Eagledad

>>For all we know, the troop's position may have been stated clearly at the pre-camp meeting (but the dad didn't attend) and in writing in the pre-camp mailing (but the dad didn't read it), and to the scout at camp (but he really wanted to try riflery for fun and the counselor generated a printout because that's his job, even though there was no SM-signed blue card).

>>Makes it hard to do the right thing, doesnt it?

Hi All In my business, I learned to constantly re-evaluate my work and performance so that the product improves. I took that habit with me into scouting and I quickly learned to evaluate the reactions and comments of our customers, or families. I find that 90% of the time their questions or comments are directing our attention to some part of the program that needs some kind of tweaking. Most of the time the tweaking is something simple like educating the families better about our program. We have discussed here that something as simple as "boy run" is not very simple. So I learned to explain boy run, aims and methods, character and so on well enough to paint an accurate picture of our program. Sometimes the changes require changing the adult Leaders around or even asking one to leave. That being said, of course parents can push hard. If you dont want to work with difficult people, dont be a scout leader because parents are protective and ambitious with their kids. You are either working with them or against them. When they feel it is against them, some parents just dont have very good social skills. Your job is to either change their mind or change the way things are and some folks just have a hard time serving people like that. In general, what most are saying is important and means something probably needs a little tweaking even if that tweaking means just explaining things better. I struggle with those: I am the SM and that is the last word kind folks. That isnt a very good example of servant leadership or living the scouting principles. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>How is a kid harmed by gettin' an extra dose of safe handling checkout that isn't done immediately after the original instruction - so that it actually has to be remembered for somethin' longer than 10 minutes?

Hi All I'm just glad folks here agree the SM signature comes before the scout starts work on the badge. That used to be a challenge for many. Of the many thousands of cards I signed, I can't recall a scout every really caring about the MBC. Now I had scouts with neighbors or family friends wanting to be a counselor, so we had them come in and do the paperwork and also get to know a little more about them and their MB skills. The only issue we ever had was the dad who wanted to do all his sons badges. There is know restriction against that, but we had a lot of heavy discussions to why it wasn't going to fly well in our troop. Most folks are reasonable a will do the right thing. They just need to learn why? I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>I'm no big fan of Dr. Laura, however, she ends each radio show with "Now go do the right thing."

>>Are you certain about that? The signature by the SM is permission to start work, and he's to give the name of a registered MBC, but I don't know anywhere where it is stated that the SM has to approve the selection of the MBC.

>>" The real Scouting is dying, a slow death "...it refurbished into tigering, cubbing, and weblows. As I said before ,soon we we will have " diaper Scouts, and girls scouts will be the baby sitters ".

>>A Post Trophy? Past Atrophy? Apt Apathy? A Post Toasty ? Holy Guacamole.

>>Mr. Nelson, before you criticize, I would suggest you do some research. Long live Scouting spirit.

>>I hope all this almost stream of conciousness helps. Adulthood is not easy. Sometimes it is not fun either. We muddle through, one day at a time.

>>While it won''''t solve the Guide to Safe Scouting challenges which demand two adults at a Den meeting, there is a program person who can be a huge aid:

>>No big deal. Why would it be?

HI All Been there and done that. When push finally came to shove and no one else was going to lead, then I explained to all the parents that would be my asstance. First I asked for two dedicated assistance so that if one of us got sick, there were two still there. I didnt do it for Safe Scouting reasons, I did it to maintain adult sanity. Then, the rest of the parents had to take on a month of planning. I planned all the meeting except the theme activities part. The parent of the month led that part. My part was basically flag ceremony, games, and closing. I had my assistance keep up with the advancement paperwork because that can be a lot for 13 boys (17 in my case). Have your meeting and give the parents a basic agenda for the year with themes for each month. Then ask a parent to volunteer for a month. Another way I keep better control and the boys busy is I generally had two activities going on at the same time. I divided the den in half and each half would go to one activity for 20 minutes, then the switch. That does require two parents planning for the same meetings, but I found they like that anyway. The advantage to this is you wont be over worked, your parents will become close to the boys and the den because they are part of the activities and you will have a close group of families. As for wild meetings, there are a lot of ideas here to help that. But the main thing to understand is these are boys and boys like fun, mystery and to be moving all the time. Action and activities. Action and activities. Do as much outdoors as possible. One other thing that helped me a lot with that many boys. I went from three 1 hour Den meetings a month to two 1.5 hour meetings a month. That extra half hour gave me the time for two activities and one week off for a breather and planning. You have come to the right place because there a ton of good ideas here to choose from. Your active parents will come out as they get comfortable. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>Removal may well cause the Scout to walk away from Scouting. Is that what the young man and the Troop need and want?

Hi All A lot depends on your response. Do you want the other scouts to learn from this scouts example? Do you want to just get rid of him so the PLC will perform better or up to adult expectations? Does the scout know he is not doing well? Personally I look at the troop as experience for real life (real life scaled down to a boys size experience). First, I want the scout to make the decision to give him the experience of practicing habits of character. I want the PLC to see me and the SPL give the scout a lot of counseling before the scout makes that decisions so they can learn a method of trying to resolve a difficult situation of accountability. Finally I want the SPL making the announcement at a PLC meeting so that business matters are handled in proper places by the proper people. And I would guide the SPL on how to make that announcement in enough detail that the troop moves on without further discussion because sometimes more damage is done by not saying anything. Everything about this situation should be a learning experience so that it can be done better the next time in each persons life. Accountability is a very difficult skill to develop for youth and adults. Not just in PORs, but in all behaviors. Holding other people accountable requires a large portion of patience and understanding along coupled with an equal portion of compassion. Barry

There are some Den Chief trainings out there. I would call the DE and ask if your district has one. If not, ask him/her to check the other districts in the council. Our district did not have the training, so we did our own. After the district found out about our training, they ask our trainer to do a district Den Chief training course. It is not really that hard, its more of a review of what the Den Chiefs duties are with the Den Leader so that the Den Chief and Den Leader go into the first meeting as a team. I would say couple hours. I will admit that as a CM I didn''t care for den chiefs, they weren''t trained and they actually increased the work load of den leaders. But, as a SM working with Patrol Leaders, I noticed that scouts with Den Chief experience where had a lot more leadership maturity then the other scouts. So we started including Den Chief as part of our JLT program. But they should be trained or it could be a negetive experience for the Den Leaders. Barry

>> Wow, with a CO of that size, maybe they need to charter two packs? Seriously.

>>Frankly, some of the comments and reactions here leave me with the impression that bad training and disorganized adult-led troops are much more common than good training or effective boy-led troops. So I have to be careful not to burn any bridges.

I''m with lisabob and funscout on this. I support your pack''s decisions Pack212scouter because I''ve been where you are at. We never turned away a scout, but I think we wished we had. I took a personal responsibility to make sure our Den Leaders only had what they could handle because they are the key to success of the pack. Still things don''t always work out and I personally had 17 Webelos that required so much dedicated work that I wouldn''t wish that experience on my enemies. Not that I have enemies. But just as important, I had to ask a few adults to quit their den leader positions for different reasons and that is a horrible job. Looking back on it, we knew they weren''t a safe choice in the first place, but we didn''t have any prier experience with them to say no. This adult gave you a window into his behavior. Is that the person you want to lead your son, or all the other sons of parents in your pack? By the way, talking with upset parents is a way of life for Scoutmasters if you are thinking in that direction. You will develop very good social skills from the experience. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>Why would you lower the expectations?

>>How, then, do you get all the scouts you put into positions to actively fullfill their position. Is it something along the lines of if the scouts don''''t at first fullfill their position they are not put into a new one until the promise to do better?

I''m so sorry. You touched my soul. I''ll pray that God mends your heart.

>>Also if there is additional coaching because of this, why is that bad?>As adults we are suppose to be coaching and allowing our scouts to develope into leaders.>If this only last a few months, then it at least it lasted a few months. It will show the Senior Patrol Leader, Assistant Senior Patrol Leader, and other leaders that they have the power to introduce new guidelines, policies, and important decisions to the troop by going through the Patrol Leader''''s Council and then working with the Troop Committee.

When our troop started getting a little bigger, many of the parents started complaining about kids leaving their cars trashed out. So we started going to a carwash before we got home from campouts so the scouts could clean the cars with their own money to the satisfaction of the driver. After a few months we quick doing that (except for summer camp) because all of a sudden the problem went away. Use this as an opportunity to teach trust, loyalty, courtesy, and kind. Teach the scouts a new habit of behavior to help develop their character. Don''t yell, jump up and down or get angry, just think like a boy and find the right motivation to give the boy a will to change. Good Luck. Barry