Gunny2862

GaHillBilly, I hear your concern and feel your pain. My suggestions are: To keep doing what you know to be the right thing(and BSA policy) whether the rest of the troop follows or not. You will benefit, your son will get the opportunities he needs, and the parents of the troop may very well see that your son is doing it better and wonder why their sons are "lip syncing" and not really getting it done. To visit the other troops as prospective members if you are certain you will be unable to stay in the current situation and if they have no intention of changing. It may also give you positive perspectives on where you are at now. Realize that there is probably not a "perfect" troop maybe one that is perfect for you but probably no perfect troops. The only consolation for me is that our new leadership and new committee want to change - now, if I can just keep setting the uniforming example....

Actualy the LED light is a misnomer, as we know due to the current scientific trend that they do not emit light. They should be referred to as Low Emission Dark-suckers. (LED''s) And the Low Emission refers to the fact that the heat is dissipated on the way to the Dark sucker in this product, rendering it cool to the touch. While the alternate universe theory an enjoyable diversion there is some concern that if it were proven that we might find ourselves in a situation where increased Low Emission Dark sucker usage in an alternate universe may be what is actually causing our Global Warming trends.

Can''t volunteer to teach a "Standard training" course you haven''t taken here either. You can give a Roundtable presentation on it or do a University of Scouting(U of S) class(because they will send a "Proficient Trainer" to supervise you) and get trainers credit but you can''t get credit for taking it without sitting through it. At least in these here woods. Now once you''ve sat through it you can train anyone(one-on-one, small group troop, den, Roundtable, U of S, council) if you have that set of program materials. And yes, my BSA Essentials and SM Specific with YPT and Fast Start and Committee Challenge made for an excruciating day as well(They also did CM Specific). Same timeline issues, and when I signed up it was only the Essentials and SM Specific with a 1/2 day schedule, little did I know they meant 12 hours was a 1/2 day. They did at least provide lunch.

I think we''d have some major "You''ve got to do it/Oh no I don''t" backlash. On the other hand I personally don''t have a problem with it as long as they support the initiative with sufficient training opportunities. If it wasn''t so easy to get Committee members trained we wouldn''t be able to recharter due to our inability to get our SM (I'm the SM)and ASM''s to an IOLS course (none available) before recharter time. And of course, there''s the what''s next - you can''t go to the local public park campground without WFA requirement. I think they''ve got a good reason for doing it, according to the attached FAQ''s. It''s, as usual, a matter of communicating the program well.(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

I think it''s really no different than the two I have right now who are insisting on riding the line all the way out. It''s their opportunity, but when they wind up on the wrong side of the dateline it fails to be my problem, since/if the opportunity was provided by the troop to do it in a timely fashion. Some may say that it reflects badly on the Scouters when a boy doesn''t Eagle, if that is so why isn''t our Eagle completion 100%? I say it reflects badly on the Scouters if we don''t provide someone the opportunity - It remains up to the Scout to capitalize on it. As far as accepting him back, I''m in favor of doing so - people change. But I''m also not going to chase him into completion, he should already be aware of his new timeline and if not, I''d counsel him on what he''s let himself in for by dropping out and coming back this late. But after that it''s up to him to get it done. Of course I''d also like to see him actively camping and assisting the younger Scouts and not just doing "his requirements" as part of the Scout Spirit bit.

Hi Volker, One question I have for you is whether your question is about summer camp or our monthly camp outs. 22 Registered Scouts - 10 Scouters and x number of parents. For the summer camp we maintain at least two registered adults(Scouters) from the troop at the camp for the entire duration that we have any Scouts at the Camp Facility. That may be any combination of the SM, ASM''s, Committee Members or Registered Parents - In our case we require that Youth Protection Training(YPT) be completed as a minimum. We rarely have more than 3 adults from the troop at the camp except for the parents night activity during which we also tend to hold Board of Reviews and a Court of Honor for any rank advancements that have occurred during the week or since the last one. The camp staff is responsible of course for content delivery during the camp. And if we lose(sickness/injury/emergency at home)an adult from the troop and get down to one from the troop we either have to join with an adjacent troop until we have our two adults back or we are required by the camp to leave the camp if no other troops will "join" with us. (Numbers tend towards 15-20 Scouts and 2-4 Scouters) Monthly campouts tend to require a little more parental support, to get anywhere we are allowed to camp requires vehicular travel and for us at least two and usually three, occasionally four vehicles and the at least four adults to drive them. For us at this moment that is tending towards any combination of the SM, ASM and CC plus one or more parents. The parent/s who goes with us does not have to be a registered member but WE do require YPT be completed before they can camp with us. We also let them know that the SPL is running the show until one of the Scouters steps in and that their job is to let the SPL do his, The SM and ASM do theirs and if the CC is along he will step in before they need to, so there is almost never going to be an opportunity where they will need to "Supervise" the boys - so they can just relax and sit around the adult camping area and have some coffee. The only exception for us to this is when we do our annual "Family Camp" and then the parents are free to observe and interact as much as they want as long as they don''t keep their son from delivering his part of the program - demonstrations of what we do the rest of the year for those parents who don''t see it during the monthly campouts.(Numbers tend toward 12-15 Scouts and 3-4 Scouters/Parents) So yes, we do have a few parents around but only rarely are they getting in the boys way if we are keeping them occupied. And even though we are a smaller troop we find we are able to camp at more places including back-country sites than some of the larger troops in the area due to our Conservation Corps camp site restrictions - we actually have a much more active and varied program than some of the larger troops. Does this help?(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

A great story but I''m a Dusty Rhoads fan, and enjoy when Mr. Wrestling #2 takes the ring also. (Suspending all belief processes into a childlike innocence)And yes those ARE the finest conditioned athletes in the world today. Wrestling is absolutely the real deal - you just can''t write stories like the ones that play out in the WWE.(Okay, I''m back)

Well, It''s not about me, but how about we all get a cup of coffee and think about it some more.... That I think is part of the key, realizing that realignment is the perfect time to institute change for things that work better - but to make the argument they have to be measurably better - proven somewhere else for the folks who are comfortable with doing it the way they have always done things to buy in to the change - and some will never buy in anyway, and those will continue to butt in. So you''ll never really hear the end about the changes you make so the issue is then is the change you are making good enough to make it worth hearing about the way it used to be done until those adults are gone? (I AM KING OF THE RUN-ON SENTENCE) I know... sigh, I''ll try to do better...

Is this a Fire Department parcel only or a park adjacent to the Fire Station? In either case if it is a public use facility I would be inclined more towards approval than if it was only for the Fire Departments use and by extension yours. We have the majority of our new stations located in mini-parks, gives the Fire Fighters a place to workout close to the station and can draw the Community into the station for some public relations. In our locale I would be in favor of this project.

Every six months, although there is nothing to prevent a repeat performance of a SPL except his turning it down. I don''t know why we do it this way yet or our reasoning on the time line but we use November and May. I know that the November election requires our incoming SPL to deal with a major fundraiser in his first two months in addition to getting his training and our May election gives the new SPL at least a months worth of meetings before heading off to summer camp. I would kind of like to see a year but also think that a bad leader can really kill you (and the Troop)unless you are really going to hold his feet to the fire about his performance. And in a year long cycle that means if you wind up removing him from the first tour you may hurt both his chances to recover with a repeat performance and impact someone else''s shot at the big POR. Which I think shouldn't matter but we had a 15 and 1/2 year old Eagle candidate get grilled(wrongly IMHO) about why he hadn't had the SPL or ASPL position at his Eagle BoR.(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

Um, sorry, I must not have caught something and am at risk of asking a really stupid question here but, just exactly why are you considering taking newly crossed over boys on a hike that long? Did they come from some kind of uber-pack that did 10 milers? I''d really like to know. My tenderfeet(Not my tenderfeet, the Scouts, by rank) would drive me crazy over five miles, much more so over ten miles, and only two have the mental hardness to do more than that and it would then be a matter of could they physically make it.

No kidding, forget about fines, Incentive Physical Training can be fun - but isn''t a part of Scouting. But back to the original question. Is he doing something WRONG, if so you may choose to impeach/remove him; if not mentor train advise and teach a lesson to him -about leadership, and to the Scouts about the responsibility of evaluating whom you choose to elect. And that post election you don''t get to follow only the leaders you want to follow - but the one who was elected until the next election. (NOT political commentary).

I (at the risk of offending the UP) agree that a very active Scout who is very active outside scouting might get cut a little more slack about showing up in parts of other uniforms - after all they are trying to be there. It''s the Scouts who just don''t want to wear the uniform and have the chance to changeover from whatever else they wear during the daythat get me. And unfortunately for him even though he doesn''t get a POR for it being the SM''s boy is a defacto POR - and the reason I enforce HIS changeover.

In this situation I''d prefer on time, BUT, it doesn''t take long to do a quick change at the meeting place if any kind of privacy can be arranged - we happen to have a supply room we use for that. It''s what my Seventh grade, Tenderfoot, Football player - starting Tight End/Defensive Back does when we are running behind.

My uniforming cake is kind of dumpy, not much rise - anybody got any experience with trying Baking Powder for that? The fry cook -he ain''t no chef yet - wears the full-blown french chef uniform though - too include the funny hat with Baking Society of America standard emblem. Is Baking Powder analogous to infrequent, moving to more frequent, inspections? Or to holding inspections on the PLC and then widening it to the troop? or something else?

John I think there is a test they can run to check for that, I was temporarily deferred for the same thing and am now "cleared".

Okay, I''m new enough it''s possible that I''m either doing too much or new enough that my excellent CC is doing a lot for me but in my troop of 22 I''m averaging about 4-5 hours a week. Camping and Camp and Popcorn excluded of course.

I wanted to thank those of you who replied to my request for suggestions, I needed the encouragement and AM trying to work on several areas at once. I was just a little taken aback by the vehemence of the response to a carefully phrased and delivered request/inquiry at the Parent meeting /Committee meeting. Again thank you all. (This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

I just saw the first local presence of the SpiralScouts the day after I saw this posting. I''d never heard of them before. They have applied to and received permission from the state to keep a local roadway right of way clear of trash. A worthy project for any group. As long as there are tests(and they can''t read your mind) there will be prayer in school.

I MENTIONED(politely) at our most recent committee/parent meeting that we would be holding a uniform inspection in the near future. That it would be nice to know who did and didn''t have one complete uniform and if it had everything on it that it needed what did we need to do if someone couldn''t afford, etc.- and that it really would be preferred(notice - not required) if the complete uniform were worn for one of our upcoming Eagles ECOH. I thought I was going to get lynched. One example... A former SM of the troop, who does fairly well financially - better than me - whose son is a first class, was immediately resistant and started in on the cost of outfitting the boy. Brought up the acceptability of other green trousers - which he doesn''t provide his boy now anyway, substituting blue jeans, etc. "After all - shouldn''t you be going for "Any" uniformity and not decreeing this?" I though I''d see some resistance but not that kind, and not from someone who''d done the job before. And yes, I know what it costs I''m still wearing mine and trying to keep my son from sliding down the slope to where the rest of the troop is at. I felt pretty shell-shocked by the vehemence of the, and widespread, reaction - especially since I was especially careful about my phrasing and there was no way I should have been accused of the decreeing/ forcing of the issue. Suggestions?

We keep our budget at the same rate as the boys, and go shopping at the same time at the boys - often providing transportation and access to the troop coolers. The SM and a parent of a boy who needs the cooking and meal planning advancement and/or a Scout POR holder parent and that POR Scout for each patrol shop if no one needs the requirement.The Scouts shop by patrol. The SM typically does the shopping for the Scouter patrol.(Scouters Rock!) and (Go ask the SPL!) Cooking duties and Cleanup are shared among the adults just like we expect the boys to do. So we each pitch in our $10.00 for a 4 meal and a snack/dessert weekend and still try to inspire the boys that they can eat better. It just takes the pre-planning before the shopping trip and breaking down the recipes and deciding where to economize if anything is higher than you planned.(I almost cried when they broke out the dutch oven this weekend -TWICE! - I''d never seen or heard of a boy touching one - except to scoop out an Scouter prepared treat.)(We are partial to Saturday night cobbler - the breakdown after the sugar rush tends to expedite bedtime.)

OGE and Eamonn, OGE said, "I see Scouting in terms of "cans", we can backpack, we can rock climb, we can whitewater raft, we can canoe, we can survive on only what you can bring in a shoebox for the weekend, we can have fun rather than "can''ts" I like the sentiment, and we strive to see the fun side too...and I''ll even join you in that prohibition check. But do you Backpack without a trail plan and an estimated return time and a person who didn''t go with you who can check that you did in fact return? - We can''t go without that. Do you Rock Climb without a certified climber? We can''t. Do you Whitewater raft without the appropriate training and guide - we can''t, Do you canoe with out PFD''s, we can''t. Okay, true, I guess I missed it, prohibition doesn''t work. That''s why those, um, doofuses (stronger language running through my head)ran their(cold, dead) red light and almost killed me this morning. I shouldn''t have expected them to follow the rules, they shouldn''t have been prohibited from expressing themselves and expediting their arrival at wherever they were going. I''m just glad I wasn''t foolish enough to expect that they would do the right thing and so I hesitated on my green light. We don''t allow firearms either unless at a range and with appropriate NRA trained personnel (another limitation)and then only Rifles, .22''s. (look more limitations). Although I do feel naked without one sometimes.(Among the things you hope you never need, but can''t call time out to go get when you do.)(And a limitation on Scouters) You''ll note we allowed them to carry the phones but put limitations on normal usage. And if MOM needs the precious one she can call me or one of the ASM''s. If the phone is not off and is in coverage.

Oh!, I get it. For I minute I thought you meant Icky-ticky-twoski-hairsky-roosky-icky-ticky- tasky-oh-si-rasky. But you meant the fellow with the much shorter name that rhymes with a famous Japanese machine gun.(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

Gern, I had a lieutenant like that once.... good thing we SNCO''s were independently tracking our movements.

We own and love our ten well used Eureka Timberlines, TL2 Regulars (2 man). If there are more than 18 Scouts and Scouters on a trip we try to adapt by first putting adults in their own privately owned tents until we need to start putting up additional privately owned tents for Scouts - which we still try to keep at two Scouts per tent. Backpacking, you can divide up the Timberline and use it (slightly more weight than a true backpacker and one person will wind up with a little more weight than his partner)or we usually use a variety of Backpacking tents - often donated - because we see smaller groups on the Backpacking excursions. We have not had (knocking on nearby wood) loss issues greater than the occasional tent peg getting bent beyond repair. But we won''t break camp unless we can get the tents dry before we leave (we tend to roll by 10:30 no later than 11:00am on Sunday OR we pack them back to our (Thank you COR) concrete floored extra room where we erect them to dry and then we all meet and put them away the next evening - which is coincidently our Troop meeting time. It''s great knowing that when you are out shopping that if you need more stakes or find some replacement poles on sale that they will fit all of your tents. And that if a tent dies you can salvage it for parts for others that aren''t dead yet. I like the XT''s and will probably try to make the case for them next time around but our regulars have been holding up well. We did take the precaution of uniformly labeling and numbering each tent, tent bag, pole bag, and stake bag in the same locations on each type of item and we teach classes(usually on the excursion) for EVERY person who sleeps in our tentage about how to erect them(including at night), when to take them down and how to store them. Maintenance - we have had no maintenance issues due to our fanaticism about ensuring that they are dry before being stored - these have been well made and our Scouts know that we will not tolerate intentional abuse - as always a ground cloth is recommended and another thing that we ALWAYS use. Campmor has the TL2 Regulars for 99.90 and the TL2 XT for 149.90 in their Fall 07 catalog(the one that was in my office) - those prices don''t move much from catalog to catalog and they give a 10% discount to BSA Troops (see exclusions). (unpaid endorsement) With this tent set up we have an ingrained culture where we don''t really consciously worry about the tents - just ensure that the system doesn''t break and the training keeps going.