Eagledad

This has nothing to do with the intrinsic value of either gender. It's about providing a program that gives each the best opportunity for growth. We could just call the genders A & B, so the biases don't cloud the discussion. Barry

I learned over the years with Cub Scouts, that the scouts usually do what the parents guide them to do. Now that can mean the scout wants out and the parent agrees. But, I did pretty extensive research with the Webelos and I'm convinced that adult burnout contributes to at least 70% of the Webelos non-crossovers. That is conservative. I even started a district program called Longbow that encouraged troops to help the Webelos den leaders provide a fun program. I killed the program because the target group of burned-out leaders wouldn't attend any of the activities to communicate with the troop leaders. The program was a great success for active Webelos leaders looking for more adventure. But, that wasn't the purpose of the program and I didn't want to add another district program to maintain if it wasn't productive. As for the Troop scouts, the BSA looses more scouts from the first-year scout group than any other scouting age group. I found the problem is that the sudden jump from an adult association (including parents, teachers, cub leaders, and so on) to relying on scout-age leaders is more traumatic than most people realize. At first, the 10 year olds are excited that the scouts run the show, but once they realize that their safety of surviving in the cold dark woods is dependent on the scouts, and not the adults who have protected them all their life, their perspective changes. I also learned that if a scout hasn't quit by the end of their first summer (summer camp), that scout will likely hang around for several years. This isn't a new issue with the BSA, I found this huge first-year scout dropouts as far back as the 60s, which was as far back as I could find records. One idea for keeping first-year scouts is having an ASM who works as a team with the patrol leaders as a kind of PL assistant. A rarely seen assistant. The new scout and parents are instructed to call the ASM when they are unsure of what is going on. The ASM will gently guide them back to the patrol leader to help them get their information. The goal is to show the scout and family that the PL knows what they are doing and everything will work out fine. The trick is for the ASM to help the scout and family communicate with the PL to get them used to trusting the PL. It takes a little practice for the ASM and PL to work as a team, but the ASM is usually completely out of the picture within 3 or 4 months, just in time for summer camp. Barry

I have 40 years of working with youth, some training, and a couple of mentors who are professors in child psychology and life in general as a father and husband. I've experienced enough to know. Well that's a nice generality. I don't even know how to respond to such a generalization, but it is a bit condescending honestly. Just what do each gender offer that the other will learn that isn't in the Scout Oath or Law? Before you go on with your observations, the actions and reactions of youth are generally instinctive. Someone said boys like to hang around boys. Well yes, and if you watch girls, they aren't running around trying to find private space. Until puberty, hanging groups is a primitive natural defensive response of safety from predators. While that response isn't required in the modern day, it is still there, and understanding it helps in how to work with the scouts. Mean girls? More generalization of not understanding human instinct. As girls get closer to puberty, they become INSTINCTIVELY more competitive and aggressive in a passive-aggressive sort of way. I had many discussions with my daughter at this age. I can assure you that I have vast experience in that whole statement and can say, your conclusion is not normal reality. And, you certainly can't use victims, or observers, of sexual assaults and abuse to generalize what a person before or after puberty will gain from the experience in the normal world. Even divorce changes how a youth approaches their perspective of relationships. You can't pick extreme examples of humanism experiences to build ONE program for 50 to 100 youth. Let's stick to scouting to put some boundaries on our opinions. Wow, hmm. Shesh. Gender separation doesn't create integrity or character. Practicing the values of integrity and character develops integrity and character. I can't find anything in the Oath and Law that has anything to do with gender. OK, I even looked up intrinsic human values and still didn't quite understand the question in reference to this discussion. But, I'm wondering if you view this discussion as males vs females. I know my part hasn't approached it that way. But, If males are different than females physically, is it so far out there to believe they instinctively and intellectually are different as well? Barry

Yes. Each gender grows and matures differently and mixing the genders dilutes the strengths of the program for developing character and integrity. Barry

Boys and girls are different. That includes developing behavior maturity, or character in the specific case of scouting. Girls and boys have different instinctive behaviors that add to developing maturity in moral and ethical decision-making. So, mixing genders can, and does, interfere with the best potential of developing mature decision makers of integrity. For the best development of character and integrity, some folks would rather use the environment of single gender units, at least up to puberty. Barry

Just curious, is there room in your program for units that want to be single-gender? Is it optional? Barry

Here is a timely article. Seem a few Native Americans like their heritage. https://www.foxnews.com/lifestyle/pro-native-american-activists-fight-save-indigenous-traditions-nationwide-war-wokeness Barry

Sadly, true. It's political in it's nature. So it's emotional. Not logical. Barry

The Tiger age Daisies scouts in the GSA are a separate program from the older Brownies. That makes managing the groups much easier with age appropriate activities and materials. The BSA doesn't have to quit recruiting First Graders, just develop a separate program. The could even add pre-school age youth. Trying to plan a Pack Meeting that is fun for both toddlers and near preteen scouts is very challenging. Barry

I here what you are saying, I also always had balanced growth of both youth and adult membership. My nature is problem solving areas where performance is lacking. Whether in my job, home, even scouts, I like to evaluate and search to improve performance. And I have done a lot, A LOT, performance evaluation over the years of why the BSA is loosing membership. And it comes down to National changing policies for the purpose of increasing membership. The changes made in the 70's basically shifted adventure part of the program to more focus on advancement. When you look at the policy changes the since the 70s, many are small, but clear shifts from adventure toward advancement, with the bigger purpose of increasing leadership. I can go on and on of how changes perpetuated membership decline. But, I will mention just one for now what I believe is near the top of the changes that pushed the membership decline; adding Tigers to the Cub program. This is a complex issue, but in short, Tigers forced adult burnout in the program it made the program so long. A few numbers that I gathered 25 years ago was that less than 25% of families who joined the BSA as Tigers joined a Troop five years later. The most devastating statistic is that 50% of Webelos crossed over to the Troop. That is a huge number. And when I researched why families dropped out after Webelos, the basic answer was the program was boring. A little more research and I found that most Webelos leaders were burned out and didn't provide a fun program. The troop program is completely different and would most likely boost scouts toward fun again, but once a family wants out, it's hard to change their minds. If I were put in charge of National, I would change many parts of the program, mostly back to the what made the program successful, but I would start by making the Cub program a 4 year program, maybe even 3.5 years, to starve out adult burnout. Barry

Yep, we grew from 15 scouts to 100 in five years and I'm convinced it was because of our adventure program. Barry

My experience is older scouts are stubborn about change. Much easier to kind of let them keep their old habits while starting change with the new scouts. It takes a little creativity, but can be done. Barry

When women were brought in as Troop leaders, I remember the sudden fear of axes in wood tool’s training. Many commented that saws would be their troops go to tool. I reminded them that the saw caused more trips to the emergency room than any other wood tool in scouting. One of the things I loved about scouting was the teaching of using tools properly and safely. I remember well how to use the hammer and saw properly at my first Cub Scout Den meeting at the age of six. From the simple poncho to mighty axe, a few simple instructions and some practice turns 12 year old middle schoolers into experts. And I passed along many of those skills onto my scouts. As I explained to timid troop leaders in woods tools training, fear is contagious and is extinguished with training. Then I trained them to use both the axe and saw safely. Barry

Yep. If parents are waiting for more safety policies, I can't imagine what they would be other than reporting the incidents at higher levels so they don't get covered up. We had a lot of discussions here about safety improvements and nothing significant was brought up, mostly because BSA policies are pretty good. Funny, you don't hear parents being worried about schools when sexual abuse is report every week in the news. I will say I have observed parents of units hesitating to act on issues of adults making bad decisions. Not just abuses, but issues where adults need correction. I think it's because they don' t want to get involved being a bad guy. I have watched these things ignored mainly because nobody will act. It is concerning and I spoke about it often adults in training. Leaders need to stand up and protect scouts from adults making bad discissions. Barry

This is a really good suggestion. When I think back of the several troubled scouts we experienced, the parents were the key to our decisions, successes and failures. Some parents are the cause of the problem and cause further unforeseen complications (drama). Some parents are all-in for helping provide a positive environment to give their son positives role models and experiences of good behavior. It is remarkable to witness the change. A few become great adults. I taught in adult leadership that scouters HAVE to see themselves only as part of the parents team to develop their kids into adults. You are just a team member, Nothing more. Being a Scoutmaster does not raise your influence higher than the teacher, Sunday school teacher, coach or even the parents themselves. So, if the parents don't want to respect the situation as it is, then you can expect no support, and likely a lot of hassle. Start with talking to the parents. Barry

Folks always seem to revert to extremes when discussing the uniform. The uniform is part of scouting, so don’t make less than that. The uniform gives the youth identity and a tool for developing character. The community responds to the uniform with fondness, respect and support. The uniform is part of the romantic adventure to the image of scouting. Make the most of it and have fun. Barry

Piers and role models set the expectations. In cubs, our den leaders wore the uniform and encouraged unity. In the troop, the PLC set the expectation. of course it will never be perfect, but the uniform is part of the fun of scouting. Have fun. Barry

My high school teacher son said his experience of low quality schools to high quality schools come down to expectation from the faculty. My experience as a scout leader from cubs to council was the same. Scouts will make an effort if they are appreciated for it. You are not giving the scouts the opportunity to shine. Even a scout shirt and football pants shows willingness to show their pride of being a scout. Barry

Our town use to include the scouts in emergency prep drills, but then liability became an issue for a real emergency. Tornadoes are common around here. Leaving youth out of the process is safer and less risky for the community. Barry On a personal note, Albuquerque is home to me. I lived near the Sandia mountains as a youth.

But not to ready. The largest group of first year scouts that quit our troop in 6 months had experience camping every month during webelos. They were simply bored. Part of the adventure of being in a troop is learning scout skills from other scouts. A few scouts skills to get them wanting more is ok, but cubs with first class experience tend to leave because the troop program doesn’t live up to the hype. I used to teach webelos leaders that we would rather have scouts with no outdoors experience who are confident standing in front of groups and mingling with older scouts than trained campers. Our scouts can teach anyone to camp, but the shy scout or camping expert are much harder to mix in the program because they tend to want adult guidance to make them comfortable. Barry

I respect what you are saying, but we will have to agree to disagree. Barry

I disagree. Almost anyone in the world can identify a Boy Scout uniform. It represents character and integrity. Even after the Girl Scouts did away from their traditional uniform, it was still the uniform used in movies because it identifies with the organization worldwide. I understand that the GSUSA is moving back toward that uniform. Barry

Success comes from implementing a program that works toward a successful vision. The BSA lacks leadership that believes, much less understands the vision of developing moral and ethical decision makers. I get it, I struggled convincing many parents that giving scouts the independence to learn from their decisions in an outdoors environment is a successful path for building citizens of character and leaders of integrity. But, if organization leaders don’t believe it, how can the users believe in it. Barry

Unfortunately, I've seen many heavy handed non-religious adult troops decompose. Sadly, one does not have to be religious to be zealot. Barry

Anyone heard of LDS troops? There are a lot of COs that require church membership because the units are part of their youth program. I know of one Troop that only registered home schoolers because the Troop was the socializing part of their program. I think it's a benefit for the BSA that Scouting can be a tool for programs that need an organize youth program. We are likely to see more of it since girls can be member now. Barry