Eagledad

No, 2000 was when they required parents attend and have meetings every week. Lions was somewhere around 15 years later when National was also adding other clueless program modifications like adding Leadership as a 4th Method when it was already part of the 8 Aims. Barry

National change the Tiger program in 2020 to require each scout have an attending parent with them at every activity. Up to that point, Tiger membership dropouts was bad, I think around 50% nationally, give or take. I don’t know what National was thinking, but requiring a parent at every activity made the problem worse. Parents of 1st grade parents are bombarded with after school activities and it overwhelms them. They only have so much time in a day to work, cook, and be family. Those parents need a very easy program that fits the schedule and gives them an introduction to scouting. The real problem was forcing toddler age scouts to weekly meetings that wasn’t worth the time of Tiger families. Our pack experimented with different approaches and found one den meeting a month and an optional Pack meeting was satisfactory. Our Tiger membership dropout rate went from 30 % to 3%. Of course we did a few other things to make Tigers easier for the parents as well, but the fewer meetings made the program more appealing during recruitment. Who knows what the folks at National were thinking when they come up with these changes, but they sure weren’t talking to the parents. I sent letters to National of our success with Tigers along with the other issues that Tigers still presences to the larger program. And yet, program changes go in the opposite direction. Two packs in our district dropped Tigers all together and didn’t drop in membership. We found that the Tigers program required double the adults of the rest of the pack to have a successful Tiger program. Dropping Tigers was a nobrainer to save from burnout. There is a very simple approach we used to fix the problems the published program created. Ask the parents what they wanted and give it to them. The simple fact is that when the parents leave the program, they take their kids with them. Barry

Yes, their maturity is closer to toddlers and very demanding of the adults. I think the Wolf/Bear/Webelos programs are adequate and don’t require much tuning. If National really believes membership is reliant on the toddler age group, they should look at something like the Girl Scout program that has a separated more simple program for that age. Professionals say 20 months is the average time to expect from volunteers in any volunteer organization. Experienced has proven that to be about right. Burned out volunteers dredge boring programs that drive families away. Barry

Shorten the program 2 years to prevent burnout. That one change would double the crossovers into the troops. Barry

This solution is an example of why leaders without is not a national issue. Most of the time, the unit will find a solution. Also, intimidation from older is a more common problem. I knew of several troops with the intimidating older scouts. Leaders learn quickly that they better fix it or loose recruits. Barry

Strange discussion. But, if forums do nothing else, they bring out extreme opinions. Over the years folks expressed extreme thoughts like, scouting was dying from lack of gay adult leaders, then it was lack of gay youths, then it was female youths, and then to much god or not enough god or not enough camping, or too much camping and so on. A few extreme opinions doesn’t mean reality. But it does drive interesting discussions. I don’t believe millennial mothers are the pivot point of BSAs success or failure. Helicopter parents are a real problem, but only locally. I also don’t believe the few mothers who are afraid are anymore sexist than those of us who resisted bringing girls into the program because male scouts would be at a disadvantage for growth. interesting I had a discussion with a grandmother last week who is now anti BSA because of admitting girls. She believes scouts are safe on campouts, but she also believes boys are different from girls and need a different scouting experience. Is grandma sexist? I don’t think so, she is experienced with life. But, I expect young parents on the front side of life may not relate. As someone who has developed a lot of BSA membership trend data over the years, I consider myself somewhat an expert on future trends. I believe Covid has done more to upset the future of the BSA than gays, girls, god, and sexual harassment. Covid took the cruise control out of program and forced leaders to become more creative and active, or not. I believe the future is going to be very dependent on just plain survival. Survival will depend on the passion of volunteers wanting a program so much that they will have to think out-of-box to keep their program growing. They won’t get help from the giant anchor of National. And they will have to contend with the juggernaut of the Cub program, which is a serious adult killer burning out leaders. The troop program is easier to manage, but it does rely heavily on the scraps the Cub program leaves them for crossovers. But, the real issue with the troop program is that the majority of volunteers never had a youth scouting experience. That was a coming problem before Covid, but now their is less to temper its problems. Adult are instinctively competitive. It’s a survival thing. The instinct of Scouts however, is games and adventure. Adventure and games develop the mind and body to be ready for competitive adult survival when the youth cross over into adulthood at about 14 years of age. My point is if the adults don’t know how to have fun, they tend to drive the program toward less fun drive towards developing stature. Advancement and leadership will replace adventure and games. I see the future of the troop program becoming more of an after school club for pre teenagers. So, lots to wonder and worry about. But, it will be the passionate adults who will drive the trends of the future program. Where are we going, I have no idea. But we need to fasten our seatbelts because it’s going to be a wild ride. Barry

I agree with qwazse, but I wonder how much of the enthusiasm was generated by passionate adults. I didn't get a comfortable feeling about the youth level of enthusiasm from this form. Of course this is an adult forum, but some of the adults seemed hell-bent and creating success stories. However, the Venturing Crews program does have some success with active girls. Barry

Yes, many challenges. A big one ate the unprofessional professionals at National. My big concern is whether parents want a character building program or an after school program. Barry

After many years of observing BSA units, I find that economics and ignorance are big drivers of unit procedures because few adults understand the BSA vision enough to keep their program compass pointed north. Adults will get what they want one way or another. Council would only step in when they see a liability risk. The next few years will be interesting. Barry

Doesn’t make sense. Barry

I agree with this post. A council in southern Oklahoma merged with the Central Oklahoma council in the early 90s. The southern Council's OA program was considered the hallmark of OA programs in all of Oklahoma while the Central Council's program struggled. The merge required OA members of the southern council drive 90 minutes to meetings in central Oklahoma. The southern OA struggles to survive now. Barry

The BSA is the adults program with a vision of developing the youth into moral and ethical decision makers. Most here who know me know I am very pro youth run. But, I cringe when I here leave it up to the youth. While the main principal of the program is scouts developing character from their free choices, the program has guidelines that the units must work within. That doesn’t mean the scouts can’t be a part of making the decisions, it means they should be part of the team with adults who have experience and wisdom that they can contribute to discussion to provide more content. The point of the discussion shouldn’t letting the scouts choose, the discussion is how to discuss the complexities as a team and work toward solutions as a team. It won’t be easy, but the questions aren’t easy either. Barry

Tap out was always one of the fun parts of the process that scouts looked forward to. Especially at summer camp in front of hundreds of observers. Saying that, the Ordeal is where the scout finds out if he/she are ready and mature enough to be an Arrowmen. Rather that is how it used to be. Barry

I’m not sure my post applies to your experience. I’m saying just because a culture decided to be offended by the innocent and respectful actions of an organization does not make the actions any less innocent and respectful and should be treated with the respect of their intentions. As for your sons experience, I turned down the district recruiting committees offer to take over as the chapter advisor because I didn’t want to deal with the Scoutmasters. I come from a time when Arrowmen were the special forces of scouting. I would have drove the chapter in that direction and I knew I would meet a lot of resistance. Barry

Wow, with friends like this, who needs enemies. I’ve been active in scouting one way or another for almost 60:. In all those years, I have never seen AO show disrespect to the American Indian/idigenous/Native American culture. In fact OAs actions are typically respectful with the intention of showing honor. Now if the culture has changed how it looks at such things, fine, we change to continue showing respect. But done disparage the OA for living the scout law in their efforts. On the other hand, I’m not sure OA can get back to the honor and respect that the organization once had because our culture doesn’t like individualism that sets piers apart. OA is/was an honor program that recognized scouts who set themselves apart as outdoorsmen and servants. They used to be the go to experts of camping skills. And, they usually were humble in their service to others. The organization used to require a scout prove discipline and maturity of camping and serving. Now many troops want all their scout to get elected in to the organization no matter their experience or maturity. Seems there is no real desire for a true honor program in the BSA. Barry

Thank you for the wonderful post, mrjohns2. Barry

You keep say “the attention span of girls” as if girls are different. What are you comparing against. I’m not confronting you, I’m just curious how you came to that conclusion. Barry

My apologies for replying so late. I don't think an explanation would be futile. In fact, stories of how to deal with introverts can help other scout leaders in the forum. Introverts can have anxiety from any personal communication with strangers or even known acquaintances if the subject subject mater is challenging. And challenging can even mean something positive like a boss asking the introvert to come to their office to present them with a raise. Introverts struggle with making choices of meeting people to knowingly advance their personal situation, or to not meet that person to ease the anxiety of the meeting. I have worked with many scouts with introvert tendencies, some very severe. I have lots of great bragging success stories of these scouts. I believe scouting to be a wonderful program for these scouts because they are introduce into a team atmosphere where they learn to develop trust in the members of their team and contribute to a common goal. But, the key to scouts with introvert characteristics is to start them on the team, but in a minimum expectations. I had one scout terrified to have an acting role in front of the group. I learned this when he was asked to present the colors on a campout. No problem, we instead moved him with the scouts who presented the colors without any expected actions. Two years later he was leading ceremonies.. There is more, but that is the basic idea. But, I agree whole heartedly with Sentinel947 that participating with the patrol in songs and skits is a HUGE team building tool. They were in fact the very tools used for our Webelos program to get scouts ready for the troop program. And one doesn't have to be a great singer, or even sing at all. They can participate by leading the group or holding props. The main thing is being part of the team. A mother of a severe introvert in our troop sent a letter to the Council SE explaining how their son was so shy and introverted that even his teachers were making fun of him. In fact, they sued the school over it. In her letter, she explained that the troop was only place where he felt safe to be himself because all his patrol mates accepted him for who he was. He eventually matured to be a Patrol Leader. She couldn't enough about the scout program. Last I heard, that scout was an officer on a nuclear submarine. As I said, I can't think of a better youth program that helps youth develop the courage, confidence and habits for fitting in society. A troop is cultural experience at a youth size. Hope that helps. Barry

Hmm, how should a troop deal with the scout who doesn’t take a turn cooking? Or cleaning? Or tearing down camp? Or……..? Or…….? There is a method behind the madness. But, some youth just aren’t ready to be part team program. They eventually will figure it out, or leave. But the program shouldn’t change for the rest of the scouts. Barry

This is a big problem, I agree. I believe a big part of the problem is adult leaders who never had a youth scouting experience. Without the experience of adventure and the social dynamics of camping in the woods, these adults have to rely on measurable experiences, which is advancement. Advancement drives annual schedules and shapes scouting activities. Character development is a function of rank and advancement sing-offs, not scouts’ choices judged within the interpretations off the law. Theses adults are afraid to let any scout not earn the Eagle. And you can’t blame these adults, training doesn’t emphasize growth from right or wrong choices. Allowing scouts to make choices and decisions in their activities requires giving them the freedom to define the parameters of right and wrong and adults today simply don’t allow them that freedom, partially because it’s not pushed in training. I’m not sure I agree here. I believe the Eagle should be a personal goal of jumping through hoops beyond the typical troop outdoor program. The troop outdoor program should be complex enough to attract the maturity of older scouts. The Eagle requirements should be more than what the typical troop outdoor program offers, and require more than the typical ambition of the average scout. Where we fail the Eagle program is we adults push the scouts to do more than their maturity wants in their program. Eagles are for above average scouts, and we adults should have the courage to let the scouts choose. My observation is that most scouts in a program that challenges them at all ages don’t really feel the drive for Eagle until they are at least 15. Most troops think 15 is to late, but most of our Eagles had their ECOH within a few months of their 18th birthday. They were simply having too much fun to focus on the advanced Eagle requirements in their early years. Ironically, the troop that puts more focus on adventure than advancement, will have a more Eagles. A lot more Eagles because it’s really just a natural progression for the maturity of older scouts. Barry

As a SM, I was called at least once a week by a parent with an opinion of something they saw that bothered them. Sometimes more than 1 a week, rarely less. And you would be amazed of what bothers parents. Every SM has a strong opinion to someone, especially if they firm with how the program is run. All I can say is if SMs, or strong leaders, don’t learn the art of listening, they will have continued frustration and drama. Add the skills of patience and humility because sometimes the SM, or strong leader, is wrong. Barry

For troops that want the benefits of scout growth from patrol method, summer camp gives the scouts the most growth of the year because of the intense outdoor program in the number of days forces scouts the habits of servant lifestyles. However, that growth requires older scouts to work along side the younger scouts. Young scouts learn by watching older scout mentors and older scout grow comes from mentoring (NOT Babysitting) the younger scouts. Troops with a program of older scout mentors working with younger scouts in a patrol method environment typically have a good attendance of older scouts to their summer camp. A common comment from parents after summer camp is the troop brought home a more mature son then the one that left for camp. I say all that because summer camp should be a troop priority for scout growth and patrol unity. HA is also important for growth and opportunities, but should be secondary to the summer camp program. One last comment; I encourage troops to push high adventure to their whole troop, not just the younger ones. I realigned my thinking when our 11 year old tenderfoot who had been racing bicycles for 3 years wasn't allowed to attend a biking HA trek. He knew more about bicycling than all the rest of the scouts added together and had more miles of riding than some adults have in cars. Of course physical and mental maturity are required for to match the activities, but, there are many activities 11 and 12 year old scouts can do. The idea that only older scouts should do HA is one reason the BSA program as a whole is struggling. Troops should be adventure programs, not First Class advancement programs. The last thing a 14 year old scout wants to do is repeat their first three years of pushing young scouts to advance. Older scouts enjoy teaching and mentoring young scouts in adventure. Barry

Yes, but he was a paid professional. I don’t know how much he can no. Barry

The best DE I ever worked with was a retired engineer. He was also a Silver Beaver with a very good 20 history as a Scoutmaster. He was an idea guy, so we got along well and started a few district activities. What did him in was being assigned the council summer camp coordinator. It was a thankless job that took him away from his wife too much. The problem with any volunteer type organization is talented workers keep getting more responsibilities until they are sucked dry. I’m sure our DE would have stayed another 10 years if he hadn’t taken the summer camp coordinator job. Barry

The situation isn't just Scouting, but any organization that relies on volunteers to run the program. And, it is a double complex realty because volunteers are generally not trained or have expert skills for their expected tasks. In fact, volunteer work IS on the job training. Which is why units with adults who had a youth scouting experience are usually far ahead of units with no youth scouting experience. As for volunteers with a military experience, they typically respect the leadership a bit more than non military experienced volunteers. The most entertaining units to watch are the ones with a main leader who has military experience, but the rest of the adults don't. Barry