Eagledad

Oh! I see. You were being condescending and smug. Well, I complement your humility. Barry

Ah, finally. A profound statement that will be used in a lot of future discussions. Barry

The Girl Scouts wear sashes with their t-shirts. Barry

Sometimes making the effort shows a buy-in and commitment. It speaks loudly for a 20 year old jumping into a working team of 35 to 60 year olds. Especially if that adult plans a long career as a scouter. Barry

I’m also ready for a uniform change. There needs to be a clear line between the 110 year old traditional Boy Scouts program and the new family approach. The Girl Scouts around here like to wear tie dyed t-shirts. I’ve seen families wearing custom t-shirts at amusement parks. There ya go. Barry

Yes, if you want to get me lecturing again, just whine about sports taking away scouts. Our troop averages 60% participation at meetings during football and soccer season. 95% during the rest of the year. Strangely our camp outs average about 80% all year long because while scouts miss meetings due to practice, they work the camp outs around the games. Barry

Sadly TMSM, it doesn’t really get any easier because you get new parents every year. So, you need to learn how to stand your ground and to become a good salesman. Get use to selling your vision and program everyday, all the time. Learn how to kindly push back. You want your parents’ support because patrol method is hard and you need their trust that you are trying. That is important because some days you will do it wrong. You can’t change the program to fit every scout. That is when you are friendly, courteous and kind in standing your ground in saying no. You need your ASMs to respect your directions, even if they don’t understand, but you also need a CC who will tell the parents they are intruding. Never tell the parents to leave; just tell them your firm expectations. If they resist, ask them to call the CC. Finally, try your best to spread camp sites as far apart as you can to keep the parents away. As your program grows and the scouts have fun, you will gain more solid support, respect, and a reputation. Takes a little time, but you will grow into it. It seems to me from your posts that you have the qualities to be a great SM. Practice selling everyday. Barry

Unless the DL was already an ASM, they wouldn't know how. The ASM needs the skills to guide the parents as well as the new scout in the troop culture and patrol dynamics. The ASM and new scout guide work as a team with the objective that the guide will answer most of the new scout's and his parents questions. In our troop, the SM in training is the New Scout ASM. It's just how we do it. We also don't let any new adults in as leaders for at least six months so that they learn how the program works. I also learned that the new scout guides (or troop guides) needed the maturity of a 15 year old to be effective. In my experience, we never had a good TG 13 or younger, and never had one 15 or older who didn't knock my socks off. Barry

BSA's highest dropout rate is with first year Troop scouts. And from my studies, those actually are in the first six months. In other words, if the new scouts are around after six months (after summer camp) they will likely stay with the troop several years. We found the number driver one of dropouts is the sudden jump from an adult culture to a self-independence patrol method culture. The drop out rate isn't something new, I found it a problem as far back as I could find records, 1960s. The problem is boys lack of maturity for the confidence of making a lot of decisions about their environment. They are simply scared of the dark. We helped our situation by assigning a new scout ASM with the new scouts. Since new scouts aren't used to boys nearly their age taking care of the their basic needs like food, sleep, and PROTECTION, they find themselves terrified of the troop program. The ASM is an adult who eases them into the boy run culture. When the new scout wants to ask an adult a question because they don't trust the boy leaders, they ASM helps them (and their parents) by taking them to the boy leaders and letting them answer the questions. As the new scouts grow to trust the boy leaders won't let them die from bear attacks at night, the new scouts get more comfortable with the program. They start making decisions like how to pack for campouts and how to wear the uniform. Small stuff in the big picture, but big decisions for new scouts. Summer camp is important for new scouts because the week long outdoor program is where they develop the routine of boy scouting and patrol method. It's also where new scouts can learn to enjoy their independence by going about their day without being told by adults what to do. New scouts should have almost NO guidance or help from adults by they time they get to summer camp. If new scouts leave camp feeling comfortable about camping outdoors and the general order of patrol method, they usually stick around. Parents often tell us their son came back from camp a much more mature person than the one that left. Boys like activities that makes them feel good about themselves and that is what drives them to stay in scouts. We found the key to fewer dropouts is access to an ASM (adult) until the scouts get used to boys running the program safely. About six months. Barry

There are several reasons we were driven to this style of crew patrols, but yes, the scouts learn a lot. A lot depends on the activity and the adults advisers invited. Snow Skiing for example requires the adult who owns the condo the scouts use. Another reason we like these crews is any scout of any age can create and lead or organize the crew. We had a new scout who was a bicycle racer. He struggled to get invited on bicycling crews because of his age, so we worked with him to create the crew himself. One scout with a learning handicap was rollercoaste fanatic, so we helped him create a crew to ride roller coasters all weekend long. It was a popular activity. Everybody likes theme parks. During the hey day, our troop was averaging 6 adventure crews a years. And actually there we more patrols crews than the number of activities because back packing and canoeing activities limit the size of crews. Sometimes we take two or three crew patrols for the one activity. Each crew patrol will have a leader or organizer, but we also request one activity leader and Quartermaster to keep track of each crew patrol (mostly during travel). The Quartermaster is responsible for trailer loading and are the members with the keys. So, if a trailer is required, so is a crew Quartermaster. Barry

None at all because the crews meet outside of patrol time. They are members of two patrols. It's the same as most troops Philmont crews, they only meet to prepare for the activity. Barry

What do I think? Well, it brought to my knees. I crashed after round 2. Well, I actually only got 80% of round 2. My knees can't handle running, so I replaced the 400m run with 15 Burpees. I did this WOD workout after an upper body workout, so I'm going to try it again by itself. Wish me luck. Barry

The main problem with most Troops is they don't hand the keys over to the scouts. Why would older scouts be bored if they are busy running the program. Now I know that is an idealistic response. Some scouts don't want to have responsibilities, and some scouts just want adventure. But, the solutions to those scouts dilemmas can actually improve the troop program. I've said it many times here, the quality of a troop should be measured by the performance of the older scouts, not the younger ones. Self satisfaction comes from personal involvement and responsibilities. If the older scouts are bored, then likely the adults are compensating too much. We wanted our troop to provide more adventure than just the monthly campouts. So, we created and started pushing scouts to create and plan Crew outings. These are outings where the scout creates a crew outside the troop program specific to the theme. Once the outing is over, the crew dissolves. The scout is responsible for planning and finding the required number of scouts and adults for the outing. Philmont and Boundary Waters are included in the crew outings, but scouts also organized other backpacking, rafting, scuba and snow skiing. One scout organized a crew to go to six flags to ride all the roller coasters. It's up to the scout on the activity. It can be anything. There were no age limits to most of the crew outings, so any scout could join the crew provided he physically and mentally met the minimum requirements. So, the whole troop was involved in the adventure part of the program. And, the crews pushed the troop to have more adventure in the monthly camp outs. I admit, developing a mature older scout program takes some effort from the adults, but not near as much effort as starting a whole new Adventure Crew. Barry

I fully agree. We found that 3 out of 5 new crews failed in three years, and the 4th in 5 years. We had a saying in our district, if the adults can't make it work in the troop, what makes them think they can do it with a Crew? MattR hit the nail on the head; "This might require the adults to learn some new things as well". Barry

Yep, you are missing the point of the Uniform Method. Scouting is about making good decisions. What are the guidelines for uniform in the Scout Handbook. What kind of decision is the scout making if they choose their personal desire instead of considering the rest of the patrol and troop. Uniform has many purposes, including building unity with your fellow scouts as well as developing a healthy mind. Barry

Consider the respect from the experienced adults you will gain for the effort. Sadly, In the eyes of most adults, you're still just a kid. But, just showing a willingness to be an adult will gain you the respect that you can cash-in later on ideas and opinions on the program down the road. I wish the course wasn't so long, that has to be considered. But, I would think it's worth it in the long run if you plan on becoming a SM in this troop. Let us know you ideas for ticket items. Barry

I'm sure he is speaking of the idealistic rule of a selfless motivation to a noble objective. The rule is no less and no more than the same motivation for helping the little ol lady across the street. Barry

You're being too much of a mom. Be a mentor who is outside looking in. Don't make this your hill to die on. Scouting is about dealing with real life with humility and integrity. Those traits will stay with your son long after the memory of his Eagle project. Do you have any idea how much one person has to give of himself to plan, organize, and build a fence on trail? For those of us who have coached, mentored and guided scouts' Eagle project ideas (sometimes we say no), we tend to look at the process being 90% of the project. The process is where the scout not only proves himself as citizen of character and a leader of integrity, but also grows from the experience. Barry

I am really sad to here this, not so much because of the move, but because it's so hard. Passion is amazing; it has the power to move mountains, but the softness to bruise easily. You have been talking about this troop for a few years and I admit that I rather you had applied your effort toward a troop more like your youth experience. Looks like that will happen now. Still, this experience isn't without purpose, you have some rare knowledge for future scouters with similar experiences. Adults are desperate for help that will ease their struggles. You certainly have a lot of experience there. I look forward to reading about your future adventures. Barry

SSS, speaking up against power requires a great deal of courage. Not only for the 10 year old new scout vs. the 17 year old varsity scout, but for adults as well. In fact, most repeated abuses occur because our human nature doesn't want to risk personal harm for standing up. Most of us hope instead the bad behavior will not happen again. For a culture you describe to exist in the troop, the adults have to allow it and encourage the culture. Just saying "The Scout Law is-the-law", won't work. Actions set the tone of troop culture, not words. And that you don't fault the rest of the PLC is a problem in encouraging the "speak up" culture. Everyone there are equally at fault. Knowing that we are equally at fault is what motivates making the right choice and standing up for what's right. If I know the person is front of me is behaving badly, then the only way to make it right is to personally stand out. If I see the authority (adults) repeatedly only taking corrective action against the one behaving badly, while letting the watching observers off the hook, I learn that I'm safer by not standing up. If on the other hand the observers are held accountable for not stopping the behavior they know is harmful, then I at least know I'm supported for standing up for my conscience and principles. I will give you an antidote at the top of my head. We had to take a scout to the emergency room for a broken big toe that was caused by tripping over a tree root while running barefoot through camp. When the scouts were asked exactly what happened, their consistent stories made clear most of them watched the event unfold. When the SM asked them what rules were broken, most of the scouts braggingly listed them. When they were asked why they didn't stop their friend from breaking the rules, they were suddenly quiet. They all knew the rules. In a way, they may have been more at fault than the scout with the broken toe. At the very least, they were held accountable. Barry

There is a large number of adults who are searching for some kind of recognition of importance in their lives and find it in volunteer organizations because prerequisite education or experience isn't required for a respected position. You think it's bad in scouting, go check out church committees. Some scout professionals will quietly admit that these volunteers cause more harm to the program than good. I have watched district committees brought down to their knees from these adults. I believe the WB course naturally attracts these sort of adults and are part of the reasons for the problems discussed here. As I explained in my earlier post, WB used to be an advanced teacher training course for experienced troop leaders. And those leaders were quietly hand picked based on the reputation of commitment to continually provide a quality program at the unit level. The course was not offered to short-timers or lesser performing scouters. It was not advertised as a Capstone or pinnacle experience, it was simply an advanced leadership course. However, these graduates were the most respected Scout leaders at the time (and held in envy) simply because they had the most experience and training. Rarely would one of these Scouters be accused of setting themselves above other scouters because in their minds, they were simply scout leaders who went the extra step to improve their skills for working with scouts. I won't get into when and how Wood Badge lost its honorable distinction, that trend started before I started as a leader. But, it's fair to say National wanted to use the course name sake reputation going forward in their training. I think the problem is that the traditions of the old WB were kept and pushed to extreme by graduates that were more concerned about the distinction than the intended purpose. How will WB change in the future, well my observation of National doesn't go through the effort or cost to change anything until proven of notable youth membership drops. While that was the cause for switching to the new syllabus, I'm not sure how the new course drives the youth to drop out. Barry

My I suggest the CC because the BSA says they are to deal with discipline at this level. Barry

Yes, I was in a hurry and my wording wasn't the best. My apologies. What I meant was that scouts don't learn values until their mentors react to their bad decisions. Mentors don't know how they will react until they are confronted with those decisions. It's a growing process for all units. That goes for all bad decisions, whether a scout chooses not to take responsibility when he is expected to cook or clean for the patrol or he bullied a scout. Adults will be have to learn how to contend with new challenges everyday. How they deal with the behavior sets the expectations for behavior for all the scouts. I used to teach that adults have to learn from each new challenge so that they will do better when it happens again. We had similar situations, so I can respond with some degree of experience. After reading some of the emotional posts, I'm wondering why some of you are even leaders. Scouting is about helping young men build moral and ethical character. If you aren't up to it, then maybe hanging back as a parent is best for you. Adults don't build the character for the scouts, they have to choose to do that themselves. But the adults do guide and mentor them by exposing them to the consequences of behavior, so they can make a choice. Character comes a the high price of humility. The adults responsibility is to expose the scout to his behavior so that he can see the wrong of his choices. Seeing the wrong of his actions is the humility that motivates change. The scouts need to be given the responsibility to see themselves in their actions. They need a objective pragmatic mentor who ask them the questions they must answer to themselves. Sure, the parents have to know, and I'm sure they will deal with their sons as well. But the scouts need to take responsibility for their behavior and show actions to atone for it. I found that when a scout was confronted with the level of harm they caused, they are pretty good, not only at making restitution, but making a life long positive change in their character. I would be surprised that after being confronted by the magnitude of his behavior, the SPL doesn't choose to take himself out of the SPL position. That has a lot more impact than angry emotional adults running around looking to cover their butts while demanding their bound of flesh. These boys needs help. If you don't know how to handle this situation, call for assistance, not cover yourself, but to learn from it. Something like this will occur again at some degree in the future. Not exactly the same way and likely not to the severity of harm, but it will happen again and the SPL or PL will need guidance and mentoring. Barry

Handle this sooner than later. Confront the PLc as a group. I held the whole group equally accountable and demanded (in a calm quiet firm voice) they make a list of actions to hold them accountable to be presented to me for discussion, recommendations, and approval. THEN I will talk with their parents about the whole situation. As for the SPL, I demanded he set up a meeting within the next 2 days with himself, his parents, the CC, and me. He must set up the meeting. He would be advised to recommend his own actions of accountability for discussion, recommendations and approval. This is your moment of defining the culture of behavior from here forward. I believe the less you say and the more the scouts are SEEN holding themselves accountable, the more impact you will have on all the scouts. Many adults choose these moments to get vocally loud for more impact. But I believe less is more. Body language speaks volumes and will have more impact in the future. what happens to the scouts depends on their reactions and how they hold themselves accountable. The goal the SM is to not take any credit for their actions of accountability, but be a strong mentor and guide of moral and ethical choices. Finally, this is the adults fault because the SM hasn’t roll modeled your behavior limits. Word have little value. But you haven’t had an opportunity to show your expectations for proper behavior yet. You are being tested. This is an opportunity to instill character changes in the scouts by showing your disgust of this behavior. Remember, quiet voice and body language. Barry

I'm not surprised at all. If you look at Philmonts published guidelines and just pick any ol cheap gear, it gets heavy quickly. Also, inexperienced back packers tend to want everything, not realizing one good knife and one back packing saw works fine for the whole crew. I have never taken a knife with a crew of scouts.Then there is the SM rule of taking care of the scouts by bring extra socks, caps and gloves, first-aid and FOOD. Our troop is a back packing troop, so we got better over the years of understanding exactly what gear is really needed for a crew. One rope for a bear bag, one good knife, saw, and good cooking gear. The fewer tents, the better. And nobody carries the whole tent, it is divided out among crew. But, where I found the most abuse of weight is with the food, especially at Philmont where the crew is carrying at least for five or more days. Add the water and the pack weight can easily double. The adults generally will compensate for the small scouts when the whole crew should share the load. But, don't feel sorry for the 70lb SM packs, feel sorry for the 95 lb Scout with the 65 lb pack. There a lot of them because nobody is showing them how to pack lightly, or at least balanced. Like most things, backpacking is a learning experience. One rule I learned the hard way is that if you don't want to carry a lot of gear, don't get a big pack. It's too easy to say "I've got room, throw it over here.". My present pack is half the size of the previous pack. Barry