Eagledad

Hmm, the BSA was caught in a scandal something like this 20 years ago with the Learning for Life program. The inflated numbers were significant, but I don't remember how much. I seemed to remember they got sued. Barry

Is that a camels nose I just tripped over? Barry

You guys have given me an idea of how to lighten my pack another 7 lbs. Thanks Barry

Our experience is the scouts after a year had a totally different view of what they really needed for camping than what the adults felt was required for the first camp out. If I were to do it again, I would start with equipment only needed for backpacking. That is where our troop ended up four years later anyway. We had several really nice well designed patrol camp boxes laying around that nobody except the adults used. Scouts hated them, so we ended up lending them to new troops. Barry

Probably not, but it depends on the adults. I remember my Webelos watching the scouts during a troop visit lash a flag pole together. It became pretty obvious the scouts didn't know their lashings. They struggled for about 15 minutes before the ASM jumped in and cussed them out, using some pretty rough language. The troop was taken off our top two list. The discussions can become pretty extreme on this forum and I can see the difficulty of new leader molding their reality into the idealistic world being described on the forum. No adults doesn't necessarily mean NO adults. But, putting scouts in an environment where they feel free to express themselves (and fail) without adult intervention is challenging. We call that a safe place. This forum likes to use the 100 yard separation rule between patrols and adults, to describe the idealistic independence intended for patrols. But it's not really so much about about the physical separation that is important as it is providing the atmosphere of independence for scouts to feel a sense of free thought. In truth, Patrol method is messy even in the best boy run programs and the chaos challenges the adults' patience. Patrol Method is more about adult reactions to scouts' decisions than the actual scouts' decisions. End of the world, no of course not. But two adults standing nearby stomping their feet to stay warm can be a lot more challenging. A Little side story on our Safe Place philosophy; because of low impact rules, camp sites for high adventure patrols are sometimes so small that tents are set up next to each other. As a result, we made a rule that what is said in the tent stays in the tent. However, after a few nights of young male adults telling stories with a language that would make a sailor blush (not the Marines of course), I once mentioned during breakfast that while we have the rule of what is said in a tent stays in a tent, parents (I used parents for more impact) are literally just on the other side of the wall of their tent. That helped a little, but not as much as you would think. Barry

Well, I'm not sure what we are disagreeing about. You set a trap to hold me accountable to my opinion. But it was an impossible trap because I was presenting acquired knowledge, not some quick argumentative theory. Acquired knowledge is very powerful and hard to counter without comparative knowledge. And maybe I have an unfair advantage, my profession involves acquiring experimental data for public safety. So, I know the difference. I've said before, I learned early in life that one has to balance education with life experiences to value both education and life experiences. How does one model moral principles without proving those principles in the experiences of real life? I guided our scouts in the same lesson application simply by pushing them into outdoor adventures while balancing their decisions with the Scout Law and Oath. Sounds simplistic, I know. But life is a mirror that exposes our true nature of character (or lack of it). Once we see who we are, and we learn who we want to be, we have a simple guideline to change. The character habits the scouts developed from those experiences are very real. Barry

I gave a clear answer. Life’s collection of knowledge is data, no matter how it was collected. You can take it or leave it of course just like all the experience data that posters provide on this forum. If not, then what would be the point of requesting information from experienced members on subjects like, Starting a new troop: budget items. Collected experience data isnt always noted, recorded, and stored away because who would expect some shortridge down the road of life challenging that knowledge to sway opinion against our integrity. After all, if a person has the knowledge gained from the experience of starting a new troop, why would that person expect that data to be challenged? Is it so really so hard to believe girls are different from boys? Barry

Call the DE or Committee Commissioner, explain the situation and ask if they know of a troop that can loan a couple of tents, stoves and cooking equipment. There may even be a Chartering Organization with a defunct troop looking to move their equipment. Barry

Sure. A family therapist visited our school system in 1992. Really good stuff. Barry

Don’t be silly. Who saves articles, publications, records lectures and videos over the years just to save proofs for shortridges 30 or 40 years in the future? Then there are life experiences of our children, after school group activities, church youth groups, youth sports, and so on. I of course don’t expect everyone to except my opinions and experiences, but I’m still expressing them. This is a forum. Barry

Lol, you must be a lawyer. As an engineer, I don’t see this as positive and negative, I see it as information to chart a course torward a goal. Or not. If the information proves the goal impossible, then either the goal must be changed or abandoned. If an adult is called a Boy Scout today because of his behavior, whether or not he was ever near a scout program, are they commenting on his camping skills or his social actions? Will being called a scout 20 years from now be a complement? What are your goals for the program? Barry

Nope, it’s not a new revelation. Data was acquired over years of life. Barry

Lol, all data is generalized and is usually the motivation (or not) for new concepts and changes. Generalized data is the difference between success and failure. Most Fortune 500 companies don’t make a move without the support of generalized data. Barry

The instinctive nature of prepubescent boys is big picture dreamers. Patrol method forces them to practice working details. The instinctive nature of prepubescent girls is details and micro organization. Organization part of Patrol method is easy for them. Add to that, girls will bring in more adults without a patrol method experience. Patrol method is a dying art. History supports my theory. Webelos III is inevitable, but the girls will have fun. Barry

Explorers and Crews are different because of puberty. The advantage of patrol method for boys growth is gone after age 14. My point is adults will make the program work to their desire no matter what the scouts get out of it. Those adults have been around for almost 100 years.

😂 Of course it will work. The two largest troops in our district are also the least boy run and most advancement driven adult run troops. Where there is an adult will, there is an adult way. Barry

I don't know if this is true, but back when this training was ramping up 20 or so years ago, some posters on this and other forums wondered if the training material was as much a deterrent as it was training. In other words, it is meant to scare off predators considering the BSA as a source. Back then we only had to take the course every 2 or 3 years. Barry

Which goes to my response to Rememberschiff's parents' complaints about National requiring registration to get more money. If a parent wants to donate an hour but doesn't want to join as a leader, dropping the fee might make that decision a little easier. Barry

Don't know. If my memory serves me, National started requiring counselor registration in the mid 90s sometime. It wasn't a big deal because a fee wasn't required. Up until then, they general reasoning was MB counselors were not involved with scouting, but experts in the subject of the MB. Sources for counselors has changed a lot in the last 30 years. Barry

As a parent who gets asked for fees of just about everything involving our children, I could druther on and on. Instead, let's at least respect the struggle some scouters are having to deal with. Parents and volunteers are struggling through a lot of major changes recently. National doesn't have a reputation of using a shoehorn to warm volunteers into their new policies. Barry

Ah the condescending trigger words defense. Let's flip it back around; what about basing the uniform not required policy on limited family budgets? Bellyaching? Does National have a choice? Originally, MB Counselors weren't required to pay a fee for their registration. Barry

You bring up the major reason new troops struggle with a boy run program. Adults by their nature feel the need to constantly measure success, so when they don't know what success looks like, they grab the books. In most cases, the advancement check list. Then they start driving the program toward building a program of knocking off requirements on checklist because that's an easy measure of success. Problem with that is the goal of scouting is develop ethical and more decision makers, not rank patch collectors. I would suggest that your future leaders visit a few different troops to get a basic understanding of the program. VERY BASIC understanding. I once picked five troops to observe typical PLC meetings. All five had a completely different style. I took a few ideas and then developed our own style. Scoutmaster minutes and BORs are the same. Just a few visits to get an understanding. Then I would basically follow T2Eagle's suggestions while adding the purchase of the SPL and PL Handbooks to use those as your guide to running the program. They are very basic, but have just about everything a troop needs to function as a youth run program. Actually, give them to the scouts and let them use them to run the program, with you in the background throwing out a couple of suggestions, based from the handbooks. New troops have an opportunity to build a team relationship that established program struggle to develop, because the adults and scouts are starting on the same level of experience. That allows an opportunity for the adults and scouts to work together as a team. That is a big advantage because the scouts will feel they are part of the leadership from the beginning. That can sometimes take months or years with some units. finally, don't be afraid of change. A lot of troops develop habits that don't accomplish anything to scout growth. I once visited a troop with a tradition of breaking camp 9:00am Sunday morning so they could get the equipment unloaded at the CO church before the parking lot filled up for church service. The scouts ate Poptarts while folding up their tents and loading the trailer. Now where is the fun in that kind of program? I asked the leader, why don't you get back to your church at 1:00pm and do program all morning. Nobody had ever thought of that. Making that change shifted the program back to the scouts. Lots of good advice from a lot of good scouters here, so don't be afraid to ask questions. I know it's a burden talking about scouting stuff, but we seem to find the will. Barry

Great response. I couldn't have said it better. Adults are good at coming up with pragmatic reasons for taking the fun out of scouting. Barry

A Mission Statement and Plan of Action are two different things. Typically the Plan of Action is the "how-to" for the Mission Statement. Your appear to have a good plan that is ready to move forward with action items. But I'm not clear why you want a Mission Statement. Are the BSA and Mission and Vision Statements not enough? I'm not suggesting anything, just trying to understand what you are asking for. Barry

Your husband is going to attend all the scouting activities with your son? Your sons success in situations like these is very dependent on his parent's actions with the troop. These things are complicated and there are so many variables that we can only advise so much. I had one scout with a challenging behavior where most of the concerns about him came from other parents, not the scouts or scout leaders. I don't know where you husband fits in this dilemma, but I feel like you are going to have to get more involved. I hope I'm wrong. I know you have your hands full with the GS Troop. I've been where your SM is at. There are so many variables to find balance. Barry