anarchist

Karendrevo, did you get enough Ideas? If not give me some info as to the size of your trailer (even the make)...does it have exposed metal or plywood walls inside? How much gear? what kind of gear? are you using wooden kitchen/chuck boxes? What kind of lighting do you use??? propane? number of lanterns in the troop kit? tents? tarps? Do you have a bunch of Dutch ovens? We carry gear for six patrols and an adult kitchen and spare gear to furnish a seventh kitchen if needed...thats 30 tents 3 and 3 man mix), 8 rain flys,poles, 9 D.O.'s, 7 completely equipted wooden chuck boxes, a fire box (axes saws,etc.), 7 lanterns and 7 distribution trees plus some odds and ends, and usually a 10X20 tarp and pole garage-one of those Costco monsters (though we are currently using the garage to house a sail boat we are refurbishing). Next week ...(I hope)...we are adding a raised floor area to one side...maybe both well see... shout back if you need more help! Anarchist

contact BSA (in Texas) and request a camera ready copy or a email file your sign maker can tell you what works on his graphics program (if he does not have access to it already)...Many sign companies do this and then their computers cut the vinyl (single color, slick! If you are going the hand-painted route...more colors...more cost...perhaps longer life? Ours is vinyl and still looks good after five years.

Fuzzy....I wasn't off... and Fscouter, I didn't say the indians (my ancesters) gave slavery to anyone...it was part of the human condition since mankind began 'choosing up sides'. To lay institutional slavery on the founding fathers is not just poor history it is wrong and if 'wrong' is not admitted when it is proved wrong..it... is a lie... Repeating falsehoods until you believe them and hope others do to may work in conservative politics but it is still not the truth... and Vicki, thanks for the middle ground but historically indentured servitude did not actually 'evolve' into slavery it was replaced by slavery because it could not provide enough labor to keep the economics of the plantation system above water... And Historically speaking almost every culture and ethnic group has had a form of slavery at some point in its development...just a fact, Greeks, Romans, American Indians (north and south), Africans, Europeans, the Mid-East, and Asians all have strong relationships to the slavery issues. When the institution we all recognize as slavery (the forced servitude of Africans) started in the 'new world', there was no America or United States...there were English, Spanish and French settlements (and some Portuguese)or 'colonies'...components of Imperial European Powers... The founding fathers as most Americans call them, played the cards their time and culture dealt them...and to lay the revisionist history of modern cultural victimhood on their shoulders is simply intellectually dishonest... nuff said

Question#1 Troop committee meets every month, regularly scheduled for the week after Roundtable. We all donate a non scout night so there are absolutely no distrations and the SPL/SM/ASMs team can know they are not needed else where "right then".... We hear reports from The Chair, Treasurer, Program - SPL or SM or ASM as appropriate for the topics needing a hearing, Our Round-table participants, Advancement coordinator, the outdoor coordinator, Training coordinator, equipment guy, etc...These meetings are on the troop calendar and every parent is welcome... (though there is a rumor that if you attend too many you find yourself filling out the volunteer application). SM and ASM arealways welcome but non-voting and we enjoy hearing from Scouts also... We talk about progress in our fund raising , CO relations, boys advancement, leaders training opportunities, scout training oportunities, equipment needs, district info and future goals and plans updates...usually 1 hour....agenda emailed in advance to all parents and adult leaders... Its not hard and it makes sure the Program guys; Scouts and Scoutmasters alike, are getting what they need from the committee and the CO...why are so many SMs and CCs afraid of Meetings???? Train the ASPL and TRAIN THE BOYS HOLDING THE PoRs...have a troop JLT session(s) let them know what they need to do and get out of there way...let the ASPL (and SPL) do their job...BUT..."Boy led" does not mean to say ... "here guys do the job" and then let them sink or swim. The SM must help teach and lead the SPL and his 'green bars' so they can learn to lead the others...

Not to be terribly off topic here...but I wish a slight retraction from Fuzzy.... The gents who gave us "self evident" did not "give" us slavery...which was here before the first whiteman set foot in the Americas, and which has been around thoughout the history of Man ...and still exists on many contentents...Afican, Asian, European and American... but to lay its existence on the men who brought forth this nation is just a bald-face lie...and I expected better...of fuzzy anarchist

How about building an outdoor stage? nature - outside amphitheatre? at a local park, church property, or camp????? could be a heck of a project

Our SPL and PLC plan the annual troop calendar around four things... fall, winter, and spring District Camporees and Summer camp/high adventure camp... Our SPL is encouraged to take each Camporee seriously and the troop meeting schdule is usually dedicated to camporee preparation for four weeks prior to the camporee...Our scouts train to beready for the theme and troop competions...and take pride in winning as many of these things as they can...(small prizes are usually given to the troops doing well) In the last two years we have won a hand ax, a lantern, a propane stove, two D.O.s, box of lantern mantles, lots of snacks and pennants for the flag staff...and the boys take great pride in doing well at these things...even the seventeen year olds... It is important not to just show up...boys who are asked to compete without the necessary skill sets, feel like they have been fed to the wolves (and I don't mean cub scouts). They do not generally want to be 'camporee meat' next time...but if they win a couple of these things they actually begin to relish the training almost as much as as the skill competitions...and the young scouts really get a charge out of being able to say MY TROOP WON_______! Of course a badly planned Camporee can take the 'starch' out of your best planning and training...but your troop adult leaders should be able to get a good feeling at round tables as to wether or not the district camporee planners have their 'stuff' together...and if the leadership feeling is 'the next Camporee is looking like it is being slapped together'...maybe you bag it, and take the troop fishing... good scouting!

fgoodwin, sorry you new troop did not have their "NSP act" together...But this can be a good thing for the future... I am assuming you are in it for the 'long haul'... so having seen the problem first hand ...offer to help the troop make sure it doesn't happen next year... In addition to your ASM training committment, volunteer to do a little troop to pack communicating...and push the troop to have its NSP program planned and scheduled on the troop calendar by September(?)for the comming spring and your NSP program (including parents meeting) ready next year to start on time... Buy the way, if your troop schedules it right, and embraces a shakedown program- only for New Scouts, guides, SM/ASMs (NS parents) and a few Scout instructors...you can plan it two weeks before a troop camp and the new boys get a 'teaching/learning' campout and two weeks later a real troop campout...AND THEY'RE OFF! (and running) and if you (the troop, really) communicate with the Webelos IIs early...even if the crossover is the same week as your Shakedown everyone knows well in advance for work scheduling and equipment/supply 'gathering'... As I said in the earlier post... we had several webelos' and their parents in troop/NSP planning meetings two weeks before they crossed over so they would be ready to hit the ground running! glad it did turn you off... your son will love it! anarchist(This message has been edited by anarchist)

ozwmu, don't understand... only adult trained to run meeting... does not compute!!! is this an Aussie thing? must a trained leader be there or no meeting???

Fgoodwin, First I am glad your son a good time...welcome to where the real action is! Unless you have a really 'different' bunch of scouts hazing isn't all its cracked up to be... In fact most of what is/could be now called 'hazing' is usually prat-fall type humor and is aimed by older scouts at their older buds...not at younger scouts...though there are still old timers who from time to time send a youngster of to find 100 ft of shore line or over to the next camp kitchen for a bacon stretcher... What I really want to address is the "surprise" you experienced at having a camping trip "this" weekend... I am confused? If you crossed last month ...two or three weeks between meetings? We have Webelos who cross on a Thursday and the following Monday they are at our Boy Scout meeting...One Pack crossed over March 28th and we had them at our NSP shakedown campout April 1st...but we also had them coming to planning meetings while they were still Webelos IIs! Webelos leaders should start 'working' with all the different Troops their boys may 'cross' to... at the very latest two or three months before crossover... The troops should be asked for activities schedules as a matter of course when you express and interest in their troop. We actually supply our schedule to three different packs as a matter of course... for the Webelos I and II leaders to think about as they plan den activities and Troop visitations... Our Troop also gives out the schedule at our annual Webelos "service" weekend...In NOVEMBER four months before the first pack crossover is held! We invite several Packs to send their Webelos IIs to a local church camp ground where we do a Troop service project in the early morning and then set up Boy Scout "skill" stations (First-aid, first-aid carry techniques, 'stretcher' building, knots & lashing, map & compass, tent and tarp set up, fire building, etc. add a few games and lunch) and rotate the Webelos IIs through these stations while we ply the parents with coffee... Bottom line is the Pack and Webelos Leaders need to be made aware that the families (and boys) ought to given the opportunity to plan...and the Troops can not be expected to 'blanket' all Packs with info...If your Webelos II boys visit more than one troop, the families must be 'trained' to ask for the troop calendar or schedule from each troop...then the Webelos II DL also needs to be sure to 'really look' at these schedules so early planning can be done...the fewer surprises the better! good luck and get to trainning now!

Easy stuff first...outside...Troop number, BSA designation of some sort *(BSA, BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA, BOYS SCOUTS, etc.)...then perhaps the 'town' (location) and perhaps the CO?? BIG BSA EMBLEM...you can have all kinds of fun... LOCKS! 1).-LOCK FOR THE DOOR(s) check out the lock by AMERICAN THAT HAS NO HASP FOR THEIVES TO BREAK...if it fits your closure system on the door it is great! 2).-LOCK the ball lever with a pin lock...(make several keys for each lock) 3). -Lock cover for the ball coupler (fits over or actually in the area where the hitch ball nests)...IF THE HITCH DOES NOT ACCEPT A LOCK DO NOT BUY THE TRAILER OR BE PREPAIRED TO CHANGE THE HITCH SYSTEM...easy on some trailers difficult in others...but the ball blocker type locks are pretty darn effective... 4).-Lock for the anchor system...where ever you store the trailer long term (I hope not out in public)dig a good size hole fill with concrete and a couple of 'Eye' bolts back fill with dirt and chain the trailer down with a BIG CHAIN and lock...:not talkin bout no swing chain here"...BIG CHAIN and a BIG LOCK. YOU will be spending about $100-$150 to secure the thing right...but it is better than replacing all your gear and a trailer... Light is also good...we store ours next to a barn with a dusk to dawn yard light on it...(darkness is bad!) the inside is harder...what do you have to store and what size is the trailer...how many doors? door configuration? Some basics, what you use first should be easiest to unload...example our trailer is a double-rear, swinging door (not drop-ramp) model: When we hit camp, often at night, we need lights so when the two rear doors open... on the left door are mounted eight propane distribution trees (propane tanks arrive in the bed of someones pick-up)hanging in a line along the right side wall (in line at the top of the wall) are eight 2-1/2 gal plastic paint buckets with lids that hold our eight propane lanterns.(LET THERE BE LIGHT!) On the right door is a web 'net' that holds eight rolled tarps and on the floor of the trailer snugged up to some of the kitchens are the eight sets of 2x2 tarp poles {bound together as individual sets} and a large bucket with extra tarp pins, extra lines and a couple of mallets...Thusly we can have eight lighted, 'dry' camp areas set up in ten to fifteen minutes...and if it is night and raining (seems our usual activity weather) ...each tent(free standing timberlines) can then be assembled under a lighted tarp and then moved -rainfly already attached and interior DRY! Patrol kitchens and fire box (red wood box with axes, saws, ax-yard-yellow-rope, shovel, miscellaneous tools line both walls, and the "garage-tarp-set is up front under the 30 or so tents...D.O. have nests between the kitchen sets and tables for each kitchen line the kitchens 'in'...all of this is strapped down with ratchet webbing straps...attached to floor and wall rings... We are currently experimenting with designs to raise the kitchens up a foot or so on a shelf like structure and move the tarp poles out of the isle and 'under the kitchens'...so loading boys backpacks is a little easier...and also reducing the number of P.U. trucks we need... somewhere I have a tailer plan so newbies can get the 'packing' right...if the QM (or I) is/am/are not around to guide stuff 'in'...PM me and I'll see if the file is still on one of my computers...or if the QM has his copy... looking forward to other ideas...

Bald Eagle, Oldest son...very active very 'cool'...sports, girls and grins... and always liked dad telling him a story... few years back -around Star Rank scouting became a drag...didn't like the uniform...especially the neckerchief...hated 'authority figures' (gets it honestly) but most of all scouting was uncool to most of his friends... First deal was paint ball gun...kid loved the game but I place a Life Scout Rank 'in front' of his being able to Own a gun...(renting 'field guns' wasn't cool) so he dug in and 'made' Life... Along the way to Life we 'hit another bump' and I had a talk about 'a friend of mine'...You all know him; the guy (Bob or George or Chuck) whos son thought scouting was uncool... And you know my friend (Bob or George or Chuck) sat his boy down and started off...So one of your friends thinks scouting is uncool, huh? Well son, lets think on that a bit... Just what is so uncool... about climbing a rock wall and then rappelling down 40 or fifty feet? How about a teenager sliding down a 'natural mud sliding board' and inching up a thirty foot natural chimney, 130 feet below ground, wiggling through keyholes and getting up-close and personal with blind minnows and cave bats down in a cave in Southern Virgina? Whats so uncool about camping on the beach with surf rods and wild ponies for company? ...or taking class four and five rapids in an eight person river raft. ...or hiking 20 miles, carrying all you need to live for a couple of days on your back or son, how many fifteen year-olds do you know who are competent enough to captain a tandem canoe 110 miles with another scout through class II and III rapids, carrying a weeks worth of supplies and camping in the woods each night where-ever the day happens to ends... In the end, my friend, (you know hin George or Bob or Chuck)asked his son to decide ...was scouting really that 'uncool' or perhaps were some of his "friends", who couldn't appreciate the challenge of scouting just making excuses for their own distaste of adventure... Just what was so uncool? My Oldest sons Eagle Project work detail is this Saturday...Is that cool or what??? good luck YiS

Sorry to here about the loss... some tips for others out there... When possible trailers should have four locks... 1.-small pin lock to keep the ball lever from being used... 2. Ball socket lock, which fits over the coupling socket...to keep from being attached to a ball... 3. best hasp lock you can find for trailer doors ...american make a couple of nice ones, including a nifty 'round' job with no visible hasp! 4. anchor lock over the frame or axel...Where you generally park your trailer...dig good size hole fill with concrete and a long "eye" bolt...roll trailer up to this and run chain and strong lock around axel or between steel frame of trailer. We have found it best to keep trailer out of public eye, and not at the church lot, to avoid temping stupid people...some ones large lot, beside a barn, even in a garage...or behind locked gates...sad but necessary. hope things turn out better...maybe you'll get it back!

Have him check out www.NRA.org .(and while he is at it his NRA membership status)...The Range safety officer course used to be and 8 or 9 hour course and he may also need some of the basic instructor classes...But a quick call to NRA could set him on the path... they used to hold several different classes in the Altoona area but I am not sure now days where most of the classes are held. good luck!

ljnrsu, One more point...one nice trick we have found for storing our bags with out compressing them... is to find large plastic boxes (trunks really)...The bags go in with their compression sack on the bottom of the trunk and sometimes one of my wifes 'little fabric bags of smelly flower petals' to keep them from getting 'musty'. The plastic is better at keeping creepy crawlers from nesting in the sleeping bag, than if you just store it in its fabric storage (not compression) sack.

Gosh, I get to disagree with BW...just a little bit....Man! do you you know how tough its been agreeing with him all this time...(just jokin...love ya BW)... I love the practical topic of 'ground cloths'...cause the answer is; "it depends"...what is the motivation or reason you are REALLY using the ground cloth...(I know... it sounds weird) We often say "it is to keep water out of the tent"...translation..."keep our gear and Sleeping Bag dry!"...some times we say "to protect the bottom of the tent from puntures"...but this 9the later answer)really depends on what you are using as a gound cloth...plastic sheeting really does not 'resist' punctures better than the tent floor material (woven nylon or poly) On an expedition or trek where the "dampening" of my bedding will mean days of discomfort. There is just no alternative, the ground cloth (4-6mil plastic sheeting - also called builders cloth)goes inside the tent! The "ground cloth" is cut 'fuller' than the tent bottom so that it actually 'lays' up all four sides of the tent and above any floor level zippers. The corners of the plastic sheeting are 'folded' together and 'Duct Taped' as an aid to maintaining a bath-tub effect... Then as long as my overhead seams are sealed none of my gear gets wet. Also, I will point out, with this arrangement water that does(may?)get between the plastic and the nylon or 'poly' floor is wicked(forced) downward, not upward towards your bag and clothes..(any water trapped between the two materials is going through the woven fabric not the plastic unless the plastic is punctured...) If you are protecting the floor and cleanliness of the floor fabric... an argument can be made for ground cloths outside the tents...but I am willing to bet that if you are protecting your comfort and sleeping quality (health?) the Plastic inside makes better sense...and any little tears...DUCT TAPE! Give it a try...you may also find that if you are set up on a surface other than packed dirt or mud, any water that goes under your tent 'percs' down through the leaves or grass...try it and let us know which you prefer!

Linda J is on the beam with her realization that late cross overs hurt the Webelos IIs...They are like fish out of water...Every Webelos I leader owes it to his/her boys to investigate the Boy Scout programs available to the Pack (all or most of the potential Troops your Webelos may eventually join) and determine the structure of these troops' New Scout Patrol program. Most troops have an ongoing NSP program that is 'set' into the annual planning/event calendar...(usually during the JULY -AUGUST period the year before actual crossover.) In many troops the New Scouts join the troop in February, March or even April. The Troop's Boy Scout Program for NSPs is designed to get the boys comfortable and functioning as a patrol by summer camp so that they can be successful in the summer camp setting. It is best for your boys, that if you discover the troop most of your Packs earlier Webelos II ended up joining has its NSP program gearing up for March...you need to modify your pack program to 'cross' the boys over in March. In our Troop, we end up every year having the same Pack, up the road, come to visit us in April for their May cross-over/AoL ceremony...We have three other Packs that cross-over boys in March and our NSP program has been geared for March crossovers for years and years... Almost without exception these Webelos II leaders come back to us with a 'version' of "most of our boys want to join your troop but they don't cross-over until May 18 and by then they are so far behind your other NSPs"...but this Pack keeps crossing over in May! WEBELOS II programs should be tailored to 'ship' the Webelos over to Boy Scouts in a seamless, painless process. By this 'stage' in the boys scouting 'career', getting them settled into Boy Scouts and ready for their first summer camp should 'trump' any Pack tradition or program schedule... SO Webelos leaders; find out about the local troops and their New Scout Patrol Program...then mold your Webelos II effort to seamlessly merge into the Boy Scout Program...your boys will be glad you did (and far better served!) YiS Anarchist

Of course bags can 'loose' temperature 'ratings'...what they are actually loosing is isullation ablity. Even down bags can (and do) wear out. The ablity of a sleeping bag to retain your body warmth is related to the material it uses for insulation (synthetics, goose down, feathers or a combination of materials), and to the material and bag constuction ability to maintain 'loft'. Loft being that property which allows the material to establish a matrix of macro/micro air pockets. These macro/micro-air pockets delay the transport of 'cold' to the body and heat away from it. Hopefully the ablity of the body to produce heat and the bags ability to delay the loss of heat reach an acceptable balance and you get a good noghts sleep. constant compression of the down or synthetic fibres as in some storage methods, improper care and the break down of the material (feathers and down do decay over time or can be degraded by mechanical means or even insects.) Proper care (storing in a very loose bag or box or hangin in a closet can streatch a bags 'life' but eventually there comes a time....Most good bags can do 15 years with proper care but even the best bag can die a horrible death be mistreatment in just a few years... as to the seven degrees every ten years....One would think that when you start with inprecise numbers to start with,(bag ratings are rather subjective- based on 'hale and hearty' young subjects, clean and rested, dry and dressed for the sleeping experiment) getting so precise when estimating the 'death' of a bag is reaching a bit... If you were cold this year...after thirty years...a new bag may be in order...'course us old folks do have circulation problems and staying warm in our advanced age is more difficult year to year...(try out some of the newer synthetics...they are getting better and better...)and if there is a chance of getting wet...better and safer.

The Scout, Actually the arguement for NSPs and Age based patrols is one in the same...If you keep the NSPs together after their first year, the troop very soon becomes one of age based patrols... In our troop, we have been doing NSPs for a quite a while now and find that keeping the boys together for a year is very beneficial...for the boys that is...it can be very hard on the Troop Guides though. By keeping the boys together as an NSP for a year they begin to see what operating as a patrol is all about. They get to rotate the PL and APL leadership positions. By the end of the NSP year they are standing on the verge of a second summer camp and at the edge of first class rank (if not already there). As most of us have seen the scout (most)who has been to two summer camps and made the first class rank has a real foundation in the program and is at last ready to be a "real first-class scout" By short changing the 'program', once the NSPs are in a mixed age patrols they do not, usually, get a real shot at becoming a PL until the older guys 'cycle' out. The NSP Guides are not just older scouts 'visiting' the young boys from time to time. They are leading the patrol...much like a Scout Master leads the SPL and the Troop or the SPL leads the PLC and the Troop. Guides have the toughest and most important job in the troop, PERIOD! For a year they 'live' with these younger boys, teach, show, hold hands, motivate and guide their boys into the real scouting program. If they do it well, the NSPs learn to love scouting and stick with the program...if they do 'less than well' retention and troop 'health' can really suffer. By keeping the NSPs for an entire year these boys go to summer camp as a unit (patrol) and go through the summer camp "brownsea" program for new scouts (or whatever your summer camp may call its first year scouting program). In most cases the summer camp "brownsea" program is tailored to "FCFY" (which remember is an 'offered opportunity'; a goal not a 'required' time-sensitive progression). Coming out of a summer of advancement opportunity and adventure these NSPs really start reaching their stride. Ifallowed to stay together, they do not face a set back of loosing PoRs, and becoming once again...the 'new YOUNG kid'. Try to remember (i know its hard for many of us) back to your school years...(depending on how your distict breaks the age/years of Elementary-High school) First Grade you were low man...fifth/sixth you were top of the heap; 6th/7th grade, again low man eigth/ninth-big man on campus; 9th/10 'pimply dweeb'...12th grade KING! So why would we want to put these guys back into the mix where they are always "little grass hopper". As to the older boys teaching and mentoring...that still goes on! At each activity the SPL should have opportunities for the older boys to mentor and the younger guys to learn! And the older boys in age based patrols are not held back -patrol 'planning wise', if they want to plan a age/skill sensitive activity (say, caving or rock climbing/rapelling). They do not face telling 'little grass hopper he has to wait two or three years... One last point, many of us have seen the 'power and awe' the older scout represents for 6th grade boys...I think this is enhanced (or at least longer preserved) by a certain 'distance'...age brackets if you will. They have less chances of showing the younger boys that older boy Scouts, (like parents) have feet of clay... if they maintain separate patrols. my one and a half cents....

As long as the leaders are 'together' I don't even see the need for a third...for BSA requirements...I think you have issues if each leader spilts off to stay the night in different camps...its problematic...so don't. BW has a point that is not considered in the thread, though CNYScouter may have already checked this out...In our neck of the woods, state and national parks require not only adult presence and 'control' of 'youth group' camping permits but in many cases specific ratios of kids to adults...And the 'contracting adult' has to 'sign' that he and all parties involved understand and will abide by the rules...which I believe is also required by the BSA tour permit...(abiding by the regs. of the camping facility, that is) YiS

Excellent post BW, SemperP your position is eloquent and telling (touching as well). I will not try to pick apart your argument... But I don't think BSA is in the 'God business'... just in the business of building young men of good character with a system the founders felt appropriate and wholesome. The small 'mentions' of 'God/god' are not meant to be bible class or studies in comparitive religion, nor are they meant to be wailing in tongues, rolling in the aisle, walking on beds of hot coals demonstrations of faith, simply ceremonial indications of a commonly held appreciation for siritual growth and duties...small reminders if you will. Note the word 'commonly', not to mean lowly or dirty but indicating a 'community of interest' among many travelers in this adventure we call life... More to the crux SemperP, our program is aimed at children growing into adulthood...these small words are not offered up as honorifics to God/god, as Grand Symphonies, as Cathedrals to God/god...these small words are building blocks for our boys to use as they grow: small anchors for them as the raging storm and crashing waves of 'growing up' cast them about. These small reminders of religious duty are facets of their 'roots', common culture and family beliefs. They are starting points, the beginnings or reinforcements of their own personal base camp, if you will... We don't use Euclidian geometry to teach arithmetc to children. We start small and work upwards... Does God care about BSA? Not pertinent...More pertinent is "do we care about our children?" (and we all know the answer to that one). So a program has been crafted together that is not perfect (sort of cast in our image, eh?!) It (BSA)will not meet the needs of everyone...nor should it...'stooping' to the lowest common denominator has proven disasterous time and time again. BSA is not a religion, simply a worldly organization that as one of its tenents, acknowledges and encourages spiritual growth and religious awarness of its members as important to its mission. It tries to do this in an atmosphere of mutual religious acceptance rather than denominational dogma. The BSA should not be trying to demonstrate its Christian beliefs...or promote GOD; officially it has no such beliefs. It only acknowledges that a faith in a higher power than man is a good thing and wishes to foster 'that good thing'...as a foundation block for its program. American Scouting was not meant to be the end-all for everyone, only one path (an important path, yes) but one of many...To lead, to teach young men to be good citizens and leaders...not priests...or pastors; we leave that to the churches. And we are not perfect, never will be...folks that want perfect... can form a line and build a perfect program, outside of our Scouting program...after all you wouldn't want to build a perfect program on 'inferior' foundations, now would you? I think I would find BSA more inhospitable if it said everyone HAD to be a christian to belong, or a muslim or a jew or an atheist...as it is, believing in a higher power seems just about right...go in peace knowing that God/god does not expect us to be perfect or to act perfect... Religion is the ceremony of our stuggle to understand what God/god wants us to do, and an expression of our understanding...Faith is our acceptance that we will never quite measure up but our God/god has made a place for us at his side (John 14:2-6)

AHH! AHH! AHH! Trevorum, While I agree with the 'myth of lifestyle' arguement, your 'science arguement' is unproven hypothesis...there are NO conclusive, peer-reviewed studies that come close to factual proof that Homosexuality is genetic...none. Suggestions, indications, perhaps but no proof; so lets not claim the scientific community has said the 'world is round' until we prove it... That said, you note not understanding the western cultural antagonism to homosexual conduct...here in the west we have also culturally 'decided' forcing young girls into arranged marrages, pedophillia, slavery, caste systems, surfdom, burning-to-death brides who don't bring enough dowery, hacking other tribes to death and rape are also 'bad' ideas... cultural tabos generally find existance in religion or as a societal responce to 'negative' events and out comes... But does your post mean there are not other cultures (eastern?) that have "issues", taboos or rules? Or is it just western cultural that has oddities... ? and lets get real 'real' here, folks and quit dancing around the 2000 pound elephant in the room...FEAR. Many if not most American families are 'apprehensive' (read afraid) of 'homosexuals' (read pedophiles) being around their boys...( I know homosexually does not equal pedophillia but there is a scientific correlation...and before you jump all over me... I am just explaining to Trevorum some western idiosyncratic issues)...On a personal note; my brother in law would not let either of his boys join scouting due to that fear...so I know it is real. Another large contingent of western (American) culture has religious convictions against socializing with folks they see as continual sinners...this western bias should not be hard to fathom...I believe many Eastern cultures have if not similar taboos...at least some 'interesting' ones of their own. (Muslim, Hindu, even buddists have 'issues', nes pas?) Fear of liablility is a BSA corporate responce, Fear of lossing long-time members and 'sponsors'(COs) would be another...sometimes fear is a terrible thing...some times fear keeps you from jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire.... and... BW I'd take the trained leaders unless the untrained guys were old hunt'n buddies of mine....

Hey SemperP, I fully realize that you were asking for personal 'opinion' (sort of to show how enlightened most of the posters are?) ...but to suggest that my 'guess'(I think) on many, many organizations pulling charters is what I think will happen falls under the same hypothetical (anyone here thinking the LDS and Baptists and many others would allow their facilities to be used by Atheists or Homosexuals?) My questions still stands and is pertinent to the discussion...Where is my unit going to 'continue' scouting, Semper? Is there a Hypothetical Homosexual-Atheist League that will set up meeting halls in thousands of communitties?...In your News Flash is each council gonna share the popcorn money to rent meeting halls? It's a fair response to your question... And of course, as with all 'Hypotheticals' folks can 'vote' knowing the outcome is moot...sort of like congressmen voting for 'crap' legislation knowing that while it looks good for the 'home' constituents it doesn't stand a 'snowballs' chance of being finally passed...or signed into law...the votes are not 'real' in a meaningful way...read where 'the rubber meets the road'. Meaning no disrespect or offense to anyone here, this hypothetical reminds me of the dark ages when startled friends, upon hearing I was rooming with a black guy at school, gave me the old..."er, ah, some of my best friends are negros...but..." We are members of a conflicted society, We belong to an organization that has two (politically incorrect) unpopular membership requirements...currently legal requirements, but viewed with distaste and/or hostility by 'right thinking', liberal minded individuals... As many have indicated in this thread, they feel BSA will eventually 'evolve'...but I doubt that a large segment of the membership will ever go along with such an evolution. And once again I ask the corresponding hypothetical...if your 'news flash' did come about, how would it be fair to existing members who disagreed? Where is balance and where is fairness...? Or do the 'neanderthals' just go away ...quietly? It was fun!

torribug, picking up camp site trash is definitely not a conservation project...it is what every troop should do as they leave a camp site ("better than we find it"). Second...the PLC is not a dictatorship it is a representative body...those boys were elected...your son has every right to suggest to his PL and his SPL anything (nearly) he wishes to suggest...certainly, a service project is 'in order' ALWAYS...he could even request permission to attend the PLC and make a presentation(ours are open to all troop members-voting alone is restricted to elected members) Projects are not hard to 'find' and the scout along with his PL should be able to scare one up with two or three phone calls and a quick chat with the SPL and SM... County State and National parks love Volunteers, most have some paperwork -(liability releases)to be filled out before starting...There are local versions of worldwide clean-up efforts...rivers... come to mind. 'Friends' organizations of National Parks offer several ooportunities each year for 'low drag' (not much planning effort-just show up with work gloves) work efforts... National Arbor day...tree planting, ...It is endless... I would suggest to your boy that he and his DL get together after school and make a plan (and a few phone calls) to take to the PLC next month (week?) We recently camped at a park and used storm-downed tree trunks to line trails and fortify washouts...easy...no brainer...and actually quite a bit of fun.

nutz4scouting, Do your best...(as long as it's within the BSA guidelines)and like a duck, let the rain roll off your back... In a large den there will be some... er...problematic parents. If you have a strong stomach, you might want to email all of your parents and say that the Cub Master has indicated a few parents have 'issues' and you would like to 'air these out', first hand to see if any adjustments need to be made...and you'll buy the coffee...'bets', no one takes you up on it... then continue to do your best... note: 'way back when', I had a couple of parents who had issues with my handling of our 14 boy den...(no one would step up to be a DL so that we could split the den) After speaking with the parents I gave the SM a heads up that complaints were coming his way and his answer was, "It's you den, its yours to run your way...unless they want to take your place" ( I believe he chuckled when he said that). Afterwards, one parent did offer to split the den and no other parent/scouts went 'over'...mom stopped coming (just left it to dad to get her boy to the den meetings) and interestingly about a year ago the other parent stopped me outside the church and out of the blue wanted to 'thank me' as a major reason his son was still in Scouting and doing fairly well(Life)...funny thing, the way some things just 'work' themselves out, huh?! good scouting there is a long fun filled road ahead...with a fair share of bumps...just grin and 'bear' it! YiS Anarchist