of the BoR...what is served making a scout wait??? (If your SM missed pay day...would he happily sit on his/her hands 'til the next one?? Not!...good grief! Even the Eagle awards date is not when it comes back from "the great beyond" ...but the Date of the EBoR! The night we do BoRs, at closing the SM announces we have a new__x___ and new___x___ or three new___x's___ and would everyone congratulate these scouts on their accomplishments...We hold the card and the parents pen to give the boy "something" at the CoH...so they get recognized twice! Your committee needs to have a look at the situation...Its just plain wrong to make them wait and to slow up their advancement program

ditto the 18 = adult in scouting! ('course we all know an 18 yr old is WAY SMARTER than an adult... right?) we have these guys become ASMs and participate as such...troop picks up the one dollar fee to council for a 'position transfer' application...pretty painless. Most of our "death-bed eagles" want to take at least one final 100 mile canoe trip before heading off to college, service or the "real world"...some even drop in to help when college allows...by helping "as an ASM" it is possible to keep them engaged with the program. anarchist

SW, I take it the the flame at the tip of a lit candle will not burn me 'cause it ain't fire? just a candle right? anarchist

MajBob, (I am not a legal beagle nor do I play one on the Boob-tube) keep in mind if you have 'i' dotters and 'T' crossers in your committee, there ARE copyright issues...if you use scouting signatures or logos... TO whit: "The trademarks and logos of the Boy Scouts of America are protected by a 1916 act of Congress (36 U.S.C. 27) as well as by a variety of registrations with the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office. The 1916 act specifically gives the Boy Scouts of America the sole and exclusive right to use its "emblems, badges, descriptive and designating marks" in connection with carrying out its purposes. These and all art or logotypes obtained from the National Council, Boy Scouts of America, are the exclusive property of the Boy Scouts of America and must be used and displayed as shown in this manual or official artwork unless otherwise stated in writing from an authorized officer of the Boy Scouts of America. In other words, they must appear with any ownership symbols exactly as received, and no additional symbols are to appear in connection with them. If the manual or official artwork indicates that the artwork or logotype is the subject of a U.S. Trademark Registration Certificate, then it should appear with the symbol. It is customary that the symbol is used once in the headline of an advertisement (if it is used in an ad or a poster) and then the first time it is used in the text. The symbol is placed on the upper right-hand shoulder of the last letter of the trademark (if it is a word mark) or on the upper right-hand shoulder of the symbol (if it is a design mark) and in a size that is approximately one-third the size of the largest letter or element in the trademark (but never so small that it can't be read). It is also desirable, but not as critical, to place a statement at the bottom of any advertisement or poster that clearly identifies trademarks or design marks of the Boy Scouts of America. This might read as follows: "BE PREPARED is a registered trademark of the Boy Scouts of America." If you have any questions concerning correct trademark usage, please contact the Custom Communication Division at the national office for further guidance." straight from the national home pages... check with your council before you finalize your 'deal' getting the art work approved took us about four weeks.......two trips through the BSA "The trademarks and logos of the Boy Scouts of America are protected by a 1916 act of Congress (36 U.S.C. 27) as well as by a variety of registrations with the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office. The 1916 act specifically gives the Boy Scouts of America the sole and exclusive right to use its "emblems, badges, descriptive and designating marks" in connection with carrying out its purposes. These and all art or logotypes obtained from the National Council, Boy Scouts of America, are the exclusive property of the Boy Scouts of America and must be used and displayed as shown in this manual or official artwork unless otherwise stated in writing from an authorized officer of the Boy Scouts of America. In other words, they must appear with any ownership symbols exactly as received, and no additional symbols are to appear in connection with them. If the manual or official artwork indicates that the artwork or logotype is the subject of a U.S. Trademark Registration Certificate, then it should appear with the symbol. It is customary that the symbol is used once in the headline of an advertisement (if it is used in an ad or a poster) and then the first time it is used in the text. The symbol is placed on the upper right-hand shoulder of the last letter of the trademark (if it is a word mark) or on the upper right-hand shoulder of the symbol (if it is a design mark) and in a size that is approximately one-third the size of the largest letter or element in the trademark (but never so small that it can't be read). It is also desirable, but not as critical, to place a statement at the bottom of any advertisement or poster that clearly identifies trademarks or design marks of the Boy Scouts of America. This might read as follows: "BE PREPARED is a registered trademark of the Boy Scouts of America." If you have any questions concerning correct trademark usage, please contact the Custom Communication Division at the national office for further guidance." Several years ago, it took us about four weeks to get through the BSA "obstacle course"...just front BSA logo with troop number and Scout law on the back...with TM's anarchist P.S. first set was bright color shirts...took several years to sell out (bought enough for about 2 per scout)..second "printing" was olive drab...guess what?... boys scarfed up the O.D.s had to do third set...(This message has been edited by anarchist)

Hey Eamonn, "No, but adult supervision is a must." Isn't that a great part of what we do? Boy is my son gonna be "ticked" when I tell him he's elected to "pack" in the "locked storage box" for our next over-night hike and he has to follow us at least 20 feet behind... and oh yes, when you strike a match to light your stove aren't you using a liquid fuel to start a fire? Do we not use stoves any longer?...... 0 0 V U Just bustin' your chops a might... again ...CNYScouter...training and supervision, maturity and a bit o' luck(?) anarchist (This message has been edited by anarchist)

Hey CNYScouter, pepsi can stoves are just homemade alcohol stoves...and are not prohibited by scouting...(and it is a big urban myth that white gas is forbidden by BSA, also) Actually kind of fun to build and a bummer to really "cook" with...twice as long to boil water as even the 'cheapest' white gas back packing stove...If I remember correctly, most designs boil a small bit (say) 1-2 cups of water in about 5 1/2 - 6 minutes and run out of fuel in about 8 or 9 minutes...but for the boys its a fun project....(let parents know junior is bringing home a pocket "torch"...just to be on the safe side.... ) small and light, but also some what fragile...on boy tossed down his backpack and nearly flattened his stove, wasn't very level for the rest of the hike...has only one temperature setting...LOW....stove has no working parts to 'break down' though... mostly for coffee, tea, instant soups, dehydrated meals and snacks rather than cooking a two quart pots of stew. or baking. If I remember, a while back some "number cruncher type" did a piece on the efficency of backpacking stoves...from a zen like approach....interesting piece...see if I can find it again. anarchist