Eamonn

If the Pack has a Pack Committee? They are the people who need to take this on. Reading what was posted, it kinda seems to me that Family 1, seem to be between a rock and a hard place. Someone has taken delivery of the popcorn and not paid them. I think given a little time they will do the right thing. Sadly I don't think that is the case with family 2. While I'm not in favor of trying to make an example of people, Ed is right and after the committee sends them an official letter requesting payment, which lets them know that if they don't pay what is owed the Pack will have no choice but to hand this over to a JP or a debt collector. I'm a very nice person, but I never ever make idle threats and I keep my promises. Having someone who is not a youth leader deal with this also means that the youth leaders are not really involved. In fact in my view it is better if they are not involved. While the parents might have made a mess of things, the Cub Scouts have done nothing wrong, kicking them out or suspending them seems unfair to me. Den Leaders are charged with delivering the program not kicking kids out for whatever sins their parents might have committed. Chances are that the Pack is going to lose one family. But it is better if the family decides to quit than what I see as unfairly removing a kid who is blameless. Ea.

"Or maybe, what was the coolest thing that happened to you during scouting?" I met HWMBO and she was silly enough to marry me! (Not only the "Coolest" thing but also the most expensive thing! -Next week we celebrate our 27th Wedding Anniversary) Eagle92 Glad that the boys back home took good care of you. -Hope you discovered what real cheese and real ale is all about! Ea.

I like to think and hope that we should be able to provide the kids that join. Fun. Adventure. New Challenges. Some units do a wonderful job of this. Some not so wonderful and sadly some not at all. Scouting happens at the unit level and it becomes the job of the adults to allow the youth to participate in activities that are challenging, fun and adventurous. For my part, I really don't care if a Troop is 100% fully uniformed, allows or doesn't allow electronic devices or if most of the members are right or left handed. Let's say that we can and do provide a wonderful program that meets the fun, adventure and challenges. We are left with the other good stuff. The aim of the Scouting is to build youth into quality citizens by: Building Character Fostering Citizenship Promoting Fitness. The fitness bit more than lightly would be covered by the things that we do. If we cast aside the:Fostering Citizenship and Building Character What are we left with? Do we become just a club that provides fun and adventure? Do we ever want to become that club? The USA can and should be proud that over the past 100 years it has become the size it is, has the resources and facilities that it has. Change for the sake of change is not always a good thing. We only have to look back at the "New Coke" to see that. Remaining relevant and attractive is however something we need to aware of. Most polls I have seen are here today and gone tomorrow, at best they give a snapshot of what is going on at that point in time. They do not provide a plan of action. That plan should be outlined in the long term strategic plan. Sadly when I look back at the last long term strategic plan, I see a plan that might have looked great on the page but lacked any real substance, I see goals that had more to do with finance than aiding in the delivery of the program and getting the program out to more youth members. I don't need a poll to know that the kids we serve are learning stuff I didn't learn, they are being taught it in a very different way. The family today is not the same as it used to be. In the area where I live the jobs that people used to do have gone and will never come back. There seems to be far less people who work Monday -Friday 9-5. In a good many families there has been a shift. Mum is now the person who is the big bread winner. Mum is now in control of the family finances. A good side of this is that Dad is more actively involved in raising the kids. (My father never changed a diaper in his life. -Me? I'm a great little diaper changer!) I don't know about others? But at times I feel that I'm being force fed a lot of stuff from the media. Five years back if someone had asked me about my "Carbon Foot-print"? I would have had no idea what the heck they were talking about. Now for a week even the NBC peacock went green for a week. One of my co-workers who watches soap operas was going on how on his favorite soap there were two guys in bed deep kissing. It seem that every reality show has one gay guy or one gay team on it. - OK -Already! I get the message! All of this stuff leaves a mark. Some marks remain some just come and go as fast as they came. I know that back when OJ was a very little fellow and we watched Barney, the kids who sang and danced along side of this dinosaur, who for some unknown reason the ice age missed in order to make my life miserable were picked with a diverse mix in mind. You bet I sat there and sang along with the "I love you, you love me" song. Why? Because I thought it would help my kid in later life. Barney seems to have stood the test of time. On the other hand Pokmon, who had me standing outside of Toys-R-Us in the rain came and went and for the most part is now forgotten. I don't want any changes that might be made to be "Pokmon Changes". Eamonn.

Being as this is a Scouting site, maybe I ought not post that being from England I was used to using two fingers to show my displeasure with others. When I first moved States-side I knew that it was only one finger. One day I was driving and someone did something that upset me, so I put the "Bird" to work. Bad thing was I was using the wrong finger! After that I just took to swearing under my breath. After 25 years I never mastered the bird and still at times have a problem with the wrong way Americans date things. Ea. 16/1/2010

SctDad, I work with gang members and ex-gang members everyday. You would be far better off looking at tattoos and graffiti than looking for signs. Most gang signs are used in jail as a method of communication between gang members who hope that the correction officers either can't see or is aware of what is happening. While gangs are different in different parts of the US. Here in PA. The department of corrections is at present tracking 2 African-American Gangs, 3 Hispanic gangs, 2 gangs of White supremacists along with a very nasty Motor-cycle gang. Learning to read and understand the meanings of street graffiti (Tags) And body art will at the end of the day keep you and your team a lot safer than trying to understand signs. The gangs that are believed to be the most organized are the Hispanic gangs. (The Latin Kings.) Many of kids Scout age are listening to Gangsta Rap. A lot of this stuff seems to be more about shock value than anything else. It kinda peaked a few years back and while still around is not as popular (Even with young African-Americans) as it once was. Just as everyone who rides a motor-cycle, wears colors and has tattoos doesn't belong to a gang. We need to not be looking for Zebras at a race course. Gangs are normally all about money. Money raised mainly from drugs. Gangs want to protect what they see as being theirs.- Their turf, their reputation. All the gang members I talk with (I talk with them almost everyday!) Think the little white boys playing their Ludacris downloads on their i-pods are just something to laugh at.. Eamonn

Stosh, I think we think that everyone knows about Scouts and Scouting. Truth is that this just isn't the case. I think it's fair to say that just about everyone has heard about Scouting, but when it comes down to knowing what we do? Many of the people I asked to part with over $100k, were women. As I posted in a thread some little time back they knew about Boy Scouts and little old Ladies crossing the road, they had seen photos in the local papers of Scouts posing for their Eagle Rank photo. But aside from that they knew very little. While I am very much a traditionalist. Someone who enjoys being outdoors and doing the outdoor traditional activities. I know that I'm blessed because I know how to do this stuff. Mainly because I did it as a Scout. (Spend a good deal of time last night trying to get a Monkey's Fist out of a line that I want to use for something else!) I think I'm a very good leader! (Nothing like self-praise!) Not because I sat around in "Leadership Classes". But because I was given lots of Boy Sized opportunities to lead, when I was a Lad. Still my big fear is that maybe? Just maybe we are trying to sell something that just no longer appeals to the youth that are around today and or the youth that will follow. This of course begs the question if we are going to change? How far will we go? The "New" Wood Badge is going on ten years old and we are still looking back, going on about how it really isn't Wood Badge. Venturing has been around for about 13 years and I still keep hearing that it is a new program. From what I hear the changes made in the UK have been for the better but the changes made in Canada have not been so good. Should we evaluate what they are doing to see what works and what doesn't? Ea.

Have to admit to really not following the thread about Global Warming. Truth is that I really don't know enough about it to be of much use. The thread about gays was it seemed going no place fast. While I didn't close it. There was one forum member who just wasn't really my cup of tea. I very well might not be this members cup of tea either! Having just re-read the past few posts in that thread, I do support OGE and think he did the right thing. Ea. Have just noticed the other closed Thread. (OGE - Man you were busy!) Seems to me that OGE was right on the money with this one.(This message has been edited by Eamonn)

Barry and Stosh, Couple of things. I don't know about others, but I know when I'm asked to do an evaluation of something that I'm part of, I do at times to become very defensive. Barry, you have brought up this Tiger Cub "Thing" several times. I'm tempted to ask Can it be turned around? Or it is that it was a bad idea from the get go? As you know I'm not a great fan of Venturing as it is right now. I think we have looked at it, tweaked it, evaluated it and defended it. Still I think it just isn't working. On the same hand, I think that very few Troops do enough to really engage and hold the interest of older Scouts. I mean more than just having the odd visit from a Lad who wants to complete his Eagle Scout rank. A few years back I was involved in a project which entailed me asking people for very large amounts of money. I met with and talked with several very wealthy people and a few foundations. I was very taken back when they explained that they had of course heard about Scouts and Scouting, but really had no idea what we did or were about. I was left trying to judge what was the best selling point to the person I was meeting with. Was it better to try and sell the program? All that good out-door type stuff. Or better that I go for high-brow type stuff about helping the youth we serve be better prepared to make ethical choices. (Or a mix of the two?) One question I'd ask if there was a poll would be how do we do a better job of marketing Scouting? Eamonn.

I sweet-talked my wife into becoming the Pack Treasurer. She isn't called Her Who Must Be Obeyed for nothing! She ruled with an iron fist! As a rule she is very shy (Outside of our home!) But she made it clear that when it came to everyone paying their way? That was the way it was. It helped that we had a son in the Pack and many of the other parents were people we seen outside of the school or at church. This gave her the opportunity to do a little more arm twisting outside of the Scout meetings. I hate to come off sounding harsh. But I don't buy into this single parent thing! Many of the single parents I know have a lot more money than families with two parents. Sure there are families that do face real challenges. But a single Mum still pays the same for a gallon of milk and a loaf of bread that you pay. Ea.

"However, I'm gonna quit." Bye! Ea

CNYScouter, Wow! You get around a lot! One week Venturing and this week Cub Scouting! Anyway -I'm with you. I never heard of such a thing as going back to complete Cub Scout advancements. Ea.

One of my responsibilities as Scoutmaster for the last National Jamboree was to show the video A Time To Tell. Maybe it was bad timing on my part? But I opted to show it in February. When the weather was cold and there was snow on the ground. Which meant that the Troop meeting would be indoors. The Troop had only met 3 times before my showing the tape. Talk about deer caught in the head-lights! The Scouts just sat there. I tried to get some sort of a discussion going. But it was a lost cause. The best tool we have in our tool box when it comes to protecting the youth we serve is the Buddy System. As you can imagine we have a fair number of guys where I work who have been convicted of molesting kids. Looking at their history it seems that in most cases (Not all.) These guys are family members of the kids who they have harmed. While I'm 101% for doing everything that can be done to keep our kids safe and free from harm. I know that I'm never ever going to molest a kid. With this in mind a lot of this YP Stuff isn't so much about protecting the youth. It becomes about me protecting me. Last thing I want is in ten years or so from now, is for some nut to come along and say that I did something to him or her. There are and I think always will be some very sick people out there who are very determined to do what they do. These people will bide their time, waiting for the kid that they know they can prey upon and wait for the opportunity to do what they do. It would be great if all this sick people had beards, smoked cigarettes and hung outside of public restrooms. At least that way we could tell our kids not to use the public restrooms! But that isn't the case. I do think we all need to be vigilant and aware of the volunteers we work along side. Chances are that if you feel something doesn't seem right that there is a good chance that it's not right. Looking at the files of the convicted child molesters we have locked up it seems that there are about the same number who molest young girls as young boys. The Council I serve had a Field Director who was charged and convicted of molesting his 15 year son's girl friend. I'm not an expert on why molesters molest. I however don't think it's about sex as much as it is about power and some kind of mental illness. Eamonn

Not trying to hijack the thread. I had a group of African-American inmates I was working with. These guys never shut-up! They were talking about something that was going on in the jail, when one said "Hey! You can't trust the white man!" I reacted immediately saying "Thanks- You might have noticed that I'm white." The reply I got was "But Mr Walsh your not white your English!" I'm still working on that one! Ea.

Basementdweller, While I don't know, have not heard and don't have any what might be called insider information. My feeling is that there is a move to try and make Scouting here in the BSA more relevant. Some of this has to do with the diverse changes that are happening in America as a country. Some of it has to do with with the decline in membership over the past decade. I along with two or three others, believe that we only have to look at Venturing here in the BSA to see what happens when the BSA has a knee-jerk reaction. I have been around for a while. I have very fond memories of what Scouts and Scouting was for me and what it meant to me. At times I can be and tend to be very defensive when it come to anyone messing with my idea of what Scouting is or should be. A trip to my son's bedroom clearly shows how much things have changed since I was a Lad. My bedroom had a bed, a bedside light and a bunch of books that I got from the local library. His room is full of every high-tech gadget known to man. Lap-top computers connected to the web,, phones that I at times think are smarter then he is. A TV that reaches 299 channels. His day is full of text messages, emails, social net-working sites. When he finds time he challenges his cousin in Honk Kong to games on his Play Station. What I'm trying to say is that the world he has grown up in is very different than the world I grew up in. One day in the future he is going to become a parent. His values are not the same as mine. Maybe? One day he will become a Scout Leader. I don't see him ever spending an entire afternoon with a Brillo Pad scouring a Billy Pot! (Benn there done that and it wasn't a lot of fun!) Oak Tree, Thanks for a very interesting list. You have got the little gray cells working. Ea.

I don't ski and have never been on a snowboard. But as ever it kinda seems that the discussion has become about the rule. As ever the people who follow the rules will do so and those who don't will not. Lord knows the rules about Paint Ball have been looked at, discussed and moaned about for years. I think that looking for the "Loop-hole" and finding ways to skirt around the rules does more harm than maybe we might know! What kind of example does it set for the kids we are serving? Ea.

"how can we expect them pay up front?" In as nice a way as you can you firmly tell them that you need the money. Over the years my son has been involved in different activities. When he signed up, I knew what he was signing up for. Take soccer for example. I knew that there was going to be two seasons per year, a spring season and a fall season. I knew when he games would be played and where they would be played. I also knew that along with the fee I paid that there was an expectation that each family was expected to participate in the fund raising event that was planned. Once you have your annual plan done you can pass this information on to the parents and let them know what's happening and when it will happen along with the cost. I think even back then each soccer season cost me $70.00 ($140 for the year) I got a t-shirt and the club paid for the use of the field and paid the refs. We also got to attend a covered dish supper and the winning teams got a trophy. My son along with about 350 other kids paid their way and had a great time playing soccer. Why should Cub Scouting be any different? Just tell the parents that this is what the cost isand when you (Or whoever!) is going to pick up the check. Ea.

Watching the TV this morning. Seems that a lot of people are asking a lot of questions. CBS is doing something they are calling "Where America Stands". They were looking at American creativity today. Inventions and inventors, what has changed the way we live and what's next? ABC was busy showing a poll about Americans and if they are happy at work and the work they do. It seems that most people are not happy. All of this got my little gray cells working. I kinda think that Scouts here in the USA is about ready to change. Not sure why I think this? No one has said very much, but it's just a feeling I have. I think that before we make any changes we should ask people questions. This thread is about: What questions should we ask? Not the answers. We might want to spin off and look at these questions in other threads. While maybe asking the question if girls and gays should be allowed in? Is a question. My hope is that we are not going to dwell on it. Same goes to the question"If God should be removed from the Scout Oath? Again maybe the question is viable bit I hope we don't get bogged down by it. (One reason why this thread is here!) I also wonder who we should be asking? The Scouts we have? Youth that we don't have? Adults who now serve? Parents of youth? Eamonn.

Getting to where you want to be when you are a new unit is really tough. Don't give up! There is a light at the end of the tunnel and once you get to the end? There will be something else to worry about! Scouts and Scouting is really wonderful. When I was trying to push units into recruiting more Scouts, I talked about happy smiling faces. Believe me I was being 100% sincere. Still, like anything that's worth doing it comes at a cost. - I think you know that. There is no such thing as a free lunch and sadly there isn't a Fairy Cub Scout Mother. Some things you might want to think about and maybe discuss with the other adults who are involved in the pack might be. Stop using the word dues! Use the word cost or costs. Maybe a meeting with all the adults who serve the pack, that is to say Youth Leaders and Committee Members, where you all sit down and plan the next years program. Themes for each month, trips the entire kit and caboodle any and everything that is going to cost anything. Break this down into a cost per boy. Back when I was a CM the cost was something like $120.00 per Cub Scout, not including the cost of resident camp. (Add about 15% to this number.) Don't be afraid of the numbers! Parents are willing to pay for what they see as being a quality program. This $120.00 became the "Magic Number". Parents were informed that this was what it was going to cost to be a member of the pack. (Yes we had plans in place to help families that needed help that's where the 15% came in.) Parents were told very clearly that if the money wasn't there the Pack would cut back on activities. They were also given a couple of options. They could write a check for the entire amount. They could fund raise the entire amount or pay some and raise some. Fact was that we didn't care as long as the "Magic Number" was paid in full. Parents who chose to fund raise the money were told that any money above the magic number would go toward the cost of resident camp. When you have the meeting with everyone make plans and have dates for fund raising events. We got by with the popcorn sale and two frozen pizza sales a year. Being as many of the Cub Scouts went to the local Catholic School which always seemed to have one fund raising event after another! Many of the parents were happy to just write the check and not have to keep pestering their family and co-workers. At events like the PWD, a few parents and committee members would set up a refreshment stand, selling soda-pop, hot-dogs and the like. This of course didn't pay for the event! But this money went into the Pack funds. I really think that when it comes to paying for the program everyone needs to know that nothing is free and everyone has to pay their way. Ea.

BadenP I'm very familiar with the old: Ashes to ashes, dust to dust, what the volunteers don't do the DE must". But... If a District is not operating as it should and not doing things by the book, I would hope that any DE worth his or her salt would do everything in his or her power to change things and bring it around to where it should be. In the past the Council I serve has fired a SE and made it clear to another that if he didn't go that he would soon be let go! Thankfully we have had some outstanding Council Presidents who know how this game is played and play it right. The President who fired the SE was awarded the Silver Buffalo Award back in 2008. The mindset in the Council and of the Board is that the professionals work for us. A lot has to do with having knowledgeable volunteers who refuse to allow the wool to be pulled over their eyes. Ea.

I have sat on the Nominating Committee that selects our District Chairman, several times. DE doesn't have a vote and at times wasn't invited to attend meetings. We have a couple of times invited a member of the Executive Board to sit on the Committee. The hope being that he might know more Community Leaders than others on the Committee. As far as I'm concerned all this talk about COR is a load of hot air! Every month for 3 years I send each and every COR a reminder, come invite to attend District Committee meetings. Only the very few who held positions on the District Committee attended. I paid for a dinner each year when we held the Annual meeting again I invited them all, hoping that maybe free food might get them out -It didn't! As for: "My question is, do the council professionals, and the Council President owe the remaining volunteers and parents in our district a clear explanation as to why the District Chairman was dismissed? And is merely being a thorn in their side reasonable cause for dismissal?" Hopefully the professionals have had nothing to do with this. So they should just sit in the corner and shut up! What the Council President might do?? Might depend on what the Chairman has done If the guy is a real twit and everyone knows that he is a twit and has acted like a twit. The District should be passing the hat and buying the President a bottle of his favorite tipple. - Thanking him for removing the guy. The Chairman we had before the one we now have was asked to step down. Everyone was happy to see this guy go! The guy before me a good pal of mine got into it with the then SE over FOS goals. My pal lost his temper and ended up telling the SE what to do, sadly he used some very strong Anglo-Saxon language and was kinda shamed into going. I think if I were the Council President, I would want to attend the very next District Committee meeting. That way I could set the record straight and put any rumors and misinformation to rest before it got out of hand. Eamonn.

The award changes, It's a Quuen's Scout when we have a Queen and King's Scout when we have a King. My certificate is signed Elizabeth R. I can see reasons why President might Obama might not want his name attached to a BSA certificate. I was kinda hoping that he might be able to find a way, but it seems not. I'm wondering if he will attend the next Jamboree? Ea

The Troop in London, I was a Scout in and later the S/L (SM) for. Was one of the early Troops, started in the very early 1900's - The history gets a little mixed up as along the way there were several mergers, moves and that sort of thing. Sometime in about 1915, we became the 17th Fulham (Pioneers) Pioneers because the Troop was well known for pioneering. The Troop met over the years in several different places, including a few church halls, but was never tied to any church. When WWII broke out all the leaders and many of the Rover Scouts joined the military. The Cubmaster was the administrator for a hospital so he wasn't allowed to join the military. He started a newsletter that kept everyone up to date with what was happening and that sort of thing. Of course most of the kids had been evacuated, so the Troop wasn't doing very much. One member of the Troop didn't make it back. He died in Japanese prisoner of war camp. The guys who came home wanted a memorial for him and thought that our our own building would be the best memorial. They set about raising the needed cash, build the building and just kept on raising more money. I think I was the Scout Leader of one of the wealthiest Troops in the UK. The building and the grounds are in a very trendy part of London and are worth a fortune. We of course didn't have any CO and no one asking us to share the cash that was raised. Ea.

See if you guys hadn't been in such a rush and had stuck it out with the Brits. You wouldn't be having this problem. (I'm now ducking!) Ea.

Couple of Doc's from the hospital where HWMBO works came over with cross country skis. I never mastered anything on the slopes, which are not that far from where I live (Seven Springs and Hidden Valley.) But, being as these guys were on my doorstep and I couldn't bribe them with an Irish Coffee, I donned the skis. Right now I hurt in places that I never knew I had - Places that even the Irish coffee minus the coffee isn't reaching. This growing old is a real pain! I'm going to order the snow shoes- They can't make me hurt any more than I do now! Ea.

Buffalo Skipper, Here in the neck of the woods I serve, it seems that Troops seem to focus more and more on the younger Lads. This is, I think because there are more of them. The Troops tend to be not very big to start with; most of them having less than 30 Boy Scouts, many with less than 20. Then come Cross -Over time they get hit with about a dozen new Scouts. About half of these will leave by the end of the year. Along with a few of the 13 and 14 year olds. The older Scouts that remain seem to only hang out because of the OA or they for one reason or another want to complete Eagle Scout rank. I seen this with my son and a lot of the older boys who join the Ship do so in order to get away from the "Little Kids". I know some forum members have found ways of holding the interest of older Scouts. Some have Venture Patrols that work, some Scouts are active in two programs. (When I was Skipper I did my best to get the Boy Scouts who wanted to complete their Eagle to do so in the Troop, mainly because I was too lazy to want to mess with Merit Badges and the like!) While maybe "Warm and Fuzzy" might not be in order, I think it's worth remembering that even a clock that has stopped is right twice a day. "The last thing you want as a Scoutmaster is to have an Eagle Scout of yours" I'm sorry I have never seen any Scout other than my son as being mine. If a Scout becomes an Eagle Scout, it is his Eagle. He knows in his heart of hearts if he deserves it or not. Scouts are youth members and should not be having sex, so how would a Lad know if he is gay or not? Is there a test of some sort? What happens if he thinks he might be? But then meets the girl of his dreams and changes his mind? Some things are far better left alone. Ea.