Eagledad

MB Colleges cause a lot more harm that most of us realize. I found while on the District Committee that 70 Percent of our Troops used only Summer Camp and MB Colleges for a major part of their advancement program. They would look for opportunities through the Council for their scouts advancement. They got so used to these outside advancement activities that they lost the knowledge of running their own unit advancement program. One scouter on district made a proposal to change the District MB college. Up to that point, scouts showed up at 8:00 am and were not allowed to leave until 4:00 pm, even if they only wanted one or two classes. Lunch was provided. The proposed changes were having scouts show up to school the night before to speak to the counselors and determine the badges they wanted. They then would learn more about the badge from the counselor and learn when the counselor was making a presentation of the badge. The scout would then fill out the Blue Card with all the counselors information, and take it to their SM, who was probably in the building. The counselors, who attended training by the district the week before, were encouraged to not do one-and-done meetings, but instead arrange to meet the scouts for any required sessions even after the weekend. The scouts were not required to check in and only had to show up for the sessions they signed up for. Lunch was not provided, however, an enterprising person could make and sell sandwiches, chips and drinks. The district committee turned the proposal down because it appeared chaotic. It wasn't the way it was done before. I agree, you are presenting a good idea, but still forcing adult choices. Our troop gave the scouts the information and let them work out. Like OA and Venturing, we let the scouts do outside activities on their own. However, we did not accept any requirements that we signed by the counselor before the scoutmaster signed the Blue Card. We still required they follow BSA MB policies. It was more work on their side, but if they wanted to do the badges, they followed our policies, which were BSA policies. Of course we have our own advancement program and part of that was presenting two MB badges a month. And the scouts could do any badge on their own, so the MB Colleges weren't needed or used much by our scouts. Personally, I wouldn't mind MB weekends if they were done in such a way as to setting an example to the units of following BSA policies. At the same time, district could encourage better training for counselors and create a list for all units to use. Barry

Well, we will just have to agree to disagree. As someone who has created and killed several district and council programs, I have a pretty good understanding of the dynamics for successes and failures. Curing the disease is far easier than creating new programs to attack a symptom. If the cause isn't fixed, not only has one program been killed for the wrong reason, the new one ends up with the same symptoms. Barry

Just because you haven't seen it work doesn't mean it isn't being done. You just haven't seen it done right. We can go into details of how it should be done, but I still think you are just renaming the committee because don't understand how the commissioners should work. AND, I don't think you are seeing the real problem of recruiting the right people for the job. Look at your statement "This eliminates looking for warm bodies or getting stuck with quirky or grievanced former unit scouters. Also, this could be a very meaningful role for the sage older scouter to volunteer in." Quirky grieved former unit scouters? Where did they come from? Recruited? Where do sage older scouters come from? Recruited? Fix the problem because you aren't changing the issue even with a new committee. Then if you want to try a new idea, at least you are starting from a working position. Barry

Hmm. I think you are working the symptoms, not the disease. The reason some districts struggle with commissioners is because they recruited people who don't have the skills for the expectations. There are plenty of capable scouters out there that would love the responsibility, but they aren't being recruited or trained. Blame that on who you want, but isn't a unit service committee just another group of people with the expectations of helping units perform better? Doesn't matter what you call them, what is important is finding the right talent for the expectations. If District can't recruit a performing Commissioner Corp, how are they going to recruit a performing service committee? Same goes with the mentor-ship program; it is a great idea that requires the right people to direct the program toward the vision. Barry

Best of the best.

Yes, likely the Webelos leader experience would have been different without my Troop experience. I wouldn't wish sixteen 9 year olds on anyone without some previous experience. After a few years as a troop leader, I had settled enough to understand that the satisfaction of the Webelos experience (any scout really) was more dependent on fun activities than awards. A good meeting is exhausted Webelos. I think the Activities Pins are good for giving leaders a theme to plan fun activities, but they can easily sway a leaders focus to the awards. My older son's Webelos den leader focused on all his scouts earning all the Activity Pins and my son's last six months of Webelos was not fun. Only one of my sixteen scouts earned all the Activity Pins. At his ECOH a few years later, one of the scouts in that den told me his Webelos experience was some of his fondest memories of scouting. He obviously wasn't in my troop. 😎 Barry

I was the den leader of 16 Webelos. I didn't want it that way, but that was how it worked out. 13 or them aged out at 18 from two different troops. 11 of them earned Eagle. So, there are some success stories. But, a large group does require a different approach and I had experience as a Troop leader, so I took the challenge. We split the group up at each meeting, so I changed the typical one hour meetings three times a month to two 90 minutes meetings a month. Along with my two ADLs, I also required two parents each lead one activity badge at each meeting. Worked very well. Barry

Neckerchiefs are easier than t-shirts! Really? I grabbed a t-shirt the other day to rake leaves, turned out to be the old troop t-shirt. Not that I don't have my old Troop neckerchief I wore as a youth, but I pull it out once every 20 years for a nostalgic moment. Neckerchiefs are OK for scouting, but t-shirts are forever. Barry

Hmm! No troop numbers or patrol patch. Might be a special shirt. Barry

A few months ago I saw a scout wearing the troop t-shirt my son designed in 1995. I asked him if that was still the troop t-shirt today. He said yes. He wasn't impressed when I told him my son designed it in 1995. I guess to him I was just an old man rambling on. The only scouting venues I ever saw scout t-shirts for sale are summer camps. Our scouts typically bought two t-shirts to last through summer camp. We also had backwoods washing machines (five gallon bucket with a plunger) to wash clothes, so shirt for each day was unnecessary. Our recommendation is use the heavier cotton material so the shirts last longer. My sons and I still have ours. We also printed the long sleeve shirts for colder outings. Make sure to use a printer that you can keep using 25 years later. Barry

Everybody has their own personal reason for volunteering, and they are all different. What did you want from the program when you joined. Barry

First off, you don't need to be so defensive, you asked. Accept the opinions a choices. When you say NT, I'm assuming you are talking about the BSA camp. Not only do we not get these questions from outfitters, they actually laugh at our minimal backpacking style equipment lists. Outfitters are more accustomed to clients who bring everything including the kitchen sink. LOL As for your other questions, we brought a lot of the stuff on your list. So is the BSA camp strict with their list. Seems a bit silly. Oh, bicycle riding gloves work very well for paddling cloves. I used the same gloves for both activities. Don't go cheap on dry bags. What I mean is there are a lot of DIY ideas out there that many of our scouts tried and regretted. Get real dry bags. Finally, being a Backpacking style troop, we are minimalist. But you will find that Duluth packs handle A LOT more weight, and are typically packed much heavier than backpacks. The potatoes our outfitter gave us alone was 40 lbs. While we never brought one, we saw a lot of NT travelers bring them. The canoes will be the biggest challenge for scouts. Because most crews are required to make at least two trips at each portage to move their gear, experience travelers in the Northern Tier aren't as concerned with weight like backpackers. So, while some folks advise minimal packing like backpacking, I would suggest that you need to worry about an extra pound or two. You can afford to be a little more comfortable at camp. Worst extreme case is a 3rd trip at each portage. Barry

The answers aren't easy. First, district level positions are chair position, which are generally director level, or even visionary level positions. Most districts don't recruit volunteers with director level skills. In fact, they "likely" don't even have the skills for their specific responsibility like membership chair. So, right at the beginning the district is managed by incompetent volunteers who were recruited only because they were willing to fill a slot. And, district is responsibile for the activity chairman. Our district camporees and Webelorees were getting worse and worse each year. When the committee recognized that most of the directors where volunteering to complete a WoodBadge ticket, we changed the policy of how to recruit district activity directors. But, I can honestly say that the committee still didn't understand their problem, because their solution was to "assign" Scoutmaster to direct these activities. As if all Scoutmasters had the skills to plan and run these events. Where I'm going is that for a district to be the leader in unit quality, quality recruiting is imperative. I would guess that the reason your District Chairman who are burned out by the status quo weren't good recruiters because their committee is reinforcing the status quo. In my opinion, Council should recruit a District Chairman who has the qualifications to RECRUIT. Ideally the District Chairman should also be a visionary and direct the committee toward the goals. But, I would be happy if districts just found someone with recruiting skills to fill their chair positions with competent volunteers. The other area that districts are lacking is a vision or set of goals for the units. I hinted on this moment ago, but think about it, have you heard your committee express goals for standardizing a higher quality programs. Or, are they just doing what they have always been doing. When I was asked by the new district training chairman to help her develop a new district training program, the first thing we did was create a vision to guide our development, then I went out and recruited professional teachers to help develop a plan for reaching the goals. Our program was recognized for a high quality program and the district training chairman earned the Silver Beaver from all those efforts. Finally, quality expectations for units are best set and maintained by the district training committee. The reason I was willing to help the new training chairman was because I knew we could make a big difference with unit quality. Training is the one area where all units typically get continued instruction at the adult level. Training is the one area that can quickly change trends of poor programming. Training has the mechanism to continually inform all the units of acceptable unit performance. I'm not sure if those thoughts help or not. In once since, good recruiting seems logical and even a simple solution for building a quality district committee. But, that isn't so simple if the authoritative folks who control recruiting aren't concerned with qualifications. Probably the hardest step toward a quality district is finding someone with the authority to believe good recruiting is important. And then the next step is the vision. Barry

I found that unit quality at a district level is very dependent on district expectations, or really lack of it. The best district of consistent unit quality have a great training program with activities that mimic expected unit volunteers performance. For example, our district found that units weren't following the recommended BSA advancement procedures because they were using MB University and Summer Camp for the major part of their advancement. Those two programs were even close in following BSA advancement guidelines. So, we changed the way we were doing the MB University and emphasized the BSA advancement guide policies in training. The problem here is that the District expectations change with district chairman changes. So, program quality expectations aren't consistent at the district level either. True, and this can be helped with some training. I managed to prove that by creating a program that trained both Troops and Packs unit leaders in recruiting. However, I believe the elephant in the room is adult burnout. Adult burnout at the cub level causes well over 70 percent of youth from even getting to the Troop program. The Cub program is too complicated for the resources of the average pack. The average parent willingly gives two years of their time. The top heavy cub program demands 5 years from its volunteers. Smaller packs are at a big disadvantage and usually have to reduce their program just to survive. Barry

These words are very profound. I used to teach that observing the oldest scouts in the troop is the best way to measure overall troop quality. If they aren't meeting the goals, then changes have to be made with the whole troop. I have been struggling with the increase of adults without a youth scouting experience for over 25 years. The effects of bringing in female leaders in 1990 was almost immediate and eye opening of how much experience plays in overall program quality. And I give credit to National for responding with new training courses in 2000. But, looking back, training doesn't match a youth scouting experience. In the game of life, youth want adventure, while the adults want measured performance. Adults with a youth scouting experience typically do a better job of balancing measured performance with adventure. I've told the story many times of walking around with a new ASM after he had a few camp outs under his belt. I asked him what he thought of our troop and he said, "I'm surprised to see that even though the adult's camp is almost out of view from the scouts, the scouts' behavior models the adults." swilliams combined troop outings suggestion might be worth a try. Barry

I've said before that while National has failed OA, Arrowmen can still set themselves apart from the other scouts simply by doing scouting at a higher standard. Always in full uniform, always planning and doing service projects, doing the planning for district and council events, high time campers with the reputation of outdoors skills experts. I mention yesterday in another thread that Arrowmen used to be the go to planners for Camporees. If OA wants to be an elite organization, they only have to act like it. But, as someone who has taken on groups to raise the bar, it's a lot of work on the front end to set the vision and follow-thru. First the vision........... Barry

Yeah, me too. Morse Code held my First Class back a few months. I'm reminded of that every time I have a text discussion with my kids. Barry

The typical Scoutmaster back then had a scouting experience as a youth. In fact, most scouters and scoutmasters until the 90s where scouts as youth. Scouting wasn't all that complicated until 90s when YPT and safe scouting guidelines started getting into the weeds of the program. Wood Badge was an advanced leadership course for experienced Scoutmasters. Troops struggle today because most of the scouters joining do not have a scouting experience as a youth. So, they don't have a youth perspective to balance out their adult tendencies. Barry

Where did he get his information? We taught our scouts to start their discussion by showing the sources used for the details of the discussion. Typically the Scout Handbook, field book and MB Books. The scouts in our troop teach Woods tools to the new scouts "and new ASMs" on their first campout. I remember a new ASM Eagle scout came to me saying that he was taught a different technique for sharpening the knife when he was a scout. So we pulled out the Scout Handbook and read that the technique our scout taught was correct. He was very impressed. Barry

I guess the prohibition of skydiving as a scouting activity might seem obvious. But when I was a BSA Scuba Explorer back in the 70s, scuba diving was ranked as the 2nd most dangerous activity behind skydiving. Like scuba diving, skydiving is much safer now than it was then. Barry

Ironic I guess with today's discussions, around here the OA organize running the events. At least they used to. The adults probably help OA with organizing, but you wouldn't see them running them. I guess adults are OK, I'm just not used to it. Barry

Adults run the events? Barry

Being "Called Out" was a public honor in the old days because the candidates was selected by his peers as the best of the best. Getting through "Ordeal" successfully was a personal honor because the candidate had to prove himself, or fail, under high physical and mental expectations. OA has lost respect as an Honor Program because it has taken "honor" out of being selected as a member. Who would have thought that the day has come when saying "No" might be more noble. Barry

I also taught Woods Tools at IOLS and found one hour challenging just because so many adults were so uncomfortable with handling them. Looking back on the last few generations of adult leader courses, I believe the BSA had it right in the 90's because the basic classes were pretty good a defining the big picture, and WB was advanced teaching skills. Instead of reinventing the courses and their structure, they should have added one day specific skills courses. Each course would spend several hours specifically on Outdoor Tools, First Class First-aid, Cooking, leadership development, Patrol Method, Character development and so on. That would give adults more time on specific skills. Or course there would be the challenge of creating these courses several times a year, but if each district took one month with the purpose of offering it for the whole counsel, then adults could count on the course being offered one every month or two. Barry

This has been a big fundraiser for one troop here for 30 years. Barry