fred8033

My main point was I'd support the council, but supplementary unit fundraisers were unit business. I wouldn't waste much time asking permission to sell chocolate bars or wreaths or .... To your point ... I agree, but there is reality. The real change is the unit doesn't have to support FOS or promote it or hit FOS targets. ... BUT ... that doesn't mean the council won't do their own fundraising. Councils have lists of who gave in the past and lists of the current membership. I can't believe the council would not do their own FOS drive using that data. ... My real question is whether the district has FOS targets still. I'm betting the district still has to do business FOS. Maybe help with the family FOS.

"it was very clear" ... I would not infer hidden planning or subverting efforts. When my sons did high adventure, ... as they left the high adventure ... they wanted to do more high adventures. They started planning and discussing during the hours of driving and flying. Wanting to do the next big thing is a natural result of a successful high adventure. I think they did something similar where they found the next big thing even before they got back. "every other year" ... From what I've seen of a successful older boy program, that's just not acceptable. That will give each scout one chance for high adventure. You will lose the older scouts. IMHO, the successful older boy program is more "every few months". A big summer event / trip (aka high adventure). Moderately big fall, winter and spring events. The real challenge is managing cost and adult time for these events. My view of a reasonable position ... The SPL and SM have responsibility to the troop as a whole. That is a commitment they make by having the role / title. Any single patrol can make alternative plans (aka older boys planning high adventure) ... BUT ... the SPL, PLC and SM have responsibility for the troop as a whole. IMHO ... you could have a 14 year old SPL and a older boy patrol that wants to focus on high adventures. There is no rule saying the SPL must be one of the older boys.

You should discuss this directly and privately with the SM and the CC. As an ASM, you should be in tight coordination / discussion with the SM. It sounds like you are not. Perhaps he has a vision or plans that are not well coordinated between himself (SM) and the other ASMs. From what I read, a lot could be interpreted as a good program depending on other items. Personally, I would expect ... Older scouts need a more challenging program. Higher adventures. This often needs to be done separate from programs good for the 10-14 year old scouts. PLC and SM has a responsibility to plan a robust program for everyone. This may mean older scouts doing one thing and younger scouts doing others. It could even mean PLC asking each patrol to plan their own adventures ... it really depends. Personally, I've mainly seen older patrols add to enrich their experience, but leave the younger stranded without a rich program. CC and committee have responsibility to make sure PLC and SM are doing their jobs for the whole troop. And they approve the calendar. Not plan, but approve. Younger scouts do NOT necessarily need older scouts to "lead" them during camp outs, etc. Often the younger scouts grow the most by trying to lead without the older scouts around. Don't equate age with good leadership. IMHO, it sounds like you may just need to coordinate perception with the scoutmaster. He might also be looking to step down and the next SM to show commitment. Personally, this a good opportunity ... if coordinated well with SM and PLC etc ... to affect the calendar to put good ideas on for the whole troop (i.e. the younger scouts). ... It sounds like the SM essentially make the request ... I'd take him up on it.

I agree, but my view is slightly different. Paper scout handbook is for the scouts. It's the best way for them to track, drive and own their advancement. Online tools such as internet advancement or the online scoutbook web site is for the adults and parents. The online scoutbook.com the best way for them to see BSA's official records. When the SM signs off a rank or receives a MB card, it should be entered by an adult into BSA's official records ... as soon as possible. BUT, it should be fully recorded in the paper scout handbook too.

You MUST get their data online into BSA's systems. Most councils now do NOT enter paper advancement records. They don't have the staff. You don't need to load any partial or in progress items. It is critical though to enter earned badges/ranks/awards at the time they are earned (or at least before being awarded). The key point is you risk your scout's future if you don't keep their BSA records current.

I am absolutely one who is tired of the evil middle aged white man argument. I find it hypocritically driven from hate and bigotry and dependent on simplistic lazy logic. BUT .... with that said ... some of the statements in the book are absolutely true. Scouts was absolutely a reaction to industrialization and trend of the population moving from the country into cities. ... Scouts was right in line with "Go west" quotes about maturing boys into men. The originally posted link has a link to a good article that rings true ... https://daily.jstor.org/go-west-you-nervous-men/ ... Warning ... the article does go off the rails raising topics such as "xenophobia and racism". My response is show me a culture in 1850s / 1900s that didn't have contempt for the outsiders. Adult men absolutely have romanticized boyhood. Before scouts in the country, boyhood was hard and families often focused on survival. Now, we often see adult men play scouts to revisit their childhood. I am sure it's part of the reason I enjoy the program. Sleep in tents. Eat off a camp fire. Laugh and look at the stars. ... flip side ... avoid home maintenance, get away from extended family relationships and issues, hide from being an adult. ... I do disagree that it was a reaction to the wars. But then again, I am sure war experiences drove Baden-Powell.

The scout-led annual planning was one of our troop's high points for years. The idea was the SM worked with the SPL so that the SPL was ready to run the planning. Some of the prep was finding school and holiday calendars. Others were getting paper calendars, easels, tape and other materials. Then, the troop had last years annual planning goals and choices put up to the side. Then the troop would work through goal planning, idea generation and also then putting date and events on the calendar. The SPL and PLs would vote and coordinate. Often, any scout who wanted to attend could. But it was SPL led and PLs were the main focus. The SM sat in the back answering questions and being a friend to the SPL who tried to keep the meeting in control. IMHO, it was key that the SM had done this for 15+ years and knew a vision for annual planning and knew how to coach the SPL. When the scouts left, we had at least one copy of the 18 month calendar with weekends, tentative locations, events and activities. Also, service patrol. Program patrol. Themes. As quick as possible, the camping coordinator tried to get things reserved for as far into the future as possible. Usually 12 month reservations. Anything less than 10 months was putting things at risk.

I agree ... We were better with <city> troop <#> Problems ... many of our troops pull from multiple cities. Personally, I don't see it as a big issue if my kid was in a neighboring city troop. It would be interesting ... Metropolis Troop 5. identifying troops would be harder. Data input would be harder and would always require city and state.

I'm with you. No policy necessary. I've seen thoughtful practices such as new SPL is really elected a two year position. Six months of incoming ASPL. Then 12 months SPL. Then outgoing ASPL for six months. But even with those thoughtful practices, I prefer none. IMHO, the best is to keep it simple and keep the adults in the back of the room. At annual planning, schedule elections twice a year. As close to just over six months as possible. I liked how our troop did it for years. An ASPL scramples to find paper and tears it into election slips. SPL asks for nominations. Each nominee accepts or rejects and/or gives a reason why they want the job. Our troop had SPLs often for 12 or 18 months because the boys would re-elect the SPL until the SPL didn't want to be SPL anymore. SM was always ready to coach a new leader.

"professional life" ... I was differentiating with trades. Trades can provide good income to raise a family. But, trades still mostly require a two year degree (or more) that directly targets the skills to be used. IMHO except for technical degrees (sciences, math, engineering, etc), the general college degrees rarely directly help professional careers ... except to get hired. I've seen many many well educated high school graduates that I consider as well suited for most professional jobs.

Now is when you plan 2020 trips. You're right on schedule. I'd call someone experienced with that exact water. Flows. Waves. Tides. Wind (predictable and BIG issue for us on certain parts of river due to landscape). A good advice I'd give is do your big leg on the first day. We always planned 19 / 20 miles first day and 8/12 miles second day. Scouts were tired on the second day and wanted to get off the river a little after noon.

I firmly agree, but it's now the starting point for a professional life. Very hard to have a long term stable career without a college degree. Personally, I don't see it adding much actual value or capability anymore.

How fast does the river flow? It depends. Moving water or lakes? Unloading, portaging and reloading? For our river trips, we timed it in the fall so the river was slow at about 4 mph. We did 18 to 20 miles the first day. Plenty of breaks for lunch, etc. The key was that even if the scouts did not paddle, we'd get to our destination. It was more a matter of how long we were on the river.

I had misinterpreted as "in-work" merit badges. The question was different in that it was asking about completed merit badges. Specifically, the troop stub portion of the blue card. I do know counselors that keep their inventory long term. I don't. If a scout needed it signed again, I would after a brief chat of where and when and a few of the details.

... Personal use. Not troop ... My absolute first choice ... his paper scoutbook. Put clips or tabs on the key pages were data is recorded. ... Get a zippered cover so he can keep blue card and other paper records if he needs them. My electronic choice is scoutbook. They used to have an individual account if your troop doesn't use it. If they do, ask for your login as a parent. Then, connect your scout to it. It has good reports and good tracking. And, it's BSA's official records.

I knew a scoutmaster that kept them for 20+ years. I personally see little value. I'm with T2Eagle. Now that records are electronic, it's mostly redundant. Minimize the time invested. Have an envelope for 2010, 2011, 2012, etc. Throw away after a few years or eight if it makes you feel better. I've never seen a troop use their portion of the cards to recreate records. Maybe in the old days it would have happened. But not now.

Yeah. I was in a mood, but that is the common comparison to a logical fallacy.

Until they see the scout. Question is a little like "when did you stop beating your wife?". It's hard to answer because you shouldn't be doing that. The blue card should either be in the hands of the scout or the counselor. When done, the scout hands in the troop's portion for the troop to keep. The scout keeps his part. The counselor keeps his part.

I see sports and scouts with similar pros and cons. The big difference I see is that results in sports is much more visible. Confidence. Satisfaction of the parent watching their kid drive kick the ball, hit the ball, pass the ball, etc. Scouts is much more subtle. I often think it's hard for parents to see the benefits. But when I looked close at my kids after each camp out or event, I always saw a little more maturity or capability or pride. My cheap parent view is sports is about more immediate gratification. Scouts takes a longer time to see. Not all parents will wait that long.

I think this is one of the reasons. All my adult leader friends who brought a smile when they showed up have moved on. I still have many friends, but it is not like it was. And I must admit ... this last month, I've done a lot of yard work and home projects that I have put off for a decade. It's sort of nice working my ticket back into my home life.

I've been mulling when to step away and make room for the next volunteer. This will be my 20th year in scouting as a parent. 18th year as a volunteer leader. 500+ nights camping. ... I like sleeping outside on a nice cool night more than sleeping inside ... Wood badge was 11 years ago. Lots of district and council work. I've also done a lot of volunteering outside of scouting. I once thought scouting would be my life-long volunteer passion. But, it's lost it's luster for me in many ways. Maybe that's normal that as you get more involved and more responsible for the content, you also learn more of the inner details. Over this next year, I'll be looking to have someone else take up my district and unit roles. It's time for me to step back.

We had scouts skit by patrol. Parents in the back. Siblings tended to do their own things either with patrol or with parent. Sometimes we had the patrol flags and scouts sat by their patrol flag. Usually a semi-circle.

It has been a few years, but we used the online application for those who were not at the recruitment or join events in-person. Essentially, we'd get them signed up any way possible. BUT ... we preferred the paper. It allowed us to charge the full pack dues. Not just that portion that was paid to national or council. It was always uncomfortable having someone fill out the online national / council application, and then ask them for the pack membership fee later. We used that fee for program, awards, special events, advancements, food, cub books, annual t-shirts and misc cost. We averaged a cost of $30 to $50 per year per cub. We thought we were doing well. We did have a supplemental cost every year that was paid by fundraiser. That fundraiser amount let us go above and beyond. As for online apps, it was nice and smooth. Only issue was whether to charge full pack dues or waive the pack dues for the first year ... (actually first 12 months ... at that time, the online app covers rechartering through the first cycle.) We collected dues in September.

Very sad. BSA is tagged with the greater fault when BSA did more than most institutions to at the time.

You are right. It is fear. I fear someone reading our chat / discussion as direction and advice to go create a library of checklists. I'm okay to use them initially as a tool to teach out to plan a troop meeting or run a PLC or plan a campout meals. I fear another troop rules book. I fear permanently using a library of checklists. I just remember too many times and too many scout leaders that want to write more rules or add forms / checklists instead of providing subtle guidance in the background. I've seen many experienced adult and youth scouts work with new scouts and new leaders to learn their new role. IMHO, it's that interaction that we want. IMHO, person-to-person strongly over forms.