Eagledad

That's good stuff. I might say that scouts become good decision makers by learning how to take responsibility for their bad decisions. This subject is not about the scouts, it's about the scouters. I have personal experience with the first scout, not the second. Ironically the 16 year old scout (my sons best friend since first grade) announced his situation to the troop at the end of a long day of his Eagle project. His parents showed up to support him, because that was probably the most difficult announcement of his life. That scout now has three kids all going to the same schools that he and my kids attended when they where their age. He has a masters degree in engineering and business. None of that really talks about his character, but without getting into long winded details, he set the high mark for taking responsibility of his bad decisions and is leading the life of an Eagle. I'm not going to suggest how all adults, much less Scoutmasters, should judge scouts when they make bad decisions. Maybe the problem with scouting today (and we talked about this many times on this forum) is we don't judge the other scouts enough in their early experiences to give respect. Did anyone ask the rank of the scout who helped the little old lady across the street? Is there honor in getting to 2nd class? I was taught in the early days (and experience has proven it) that only four percent of the population are natural leaders. Everyone else are natural followers. The average percentage of Eagles in the early days was about three percent of all scouts. Well doesn't that make sense? I have said that boys below age 13 aren't good leaders because they don't like it. But, there are those very few natural leaders that stuck out even at age 11. They are the 3 percent. The scout I mentioned above was not our best leader in the sense of taking charge and going forward. He was not our best SPL. He was not the troops best PL. He just didn't like being the guy in front of everyone else. But, he was a favorite to the young scouts because he had an abundance of patience and compassion. His friends held him in high respect because he was fair minded to his core. Adults held him in high esteem because he is even mannered, never loosing control and never backing off from a challenge. He was a very hard worker and seemed like a natural at everything. I called him Evinrude because he could push a canoe through the water like no one I had ever seen. All the adults liked him because he was that kid that we all wanted our kids to be like. Is he worthy of a good leader, or a really good follower? I honestly don't know, but I signed him off for his Eagle. Scouting is in the middle of big changes and I personally fear that the program is loosing it's foundation for existing. For all it's marketing of adventure, the primary reason for Scouting is character development. Plain and simple, at least for me. The only reason I hang around this forum anymore is to help the few scouters who want a values driven program. I want to help those scouters who want more for their scouts than just a camping experience and a badge. But it's not easy to be a moral judge of other parents' kids behavior. Sometimes we get it wrong. I confessed in my scoutmaster training classes that I personally did it wrong at least 50% of the time. If that is true, then how does the SM judge a scout to be a better moral and ethical decision maker? There is no easy answer; if we don't judge the scouts's decisions, then we aren't balanced mentors and our guidance is one-sided. If on the other hand we sometimes get it wrong, how does that work? How does one judge a scout with balance? How do we flawed adults hold the bar high enough to retain respect with outsiders looking in, and yet develop a decision maker who made a big mistake? There is no easy answer for me, I can only say that I had to work at being the best scoutmaster I could, one humble decision at a time. Barry

Focus on the first meeting, the first month and the first camp out. Everything will seem clearer after that. Start by focusing on the first meeting. Get the PL Handbook and SPL Handbook to plan the meeting. Basic meeting is Opening, Patrol Corners, Program and Closing. I typically ask the SM to play the part of the SPL (or PL if you wish) for the first meeting only to set an example and get the momentum started. Opening- SPL delegates scouts to run a very basic opening. Pledge, Oath, Law, Prayer, and quick Announcements. Patrol Corners - PL runs through a basic agenda of old business and new business. Since you don't have old business with your first meeting, your new business is announcing first camp out details; when, where, theme. Very basic. Program - Practice a skills for the camp out: setting up and taking down tents. Pretty much it for the first meeting. Game - Typically something that requires them to run and move around. Closing - retire the flag. A few announcements by the SPL, SM minute (practice this so you can get close to a minute) and dismissed. Of course the meeting will get more complex, but we are just trying to get the troop moving. Spend the next 2 or 3 meetings getting ready for the camp out; packing, food, clothing. Don't worry about advancement skills, they will come in time. Learn how to set up and break camp. Learn how to light a stove and set up washing tubs for KP. First camp out is basically the same thing. For program, teach skills they will need for camping and use those skills that weekend, like learning to start fires. Give the scouts the SPL and PL Handbooks and ask them to use them for the next meeting, camp out and other activities. Plan a planning meeting about three weeks in the future to plan the themes for the next three months of meetings and camping. Planning can get very complicated, so keep it simple, simple, simple and specific. Month two can be something like hiking and using the meetings to teach basic navigation, first-aid and proper hiking clothes. Then camp at a park where the scouts can do about a five mile hike with a lunch break in the middle. Simple program, but a lot for a new troop. Yet, it is very scouting. Make sure the troop meetings have at least 20 minutes of a FUN game. The campouts should have at least two hours of free time on Saturday. Don't rush Sunday, get up and cook a meal, church service (10 mins), an hour of advancement, a game, and break camp. Try to get home around or after 1:00 PM. Many troops hurry Sunday to get home early. I don't know way, but it hurrys the camp out and takes the fun out of Sunday. I advise new troops to elect the SPL and PL about every four months because it's a lot of work and burns out young scouts fast. Scouts this age don't enjoy leadership, so I let them do it only long enough to develop the program. I'm not a fan of cycling scouts through leadership for the experience because it is more often than not a negative experience. Leadership is for the maturity of older scouts. Many don't agree, but that is my experience. However, new troops don't have older scouts and need to develop a program for scouts to follow. The key is the adults taking up only enough of the slack to keep the scouts from burning out. And then stepping back as the scouts mature. Scouts will be mature by the next meeting and next camp out, so step back and let them do it. The adults aren't really leaders, they are mentors and guides. They should practice patience and waiting for the scouts to approach them. One way to understand that idea is for the adults is never to raise their sign up to quiet the scouts. Adults wait for the scouts to initiat the sign. If an adult has the floor for announcements or training and they need the scouts' attention, the adult asked the senior scout or leader to get the groups attention for the adult. That tends to remind the adults their place in a scout run troop. Ok, that is a lot to start. Barry

You missed camping other than monthly troop camp outs like: youth and adult leadership training, high adventure and OA work weekends. Matt is right, eventually the wife will set the hard limit. That’s when we learn the skill of delegating and stepping back. Oh, and don’t talk Scouting at the dinner table. Barry

Yes, that’s exactly what mean. I understand we are talking at the cub level in the one example, but if the adults can’t work with bad behavior at the Cub ages, they don’t have s chance at the troop ages. Barry

Patrol method is where Scouts grow from the practice of making ethical and moral decisions. Growth comes from values learned by applying the the Scout Law and Oath in their decisions and the results of their decisions. That only works if the Scouts are given the independence to fail. How will adults give the Scouts the independence to fail if they aren’t willing to accept failure as a requirement for learning? They can’t even decide if bad behavior should be reported. Bad behavior is an opportunity, not a dilemma. Barry

But, there is that discussion of adults trying to figure out if an 8 year old Cub Scout is bullying a new Girl Scout cub, and what to do about it. Should they report him to the Council? These adults are eventually going to be leaders in a boy run Patrol method troop program. Patrol method is supposed to be safe place where Scouts grow by experiencing the consequences of stepping outside of the Scout Law and Oath. How can a troop be a safe place if adults are debating whether or not to report the scout to Council. Please convince me the future of Patrol Method isn’t hopeless? Barry

I don’t know John, I think times have changed. Parents today don’t seem to trust other adults holding their kids accountable, just ask my high school teacher son. It goes both ways , teachers don’t trust parents, so they don’t contact parents with their sons and daughters personal struggles. Our kids are caught in the middle watching their role models and mentors looking for a safe space. We have created a hostile culture toward our youth. Barry

It comes down to local interpretation. I know scouts would have got credit for a troop summer camp in our council back when I was SM. Barry

Ah, NJ comes to mind. I forgot. Some theist define their morality along with atheist. Barry

You are saying atheist believe morality comes from God? Barry

I have consistently said in our discussions over the years that pragmatically, morality can only come from God because it never changes. All humans are born innately immoral. The difference between atheists and theists is atheists can claim any behavior as moral, while theist are held accountable to one morality from God. Atheist say slavery is immoral today, but they could say the opposite tomorrow and wouldn't be wrong because they are only accountable to ambitious emotional fickle man (the guy with the biggest stick, remember?). Theist are accountable to only one morality. Barry

Troops summer camps are a lot of fun, and a A LOT of work. Troops that run their own camps like them so much they plan them for several years. But the logistics can almost be overwhelming. Food alone requires a team to shop, transport and distribute to each patrol. The advancement team needs to decide on what they want to teach and start finding teachers and counselors to plan and develop their equipment list. A great start would be to find a WB logistics chairman (can't remember what they are called) because they have a very good system to get ready for something like this. I'm not trying to discourage your PLC, on the contrary, I believe it will bond your scouts and develop more scout growth than any other troop activity. But, if the PLC goes ahead with it, the troop needs to start planning NOW. Barry

A correction, my neighbors downs son is an Eagle. Barry

Lots of good advice. I also agree with talking to the SPL and other scouts. Our troop had several mentally handicapped scouts. Many of those scouts transferred from other programs that weren't as able to work with the challenges of these scouts. However, some of them had to eventually drop our troop because they weren't able to handle the challenge of a patrol method program. Our way of working with the scouts is starting with the parents. We would ask for their advice, as well as encourage them to participate. The parents of some of our handicapped scouts volunteered as leaders and were wonderful ASMs and committee members. My next door neighbor became the SM of the troop in his church so that he could work with his Downs son, who is not an Eagle. But as was said, not all troops are as welcoming to the challenge. We had several mentally handicapped scouts, including autism. One of the challenges of these handicap scouts is the differences in the severity of their handicaps. Each are unique and require different skills and methods for working with them. We worked close with the parents and I can say that our troop never asked a single family to pull their son out of the troop. But several families pulled their son out of the troop when they saw their struggles in the program. For example, one scout was so terrified of water that he had to drink out of a special glass. That scout came to every meeting for a year, but he could never participate in outdoor activities as a result of that one fear. The parents were very active, but they knew our program wasn't a good fit. That being said, I ran into that scout a few years ago while he was employee of a Target store. He pulled me aside and politely reminded me who he was because he was 15 years older. Then he thanked me for some of his fondest memories of his life. He thanked me, but it was his patrol that gave him those memories. I hope everything works out. Not just for your son, but for his patrol mates also. Scouting is about growth and many the patrol mates of our handicapped scouts grew immensely from the experience. Barry

Girls too? Ooh yuk!

Show the scout and his family what you are supposed to teach and ask their help to come up with ideas. He isn't the first or last handicap scout, your new ideas may help a lot of boys. Barry

Is this an example of girls taking boy out of boy scouting? We've had discussions under the theme of keeping the program fun for the boys, instead of the adults. I remember one discussion where the CM asked if he should keep singing the scouts' favorite song, "Greasy Grimy Gofer guts" at the pack meetings. SM's struggle with the same questions of their scouts as well. Blood Circle has been around since at least the 60s. Barry

Well said. Character is choosing moral actions over emotional desire. Barry

Yep, but it's not hazing. Barry

It's time National change the name of the organization to Scouts of America (SA). That would clearly define the difference between the traditional organization of the past and new (progressive?) organization of tomorrow. In fact, I think the change would open National to more opportunities with less resistance from conditional scouters. Then I wouldn't need to defend the changes of the organization of which I gave so much of life. "Oh, no no, I was in the BSA, not the SA", "My son earned his Eagle in the BSA, not the SA". Barry

Not specifically, no. But the Scout Oath says "On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law." The BSA mission statement says "The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law. NJ, you can interpret moral code however want. Your god, my God, whose god? The BSA seems to at the very least reference morality with higher power in the same objective of preparing young young people for life. Oh sure, a lawyer can find loop holes if that's what it takes to be part of the group. But I think your reasoning (defense) of higher power and morality only make understanding harder, not clearer. It guess morality really is accountability of our actions toward others. While most believers actions are accountable to god, you believe your actions are only accountable to you. Ironically, nobody directed a specific source of morality in this thread, not even from a higher authority. But once morality was mentioned, many here felt cornered or judged. Out of respect, no moral references were given. But I think, while you protest using a higher authority for judgement, most feel higher authority is the law. And they don't like it for this discussion. I'll be honest, I didn't expect this discussion to go this deep. Barry

Ah, I see what you are saying, the 10 Commandments were written by the finger of, well unicorns. Hmm, OK Merlyn, I'm curious, do feel you present an intellectual point of view? Thanks for the visit, but we must move on. Bary

It's not just the one-on-one experience it's all the decisions and actions the scout has to initiate just to get to the counselor. The growth from the one on one with the counselor is just a bonus. Sure, of course. And for two reasons: One is to give scouts more opportunities for personal growth. The other is show unit leaders how they can also give scouts more opportunities for personal growth. I can't say it enough, units will drive their programs to mimic training and district level activities. Quality of the unit program is only as good as the quality of the district. It shouldn't be that way, but it is. Barry

How do you know it's bad? Or course God does, read the Bible. It's hasn't changed. Religion is made by man. Man lets emotion rule and changes religion. But we only know that because God doesn't change. No elves in Bible. You can go check right now. Or tomorrow if you like because it doesn't change. Barry

The problem is the motivation of raising numbers and instead of adding opportunities for growth. When a scout follows the guidelines of the MB process, he is required to communicate with several adults before he even meets the counselor. He has to inquire of details and record some of the details on paperwork that has to be submitted to another adult for approval. All those actions require scouts to make decisions and process information. MB courses and summer camp take almost all of that away from the scout. To makes it worse, our district requires scouts to attend the MB College all day for 8 hours. So even if the scout wanted to take one class, he was stuck for eight hours. I found that appalling and complained. The reasoning is the staff didn't want to be responsible for tracking scouts coming and going. Once in their are in until time is up and all could leave. MC Colleges and similar programs take the character growth out of the advancement process. They can be made to encourage character growth by following the BSA advancement guidelines, but most don't do it because scout growth isn't the motivation. Change the motivation and these programs will improve the quality of learning. By the way, I did that and was told to go away. Barry