Gunny2862

Could I, YES - just leave my internet jack where it is please, thank you. Could the boy, sure - just make sure that he has transport to football or wrestling practice or what ever Scouting activity he needs to get to. Could the wife, yeah right, you''ve got all the chance of turning off her TV that you have of emptying my gun safe. Unless she finishes her business plan and can set her funding plan in stone - THEN she won''t need the tube for more than about 3 hours a week + weather channel time.

In our troop anyone can carry a cell phone - we use them during the vehicle portion for road delays, detour notification for trailing vehicles, lead vehicle off the route(oops! I just passed the turn - I''ll turn around and catch up), We are at the rally point - where are you? etc. coordination. But it''s the Scouts responsibility to keep it safe, with them, or their pack, and OFF once we hit our feet. I concur cell phones are a tool not a crutch - same as GPS.

We don''t charge dues. We don''t require that you do a fundraising activity. We don''t even require Popcorn sales - but if you don''t sell then you don''t get to watch when the highest selling Scout shaves my head if the troop doubles last years sales. We do REQUEST that Popcorn be sold and ENCOURAGE participation in our one BIG fundraiser so that we don''t have to do more fundraisers or charge dues. And we get participation because we show the parents the difference between our 2-3 week push and the cost we would have to charge if we didn''t do fundraisers. We DO have Scout Accounts and if the money isn''t there then unless you have an identified fiscal shortfall(paperwork required) you need to come off of the hip with the cash; whether it''s for camping fees(Troop pays usage fees, canoes , campground etc., Scouts pay food, $5-10 per weekend) or Summer Camp fees or HA trips. If we didn''t do any fundraising our fees would be more than I can afford to do the same things we do now, and much higher than $100.00 annually. That said, the coercive nature of hersheygirls story needs some explanation, maybe they have a reason but it comes off as kind of harsh.

Troop makes wise decision to not blunder about in the darkness, put boys safety ahead of making the schedule, which was blown anyway. Sounds like a plan to me.

Have you looked into the possibility that is might be an Army brigade patch?

Where can one find a source for a set of, or individual rank stamps and possibly POR stamps and maybe even Adult position stamps?

Thanks for your preemptive post scoutldr, you''ve started an answer to my question! And you have reaffirmed one of my earlier statements, i.e. "On the whole our local public education system appears to turn out the whole spectrum of students. Clearly not the best result, but the students intrinsic motivation is where it looks like the system needs the most help to me. Those who have a goal seem to find the path and associations they need and the paths'' and associations to avoid." And now to the question; so what does an involved parent look like, folks! You''ve got me paranoid that I''m one of the slugs who''s not involved in my local schools.(You can never do enough!) So far, neither my wife and I have Life memberships but she has been both a PTA President and Treasurer and we are perennial PTA members. We know about the business end of Bakesales and Newsletters. I know all of his teachers by sight from Pre-K on, my wife ever the overachiever can name them all and most of their children, and believe me they know us- and just go ahead and schedule the office time for us when grade check time arrives. We are in a different school track than I took in this town but I still know most of the coaches from playing against them, and helping now when available - I was on the chain gang at this weeks football game, I was involved in all but two wrestling practices last year. The homework is done and checked(retaught if necessary - that lattitude-longitude stuff gets sloppily done sometimes!) The Cello is practiced, and not just reading but the enjoyment of outside reading is encouraged. His school associates know us well enough to talk to us when we see them. So where''s the shortfall? Or are we sufficiently engaged? Do I wish it was easy to get the rest of OUR LOCAL peers to match us, of course. And yes, I may be a little sensitive, the homeschoolers seem to be claiming not only the better educational system but the moral high ground too. (I refuse to belive that it is immoral to leave a child there who is doing well and is a positive influence.)And yet, this forum keeps coming back to a general agreed upon necessity for some kind of public system. (I''m trying to stay open to the arguments however.)

I agree with John but would like to add in that splitting duties works you can''t split resposibility, it just lends itself to confusion. One of the two of you has to be the final authority. I don''t know that I would approach it as a co-SM position rather that of leaning on one particular ASM who has agreed to the situation in advance. Is the other person in the Committees/COR''s line of sight for SM selction also? And are they reluctant for some reason to take on the whole thing? If that is the case then this could work well. But above all this would have to be someone who will openly, proactively and timely communicate good and bad with you, and you need to be able to do the same. If it''s not going to work I think it would be because of some form of communication gap.

Shhhhhhh! Be careful. Unlike the UP who just harang you about your uniform, the Lightbulb Changing Cops Patrol will light you up!

I appreciate everyones comments although I may not especially like some comments. But then I feel that it is probable that there are those who feel the same way about mine. A little uncommon courtesy goes a long way. And yes, this is very much an alternate reality, part of it is figuring how much of what people are saying is what they know it should be versus how much they actually do. And I like seeing both answers - they help this new guy pick his battles. Stick around Oak... Youse guys(and gals)is da greatest. (Insert appropriately touchy-feely emoticon)

And 5 or more former military Scouters to point out that you don''t really need the light bulb if you''ll just allow your eyes to acclimate to the darkness... after all, they''ve done it that way for years. And 3 Scouters to shout against the militarization of Scouting by such methods. A 4 historian Scouters to bring up that B-P would have done it by acclimating to the darkness. 2 other historian Scouters to reply that B-P didn''t really mean that, if he ever said it at all.

Aquila, I agree about innocence lost and protecting your children but I am also watchful and protective. I don''t see any of the... "They don''t swear, they don''t bully, they''re not held back while others catch up nor are they pushed ahead to keep up, they don''t waste a lot of time on current youth culture, there''s no boy-girl relationship drama, they dress modestly, and treat others with respect. We would never put them in a youth group that did not have adequate supervision." ...in my child or his PEERS either. Now there are kids at school who do swear and everything else that you mentioned and sadly for the particular HSers I referenced earlier their parents don''t know that some of their kids do the same and are having other particular immoral behaviors with other HS kids but are hiding it from their parents. But yes, I am proud of my child and his approach to education, socialization and his friends. To date, and that''s all any of us can say, the boy is doing all I could expect of him; He studies, gets above average/ excellent grades, reads for fun, loses and wins well, knows the stakes of the boy/girl game and is choosing not to play, knows when to lead and when to follow and makes good choices about who to follow. Is a leader in individual and team sports and is looking for more responsibility to make those around him better and grow himself. Do I worry about that going south, absolutely, because that is a pretty impressive characterization for a thirteen year old.

Tom, in the Scouting world I''m a newbie, March/April ''07, no prior experience as a Scout or in Cubs. Yet due to circumstances in the troops past leadership I was asked, after going to one summer camp and three monthly outings and a whole slew of training(that I had to dig to find out when, and where and what I needed), to put on the hat. I''m still trying to get IOLS, next available in Spring ''08. No one else would step up, no one thought they were a better candidate. The committee was solid that I was in fact a selection and not just the only one available. It doesn''t take a whole lot of time IF, you have a good committee who are doing the parts they should, IF you have an existing program that has been well run, IF you are semi-organized. If I had your experience, I would base my decision on the personal aspects of how it would affect my boys, and I would ask them about it. You could actually consider taking your new Scout into the Troop with you as SM and go back with the older son to be an ACM and Den Chief(your older son will probably progress faster than you think)to be with your younger son and do both as long as the meeting times don''t overlap. The older son doesn''t have to be the younger sons Den Chief. And he wouldn''t necessarily have to stay with the pack until the younger son moved up. I''m not sure what the time frame would be - is it a five year gap? If you do choose this course consider if you are willing to give that kind of time over the long haul. Good luck and PM'' me if you wish.

Aquila, I know that the weakness of my argument is that I can only talk about what I see from the home schoolers(HS)I know. The following is a short synopsis of the conditions an outsider sees in local home schooling. The ones that I see "weekly" are very much in the "religious fundamentalist" "hiding their children from the secularist evil world" group v. the "I''m going to give the child the best education possible" group. The socialization in the majority is only with other HSers in what I can best describe as "home school only" sport leagues, or school collectives that allow parents who are weak (or timid) in one area to allow another parent to teach that portion of the curriculum. So there is very little diversity that the kids that I know of are exposed to. In one group in particular the "church HSed" kids from the same church aren''t "allowed to associate with the same churches youth group because they other kids in the youth group have been "tainted" by going to those Public Schools(PS)." And yes, that was a HSer parents paraphrased statement of why their children wouldn''t do the churches youth activities. Now they do have the right to insulate their children if they choose to do so. I do "get" the argument. I just don''t necessarily find it compelling, although I do think it''s slightly offensive, in our circumstances. The HSed that I have met outside of Scouting on the whole can barely relate to public schooled youth of their own age, much less across race, age or gender - with the exception of the home schooled who are Scouts. Partially because there is an "I am home schooled and your parents don''t care about you, you heathen." attitude among the non-Scouting HSed when talking to their PS peers. Of course to be fair not all PSed kids fair well outside of their peer group. But in my experience, the PSer''s do tend to be better prepared to speak to adults other than their parents. The HS boys that get into Scouting tend to work out fine after some period of adjusting into the fact that the other boys are always talking about "outside" things they are insulated from. Conversely they do tend to be better Scouts because they aren''t focused on talking about everything else but are focused on advancement and Scouting activities because that is what they are here for. Anyway that''s MY perception of the LOCAL(and where my comments come from) but not National picture and I do know some exceptional HSed kids - but they were first, kids I knew before I got into Scouting and second, ALL of the exceptional HSed I know were, or are in Scouting. From this perspective, my boy has a better chance of developing a wider set of skills, including his leadership skills in the PSs, school sports, and through Scouting, locally, than if we were to join the home school cliques I am aware of locally. I am sure that there are other, better home school situations. NOT trying to offend anyone, just showing you the context from which I speak. I know, or expect and hope, that that is NOT the nationwide norm on home schoolers or their children.

In my area, we as Scouters are under the mandated reporter umbrella, which means we don''t just call the SE but we are required to call Child Protective Services if there is evidence or reasonable suspicion(define that term please) of child endangerment. Or we become indictable for contributing. There''s a local principal on trial(the job is gone) for not informing CPS even though she did report it up to her Supervisor. Showing up impaired to drop off or pick up a child would not be wise at our meetings. Having priors?, well I''m not intentionally going to look any harder but when the suspicion trigger trips theres just naturally going to be a little less leeway.

Aye, Mom to Eli, And there''s the rub, I''d love to throw the old SM hat on pretend its a DI cover and insist on the uniform worn my way. But its really about developing self-discipline in the boys - at the Boy Scout level. Sure I could let it go completely too - and let the boys decide - but is that Scouting? It''s definitely ignoring one of the methods. Yes if I insisted, I could probably get my way but I would also be throwing up a huge roadblock on getting other things that need to be done taken care of. For now, I''m in full field uniform at every opportunity,(working the adult association angle) bringing up to the SPL that we need to hold a uniform inspection in the near future and talking about how anything else is inappropriate at Eagle CoH''s which are upcoming, and learning how to run JLT on the next batch of POR holders - and you can bet uniforming will be stressed during that course. I''ve already got a few thinking right but they are trying to overcome the inertial of past habits and the still current wanting to go the other way peer pressure. Some of the negative peer pressure(and this really annoys me) is coming from the children of the Cubmaster of one of our "feeder" packs. I haven''t been to one of their meetings but I now wonder if he wants the cubs in full uniform - or if he accepts them the way he sends his boys to me.

In order to provide a diverse and higher level program we are actually shuttling our child TO the inner city school which is the only one that has IB and MYP programs running at the middle school level. Yes, there are MORE children there that I would normally not choose for him to associate with, but he knows what he wants(has had a stated goal to attend Annapolis since he was ten) and knows the kinds of choices(people, activities) he has to make to get there. In the mean time he is learning to interact with people of other races who attend the downtown school - an opportunity he would not have had in our otherwise largely homogeneous Anglo community. Scott, I am sorry if my remarks offended you. Never did I in any way indict all home schoolers. The computer curriculum system you mention sounds interesting, and I can seriously relate personally and on behalf of my son on the bored in school argument. Our biggest problem currently isn''t doing the homework it''s just getting it turned in. If it''s on time its typically 95% or better, it''s the late point deductions that drop his grades right now - and the work has been completed on time. Lisa makes a great point, we DO need an overhaul of our Prussian designed citizen molding model based on antiquated models of citizenship.

And there is the rub. As a responsible adult I really prefer to know the reason why I''m doing something rather than hearing, "Because I told you to." It may be an appropriate answer for a recruit in basic training, a private in certain circumstances - but I cannot fathom how it could be the correct answer for someone who is nominally in charge of delivering the program. And who MAY be in jeopardy of being liable for not complying with any unexplained provisions.

Communication is the key! I don''t think it was an inappropriate subject for middle schoolers but: First, horribly handled in terms of not communicating the intent to the parents. "Parsley said Brooks sent the letter out with no explanation or disclaimer, and was relying on students to tell their parents it was part of a lesson plan." We all know this always is the best method availible!!! Second, there is no way that I am going to condone the idea that a parent should ever be asked to sign any political statement as part of their childs school project. Permission/Informed consent/Opt-out slips only please. Thirdly, neither should the child. A mock election is one thing - these school papers have a nasty way of turning up later. Okay, usually it''s been a college work but still, new technology like scanners make it possible for those with an agenda to file away things for the future that would never have been attempted before. (sorry my conspiracy theorist had to express itself)

At the risk of sounding like I''m bad mouthing the company in question, I''ve gone through and had so many troops have the same things happen that we tended to treat the Mini''s as disposables. Now if the four cell went south, I''d probably send it in.

Sorry, double post.(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

As a former ADHD and ADD parent, (he''s thirteen and the DC''d last of the meds, when school started this year and is doing very well) one thing to remember is that not only the disease is in question here but also the parenting. Is this an ADHD issue, or is it a parenting issue or a confluence of both? My child knew perfectly well that there were things that at different stages of his growth that we would look on as symptomatology, which he should still attempt to control, and others that were just plain old ordinary bad behavior - where he would be cut no slack at all.(And the customary disclaimer - I thought the ADHD/ADD thing was a simple scapegoat for bad parenting until I had a child with it.) I would probably ask, as has been recommended above, that she temporarily step down to an assistant position and deal primarily with her own child. I would also ask her what the treatment resources she has been using are and how reliable is the diagnosis. There are a lot of different medications and the dosage is CRITICAL also. We went through many different treatment plans before finding one that worked reliably - and even then we had to constantly monitor his weight, as he grew as little as five pounds could have a huge impact on the medications effectiveness - so much that he would occasionally ask to see the doctor because he would start to feel out of control, usually when this occurred we''d put him on the scale and see an unnoticed weight gain. But if there are any Autistic characteristics they may have given an improper medication in the first place. The drugs only work on what they work on - and the child''s own brain chemistry affects the choice of medication also. Good luck, I hope all involved find workable answers.

On vouchers, I am not against vouchers, my issue is that until they are available this market won''t have any place to use them, and there won''t be any place to use them until they are available. I''m not sure I would use them, but I''d like to have the choice. And a viable option. On homeschooling, My experience and my experience only is that the majority of home schooled kids DO get a better academic education but at the expense of social skills relating, especially, to adults. I know of some VERY bright homeschooled children who are nearly incapable of evaluating and selecting appropriate ways of interacting with adults where they do not already know their social position and their relative position. And have a hard time interacting with non-home schooled kids. Often I have seen a particular set of these children who are constantly reminded of how special they are to have been home schooled, talking down to any new adult they meet. As an aside - the ones I met who were the most level headed were the ones who were involved in Scouting - and this was before I got involved in Scouting. My perceptions are probably colored by my experience and I do know that there are the exceptions - but these are usually trained educators who choose to school their own children and aren't trying to shield them but give them the best education they can find by providing it themselves. Of course I also run into home schoolers who have no business, other than it is their children and their right, attempting to educate their children at home and doing an incredibly poor job. But the results for that won''t come in until their transcripts are evaluated for entering college or by an employer for their first job. On Markets, On the whole our local public education system appears to turn out the whole spectrum of students. Clearly not the best result, but the students intrinsic motivation is where it looks like the system needs the most help to me. Those who have a goal seem to find the path and associations they need and the paths' and associations to avoid. Personally, In my case I know that the poor kid is better off trudging to the school house than having myself and (the wonderful and much more educated than me, Mom) as his academic teachers. (No he doesn't really trudge - he''s actively engaging his instructors, has terminated the ADD meds., is doing well and enjoys school).(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

uz2bnowl, Divergent opinion, I love head lamps,especially LED, use them almost exclusively now, but for a handheld the Mini-mags have consistently failed me "when I really needed it". Often by corrosion - it was okay yesterday - or by battery failure and expansion - couldn''t extract the battery even by destructive methods and have a flashlight left when I was done. Don''t get me wrong I still like the four cell Mag-light for certain things. But not Backpacking. I''m using a SureFire C2 for my emergency "must have light" light now. I also own a G2 Nitrolon. Yes the batteries are more expensive but they, by experience, do have a long shelf life and I''ve never seen one corrode. I like the fact that I have never had one fail, under any conditions, anywhere. (unpaid testimonial)

I''ll be watching this thread. We have never had a newsletter that I know of. Until this months issue of the Bugler - unfortunately the silly SM failed to engage brain and did it in MSPublisher which almost no one else had. Wound up printing copies and handing them out to the boys as take homes and hoping the parents saw them. At this point I''m thinking MS Word and the e-mail list and printed/mailed to the homes without e-mail access. I''ll be looking for how others do it. Great topic ozemu!