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Everything posted by Eagledad

  1. I'm talking about the bigger picture of the mission of developing character. Growth is based on the experience of making decisions, not watching role models. Role models are reinforcement of what is learned from the Patrol Method experience. Barry
  2. And who determines a persons BAD character? That is the what MattR is talking about. Yes, scouting builds character, but how. And while I agree, role models of good character contribute to building good character, a good Patrol Method experience is the main driver of growth, even among role models of bad character. Patrol Method forces the scout to make decisions for other scouts that reflects their character back at them. Now, try to explain how that works to a new parent. And really I should say mothers, because fathers more often accept the fun of the outdoors program without get
  3. I can see that Matt. But, I believe the how of the vision has always been a challenge for scouting. How can a program build character. Luckily, the fun part (outdoors and camping) are the over riding attraction. I learned over the years, that the vast majority of scouts join the program because their' parents motivated them to join. And, 99 percent of them started in cubs. My issue with the BSA is that they are driving youth away because the cub program burns out the adults. Last I checked, around 50 percent of Webelos don't crossover into a troop after graduating from the pack. That doe
  4. I'm kind of lost in this thread, are posters here suggesting that the BSA needs to mold itself to each individual post-modern nomad youth to have a successful appeal? What then is THE goal, THE vision, THE mission? My high school teacher son says he learned how to approach his students (post-modern nomads?) from his scouting experiences 20 years ago. Help make this clearer for me. Barry
  5. Yes, it is difficult. The struggle even for commissioners is knowing when to give unit leaders some rope to make their program. We had a very good commissioner with a lot of experience, but he wasn't as boy run as I wanted the our program, so we had some difficult discussions. However, he always let me try my ideas to see how they worked out. Every leader has a different vision and style, so the commissioner has to have some patience. to know when to guide, or just watch. Commissioners need to be good at understanding the program and the BSA Guidelines for running the program. Units get i
  6. Thanks I ran into one of my Eagle scouts a few years ago. He had two kids by that time. I don't remember how we got on the subject, but he told me that one of my SM Minutes made a big difference in life and probably why he got his Eagle. The story I told was similar to this one, a hero that made a difference. I learned over the years that boys dream of being hero's. I don't know if girls have the same dreams because I don't remember my daughter running around pretending to be hero so much as she pretended to be the princess. I taught in the adult courses that the better troops a
  7. The program focuses on a source of morality, but beating over the head is dependent on the unit leaders. If that is your experience, then your CO is probably religious and has a higher priority on religion. But, most units, even religious ones, don't beat it over the heads. No, that is living a servant life. Not the same thing. The spirit, god, God, rock, or whatever is the source. That doesn't mean a scout will connect the oath and law to a spiritual life, most don't. The program develops a servant habits, which are habits of a ethical and moral lifestyle. The scout will have t
  8. Funny thing is membership exclusion is really about adults. I had numerous scouts who either one or both parents where ashiest or gay, but they wanted their kids to make that decision on their own when they had some life's experiences. Scouting was part of the life's experiences they wanted for their kids. When the gay activist started to target the BSA, they found quickly they weren't getting any traction with petitioning gay adults. So, they changed tactics and used gay scouts as their target, which worked. But, it was the adults the program didn't want anyway. A program with the princi
  9. First off, I'm not cutting out text to change the narrative. Seems we need to say that these days. Two questions come to mind with your post qwazse. First, my observation is that parents for 90 percent of the scouts make the choice for the kids to join scouting. So, I'm wondering how fits in your theory. Second, while I can see the idea of a Federation of Scouting happening, I think that is many years down the road. A lot more options for girls than boys at this moment. A good group of visionary professionals could get this ball rolling in the BSA. But, I haven't seen good professio
  10. That's an interesting suggestion. Barry
  11. Hmm, you only have to look at the Canadian Scouts to see how total inclusion will effect the membership numbers. Last I heard was that Canadian Scouts was at 40% to 50% of the organizations membership before going total inclusive 20 years previous. Your post suggest that a total inclusive program would have little effect on the core principles that drive the BSA Vision and Mission. But as others have mentioned, religion is a core principle of the BSA program. Looking at the Canadian Scouts, giving up on some core principles will not improve membership. much. In fact, the risk is membersh
  12. I'm not sure what you mean, and maybe you aren't in a good position for a pragmatic discussion anyway. From the very beginning of this thing, most of us knew the BSA would pay. It's a litigious society. But, the question of, does the BSA organization deserve the blame, will be a popular discussion topic for a long time. It's a gnat the size of an elephant. And by the way, I don't cut off parts of text for some kind of advantage. Not my style. I respond honestly to what I think the poster is saying. If I misunderstood the poster, I'm mature enough to admit my mistake. I desire an hone
  13. "the court and laws are holding them accountable to a standard of negligence and violation of their duty to care, hire, protect, and, etc." Yes, that. Strang! You sure are taking big swipes at that gnat. My post was just a general explanation for why so many want the discussion. "hurtful or harmful about upping the ante with YPT and YP efforts". What? Barry
  14. This will be a popular topic as long as the BSA organization is blamed for the abuses. Barry
  15. You can rest easy, I'm here. Now, what's this about giving animals parking tickets. We need to get on top this. Barry
  16. Really! This is very offensive. I’d like to see your polling data. Barry
  17. Of course, your reputation for self-righteous posts proceeds this post. Condescending implications are immature at the very least and rarely ever produce positive outcomes. In fact, it usually produces the opposite results. There is no doubt you would be jumping into anyone treating your kids what you claim you are justified doing on this list. Scouting is exactly about teaching scouts how to use the scout law for giving a personal perspective without being demeaning or insulting. Intellectual discussions requires to first respect the other persons and presenting oneself without u
  18. When a poster threatens, DARES, or intimidate the list to agree with their opinion, then something has to change. Barry
  19. Yep, adults require as much, if not more, teaching than the scouts. I taught a boy run and patrol method class in our council for two years. Let's require something like that for both the SM and CC. We kind of have the camp that Fred describes. While troops can camp there (we sent our patrols there when they wanted to camp without adults back in the day), the facilities were built with teaching in mind. It also has a COPES course and Climbing/Rappelling tower and pool for unit activities and adult certifications. I agree with Eagle94's concerns, I'm sure Fred does also, but th
  20. So, a little advice from someone who has this experience with 16 scouts. I ran the meeting basically like a troop where the two patrols were still part of one program. Running seperate dens requires at least twice the number of volunteers. easier to find one leader with three assistance than 3 leaders and 3 assistance. As a SM, I personally don't believe scouts need all that much Patrol Method experience to be successful in the troop. Our troop has a very good program to get new scouts up to speed. I instead believe they need confidence for a troop programs. And they way I did that
  21. I wasn't the poster who suggested weeding out. But, there are several posters who have said basically the same thing, not by the traditional scouters wanting the go back to the old ways, but by the progressive members looking to bring scouting into a better light. Neither are bad, but balance is required to come up with positive ideas. Because of my experience, I was often called by districts and council to visit and counsel struggling programs. In just about all cases, those programs struggled because they did not understand BSA mission or the process toward that mission. Improving a uni
  22. Weed out is a bad use of terms. JTE or something similar shows the unit adults where they need to improve. In most cases, units that don't improve don't last long anyway. But, some further training could help units that struggle to understand the principles of the list. And, as far as know, data on these list wasn't collected. But, that would be a indicator to learn and react to trends. Barry
  23. Good posts. I agree with all of it, but you left out one very big problem that is getting in the way of running good units; Top Heavy programs that burn out the adults. As evidence to how National suffocates it's members. National required additional adults to the tiger program in 2000 that resulted in lower Cub membership, which resulted in lower Troop member around 2005. 2005 is the age the Tigers in 2000 would have joined Troops. National needs to reduce the management requirements for adults, especially in the Cub program. Taking Tigers out of the Cub program would be a good start to redu
  24. They already do it with programs like Journey to Excellence. A troop doesn't have to be ranked against other troops to know how it performs to the BSA expectations when they are asked to thank themselves on the list. We called it something different 25 years ago, but the Journey to Excellence is a good shoehorn to guiding troop programs. I also think the Tour Permit worked for the same reason because it gave expectations to insure the troop traveled safely and had properly trained scouters for the activities planned. National gave that up, I don't know why, but it was clear enough th
  25. Good response, thanks. Let me start with your uniform statement; I'm not sure where the negative uniform in the youths eyes is comi8ng from. My observation is more the adults that think it negative and project that on the youths. But, when talking to most scouts, they don't mind the uniform, and in fact, the girls scouts new uniform has gone back to the more traditional scouting style. All that being said to point out that we hear a lot of adults perceptions of the program that don't seem to hold true in the general perception. Either the perception is a personal bias, or it's a local bi
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