fred8033

"local area" ... I always love vague terms. What is local? I'm assuming a "state" is not "local". I'd agree a neighborhood is "local". Probably also a city. Maybe a county. Our council is large (many counties) and our troop camps are all outside our council area or even outside the state. I'd argue none of our summer camps can meet the expectation of "local". Question ... Am I the only one tripping and falling over the title "Scouts BSA"? It's easy to say Cub Scout camps. Or Venturing activities. Or Sea Scouts. But when I say "Scouts BSA" I feel I always need to include a reference to "troops" to avoid confusion on whether I mean the larger organization or the 11-17 year old program. I feel like we are looking at another program rename / restructuring within the next several years to solve the confusion.

Social distance? Scouts can't keep their hands off each. Pushing. Shoving. Sharing a chair. Trading gear. Playing games. It is 100% unrealistic to think you can have 6 to 8 scouts who are 11 to 15 years old stay six part away from each other for multiple days. I doubt if you could succeed for 15 minutes. Each scout would have to be driven by their own parent Each scout would need his own space. Each scout would need his own tent, chair, table, rain tarp, stove, plan, cooking supplies, wash basin Each scout would need his own bathroom or shovel to dig ... so much for leave no trace. Each scout need to wear a mask the whole weekend. Assume 5 to 10 masks per scout. Once bathrooms, tables, water spigots, door handles, etc are involved, you just can't avoid cross contaminating. As s leader, I do not take responsibility for setting up tents, cooking, running the camp outs or much else. But I do have a large responsibility for safety. There is no way I could honestly say I could succeed with socially distance from their own patrol mates. One of the proudest traditions in our troop is that we encourage scouts to help each other setup tents. When you are done with yours, help the next guy. ... There is no way we could still do that and have socially distancing.

Agreed. From what I see, this is a family camping / hiking summer.

For camping, I'd fully align with council direction. I'd fear beyond normal personal liability if my troop camped while our council cancels their own. I'd only support unit camping if the council explicitly says units can resume their own camping. It's not just personal liability. We are talking real risk. Plus, I'd be tormented forever if I was the leader that ends up with sick kids and sick adults after being told the council is canceling their own camps.

Tech related eagle projects can be difficult for Eagle candidates to keep control of planning, developing and leading. It really depends on the tech project, but many of these projects require special skill and do not lend cleanly out to leading by a non-tech expert. Scouts become too dependent on individual adults with special skills to plan and organize. Also, scouts often become too dependent on individual adults to invest many hours. I've seen too many scouts that loose control of their project because the nature of the work just doesn't lend to the scout leading the project. I fear many tech projects fall into that pattern.

I keep flip-flopping. I celebrate finding a way to keep scouts involved in scouting. I celebrate finding a way to distract scouts during this stressful time. On the flip side, virtual camp outs are just not the same thing. I have a real hard time figuring where to position on this. Is it possible we will end up with Eagle scouts who only camped in their own back yard ? But then again, maybe that is an acceptable reflection of today.

I've seen this over and over again. Maybe it's okay if the scout likes chasing patches for the sake of patches. Most scouts roll their eyes at the tedious boredom and are frustrated with people wasting their time ... just like we hate our time wasted. The MB program was supposed to be face-to-face and scouts is about being "active" and "growing". I'm betting few scouts learn something new or interesting in such as session. IMHO, if the session is about getting the MB opportunity to as many as possible, then don't do it. Either find a local councilor or wait for something special or unique or cool,

Do the fundamentals need to change? What is a council? What is registration / membership? Rethink councils. From what I'm seeing, much of what happens in the council office is in support of national and could be eliminated / reduced or put only on-line. Scout shop. Registration. When I look further, councils could really be viewed as owning and administering properties to create scout opportunities. The idea of "councils" having membership and running their own program seems wrong. Rather, shield properties by running / owning them under the council. BUT, training, materials, advancement, membership seem best to be separated from scout properties and could be separated from councils. Rethink membership. Could registration be changed to be a statement that you will follow the BSA scout program, structure and advancement. BUT, leave "membership" as part of the charter organization. This might be a nuanced change but I see BSA having no control over "membership". They can only "revoke" membership after things go bad. That is a poor model. It seems registration should really be a statement of following the BSA program, but without the concept of "membership" or BSA oversight of the individual. BSA needs to re-think the organizational basics.

That is a root problem. Confusion is often willful too. Many don't really care about the goal as much as the certificate. At some point, I think Eagle would be better reflected by 125+ nights of troop camping and a variety of experiences.

I "prefer" to emphasize differently. It's NOT about completing homework or bringing their homework to the MB session. That's a counselor driven "this is what I need to see" aka teacher/student style. The MB program is more mentorship or on-the-job training.

Many scouts roll their eyes at the MB program. Scouts see it as an overlapping and a shallow dive into topics already deeply covered at school and covered better. Scouting should NOT be about sitting in meetings. MBs should not be class room based. Scouting should NOT be about adults holding the hands of the scouts. . It hurts when troop leaders or parents arrange MB events and makes it so that scouts need to just show up. If adults make the arrangements, the MB event should be special and memorable. For example, scouts scheduling a canoe trip. I think it's okay for adults to make sure a canoeing MB counselor is registered on the trip. Scouts could then talk to the counselor. If scouts want to weld and metal work, I think it's okay for a troop to arrange a welding event ... if it's special.

How about ... no staff that has recently traveled out of state ... or staff must quarantine at home for three weeks after traveling out of state before arriving at camp

I wish you the best. I'm trying to make just a simple decision for summer camp ... if summer camp is offered. My last son has a medical condition that makes him vulnerable and there is no chance of a vaccine by July. So do I wait until I have to put money out? Or do I cancel now? Our local camp is asking for deposits, but they have been fairly good at waiting for full payment. My gut says there is no way I'll send my kid even if the camp is open. But, I'm leaving options open for now. I just can't see how any summer camp will happen right now. This will take a year and a vaccine to solve. I'd hate to be the camp directories and councils this year. How do you budget, staff and purchase materials with such huge unknowns ? I'm better there are tons of parents holding off saying no, but that when the final decision comes they will NOT send their kids to camp this summer.

Yes. I even bought one or two to see if they were useful and how they worked. They were okay. The biggest problem was it was a profit center and we had to pay. http://ocscouting.com/blog/20-interactive-digital-merit-badge-pamphlets-including-every-eagle-required-badge-now-available/ Now, I see merit badges are PDFs at least for cover, requirements and a referenced materials page. Looking through Scouting.Org, I was pleasantly surprised that many DOCS are now PDFs. That's really nice to see. BSA has made huge progress. It's great to see. REALLY NICE TO SEE. https://www.scouting.org/programs/scouts-bsa/adults/publications/ These should be fully online too as very few adult leaders know the material. Troop leader guidebook (vol 1 & 2) Troop committee guidebook ... I'd bet 1 in 200 committee members have read this. It needs to be easily available. Program Features ... to be "scout run", scouts need this when they need it. It can't sit in a troop closet or with the previous youth leader. The Conservation Handbook ... Yeah, who's bought this? It should be online and easily available. Let BSA make money selling the Boy Scout Handbook, shirts, patches, etc. But why would we block easy access to key materials needed to run a good program.

I've never been that caught up in any one "requirement" as I view the scouts need to do many things to earn each rank. And it's that journey that is important. Each individual requirement I could take or leave. Maybe swimming. I think that's very important. I've always thought the scouts would benefit in one or more ways. IMHO, the requirements were never the benefit of scouting. It was always Fellow ship of other scouts. Learning to work together. Experience new things together. Helping each other. ... Build citizenship New experiences. Stretching the comfort zone. Expanding awareness. ... Builds character Working hard. Going further than you have before. ... Builds physical fitness Working outside the family unit. Cutting the parental umbilical cord. Realizing you can find solutions on your own ... Builds independence and responsibility The new requirements stab at the heart of the program and are just wrong.

You don't need to resign. I'd hold fast with the same investment, planning, effort, growth, etc that need to happen. BSA says in the same statement ... "Even when using video conferencing, all virtual campouts and activities should consist of as many elements found on a normal outdoor campout or activity as possible. The most significant difference is that patrol or troop members are not all in the same location. All existing youth protection policies and digital safety guidelines must be followed." So ... where it says "stove" ... I'd strongly interpret that as a "camp stove" or a "fire". I would NOT accept a kitchen stove as I've only seen one troop bring a kitchen stove on a camp out. AND YES, I did take pictures.

There are many MBs and individual requirements that can be completed in an online setting without compromising requirements or significant loss. The absolute easiest ones are chess merit badge and finger printing. Plant identification. Many others. ... It's more about being creative.

I hugely agree. Example: 2nd class 3B five mile hike ... The new statement drops the word "TAKE". Take the hike. I can plan any hike in two minutes. Actually taking the hike takes real time, sweat and energy. How can you drop the word "TAKE" ? ... One of my son's said can't they at least use a treadmill ? So BSA is an outdoor program emphasizing physical fitness and doing things the scout has never done ... but you never need to leave your chair ?

BSA does not cleanly define "virtual" and what BSA is implying. There is a brief statement: "Even when using video conferencing, all virtual campouts and activities should consist of as many elements found on a normal outdoor campout or activity as possible." Example: Tenderfoot 1B ... patrol camp out. ... BSA says virtual campouts are acceptable. BSA fails to emphasize ... choose a spot to camp ... pitch a tent ... sleep outside in the tent you pitch ... schedule camp out activities ... create a menu ... acquire food ... pack your gear and pack the food ... light a fire ... have cracker barrel ... SLEEP IN THE TENT ... OUTSIDE ..., cook breakfast ... execute the activities plan ... pack up the tent ... practice leave no trace ... Perhaps BSA should say it's a real camp-out with online coordination? Scout to regularly check-in during the "sleep out" with their PL. PL with their SPL. SPL with their SM. BSA should clarify if every parent needs to complete G2SS. Who's the adult leader watching the kid outside start the fire, light the stove, sleep outside by-themselves? Or is G2SS not an issue as the scout is under the parent's observation? Does the parent know fire / stove / weather safety? Is the neighborhood safe or will teenage neighbors mess with the kid? Does the parent need to pitch their own tent? Or is it not a real camp out? Does "virtual" mean "pretend" or "make believe?" People will see "VIRTUAL" as easy and quick. BSA needs to emphasize that similar effort / commitment / requirements / preparation / work / GROWTH needs to happen. I also see no reason BSA had to modify the requirements. SM's always had flexibility to interpret if the scout fulfilled the requirements. It's part of the game of scouting. Over the phone? Pictures as evidence? Similar enough to be the same? All scout leaders have been doing that for years. For example, Tenderfoot 7a flag etiquette. The scout could always video conference and perform it with another in his house while showing someone who could sign off on it. PROBLEM is "virtual camp outs" are not camp outs. But perhaps real camp-outs coordinated via SMS and video conferencing could be effectively the same. PROBLEM is 2nd class 5B / 5C. BSA is not waiving passing the beginner's swimming test, but adding words about 5C being able to be done on dry land? How does that help? It just adds confusion. The scout is still blocked by 5B (swimming test) ... AND 5C never said it had to be done in water. There are whole summer camps that passed 5C on dry land. Preference water, but it had been done repeatedly. PROBLEM is PARENTS will see virtual and push their kids to first class with a very very watered down result. It already happens all the time. By publishing as BSA has done, it will create a HUGE headache for SMs. Are these requirement changes? Guidance? What are these words? What is virtual? I'm just really confused. More context should be given. BSA should have published open-to-all guidance for scoutmaster how the existing requirements could be worked or fulfilled. I fear we now have a real MUSH. Now, we need a daily clean-up / change-list to track as this is cleaned up.

It doesn't work. Scouts will absolutely miss learning the details during the requirements. Once missed, it's too late. Also what do you do later? Hold them back on something not related? That's not fair. Demand they participate in the coming 5 mile hike? If they don't attend, you have no recourse. My view is the requirements are a tool to drive the real benefit of scouting: the fellowship, working together and solving issues while trying to do something real. While the requirements are the requirements, they have never been the value statement of scouting. The value is learning to work together in uncomfortable situations.

It's been hard for me to recognize as it doesn't match my personality, but scouts like bling and recognition. The Forestburg Herritage Trail medal is cool. When our troop was small ... if we camped at a state or national park or somewhere that had a site patch ... I'd buy the scouts the patch for that park and give it to them when we leave. It was a cool and reasonably cheap memory. ... I wanted to get our troop to do something similar for all camp outs. Having something to point our achievements is important. Perhaps it would have been better to hand out those patches at the COH, but I was thinking immediate memory was nice.

Wow. That's great. My wife and I chatted about summer camp for our youngest son. We just see no way it's going to happen this year. We're hoping next year will happen. I'm glad our local scouting professionals can get financial help as all revenue will disappear.

My apologies. Conversation threads tend to drift. I did not mean to infer anything wrong specifically with your question. I was addressing a more general discussion topic. Please accept my apologies. We as volunteered are always committed to doing right by our scouts and tend to be very invested. So when a scout asks such a question, we want to help. Your question actually reflects well on you as a leader. It's a general comment about BSA advancement that became the discussion point.

Qwazse ... I generally agree with your post. ... BUT ... it's more than questioning scout's motives. I regularly see the same thing stated in the original post. Worse, I often see leaders doing the same thing. BAJ said in the original post: "We have a few scouts who were looking for service opportunities to get service hours for rank before COVID hit. ..." I agree, but would keep something about service as we value service. Perhaps similar to requirements about scout spirit. A statement that scouts value service and asking the scout to explain how the scout fulfills that value. I often wonder if we should simplify the requirements as it's just too many words for scouts. Seriously. In my work, the "quality" processes were defined using policies, standards, processes, procedures and a level overview. I wonder if requirements should be re-formatted / re-structured to reflect that. Scout facing Level Overview ... One or two sentences for every rank. What do we generally expect of a 2nd class scout? First class scout? These would be in the scout handbook at the start of the rank. Policy ... These are the requirements the scout sees in his handbook. Leader facing Standard ... This would be in the leaders handbook to help clarify what we should expect of the scout. Similar to a process auditor that has guidelines on what to expect and what to look. Hours Not a math measurement. Not an accounting spreadsheet. Should scale to roughly ## hours for tenderfoot, ## hours for 2nd class, ## hours for first class. But don't keep a spreadsheet. Focus on valuing the service Focus on encouraging service and not using it as a gate. Procedure for evaluating ... required or expecting Process for evaluating ... required or expecting

I'm very uncomfortable about this. We are leaders represent an organization. Our organization STRONGLY ADVISES no activities. That doesn't mean leaders suggest a parent/child go out own their own to do it. The leader should say we don't advise it. Stay at home. https://www.scouting.org/scoutingathome/ Until things change, the best service scouts can do is staying home and helping at home. Period. If a parent/child want to get groceries and deliver them to a neighbor-in-need, that's their choice. And we should applaud it. BUT, we should not organize or advocate for it. We should not even suggest it. In the above example, the buck thorn will still be there six months or a year from now. Do that type of service then. If a family wants to do it own their own, that's their choice. But, we as leaders should not organize, suggest or advocate for it. Our message should be clear, consistent and follow BSA's guidance. Stay home. Stay safe.