Eagledad

Lots of good advice. I also agree with talking to the SPL and other scouts. Our troop had several mentally handicapped scouts. Many of those scouts transferred from other programs that weren't as able to work with the challenges of these scouts. However, some of them had to eventually drop our troop because they weren't able to handle the challenge of a patrol method program. Our way of working with the scouts is starting with the parents. We would ask for their advice, as well as encourage them to participate. The parents of some of our handicapped scouts volunteered as leaders and were wonderful ASMs and committee members. My next door neighbor became the SM of the troop in his church so that he could work with his Downs son, who is not an Eagle. But as was said, not all troops are as welcoming to the challenge. We had several mentally handicapped scouts, including autism. One of the challenges of these handicap scouts is the differences in the severity of their handicaps. Each are unique and require different skills and methods for working with them. We worked close with the parents and I can say that our troop never asked a single family to pull their son out of the troop. But several families pulled their son out of the troop when they saw their struggles in the program. For example, one scout was so terrified of water that he had to drink out of a special glass. That scout came to every meeting for a year, but he could never participate in outdoor activities as a result of that one fear. The parents were very active, but they knew our program wasn't a good fit. That being said, I ran into that scout a few years ago while he was employee of a Target store. He pulled me aside and politely reminded me who he was because he was 15 years older. Then he thanked me for some of his fondest memories of his life. He thanked me, but it was his patrol that gave him those memories. I hope everything works out. Not just for your son, but for his patrol mates also. Scouting is about growth and many the patrol mates of our handicapped scouts grew immensely from the experience. Barry

Girls too? Ooh yuk!

Show the scout and his family what you are supposed to teach and ask their help to come up with ideas. He isn't the first or last handicap scout, your new ideas may help a lot of boys. Barry

Is this an example of girls taking boy out of boy scouting? We've had discussions under the theme of keeping the program fun for the boys, instead of the adults. I remember one discussion where the CM asked if he should keep singing the scouts' favorite song, "Greasy Grimy Gofer guts" at the pack meetings. SM's struggle with the same questions of their scouts as well. Blood Circle has been around since at least the 60s. Barry

Well said. Character is choosing moral actions over emotional desire. Barry

Yep, but it's not hazing. Barry

It's time National change the name of the organization to Scouts of America (SA). That would clearly define the difference between the traditional organization of the past and new (progressive?) organization of tomorrow. In fact, I think the change would open National to more opportunities with less resistance from conditional scouters. Then I wouldn't need to defend the changes of the organization of which I gave so much of life. "Oh, no no, I was in the BSA, not the SA", "My son earned his Eagle in the BSA, not the SA". Barry

Not specifically, no. But the Scout Oath says "On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law." The BSA mission statement says "The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law. NJ, you can interpret moral code however want. Your god, my God, whose god? The BSA seems to at the very least reference morality with higher power in the same objective of preparing young young people for life. Oh sure, a lawyer can find loop holes if that's what it takes to be part of the group. But I think your reasoning (defense) of higher power and morality only make understanding harder, not clearer. It guess morality really is accountability of our actions toward others. While most believers actions are accountable to god, you believe your actions are only accountable to you. Ironically, nobody directed a specific source of morality in this thread, not even from a higher authority. But once morality was mentioned, many here felt cornered or judged. Out of respect, no moral references were given. But I think, while you protest using a higher authority for judgement, most feel higher authority is the law. And they don't like it for this discussion. I'll be honest, I didn't expect this discussion to go this deep. Barry

Ah, I see what you are saying, the 10 Commandments were written by the finger of, well unicorns. Hmm, OK Merlyn, I'm curious, do feel you present an intellectual point of view? Thanks for the visit, but we must move on. Bary

It's not just the one-on-one experience it's all the decisions and actions the scout has to initiate just to get to the counselor. The growth from the one on one with the counselor is just a bonus. Sure, of course. And for two reasons: One is to give scouts more opportunities for personal growth. The other is show unit leaders how they can also give scouts more opportunities for personal growth. I can't say it enough, units will drive their programs to mimic training and district level activities. Quality of the unit program is only as good as the quality of the district. It shouldn't be that way, but it is. Barry

How do you know it's bad? Or course God does, read the Bible. It's hasn't changed. Religion is made by man. Man lets emotion rule and changes religion. But we only know that because God doesn't change. No elves in Bible. You can go check right now. Or tomorrow if you like because it doesn't change. Barry

The problem is the motivation of raising numbers and instead of adding opportunities for growth. When a scout follows the guidelines of the MB process, he is required to communicate with several adults before he even meets the counselor. He has to inquire of details and record some of the details on paperwork that has to be submitted to another adult for approval. All those actions require scouts to make decisions and process information. MB courses and summer camp take almost all of that away from the scout. To makes it worse, our district requires scouts to attend the MB College all day for 8 hours. So even if the scout wanted to take one class, he was stuck for eight hours. I found that appalling and complained. The reasoning is the staff didn't want to be responsible for tracking scouts coming and going. Once in their are in until time is up and all could leave. MC Colleges and similar programs take the character growth out of the advancement process. They can be made to encourage character growth by following the BSA advancement guidelines, but most don't do it because scout growth isn't the motivation. Change the motivation and these programs will improve the quality of learning. By the way, I did that and was told to go away. Barry

You really need to volunteer at the district level to understand what seems so simple. It's a life changing experience. Districts are manned by volunteers of all ages, experiences, and skills. Or lack there of. If anything, Council needs to give more direction to the district training program. But even then, the council training committee is led by volunteers. And, while Council has the professionals to encourage quality of the process, Council level quality is subjective to Council Leadership philosophy. I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just pointing out the challenge of the task. From my experience, if you believe in change at the higher level, you need to get proactive at the higher level. If opportunity is calling, then maybe it's the right thing. Barry

How did you know slavery is bad? Is there not one good act by man? How would you know? How could the hideously flawed man even conceive right from wrong without a perfect timeless measuring stick. Knowing right from wrong is proof of God because only God is timeless and perfect. How else would even the atheist know slavery is wrong. "Worthless" is an emotional adjective. An opinion without base or definition. Emotion is the flawed mans moral response to life. Emotion is fickle and measured only in the moment. What felt good yesterday feels bad today. Because God's morality is timeless and consistent, even an emotional atheist can know right from wrong. Barry

All depends on how MB Colleges and Advancecamps are used. If the Scouts used the programs as an additional resource for their personal advancement, great. But if they are used as planned part of the troop advancement program, then it can cause problems. Our troop never sent a group, we gave the information to the Scouts and left it up to them. Also, District and Council programs that cut corners or don’t follow the published policies set a bad example for troop programs. Our MB College doesn’t ask the scout to get a blue card or SM signature before meeting the MB Counselor. We found that 50% of the troops in our district didn’t even know the scout is supposed to contact the counselor to discuss the details of the meetings or that the SM signs the blue card (white card in our Council) before the scout meets the counselor. This all traced back to our MB College and summer camp. We readjusted the misunderstanding in training. Barry

Merlyn, we’ve discussed this before, remember? God is perfect, it’s man that messes up . That’s why He sent us a Savior. But, how do you know your fossils weren’t slaves? Barry

Ok, that wasn’t the question. But let’s be careful, 30 is reasonable size troop program for doing advancement within the program. Many of us have led programs of around 30 Scouts without having to “wing it”, as you say. What I asked and was really leading to is, did your troop learn anything to improve your troop program. I don’t think a single troop that improved their program didn’t learn some of the improvements from outside troop activities. Barry

I’m not judging your troops choice to experiment with Advancecamp, on the contrary, I applaud the effort to look for quality program activities. That being said, what can camp provide that your troop can’t? Could this be a learning experience? Barry

Thanks for your well thought out post vol_scouter, it is the discussion I extended. I agree that this dilemma should be left up to experts. But how many parents will provide that opinion to their Scouts unit? How many scout leaders want to know. Several here insist the parents shouldn’t even be contacted if the scout request it. Doesn’t that suggest the seriousness of needing expert guidance in of itself? I can’t tell you the many frustrations of working with Scouts whose parents didn’t explain the son’s medical condition because they didn’t want him to be treated special, or were embarrassed to tell us. But these Scouts were treated special anyway because their behavior was demanded of normal everyday volunteers who struggle to be a good scouter. And what about parents that don’t seek expert opinion because for reasons of hoping their child is going through a phase. Or even worse, they don’t care and are just use the unit to babysit and give them a break. We’ve had all these experiences. And have been threatened with litigation when we questioned and requested help with their sons behavior. What if the scout insist he should be called Superman. What is the scouter suppose to do? What if he insists his parents will cause him harm? Does the volunteer need some expert help? What if the scout uses threatening language and insist the volunteers not call his parents. That happened about 25 years ago. Do you not see how these situations are related? This is such a complicated subject and has so much room for harming the child that volunteers shouldn’t be confronted with the risk. This post gives me hope and is extreme discouragement at the same time. I’m glad folks here consider god as the source of morality. However, I’m disappointed that many don’t see morality in this situation or discussion. Back in the day when the moderators were more lenient with discussions, we had a pretty good discussion about the source of morality. In short, a few posters insisted that atheists can have morals that don’t come from god. I don’t personally agree, but with respect to nonbelievers and whoever else, I presented my opinion pragmatically, so as not to exclude anyone’s moral perspective. I wasn’t looking or expecting a discussion of morality. I must say I was shocked with the references to god and government laws. As I said, I was being respectful to all in saying this is a moral matter that we are discussing and not referencing any moral source. I was honestly shocked by the suggestion of my morality resource. I suggested none because I was open all readers useing whatever source they want. I assumed that “Do no harm” fit in everyones morals. Silly me, maybe I’m wrong. It appears to me now that many folks here aren’t Looking at this subject from a moral perspective, or they don’t want to. Can we really discuss a “do no harm” aspect of this subject without morality? I don’t think I can. I believe EVERY decision we make has a moral intention and consequence. Maybe I’m starting to understand why folks are accepting of doing what’s easy. As for what the scriptures say about this subject, the Bible says we are to raise our children in the way of God. And it’s clear of what happens if we don’t. Barry

Legal claim? Where do you get that? I think you need to start with the posted article and stay within the context that if experts are getting it wrong and putting these kids in harms way, a youth organization should certainly prevent volunteers from contributing to putting kids in harms way. Now, if you want to use state and federal laws to define your moral guidance on the matter, OK. But that certainly wasn't where that tone of the discussion started. You can certainly use that moral definition in the discussion, but don't expect me to understand it because is a little out there for me. So, whose morals? Those who would not want to do more harm to a youth. Barry

Misrepresent? The discussion was in the context of personal morality, you moved into the context of state laws. Barry

Do no harm. Barry

Ah! Government morality as the humanistic guideline. I'm not sure even atheist would agree. Barry

Hmm, 10 trees? You are right, but I'm speaking for the very beginners. And mainly the ones who are like deer in the headlights. Training I've learned is either too much or too little. I believe courses titled: "First day of Den Leader", First Pack meeting", "First Day of a campout", First day of.....", would be better classes because while they are very basic in direction, they provide enough skills to get them through the first day. As I said, this worked very well with our PLC, especially the Patrol Leaders. Get through the first meeting, or first camp out, and it's down hill from there. The hard part for new troop with new adults are the scout skills. So, take them one at a time for immediate needs. Do the first three Troop meetings learning to set up tents, starting cooking stoves and building fires. That will get the troop to the first morning of their camp out where they spend the day learning to cook and kp; cooking lessons in the morning and kp after lunch. Let the scouts have a couple hours free time before they practice cooking for dinner. They practice building a fire for the troop campfire and then send the scouts to their patrol campsite to enjoy the moon and stars. Tell them they can start a patrol campfire if they want. Simple easy basic. Get up Sunday, practice cooking some eggs and doing KP from what was learned yesterday. Then a simple easy 5 minute Sunday service. Spend and hour on skills like two basic practical knots to hold up a dinning fly. Another hour of a fun capture the flag game, then practice breaking camp. Breaking camp is everyone's hardest skill of the weekend. That is where the adult practice patience. Every meeting and campout grows from there. If the scouts see the value of the skills they are learning simply by the hands on application, they will have fun and look forward to the next one. Once the meetings and camp outs become just skills teaching, then keeping them interested is more challenging. But, take one simple step at a time as the confidence grows. I hate tree identification. Is that a left brain or right brain thing? Barry

Even atheist say they are moral. I'm talking about contributing to possible child abuse, so where does that fit in to your question? Barry