Eamonn

Back when I was a Scout Leader (SM) In the UK we did have copies of the POR. The Book wasn't free! You had to order it from Scouts Shops. I haven't checked for a while but it was on the UK Scouting web site. Last time I looked it seemed a bit bigger than I remember it being. While I tend to agree that having all this stuff in one handy, dandy book is a good thing. I also remember having a few pain in the neck adults who liked to use the book to beat up on others with. I have at times been known to bend the odd rule (No matter where it might be or not be!) And I hate people who seem so self righteous beating me over the head with what at times is their interpretation of "The Rules". Another thing that comes to mind is what good are rules if nobody is ever going to see that they are being followed? Ea.

"Do you know what the term Deathbed Eagle means? If so, why does that term push your buttons?" Brent, Most often the "Deathbed Eagle" term is used for a Lad who doesn't complete Eagle Rank until very close to his 18th birthday. Why does this term push my buttons? I would hope that we are in the business of helping and supporting the Scouts that we are supposed to serve, not going around putting them down with what to me sounds like something that isn't very kind. Back to this "Eagle Mill" thingy. As I posted, I've never really allowed advancement be the driving force for the program that we end up delivering. For me Fun, Adventure and new challenges are the driving force. Even if at times I have been guilty of a little arm twisting in order to get the PLC to end up thinking that they came up with what we ended up doing, when if the truth be known it was what I had hoped we'd do in the first place! To be really honest I think me spending a week at a Council ran summer camp, watching Scouts run from MB Class to MB Class, would drive me nuts. This does mean that the Scouts I have served have maybe not had the same opportunities to earn all the badges that are offered at your normal council ran summer camp or at least not as rapidly as the Scouts who do attend these camps. I do firmly believe that each and every Scout needs to have all the skills needed to be a First Class Scout. These skills are needed so that he can pursue a more adventurous and challenging program. I have been both shocked and saddened when Boy Scouts have joined the Sea Scout Ship and they just don't seem to have ever mastered these skills. I'm saddened because I just don't understand what they could have been doing for the past four or five years? I'm even more sad when I find out that their leaders haven't been able to instruct these skills because they don't have them and in a good many cases seem to have no desire to ever learn or master the skills. This is really sad. All the information that a Scout needs to advance past First Class is out there. I have never tried to hide it or keep it a secret. I like to think that I have supported the Scouts I have had in whatever goals they have set for themselves. But I think that I'm very fortunate, because I was a Scout in a Troop where I learned the basic skills as a Scout. This means that we can go away for a weekend and have a great time building pioneering projects or going on hikes using maps and compass, without having to fall back on following a list of requirements that are in some MB Book. We are able to plan Troop meetings around these skills without having to fall back on the "Merit Badge Expert" just to fill in the time. Sure it takes a lot more effort and more time to get the PLC to lay down a meeting plan that is skill based than it does to ask little John's Dad the plumber to come in and cover the requirements for the badge. But I understand why the SM who hasn't got these skills has to do things like this and there have been times when I know that knowing more about plumbing might have served me better than knowing the workings of a Spanish windlass. More and more I'm becoming aware that I'm what might be called "Old School". For me Scouts and Scouting is about doing Scouting and outdoor type stuff. I think a P/L who can lead his Patrol in setting up camp, cooking and cleaning up and then maybe go about building a monkey bridge is indeed a real leader. These skills can and do come in handy if and when the time comes for him to do a Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project. I attended an Eagle Scout COH the other week. I asked the Lad about his project. He very proudly informed me that they had rebuilt the bathroom in the church. I forget how many hours he said he had in, but it was a lot. When I asked who "We" were he said him and his Grandfather. I don't doubt that the project was needed and is going to be of service, but I just don't see much leadership in it. Maybe he was lucky that I wasn't on that BOR? I don't have a issue with Troops that produce a lot of Eagle Scouts. I do have issues with adults who don't do what they are supposed to do. In my book a requirement is just that a requirement. Either the lad meets the requirement or he doesn't. If he fails to meet it? Then we are not doing him or anyone else any good by signing off that he has. If a Eagle Mill is a Troop that offers a program where Scouts do meet all the requirements? Then more power to them. If an Eagle Mill is a Troop that is all about short cuts and maybe not really meeting the requirements? Then clearly the adults are not living up to our oath and law. Ea.

I really dislike the term "Deathbed Eagle". That one really does push my buttons! I suppose that there is a Troop somewhere, some place where all the Scouts love to wear full uniforms, which is 100% youth led. Where the program is tailored to fit the wants and needs of each individual Lad and the methods of Scouting are used in perfect harmony and are in sync. So far I have never ran into such a Troop. But I'm willing to bet that at least one forum member belongs to such a unit. I have and much as I hate to admit it still at times do look down my nose at people who don't do things the way I think they should be done or go about things in a different way than I have or might go about them. Most of the time I'm guilty of not knowing enough about what is going on or why it is going on, but I'm happy in my own mind to think that I'm right because I say I'm right. At times I go on (And on!) About how the Scouts of today are not as good or well skilled in the outdoors as maybe the Scouts were when I was a Scout. At one time, not that long ago! Scouts and Scouting was one of the most important parts of my life. I was unwilling to see or accept that others didn't share the same passion and attach the same importance that I had or did. I didn't want to know or care what might be going on with them outside of Scouting. If they didn't show the same commitment that I had, then I was OK saying that they weren't as good a Scouter as I was. I have had over the years a few what might be called "Super Scouts". That rare breed of Lad that everything seems to just come too without any real effort. The Lad who never gets lost, can tie a Sheep's-shank with one hand behind his back and has never ever not once managed to burn the bacon. I've had a lot of cheeky little fellows who ten minutes after mastering a bowline forget it, who even when armed with the best maps and compasses and expert instruction get lost 300 feet from the camp site and have managed to burn holes in billy-can while making tea. For the most part none of us adults know what the kids we lead take away from having been a Scout. Many of us like to think it's something with deep meaning that in someway shapes the future life of the young Lad. I'm not so sure about that. We can if we really try give deep meaning to something that a Scout that was once under our leadership tells us and maybe there is some deep meaning to it? But when an ex-scout retells a story about a Campouts that was wet and the tents all fell down. He is telling a story about a wet weekend when all the tents fell down, not going on about some exercise in character building. I never have really as a leader spend much time on advancement, mainly because we were too busy doing other stuff. I was happy to wait till a Scout came to me and said "Hey, Ea will you take a look at my book." This doesn't make me right or wrong. It was just the way I went about things. It might or might not for others? I think maybe the parents of the Scouts I had were maybe not as involved in what their kids were doing as the parents of todays kids are. But back then I remember complaining that the parents weren't as involved as I thought they should be! I think that I'd like to see us all put more empathize on Scouts participating in activities than in just advancement, but then again maybe if they all participated more, more would advance? I do hope that I'm getting better at not looking down my nose at what others are doing. I also hope that I'm starting to understand that just because something on the surface doesn't seem to be right, might just be a different take on doing it than maybe the way I might do it. Ea.

moosetracker, I think if I were in your shoes, I'd skip the spring training. Explain to the District Committee that you just don't have enough time or the Training Team in place as yet to offer it. With any luck, this might act as a wake up call for them. Also when it comes to selecting and asking people to join the team or help out at with training's. This is your baby. You need to do this yourself, don't pass it on to anyone else. I found that having people think that they were doing things for me personally and helping me out worked best. To this end it is always better to ask someone one on one in person. (Even if it means making an appointment and visiting them at home.) Rather than sending out emails or sticking something in a newsletter. There really isn't a lot of paperwork involved with training. I was happy to let a DE take care of the paperwork. But after a course I'd check with the Council Registrar to make sure that the attendance sheet had been turned in and the participants had been credited for the course on Scoutnet. While some people moan and groan about attending training. I found for the most part once they are there, they have a great time and do have fun. We at times allow the having fun and having a good time mask the fact that what we offered just wasn't that great. We owe it to the participants and the Scouts they serve to offer the best training's that we can. Most times the best way to do this is easy! All you have to do is follow the syllabus. Maybe after you have four or five courses under your belt, you can think about a little tweak here and there. (If I remember right. I made the wildlife ID part of the hike, with the Troop Guide that was assigned to each patrol covering it. Of course before the hike we went over with the T/G what they might be looking out for. We also moved some of the Friday night stuff around because of people arriving at different times.) While it sounds great that people come away saying that they had a great weekend. The goal should be that they come away saying that they had a great weekend and learned a lot and maybe saying that they can't wait to attend Wood Badge? Like it or not. You are the person (As Training Chair.) who is responsible for all of this. The buck does stop with you. Ea.

moosetracker When I read: "The first round table after summer break was the first time I met with some of the trainers (they don't like to meet)." I get worried. Without effective communication, your lost before you even start. Never be afraid to ask people to pay their way. If these people stayed home they would still have to eat. However it is a good idea from the get go to establish how people are going to get repaid for whatever money they spend out of pocket. They of course do need to know what is allowed and what isn't. Having a budget ahead of time which you share with everyone can avoid some un-needed unpleasantness down the road. In the Council I serve all fees are paid to the Council. So when it comes to anything to do with cash this all goes through the DE. (This and all the photo-copying) Who cares if the staff out-number the participants? I remember one course (The old Train the Trainer) Where we only had four participants and a staff of 16! -It was a great course. If I were you, I would present the course as it is written, without any shortcuts or additions. When it comes down to staffing the course. Select one person to be the course leader. It's a good idea to do this as early as possible. A year or eighteen months ahead of time is not too early. This selection needs to be given a lot of thought. You need someone who: Is trustworthy. Not going to let you down at the last minute. A good communicator. Someone who will return phone calls and emails and has the gift of the gab. Who is well known and well liked in the District, The type that people will want to work with and for and who they respect. That you know you can get along with. While he or she doesn't have to be an expert or expert in every area, does tend to know the stuff that the course ill cover. The list could go on! Working with the District Committee find a date or dates that will work. Remembering that most Districts make the District calendars go to press about six months ahead of when they start. As a District Training Chair. You should attend the Council Training Committee Meetings, don't be afraid to tell the Council what you need and when you will need it. The Council should be able to supply A/V equipment, Patrol Boxes, Dining flys, tables, chairs. We had participants bring their own tents, but the council should be able to muster up a few spares. They should also be able to provide sharp edged tools, rope and a camp ground. You need to get your dates in as early as possible as dates fill up fast. Once you have selected your CD, plan to spend an entire evening with him or her. Go over the syllabus page by page, session by session to ensure that you are both on the same page. As you do this get a feel of who is going to be asked to do what and make a note of who they are and who is going to do the asking. Plan to meet as often as you both think you need too, but nearer the date you will need to be in contact a lot! For the outdoor training course we always had one Troop Guide assigned to each patrol. They remained with the Patrol all of the time except at meal times. The Patrols cooked their own meals with food provided by the course. The Staff meals were cooked by the QM Staff. One member of the QM Staff was the Grub-master, he or she working with the CD and within the budget was responsible for purchasing all the food and dividing it up for each patrol. We found that having 3 or 4 QM's worked out well, even when they might be asked to cover a presentation. Much of the work they need to do is done before the participants arrive. Our guys sorted the Patrol Boxes (Provided by the Council that are used for Wood Badge courses and youth training courses. They put up the dinning fly's for each Patrol with a table and chairs for each patrol. The syllabusss will determine how many presenters are needed. The CD will know how many are going to stay and who will come do their presentation and then leave. Having lots of different presenters is a good thing. It helps you in your selection of the next CD and brings in new blood. (Don't fall into the habit of allowing the same old group of good old boys do everything. This will one day bite you on the tail.) When planning a course remember "Be Prepared" Look at what might or could go wrong and plan for it. It is an outdoor course, but having an empty building available "Just in case" is a good idea. Having an extra QM in case a Troop Guide can't make it is a good idea. Have the District Chairman invite your CD to the District Committee Meeting a month before the course. Have the CD give a full report about the course to the committee, who is doing what and what needs to be done. The District Committee if they are any good will want to ensure that anything and everything that bears the District name is a success. They should be willing to help or know people who can help. After the course give a full report to the District Committee. Be honest! Tell them what worked and what didn't. Include a financial report. This will help the person who does this the next time. I know I have missed out a lot of stuff about publicizing the course and training the staff, covering things like what uniforming is and isn't acceptable, campfire planning and so on. But a good deal of this is covered in the syllabusss. Hope this helps. - Good Luck. Ea.

Back when I was serving as a District Commissioner, I was really pushing for a guy who had served for a very long time as a Unit Commissioner to get the Silver Beaver. The night the committee had met I called a pal of mine and asked if this U/C had got it? My pal informed me that he hadn't. I started a long rant about how unfair it was and what a bunch of nit-wits the committee were. I then asked who had got the Beaver? I was really taken back when my pal said that I'd got it. I knew in my heart of hearts that this other chap was far more deserving and more worthy than me. But I also knew that I had no control over what the committee had done. So I was honored to accept the award. The following year I sat on the Silver Beaver Committee and I made a case for the U/C and I was thrilled when he got it. I think it is a little wrong for any of us to look down our noses at people who do or who don't have awards. Some awards are easy. A Lad who can't swim a mile, should never receive the award for swimming a mile. In fact to give it to him would be wrong. But a Lad who has proved that he has and can swim a mile deserves the award. It makes little or no difference how good or bad the Lad might be. Holding it back as some kind of punishment, seems wrong to me. Meeting set down requirements should also be a matter of black and white, either they are met or they aren't. We seem to run into problems when things are not so black and white. I like to think that we are not in any way about punishing the kids we serve. At times we do need to make these kids aware of their short comings and there are times when a Scout might need to have a little more time in order to show that he or she is really doing their best to live up to the oath and law. Most of the Scouts I've known who have been in Scouting for a while are not in for the awards, they remain in because they are enjoying what they are doing and the people that they are doing it with. Much the same can be said about the adults. It is kinda sad that in many ways Scouting has become about awards and badges. The high point of the year should be the Summer camp. A time when kids can be kids enjoying the great outdoors, enjoying time spent with pals and learning to live together. In place of this we have a group of Scouts running around rushing to get from one merit badge class to the next. This seems to have become the norm. Everybody seems to except it, but no one seems to have ever asked the Scouts. I wonder how many Scouts would push to make Eagle if the adults weren't pushing and making such a big deal about it? If it wasn't such a big deal, then not getting it would never be perceived as punishment. Ea.

" I will need to look for people willing to stay and support the training for more then their 45 - 60 minute training session." This might mean that you could run the risk of losing your best presenters. It is far better to have a team of people that will look after what needs to be done along with a team of presenters. I'm sometimes asked if I would attend a training and cover a part of the syllabus. When I'm free I'm more than happy to do so. What with work and things at home, I'm not so willing to give up an entire weekend. We are very fortunate in having a group of Campmasters who enjoy taking on the role of QM. They enjoy spending time with each other, shooting the breeze. They also enjoy sharing what they know with the participants, but are very hard working and do get what needs to be done, done. The participants see and know how much these guys do, they also see how much fun they are having. All of which adds to the overall course. Ea.

Now might be a good time for you to sit back and look at what your role as a Training Chair. Is really all about. A great example of how it should work can be found by looking back to what the CD did when you attended Wood Badge. His or her job is all about developing the staff. When the course starts he or she has very little to do. Your job as a Training Chair must be about developing a Training Team. Depending on how well the District Committee is set up you might be able to cross "Committee Lines" and involve other Chairs to look after some tasks. Maybe the Camping Committee could take care of providing the tents and Patrol Boxes, using tents and equipment used at Summer Camp? We all hopefully learn from our mistakes. While offering Training's in conjunction with other events may sound like a great idea and more user friendly, if it isn't going to work? Then what's the point? I found when I was Council Training Chair that having each of our four Districts (We are a small Council)Offer the Training's twice a year on the same weekends each year, worked for us. It wasn't perfect, but at the time it was the best we could come up with! It meant that each District only needed to present the outdoor twice a year, but the participants had eight opportunities a year to attend. Not having the courses on the same weekends meant that if need be we could ask presenters from other Districts to help if need be. A big part of being a Training Chair is to always be on the look out for new people that will join the team and who can be trained to multitask maybe coming on to help the Quartermaster Staff and doing the odd presentation. While you should know the syllabus for all the courses and in an emergency be able to jump in. This doesn't mean that you have to be actively involved in the course. You might just want to introduce the staff and be happy to hang out keeping an eye on what's happening. Seeing who is doing a good job and who might be the Scoutmaster for the next one. Ea.

Does National Care? I'm not sure. I have served at on our Area Committee. I was the youngest member on the committee, everyone else had me beat by at least ten years or more, in most cases a lot more. All the members seemed to be very well heeled and all were white males. Most of the time at the meeting was spent grading the 13 Councils. Looking at Membership and finances, trying to ensure that the Councils met the standards set down by National. There was a guy who reported on the OA. He spent most of the the reporting on which Lodges hadn't sent the paperwork for Quality Lodge in on time. The only areas of program that were ever discussed was the selection of adult leaders for the World Jamboree and Wood Badge Training. The meetings were about as interesting as watching paint dry. Still to be fair. As we all know the things that really matter happen at the unit level and a good many adults at the unit level see any involvement from outsiders as interference and some type of spying. National was very slow to embrace modern technology but is doing a better job of communicating thanks to the web. My problem with the way things seem to be set up is that stuff comes down from above which very few people have very much input, involvement or say about and then the members of Executive Boards and Area Committees are tasked with pleasing the powers that be. Over the years I have met and worked with a few of the guys who work for National. These guys are all very nice and do present the stuff with great enthusiasms at times covering for National. Friends who are SE's attend the Top Hat Conference. A few pals attend the National Conferences. Both of these meetings seem to be about passing on what has already been decided. Every now and then we do here that some idea is being field tested in some areas. I've never been in a field test, but wonder if the test is about making the shoe fit or really looking to see if whatever it is really does work? Or is just a bad idea? Eamonn

Seems to me that this fellow (I think 23 is not that young!) very well might not be the sharpest knife in the drawer. But... I have to say that trying to make everything a YP issue ain't that clever either. Best thing for everyone is to find the right time and place, sit down and have a chat. Go over what the expectations of a ASM are, allow him to get whatever it is that is on his chest. Work on fixing whatever is not right. And move on to the task at hand. Ea.

I spent part of this week attending a symposium hosted by the PA.Department of Corrections. A few of us were talking about the lingo that is used by both inmates and staff. Right now two of the catch phrases that seem to be used a lot are "It is what it is!" And "How's that working for you?" We, here in this forum, in the past spent a lot of time dwelling on tweaks and the tweakers. Like a lot of topics we look at, it seemed to me that we fall into two groups. One group seen any sort of "Tweak" as being just plain wrong. The other seemed OK making the changes that they thought made things work better. Group one seemed to look at what came from "The BSA" being the holy word from on high. Group two seemed to think that what they were changing was in the best interest of the youth and people we serve. For me? I see it as a Values Thing. I'm happy to think that I joined this organization and am willing to go along with the program and stuff that is dished out. My hope is that I'm flexible enough not to look down my nose at people who maybe do things differently that I might. At the same time I do kinda fear that if we over do the tweaks, that it will become impossible to see what we were supposed to be trying to do in the first place. So I do care, but am not going to lose any sleep because we don't all do things the same way. Ea.

I've been involved in Scouts and Scouting for a while. By now I would have thought all this "Good Stuff" would have taken a hold. Sadly there are times when it becomes very clear that it hasn't. Back in 2001 at the Jambo, we camped next to a Troop from Philly. The Troop was made up of nearly all African-American Scouts. One of the leaders, an African-American female. Who I swear had the shrillest voices I have ever heard took to getting up early, banging a frying pan with a metal spoon and yelling "Rise and Shine, rise and shine." My feeling toward this woman and what I wanted to do to her were very far from "Scout-Like". Being the yellow livered coward that I am, I sent one of my ASM's over to have a word with her. (So much for me being Brave!) OJ. Now 22 has gone all the way through the program, reaching the rank of Eagle Scout. He still is a lazy little toad, not very good in the out-doors and is terrible with his money. He is I have to admit a very caring fellow, but I think he would have been that way without ever having been a Scout. For every great story about a Lad that has been "Saved" by some caring volunteer, I'll bet somewhere there is a basketball coach or soccer coach who can say much the same thing. I know as a youth leader, I was so busy doing stuff and ensuring that the stuff was being done and was fun that I didn't spend that much time on the "Why". Sure we recited the good words, did the odd good turn, even at times said the odd prayer. Still the main focus was on having fun and getting the task at hand done. Looking back at OJ again! I do think he got a lot out of serving on staff on JLTC and from serving as SPL. The OA was the main reason he stuck around, but I'm almost sure that being with his pals in the Lodge came before any idea of Cheerful Service. I'm left wondering if we the adults just kinda do the stuff and hope that something rubs off ? More than give any real thought to why we do what we are doing? Ea.

Some of my co-workers and myself were talking the other day, many of them feel that any idea of inmates in a correctional facility is just a myth. Looking at the number of PV'S (Parole violates) Who end up back, I'm starting to think that any real rehabilitation is indeed rare. This got me thinking about what we do. I know that we provide recreation for a very large number of youth. Still, most of the youth we work with do tend to be "Good Kids" Before they ever join our ranks. Most come from good families, who are willing to put their hand in their pockets to pay for what we offer. At times it seems to me that we are all too quick to brand a not so good kid as being "Unscoutlike" and we can't wait to see the back of him. Or the kid doesn't feel that he wants what we have to offer and quits. This seems especially true for Lads when they reach about 14 -16. Do you feel that we make a difference?

Kinda strange how things change. Back when I was a Scout in that Green and Pleasant Land across the pond, a pipe seemed to be a "Must have" in order to be a SM. Even after all these years I can still remember small groups of what at that time seemed like very old men! Wearing silly hats with plumes stuck in the hat band, socks with garter tabs (Very close to sets of the knobbiest knees ever exposed.) All puffing away on their pipes. I seem to think that I read somewhere that BP enjoyed his pipe. Ea.

I am a smoker. I'm not proud to admit it.But after smoking for a very long time I'm hooked. While I'm not serving at present in a position where I'm around our youth members. They tend to just show up! Part of my (Yes my!!) backyard is full of boats. A couple of my (Again my!) out-buildings are used for boat repair. The ash trays in my cars are full. I suppose I could tell the Scouts that they can no longer use the back yard to store the boats, because I use it when I'm smoking and walking the dogs. I could evict them from my out buildings, because at times I use them to fix my tractors and light up a cigarette. No I don't smoke when there are youth members in the cars. I don't smoke where I know my smoking upsets or offends anyone who rides in my car! Go ahead give me to Royal Order of the Boot. I can take the resources I allow others to use, I can keep the money I donate. Hey if you can't accept me? Why should I bother to support and be part of an organization where I'm not welcome? Ea.

Seeing some of the names in this thread brought back memories! Kinda sad that seven years have past and still the same old same old discussion keeps reappearing. Ea.

While being uniform while in uniform is an OK idea. I do think that we can maybe take it a little too far. In Scouting uniform is a method; a tool that is used to help reach the over all goal. In the area where I live about half the adults do wear full uniform. Some of these Scouters do go a little overboard with a zillion patches on the red wool jacket! About a quarter of the Boy Scouts wear full uniform, nearly all wear the shirt but the pants are replaced with blue jeans. I really can't remember the last time I ever seen a Cub Scout in full Cub Scout uniform. No one bothers with the socks or the pants. When I was CM, we waited till pants went on sale at one of the local K-Mart type stores and most of the parents bought these. At this point in time there seems to be so many different uniforms that even if everyone were to show up in full official uniform they wouldn't be uniform in uniform. As to slides? I have always seen these as something that allows people to show their own individualism. We have in the Council a couple of outstanding wood carvers. (One, I'll bet is at the Boy's Life exhibit at the Jambo with his display.) These guys have wonderful imaginations and I have over the years managed to nab a few pieces of their work. I wonder whats next? If we take this too far, will we need uniform coffee mugs? Ea.

Many years back I when I participated in the old Cub Scout Wood Badge our Den Leader gave all the members of the Den a Bear Necker Slide. It is kinda nice. It is around some-place. - But where? I'm not exactly sure. In our area the CD does as a rule present all the staff members with a gift. I had table-top flip chart holders made for the staff when I was the CD. Even though they only cost $11.00 each, with a staff of over 20 this soon mounts up. I had requested that the staff not buy me anything. They chose to disregard my request and bought a really ugly plaque, with flying eagles on it. I have it tucked away in a drawer out of sight. My big fear about gifts from the TG to the participants is that it can get out of hand. The best gift a TG can give is his or her time and understanding. Take the time to read and re-read the syllabus. There is nothing in there that isn't there for a reason. Sometimes it takes a while for that reason to become clear. Take the time to get to know each of the Patrol members and understand their strengths and weaknesses. Some people can sit through the entire presentations and it just seems to go over their head. While others who have attended this sort of course before are so busy telling everyone that they have been there, done that that they too miss a lot of the real meaning of what is going on. Make sure that you are there for the "Guys" in the patrol. Simple things like returning phone calls and emails mean a heck of a lot more than a lot of junk that will end up hidden in a drawer. Good Luck and enjoy the course. TG is the best position that there is! Ea.

When I read all of this, I'm happy that I'm a Queen's Scout. My certificate is "Signed" Elizabeth R. This doesn't by any means mean that I'll be taking up fox hunting anytime soon! OJ's Eagle Scout certificate is signed by President Bush. I never was or will be a "Bush Fan". I'm left wondering how I would have felt if my certificate had been signed by Marget Thatcher? I never liked her very much. Now Winston Churchill? That would be really cool! Ea. (As this thread is where it is, I'm happy to let it ride, if only to show how messed up Fox News can be.)

Some people have no consideration for others! There I was planning my retirement down South, spending my days doing as much as I could to get as many of them "Rats with antlers" to invade your yard. Now you have gone and put paid to all of my plans! Does anyone want to buy a lifetime supply of apples and a truck load of salt blocks? Ea.

We have teams of drug sniffing dogs where I work. They are very expensive to breed and train. So much so that I kinda think a run of the mill security firm isn't going to just happen to have one?? I'm having a problem! I dislike the idea of sneaking. Either this Lad has earned the trust to go on this trip or he hasn't. If he hasn't? Why take him along? If I was really that unsure about the Lad, I think I'd just let him know how I was feeling and ask him if he minded if I searched his kit. Telling him that I was concerned about his welfare and the well being of the others on the trip. "Drug Problems" Come in all shapes and sizes. A co-worker has just finished rehab for abuse of prescription drugs. I have a few friends who I think very well might be alcoholics. They seem to be unable to go very long without a drink of the hard stuff and have a hard time stopping once they start. I count myself very lucky in that I did try pot and did inhale! But I didn't like it. Being in London in the early 70's there were a lot of pills going around. I wish I could put my hand on my heart and say that I didn't try them because it was just wrong. But the truth is that I didn't try them because I was scared that I might like them! (So I never did.) I talk almost every day with guys who are in jail because of drugs. Many if not not most say that they started when they were kids and wish that someone had did something before things got out of hand. How you see or view this Lad might play a big part in what becomes of him. See him as a no good drug taker and chances are is that is what he will become. See him as a Lad with a problem who needs all the help you can give and even if you fail and the drugs win. You will have peace in the knowledge that you really did do your best. I will say a prayer for this Lad. He needs all the help he can get. Be honest and open with him. It really is the best way to deal with him. Ea.

My 2 Cents. Scouting for me is all about relationships. I kinda, sorta think (Or like to think!) I know the Scouts in my care. With this in mind. I hope that I wouldn't have to rely on a tip to know that a Scout was having a problem with drugs. Again, my hope would be that I'd do everything I could to help "Fix the problem". I know that I don't have the skills needed to really fix it, but I would talk to the Scout, his parents and try and see that he gets all the help that he needs. There is a difference between a Lad who has a problem and the lad who is going to bring something along on a trip just for "Fun" or for some sort of thrill. This can be avoided by clear communication about what is and what isn't acceptable behavior before the trip along with what the consequences are for un-acceptable behavior. Ea.

"Discourage parents from camping with their children? That has to go down as one of the craziest comments I have ever heard of. Why not teach them scouting? " Poppycock! There are times and places for adults to learn about Scouts and Scouting, trying to teach a herd of parents about Scouting when the Scouts are at camp is not the time or the place. I never have and never will be in favor of having too many adults around at camp. I see no reason for having them there. In my view they take away from the real reason why we go to camp and a lot of times add more problems. We have had camps where we have invited parents to come and visit and weekend family camps. Of course transportation might be one reason for having a few extra parents tag along. But other than that, if a parent wants to get involved? He or she should offer their services to the Committee. Ea.

I of course don't know your son or your husband. Thinking about my relationship with my so. I that at times, I can be a real pain. We both know how to push each others buttons. I most times think that I know the best way of getting the job done. (I'm not just talking about sorting out a shed.) Part of my problem and yes it is my problem is that I miss the times when he was "My little man". That cute little fellow who followed me around like a little puppy dog, looked at me with adoring eyes and knew that I would always be there for him. Wrong as it was, I think part of me enjoyed the period when HWMBO and him just didn't seem able to connect and both argued about everything. This allowed me to play the part of the wise old sage. He is soon to be 22. We both still love each other very dearly. But he seems happy to not discuss what is going on with me, I'm accused of not listening, when the truth is that I'm not told! HWMBO has taken the time to know most of his friends, I know a few of them, but have to admit that I have a hard time recognizing one from the other, they all have very short hair and all seem like they are in need of a good meal. My role now seems to be one that I'm the go to guy when everything else has gone wrong and I'm tasked with sorting out the mess. I have never been able to suffer in silence, which of course only adds to the distance between us both. I like to think that I'm good with kids, in part because I remember what it was like when I was a kid. Sadly I'm not so good at remembering what it was like to be a young adult. My great hope is that the love we have for each other is strong enough to enable us both to sail through any and all the storms that lie ahead. I of course am planning that when he presents me with a grandkid?? That I'm going to stuff this kid full of sugar and Mountain Dew and then send him home! (How about that for Fatherly love! - Joke.) Ea.

When I think about supporting "The Council". I end up with along list of contradictions. I'm almost clever enough to know that without cash the Council is going to have to cut the services it can offer. But I don't like the idea that my hard earned money is not being spent wisely. Many Councils are a little reluctant to show where the money is really being spent. Even trying to find out something simple like how much is being spent in a certain area becomes a real challenge. So much so that at times I can only think this is done so by design. I don't like this and would very much prefer that a more open and easy to understand method of accounting be adopted. I have been around the Council where I live for a little over 25 years. When it comes to the services offered by the council. It seems to me that a lot depends on who the SE is and also how involved the Council President is. How well these two guys work together also seems to be a big factor. We were very lucky in that for a number of years we had a run of Presidents who knew what Scouting was about and how to go about making things happen, sadly these guys were followed by a run of Presidents who looked good on paper having all the right connections, but no real knowledge of Scouting. Couple these guys with a SE who wasn't that bright and things started to go down hill. We as volunteers need to know what we want from the Council. We need to know who is deciding what. When I became a District Chair. I kinda inherited the guy who was the District Camping Chair. A really nice older fellow who has a great love for camping and the Council Summer Camp. He was in many ways like the old lady in the ad for the muffler who used to say "I'm not going to pay a lot for this muffler" Only for him it was all about the cost of summer camp. He had dug his heels in and for years done everything he could to keep the cost of summer camp from being increased by more than $5.00 a year. He paid little or no attention to what the cost of the camp was all he seen was keeping the cost down. Being that he had served on the camping committee since BP was a boy, he had a lot of pull. It wasn't until he was able to see how much money the camp was losing that he agreed to even consider more than "His" $5.00 increase. Councils are run by people. If we want to ensure that they are run right we need to either be involved or ensure that the people who are involved are people that we can trust. All too often the people who are unhappy with what is going on turn their back on it all and walk away. Rightly or wrongly these people are labeled as not being interested and soon it becomes that because they are not interested or involved that their opinion or feeling just don't count. While not supporting the Council might in some ways send a message, I tend to go in the other direction. I like to go check in hand and say "Hey, here is my check, how are you going to use the money?" A few years back thanks to some really poor money management by the SE and lack of attention by members of the Executive Board, we were faced with having to sell a Council owned camp site. A full meeting of the Council Executive Board was called. At the time thanks to the SE hand picking board members the Board had about 60 members. (Way to many in my opinion!) About 40 people turned up. Selling the site was the only item on the agenda. I sat there and looked around and of the 40 I only seen about 6 who had ever been to the site. I was upset that this lot who knew so little were going to decide on something that would impact the program for years to come. Selling the site was of course the easy way to solve the financial problems. (The real solution came when we let the SE go!) I felt at this meeting that I needed to get the attention of the board members, so I wrote a check for $5,000 and challenged everyone there to do the same, saying that if we each gave $10,000 we could make the problem at hand go away. Sadly only one other board member was willing to match my offer. It did however grab the attention of the Board and we managed not to sell the site. - Money does talk. I have in the past posted that I would be all for a Council Membership fee, doing away with the need for FOS. Ea.