Eamonn

As I read this, I got the feeling that I was missing something. I of course wasn't there, I don't know any of the people involved or if there is more to this? Still I can't help feeling that there is more to this than just a comment about washing a few pots. Nearly all the members of this forum care about the Scouts we serve and are willing to go through hell and high water for them. We know that we are not perfect and are sometimes wrong. We know that some adults who serve are likewise. I for one am unwilling to jump in and pass any sort of a judgment on the Troop or the adults who serve the Troop based on what has been posted here. Thinking back. My son, who really isn't a bad Lad, was and still does very quick to pass judgment on others, especially adults. One adult he for some reason? Just didn't like and went out of his way to find fault with was Jack who serves as our Assistant SE, who also serves as the Reservation Director at our Council Summer Camp. I know Jack very well, we have been friends since I spent my second night in the USA on his sofa back in 1977. Sure Jack has his days and his ways, but he knows his job, he really does care about the Scouts and is a nice guy. Still my son just doesn't like him. Going so far as to make sure that he goes out when we invite Jack over for dinner! I have tried talking to my son, explaining that Jack isn't such a bad guy. But my kid has dug his heels in and is being very mule headed (Wonder where he gets that from??) My son worked at summer camp for four or five years with Jack as his boss. He was overly quick to put Jack down for anything and everything which didn't go the way he (My son.) thought they should go, even things that Jack had no control over. Thankfully Jack has a daughter who is about a year older than my son. She is also very headstrong. So both Jack and I were able to compare notes and laugh about what our kids were up to and the way they were acting. For my part. Other than talking with my son about him not being fair, I opted to do nothing. The way I see it is that he learned a lot from working for someone he didn't like. Chances are that as he goes through life he is going to have to get on with people he might not like or maybe not respect. My boss (Who I like and do get on with.) Is ten years younger than I am and isn't as well qualified as I am. But he has been with the department for a very long time. We both respect each other and have open lines of communication. I offer my take on what is going on, what we are doing well and not so well. Sometimes he goes along with my take and sometimes he doesn't. My feeling is that whatever he does is down to him. He after all is the boss and the buck will stop with him. 5scoutmom, I think if I were in your shoes. I'd sit down with my son and with pen and paper at hand write down a list of what your options are. Then from that list have your son choose which one is the one that you both are going to go with. You as the parent might want to let him know that life isn't always as fair as we'd maybe like it to be and that there are lessons to be learned from sometimes biting the bullet. He might opt to stay and work things out or he might opt to move to another unit? It is important for his well being that you let him make the choice. Maybe it's also time you tell him that he made this bed and allow him to lie on it? Sooner or later he is going to have to learn to stand on his own two feet. Eamonn.

Soon after I made my First Confession in the R/C Church, I was told that having evil thoughts was a sin. If this is really the case then I know I'm a lot case and that come what may I'm never going to be cold in the hereafter. I might be running late for an appointment and might think that I need to speed and break the speed limit. But until I do? No harm no foul. A big part of jokes and pranks is in the knowing the person who is being joked or pranked. Then there is how far it goes. We have a co-worker who keeps a big bottle of what is either corn starch or talc in the bathroom at work. I tease him all the time that one day I'm going to add itching powder to it. The idea of him scratching and itching is kinda funny to me. Would I ever do it? Of course not. I'm not so sure about some of my other co-workers. But I was the person who came up with the idea. Am I guilty? As you can imagine working in a jail one thing we need to be very careful with is our keys. We keep them on our person at all times. A co-worker accidentally left his keys on a desk. Our boss found them and didn't say anything he picked them up and took them into his office. The guy who lost them spent a few minutes frantically looking for them. Not very funny, but the guy will be more careful with his keys in the future. Sure a lot of jokes and pranks are at the expense of others. But to go so far as to "Outlaw" all jokes and pranks is to my mind over the top. I've seen some really great pranks which have been told and retold around campfires for years. One was pulled on Old Pete Rice, a wonderful old Scouter. Our council camp still has some of the old outhouses. A couple of Scouts climbed on the roof. Pete stopped in for a pee. One of the Scouts yelled down a pipe that went through the roof, "Help! I've fallen in!" Poor old Pete was left looking down the hole asking if the Lad was OK and where he was. Sure we can say that the Scouts ought not be climbing on the roofs of out-houses. We can say that it wasn't very kind to set Pete up like this. We could I suppose go so far as to say "What if? What if he'd called 911? What if he'd got the Ranger and they went down into the nasty hole? But they didn't. And bottom line is that it is funny and Pete took in as being funny. - Knowing Pete as I did I'll bet what he called these pranksters wasn't very Scout-like! At Summer Camp, my son was the SPL for his Troop. One Scout who was born and breed in the next small town looks kinda Hispanic. When the DE came to do her weekly camp visit. OJ had this Lad wearing a big sombrero and a blanket, The Lad looked like something out of a spaghetti western. The DE is and was one of my closest friends knew OJ well, but OJ introduced this Lad as a new Scout who had just moved from Mexico. The DE of course tried to talk with this new "Mexican Scout" in Spanish, but found that it just wasn't working! OJ, the DE along with the new "Mexican Scout toured the camp with the DE introducing the Lad as having just moved from Mexico. When the DE found out. She was a little embarrassed and jokingly threatened OJ. But she seen that she had been taken for a ride and thought it was funny. Even at Wood Badge, my mentor, who is also my best friend and very proud of his Slovak heritage, seen the fun when one day for lunch we served him a big plate of cabbage and kielbasa and entertained him with the "Dancing babushka girls". Maybe it wasn't PC, but everyone seen the fun and Mike was not in the least up set. One thing I have tried to teach my son and the Scouts I have served is S.T.A.R. Stop Think Act Reflect. Of course it doesn't always happen. Some things are fun and funny to take them out of Scouting would be a big shame! Eamonn.

I was SM of a Troop that I felt got too big. We went from 0 to 30 in about two years then from 30 to 60 tow years later and by year 7 we had over 90 Scouts. Communication was never a really big problem as the Troop met three times a week. Friday Night was Troop Night and more often than not at least part of the Troop would take off to go to camp after the meeting. (We got really good at putting up tents in the dark) Wednesday Night was games night, we opened up the Scout Hall and the Scouts played indoor soccer, table tennis, board games, just hang out. Some did some work on badges and Scouting skills, some planned menus for the weekend and some just hung out in the kitchen with the adults for a while. Thursday Night was swimming night, we rented the local pool. The only night Scouts were expected to show up was Friday night, Troop Night. PLC's were not so much about sitting down as doing activities that the Troop would be doing over the next month. Easter Camp which was a week long was only for youth leaders, if possible at where we would be camping that Summer. Even then we had about 15 Scouts in attendance. Of course this was in the UK. Where at that time there wasn't as many after school activities. It was an inner-city Troop where parents were happy that Scouts was a full time activity. The "Downfall"?? of the Troop was me! I started to burn out. It seemed to me that after a while everything that we were doing was stuff that we had done before, but it was still almost like a full time job. After the tenth year I got married and while HWMBO was very supportive and willing to tolerate my being out almost every night of the week. It just became too much for me. We decided to split the Troop. Which just didn't work. I was very lucky in that I had four and sometimes five ASM's who were almost as crazy as I was. I'm not sure if there is an ideal number for a Troop. I found that it was just as hard keeping a small number active and interested as it was a large number. But once we got above 60 Scouts, I had a hard time really getting to know the younger and newer Scouts. Eamonn.

I do agree that we shouldn't get caught up in "Titles" Life for me isn't that hard. It's a lot easier to just go with what is acceptable behavior and what isn't. Even then life isn't always that easy. I was working with a group of African-American inmates. They were using the "N" word calling each other that name. They were a little confused when I asked them not to use it. They argued it was OK for them, but it wouldn't be OK for me. I argued that I didn't like it and would prefer they not use it. I seen the use of that word as just being wrong, no matter who used it. As a young Scout I was a member of a Troop that had a very nasty initiation ceremony. Of course the adults didn't participate, but they seemed willing to turn a blind eye and certainly knew it was happening. If I'm reading what Barry posted right? I do think that we the adults do set the tone for what goes on in the Troops we serve. I enjoy a good joke and what might be called a prank. Sadly most jokes and pranks do require a "Fall Guy" Or the need to put someone down. Over the years I've done enough dumb stuff, that pals of mine have enough material that they can tell war stories around the campfire for a week. Very often these get a little embellished and at times larger than life. I'm a big boy and can take it. I also know that these guys are my friends and that no harm is intended, they also know that I'm not going to get upset. Dealing with situations like the one posted here can be hard. It seems clear to me that all the Lads involved failed to live up to the Scout Oath and Law. I kinda think they all knew that from the get go. I'll bet that they all thought it was a fine prank when they were going about setting it up. Thankfully the intended victim didn't drink whatever was in the bottle. Still those involved failed to think it all the way through. This failure is common in young people. Not ever acceptable, but common. I really don't think we can ever have a set of rules or by-laws that could ever cover every situation. Each and every situation is different and needs to be looked at as it stands. I'm not sure I'd call 14 year olds "Older Scouts" I think if the guys who had planned this had been 16 or 17 things might be different for me. I do agree that unacceptable behavior is just that unacceptable and everyone needs to know that it is unacceptable. Which brings us to the consequences that are needed for the actions. While we could dwell on what might have happened? I think it is worth remembering that nothing did happen. No one was harmed. The victim didn't drink whatever was in the bottle. I do think that the 14 year olds having a little Lad do their dirty work for them shows a lacking of responsibility and any sort of real leadership. If I were the SM I would have to think long and hard about asking them to step down from any POR that they might hold. Even if this meant not holding the POR slowed down their plans for advancement. I'm not big on this "Write as essay" idea. But I do think maybe the Troop through the PLC might want to look at the dangers that can come from bodily fluids and look at the dangers and harm that pranks and practical jokes can result in. I'm not a big fan of suspensions or in most cases kicking Lads out as I believe that we can do more good working with a Lad who is around than when he isn't. However there are some little toads who just don't get it and sadly there comes a time when the best thing for the Troop is to have the COR agree to let them go. Eamonn.

" the IT firms that transmit electronic health records and the like. No readin' of that law could possibly make the BSA or a BSA unit subject to the Act as a business associate." Seem to remember that there was a lot of fuss about how at the 2005 Jambo there was a lot of fuss about the electronic transmissions of participants health records. Ea.

I was a Assistant Food Service Director, my boss the Food Service Director's office was behind mine. To get to him you had to go through me and my office. A meat salesman, making a sales call arrived one day. While he was waiting he was trying to feel me out, asking what sort of chap my boss was? I said that he was a very nice fellow and the only bad thing was that he was very deaf and refused to admit it or wear a hearing aid. In fact he was very touchy about it. (My boss was not at all deaf.) The salesman went into the inner office. For the next 45 minutes he was yelling at my boss about how cheap his sausages were and how great his meat was. I was in stitches. When the salesman left, my boss came out and went on about how this guy had yelled at him for the last hour. In the end I did fess-up. Eamonn

Hi and Welcome. I'm firmly with Kahuna on this one. The forum has visited this a lot over the past couple of years. It seems that there is very little middle ground. Some members are 100% against anything that isn't rope powered. While others are trying to accommodate 21st century technology. My son is soon to be 22, but for the past six or seven years he feels undressed without his cell phone. Mine sits in the car and every-time I need to use it, I can't because it needs charged. Eamonn

Most of the Lads I have known that are Scouts are really great kids. They want to do the right thing and are very agar to do their best to please the adults who work with them and for them. But they are kids. Just because a Lad puts on a Scout uniform doesn't by any means make or turn him into an Angel. It is very important that we adults go out of our way to find the things that they (Scouts.) Do right or do well and we praise them for it. A little smile and a "Good Job" Or "Well Done!" Goes a very long way. Over time each of us develops our own way of how we manage the Scouts we serve. I know some really good leaders who when pushed will start yelling and shouting. I'm way too lazy for any of that! I tend to have a set of "Looks". Which over time the Scouts all get to know and read. When a Scout does mess up, it is worth the time to bring him over for a little chat. The art of the "Little Chat" is having him do nearly all the talking. Some adults do seem to have a very hard time listening. Ask open-ended questions, find out why? He is acting the way he is. Many times Scouts get the idea that we are not being fair and are maybe picking on them. Sometimes they are right. It takes a great leader to be able to admit this to a Scout. People wiser than I am might be able to explain, that sometimes them acting up is some kind of a "Power Game". They want to see how far they can push and how much they can get away with. (I get this a lot from the inmates in the jail.) When this is happening I let it be known that I'm not playing these silly games and point out that I expect to be treated the same way as I treat them. I respect them, I don't call anyone names, I don't put people down (OK sometimes I joke around.) It is worth remembering that kids join Scouts to have fun. If the program is not fun and isn't challenging they will get bored and act up. I have visited Troops where the end of the meeting drags on and on. Announcements seem to never end. It is no wonder the Scouts are ready to play up! Heck I felt like joining them! We are in the business of trying to get Scouts to do the right thing, just because it's the right thing to do. (My take on all the Ethical Choice Stuff.) Do we really want Scouts to do the right thing out of fear? I would hope not. No, it's not easy, but it is worth the effort. Eamonn.

Just when HWMBO was getting used to me doing stuff around the house! Ea.

SequoiaWDL, I'm not fond of generalizations. I have friends who are lawyers and a sister who is a barrister. A couple of numbskull's where I work at times try and tease me by saying that "Scoutmasters like playing with little boys." I have only read the story that is on MSN.com. Which doesn't go into much detail. However it does seem that these files do exist. I'm not sure if the argument that the BSA has really holds water? It sounds as if the LDS Church have settled with this fellow. Maybe, it might have been a good idea if the BSA had also reached a settlement? I don't in anyway blame the attorney for doing the best job that he can for his client, I would hope if I were involved in a lawsuit that my attorney would do much the same thing. We as members of the BSA might like to think that our organization can do no wrong. I for one, do not think this for a minute. Eamonn.

I do think that congratulations are in order. When I'm in one of my preaching moods! I very often tell anyone who hasn't ran for cover, that we only ever get out of anything, what we put in. I'm no longer that active in our Lodge. When I first became a member, I enjoyed the fellowship and the social side of the Lodge. However it seemed to me that you had to have a PhD in construction, in order to be a "Real Lodge Member" - I'm not that handy or good with tools. It wasn't until I really started working with the Scouts in the Lodge, that I really got a handle on what being a OA member was really all about. We still have the hard working guys, without whom the camp would be not as good as it is. Sadly, some of these guys do feel that the Scouts are Free Labor and go on about how they need to do more for he camp. But there is a lot more to the OA than just pouring cement! I wish you a long and wonderful membership. The OA does a lot for the Scouts who put a lot in. Eamonn.

" Oh and the good news is you know this officer by name, it is "Sir". " This made me smile! As a young Lad, all the masters at school called us by our last names. I never really liked it. When Scouts would call me "Sir". I would as a joke tell them that as yet I haven't been knighted. When they would call me "Mr ...." I would tell them that he was my Dad. Now I work in a place where the inmates are expected to call me either "Sir" Or "Mr. ...." I do wear a name-plate with Mr. E.O. W... on it. A lot of the inmates have tried guessing what the E stands for. So far not one has got it right. I wonder why? Eamonn.

Stosh, While I don't disagree with most of what you posted. I was thinking along the lines of skills that are needed for the young fellow who in a few years will be married and who will share in the running of a home. About a year or so back, I went for some training, learning what our department would do in the case of a pandemic. Some of what was said was really scary! Many of the things we take for granted might just not be available. It took a 60% absentee number. This meant that many of the stores would be shut and the goods to the stores wouldn't be delivered. Gas stations wouldn't be open, banks might not be able to keep up with what they do and so on. The thing I found really scary was what we might have to do with all the dead bodies, if there was no one to take care of them! We seem to have been very lucky that the flu we just had wasn't really that bad, but from talking with people who are supposed to know about this stuff?? It seems no longer a "If" this is going to happen but a "When". I was living in the UK when the coal miners went on strike. We had power cuts and went to a 3 day work week for a while. While everyone seemed to manage it was a real pain. I was in Holland when the oil shortage was going on and they banned driving on a Sunday. It was strange walking down the main highways with no cars or trucks. Even here in the USA after 9/11 when all the planes were grounded the sky seemed empty without the planes and there was an eerie silence. What happens after "The Big One?" Seems to have become a common work in science fiction works. The recent big snows in the area where I live left some of my co-workers without power for as long as five days. Everyone seemed to do OK, in part because it didn't effect a very large area and people could go elsewhere to do what was needed, either staying with friends or using friends to get things. I like to think that I'd be in good shape if there was a crisis. But the truth is I have become very dependent on all the stuff we have today. My emergency generator works great, but what happens when the gas pumps are unable to pump the gas needed to run it? Sure I have a stock pile of water, but it wouldn't last forever. Eamonn.

Amazon has a fairly good selection, but they are not cheap! Might be a hard sell for some parents. Ea.

Thinking about the posts that deal with Killing for Food. Back in the day we did the, what might be called "Survival Cooking" Scuff. Dressing and cooking different birds, skinning rabbits and all that good stuff. I don't see any harm in it, as long as the Scouts don't get carried away and the local birds and neighborhood cats remain safe. All of this got me thinking about how much things have changed and what "Skills" a Lad might need in the 21st Century. I might add that I was raised in a home where my Mother was a stay at home Mum. She did "Womans work" and ran the home while my Dad was the bread winner. Here is my list for starters. Please feel free to add to it. Laundry Without everything coming out that nice shade of pink! Being able to cook a complete holiday meal from scratch, using only real, fresh ingredients. Being able to feed and change a baby. Fix ordinary everyday appliances. Like the vacuum cleaner when it gets stuffed up with dog hair! Or the furnace when it runs out of heating oil and needs to be re-lit. Able to sew a button on a shirt. Keep track of money and an understanding of how money and banks work. (I was going to say balance a check book, but with so much banking now being done on line, that might seem out of date?) Why paying what you owe on time is important, along with how to live within a budget. How things work in the area where you live. Such things as who to call when the State plows the roads and your unable to get out of your driveway! Who to call to find out if your allowed to water your lawn or burn yard waste. Clean the house. I could go on. But this is a start. Ea.

" I think it's high time for a moderator to end this!" Talking as a moderator. I'm not all together sure that just because a thread gets "Big" that is a good enough reason to close it? If and when people stop posting in the thread it will go away, until such a time as someone resurrects it! Talking as a forum member. I didn't post in that thread. I have read most of it. It does have some good in it, which maybe at some later date someone might need. Ea. (This message has been edited by Eamonn)

My good friend Barry has over the past few weeks got my little gray cells working in overdrive. As I hope he knows, I do respect him and do hope one day we can get the opportunity to meet. I hope that I would never, ever put anyone down for whatever religion they hold as being their own or the values (To a point.) That they hold dear. One great thing about being an adult in Scouting for me is that over the years I have felt safe. I know that when I attend a Scouting event that the other people there will share very similar values to the ones that I hold. We might not have them in the same order. That is to say I might think that being kind is more important than say being reverent is. Values are very important to me. They shape just about everything I do, not just as a person in Scouting but as a person. I'm not wise enough or clever enough to know for sure where all my values came from. I can say that I know my parents and early childhood played a big part, so did my education and my being raised as a member of the Roman Catholic church. I can't ever remember really ever talking about values with my parents. Things were the way they were just because thats the way things were! They were both very devout Catholics, they seemed to me to be happy to accept the teachings of the church without question. My Dad always voted for the Labour Party, while my Mother was a true blue Tory. Both were from large families, Dad one of seven and Mum one of eight. Some things were never ever discussed at home. I never really knew anything about our family finances, sex was never talked about. Adults did their thing and kids did their thing. I'm four years younger than my older brother and seven years older than my youngest sister. So "Adult Conversations" just didn't happen. When I first went to college I joined the Young Socialists. At that time I really did think that Socialism was the way to go and I seen the ideals of Socialism as being very close to what I seen as being true Christianity. I was more into the theory than what was being passed off as Socialism. For a while I turned my back on my religion. Looking back I think this had more to do with my parents willingness to just accept it without question than any real thought out reason on my part. Today I'm more willing to accept that there are things that are a mystery and are beyond my comprehension. I like to think of myself as not being a bad fellow! I do at times get mixed up. For example I'm never sure when HWMBO asks "Does this make me look fat?" If I should be kind and say "Of course not" Or be truthful and run the risk of what might happen. -Most times I choose to tell a lie! I really dislike any form or type of violence. OJ thinks it's funny that I don't go to horror movies and close my eyes when anyone is getting shot or beaten up on TV. Yet for work I'm trained in a lot of ways that will hurt others and given the situation I'm trained and expected to kill another human. I of course pray that the day never comes. I'm on a Hostage Negotiation Team, where I might have to talk someone into being in a place where our sharp shooters can take a shot. I have looked and thought long and hard about this and I do think I'm willing and able to do this. A lot of things I look at are things I know would not be right for me. Some things are just out and out wrong. But there are things which while I know I'd never do I can see maybe reasons why others might. There are things and values that I know I have had a change of heart about over the years. While I try to be a good Catholic, I'm no longer sure that the Pope is always right. In Scouting I still believe that what we (I) do is very worth while. At times I think the "Powers That Be" do tend to lose sight of what this is all about. There has been and more than lightly always will be mismanagement at the local and National levels. Still I'm happy to move on with the ideals of what we are about as my guide. While I happy for everyone who is less mixed up than I am. I do at times think not having all the answers does help me help the Scouts I work with. I can explain that at the end of the day only I know if what I have done was the right or wrong way and that sometimes the gray areas make this hard. They each need to think about what is right or what is wrong for them. None of us get it right all the time, but we learn from when we are or were wrong. I would add that I didn't put this in the area about Politics. I hope it doesn't became an exchange about God in Scouting or gays. Eamonn.

I'm still a little lost! I work for the State. In the Department of Corrections. It costs about $67.00 a day to keep these bad guys in a correctional facility. There is no discrimination about the people who get locked up. Sure we have male and female facilities, but we lock up people of different ages, colors and creeds. We do have paid Chaplin's. We allow inmates to practice the religion of their choice. This at times costs the tax payers of PA money, be it for the time spent ensuring that religious volunteers who come into the facility are searched or for the overtime that is needed to ensure that Muslin inmates are fed during the feast of Ramadan. Or the meals for Jewish inmates. The bottom line is that we just don't discriminate. Sure the guy who asked for a big hammer and a large knife because he belonged to some religion that had Thor in it didn't get his request granted. He is now suing the State! The local R/C Priest is of course free to walk down the public highway saying his rosary. He isn't free to use public funds to build a statue of the Virgin Mary on public lands. In another thread someone described Health Care as a product. From my point of view many of the products we use in our daily lives have in some way been "Interfered with" by the government. Most in a good way! I like the idea of knowing that the food I eat is safe, the drugs I take have been tested, the police are doing their job and people like me are keeping people safe by locking up the bad guys. Eamonn.

"Can a citizen be forced by law to purchase a product" A lot would depend on how you view a product? Is Education a product? How about Security? I really have no idea how much of the money I pay in taxes is used for things that I either know next to nothing about or things that if I were given the choice I'd opt not to support. Having said that, at the end of the day don't we all hope that the people that are elected to represent us do just that? Sure the guy or the guys you wanted to win may not have won. But that's just the way things go. I have got lost in all the different plans, bills and whatever that has come out on Health Care. Everyone, both Democrats and Republicans seem to agree that what we have in place now needs to be fixed. As of this minute I'm maybe the wrong person to ask! I'm happy with what I've got and I'm reluctant to see it changed. But being as I'm not as young as I used to be, I know that in about ten or so years from now my situation will change. But again I'm lucky knowing that I when I do retire I can keep my Health Care benefits. A perk that I know a lot of people don't have. I never knew of anything other that what Americans call "Socialized Medicine" Being born and bred in the UK with National Health just being the accepted way that things were done. I lived here in the States before we even heard of such things as HMO's and PTO's. I seen where the National Health care failed, I seen the way people abused health care before the HMO and PTO plans came along. Whatever the fix turns out to be? I kinda feel it's not going to be an easy fix and it is going to be expensive. How expensive? I don't know. I do know that apart from what I pay toward my health care plan each month, my employer (In my case the State.) pays $800 a month. The Union I'm a member of is pushing so that I don't have to pay anything and do away with all co-payments. I don't see us getting that! (One union does already have such benefits!) While I do at times fall into the "I'm alright Jack" frame of mind, I do look at my son who is working full time, but is classed as a part time worker for a company that doesn't offer Health Insurance. He is only earning about $10.00 an hour and can't afford his own coverage. Worse still is that he works for a company where they get most of their income from Health Insurance companies. God forbid that he would come down with something, not only would it drive him into bankruptcy, but chances are if it were a serious condition no company would insure him at a later date. He'd dearly love to buy this "Product" But when the product would cost more than 50% of what he earns he just can't afford it. If he did become seriously ill the bills would come in, not at the reduced rate that the insurance companies pay, but for the full amount. He would be unable to pay them. So who wins? Eamonn.

You lost me! What are you asking? Ea.

Have never been that keen on statements like " The Foundation of Scouting" Scouting's foundation are found in the ideals of Scouting. Sure all the methods are important, but for me what makes them work? Are the adult volunteers who are able to work well together, willing to give up their time and use their imagination. Sure it can be said that there wouldn't be any Scouts without boys, but the boys would have a real hard time pulling it all together without the adults. Ea (I thought I'd posted this a few hours back, but it seems to have gone??)

" then Cough Syrup at 25% alcohol would not be allowed on Camp property" Kinda think if my kid was slurping down cough syrup in vast quantities, I'd have second thoughts about allowing him to go to camp. Ea.

Can't help but think that the Pack Committee Chair was out of line. A Pack Committee should never have voted on something that clearly just isn't allowed. This seems very much like the very long threads we have had in the past about Paintball and Lazar Tag. While of course any parent or group of parents who want to get together and do an activity are free to do it (Long as it's not against the law!). The problem becomes "Is this a Scouting activity or not?" I think that the Pack should distance itself as far away from this as possible. The COR and the CO need to be made aware what is going on. If I were the CM or Pack Committee Chair. I'd ask for something in writing from the CO that states that the CO has nothing to do with this. The Pack should not issue any sort of a disclaimer, by doing so the Pack is saying that it is aware that what they are doing is wrong. It should be made very clear to all the parents that the Pack is not involved and has no part in this. Parents can organize and do organize lots of activities that are outside of Scouting. Back when OJ was a little fellow we used to have a Bar-B-Que, which a lot of our friends who had sons in the Pack attended. There was adult beverages for the adults and we had archery set up. This wasn't a Pack activity it was me having a cook out in my back yard. As bad ideas go? This one is bad. Ea.

Your "Friend" does need to make sure that he doesn't come off sounding like a know it all, who is out to make waves. If this has been going on for a very long time? He could make a lot of enemies. One thing he might run into is that someone will say "They do it!" They being the Council. I know in the Council I serve this would be true. I've attended a lot of Council fund raising dinners and golf outings where raffles for big prizes have been held and 50/50 drawings are the norm. I'm not sure this is a fight that I'd want to get involved in. - But that's just me. Ea.

I know this sounds like I'm splitting hairs, but we don't recruit volunteers we select them. Working with the Troop Committee a list of what help you really need, should be made. Then looking at this list see what people are available and pair up the best person for that specific job. Then make an appointment to visit with this person. Let him or her know that they have been selected by the Committee for this job, explain all the duties and responsibilities along with the expectations. If the only real problem seems to be transportation maybe renting a couple of 15 seater vans is an answer? The cost when split 15 ways is not that great. Eamonn.